Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki downgrade

[Omimi]

also naruto universe referred as dimension by isshiki

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Well this also has showings in the canon anime to have multiple stars in the background

If you mean the image below, then this was a previously inhabited planet Momoshiki/Kinshiki sucked the Chakra off, not something Momoshiki created.

Why would he absorb some from outside his dimension where it is much much harder then let me guess you don't have a reason

It is never stated to be much much harder, and the reason is to get more Chakra.

I guess plants can absorb planet busting energy then no he literally absorbed the solar energy in the form of chakra
I don't think you understand what it says Momoshiki was absorbing the chakra of the star and as a result the life around it would die

No one to my knowledge said that sunlight on Toneri's surface area by itself contains enough energy to planet bust or move the moon. Toneri just uses it as a catalyst to generate more Chakra.

By definition, Chakra is a combination of Physical Energy produced by the cells of the body, and Spirtual Energy produced by the mind. So it is quite the claim to say that stars natively generate or store Chakra.

As previously stated, a more reasonable translations uses 'planet' instead of 'star', with both words sharing the Kanji as it can refer to celestial objects in general.

Yea no. Tobi's eye created a space that can't even be compared to how vast the ones Õtsutsuki create. I don't think it's been confirmed Isshiki created his own dimension yet.

I thought the God tree on Momoshiki's planet was created via Hachibi's chakra and no it's pretty evident he created that dimension and the one that was connected to Boruto's karma.

Isshiki has a dimension connected to his Dojutsu, which seals and summons shrunken objects in a dimension where time doesn't flow:

The jar Naruto was sealed in was also called a dimension, though it is unknown how it was created. Nue and its dimension was something a Root researcher created and has been working on since Danzo was alive.

You are right about the tree being made from the Chakra of the Eight Tails. Momoshiki creating the dimension he BFR'd Naruto to is as evident as Kaguya creating her dimensions, which isn't that evident at all. Don't recall a dimension specifically connected to Boruto's Karma.

I would paste the images if I could but I don't know my way around that.

Well, here is what the subtitles say with description of what is happening:

Toneri [with Byakugan eyeballs appearing on him]: End it... End the world of the Sage of Six Paths! Toneri [creating a golden ball of light]: I will destroy the Sage's world, that has fallen into darkness with the light of justice. [Toneri flies up and his body starts smoking as he is exposed to the sun. More Byakugan eyeballs manifest and Toneri's shape starts distorting] Sakura: What? Shikamaru: His jutsu absorbed the sun's energy... and now, he's exceeded the limits of his chakra. [Naruto jumps to Toneri] Hinata: Naruto! Shikimaru: Don't! It's too dangerous! [Naruto enters Chakra mode, flies to Toneri, and grabs his hand]

This is the scene from the novelization:

“The Rikudou Sennin’s world has fallen into darkness! I will destroy it with the light of justice!” The moment Naruto caught his breath, a large shadow appeared overhead. The stone statue that Kurama had thrown came falling down. The giant statue directly hit Toneri. Sent flying, Toneri floated high up into the air. As he gained height, direct rays from the sun, which had been hidden by Earth’s shadow, illuminated Toneri. The Byakugan that were stuck all over Toneri’s body began to smolder and let off smoke. “His jutsu has absorbed energy from the sun, and overflowed past his chakra capacity limit!” Shikamaru said. Toneri’s entire body was being consumed by the Byakugan. “If this keeps up…” If he continued to stay in the sunlight like this, Toneri would either melt or explode. “Toneri!” Naruto shouted as he jumped up. “Stop, it’s dangerous!” “Naruto-kun!” Naruto clung to Toneri, whose body was still letting off smoke, and dragged him down to a place in Earth’s shadow where the rays wouldn’t hit him.

As seen, it is not stated that the sun itself has Chakra or that Toneri is directly absorbing Chakra from the sun. His Puppet Reincarnation Jutsu can absorb energy from sunlight, causing him to produce Chakra that exceeds his capacity and become unstable.

I don't see how that's possible.

Supposedly the abandoned god tree would slowly and passively create a Chakra fruit after a millennium since the planet still had life.

 

[theultimate5105]

If you mean the image below, then this was a previously inhabited planet Momoshiki/Kinshiki sucked the Chakra off, not something Momoshiki created.

Not the planet I am talking about when Boruto kills him you can see small white dots in the background of space which are obviously stars because we see another star in the dimension

It is never stated to be much much harder, and the reason is to get more Chakra.

Transporting stuff to alternate dimensions in naruto is super hard
-Sasuke Can easily create a moon yet dimensional travel drains him
-Kaguya can create the ETSB yet Dimensional travel drains her

No one to my knowledge said that sunlight on Toneri's surface area by itself contains enough energy to planet bust or move the moon. Toneri just uses it as a catalyst to generate more Chakra.

By definition, Chakra is a combination of Physical Energy produced by the cells of the body, and Spirtual Energy produced by the mind. So it is quite the claim to say that stars natively generate or store Chakra.

As previously stated, a more reasonable translations uses 'planet' instead of 'star', with both words sharing the Kanji as it can refer to celestial objects in general.

First of all you are saying Toneris surface area for sunlight amped him by a massive amount no that is wrong he absorbed chakra from the sun directly which is stated nowhere does it state sunlight
and Again your going against the official translation that has logical reasoning
Heck it even said afterward it was beyond scrambling for the bijuus which are major parts of a planets chakra

Isshiki has a dimension connected to his Dojutsu, which seals and summons shrunken objects in a dimension where time doesn't flow:

The jar Naruto was sealed in was also called a dimension, though it is unknown how it was created. Nue and its dimension was something a Root researcher created and has been working on since Danzo was alive.

You are right about the tree being made from the Chakra of the Eight Tails. Momoshiki creating the dimension he BFR'd Naruto to is as evident as Kaguya creating her dimensions, which isn't that evident at all. Don't recall a dimension specifically connected to Boruto's Karma.



Well, here is what the subtitles say with description of what is happening:

Toneri [with Byakugan eyeballs appearing on him]: End it... End the world of the Sage of Six Paths! Toneri [creating a golden ball of light]: I will destroy the Sage's world, that has fallen into darkness with the light of justice. [Toneri flies up and his body starts smoking as he is exposed to the sun. More Byakugan eyeballs manifest and Toneri's shape starts distorting] Sakura: What? Shikamaru: His jutsu absorbed the sun's energy... and now, he's exceeded the limits of his chakra. [Naruto jumps to Toneri] Hinata: Naruto! Shikimaru: Don't! It's too dangerous! [Naruto enters Chakra mode, flies to Toneri, and grabs his hand]

This is the scene from the novelization:

 

[Baubawang11]

Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki are rated as 5C and FTL, but I believe both haven’t displayed anything close to that. The justifications made are also not solid, with multiple scaling inconsistencies by them being that strong and that fast.

Kinshiki:

1. Fought and matched Sasuke Uchiha (from his page)

• Fighting Sasuke isn't enough justification for him to be 5C especially due to his performance against the kage as well as his later performance against Sasuke in the chunin exams (discussed below).
• All kinshiki did was match him while Sasuke parried. At no point was Sasuke shown to be struggling or hurt and at no point did he feel the need to use his jutsu (chidori, fire style etc) or susanoo.

2. Took hits from Sasuke (from his page)

• Sasuke cuts Kinshiki's horn
• Kinshiki survived Sasuke's chidori in their final battle, however its clear that they wanted to capture Kinshiki instead of killling him, Otherwise they would have killed him here. Naruto and Sasuke have both shown to weaken their attacks if they want intel e.g Shin and delta.

Anti feats

1. While Kinshiki matched Sasuke when he was introduced, in their rematch Sasuke was casually evading Kinshiki’s strikes. This was done without his sharingan being active while also carrying Sarada. (This scene was extended in the anime).

2. Chojuro was able to parry and dodge his attacks and the only reason Chojuro got cut was because he was backed into the root of the god tree and didn't have the room to evade. (Extended in the anime)

3. Chojuro later went on to pearce Kinshiki. If Kinshiki was truly 5C and FTL he would have easily been able to blitz and slice through Chojuro, who’s 7A and MHS+ (scaled off Gaara and Darui’s pages)

4. Kurotsuchi was able to send kinshiki flying. He was also not fast enough to evade her despite kinshiki being rated FTL while kurotsuki is MHS+ (scaling off Darui and Gaara).

5. Kurotsuchi later went off to restrain Kinshiki with her jutsu and he only broke free because Momoshiki forced him out and turned him into a fruit .

6.Kinshiki was stopped mid swing by Shikamaru’s shadow possession and was unable to move.

Proposed rating

AP: 6C (stronger than the 7A kage and shouldn't be different from his durability)
Durability: 6C (no sold Hachibi’s bijuu dama that was enhanced 2x)
Speed: MHS+ (kept up with the kages)

Base Momoshiki

1. Broke through Six Paths Kurama Mode Naruto's shield, knocking him unconscious in the process (from his page)

• Momoshiki has an ability to absorb jutsu, multiply its power and send it back, so being able to break Naruto's shield and knock him unconscious doesn't matter since Momoshiki, on his own, can't replicate those jutsu as they don't belong to him.
• Knocking Naruto unconscious shouldn't even matter as Naruto knocked himself out by exhausting himself trying to contain a bijudama, from blowing up konoha, inside of a small stadium sized space.
• There is also a statement from Sasuke stating that Naruto's bijuu dama can easily blow Momoshiki's away, so unless Naruto’s bijuudama is massively superior to his durability, it makes no sense to why its justification for 5C Momoshiki.

2. Stated he will punish Kaguya

• Base Momoshiki stated he will punish Kaguya, implying he was stronger than her, however this doesn't matter since Momoshiki only knew Kaguya before she came to Earth, ate a shinju fruit and merged with the shijuu tree, so he only knew ‘base’ Kaguya and not Prime kaguya.

3. Scaling from kinshiki

• Already debunked

Anti feats

1. Darui was able to keep up with momoshiki and fight him (Darui is MHS+) while all Momoshiki could do was dodge and parry instead of using his apparent 5C jutsu that can break Kurama Mode’s shield. He was also running away.

2. Gaara's sand was faster than Momoshiki in the anime (sand is MHS+)

3. Restrained by Shikamaru's shadow and had to absorb it to escape.

• He was completely restrained btw (backed up also by kinshiki, a close equal to Momoshiki, being stopped mid swing) before an argument is made that he only absorbed the shadow so he could have another jutsu.

Proposed rating
AP: 6C (restrained Hachibi) stronger with jutsu absorption (can increase the power of his absorbed jutsu and break through Six Paths Kurama Mode Naruto's shield)
Durability: 6C (no sold Hachibi’s bijuu dama that was enhanced two fold)
Speed: MHS+ (kept up with the kages)

disagree, because toneri is the benchmark, considering that sasuke is equal to Naruto's sixpath, making kinshiki actually superior to toneri who only fought kcm naruto in the last, kage new era is Moon level with REL (faster than base naruto)

 

[Baubawang11]

It seems more reasonable to me that Momoshiki and Kinshiki could be weaker than we think they are, than every Kage randomly became Sage of Six Paths level over time.

dissagree, because toneri is the benchmark, considering that sasuke is equal to Naruto's sixpath, making kinshiki actually superior to toneri who only fought kcm naruto in the last, kage new era is Moon level with REL (faster than base naruto)

 

[Baubawang11]

Just giving an example.

If this was any other tier jump I would tend to agree with this sentiment, but as we've seen, no amount of training puts someone at god tier. Do you disagree that Might Guy trains the hardest? Boruto makes this even more clear, where they've now introduced ninja tech as a way to becoming 5C instead of 'training'

The new gen > old gen is just a statement. Multiple examples of new gen that don't surpass the old gen.

Yes all these reasons I have brought up. Shikamaru is currently rated as 7C and my proposal would make him at least 6C due to restraining my proposed versions of the Otsutsuki, the 7A kage and the unknown tier base Naruto.



Why would the kage be the outliers? when there are more lower end feats for the duo than the upper ends.

High end Kinshiki
Fought Sasuke (Sasuke was unhurt and he cut Kinshiki's horn off)
Survived Chidori

Low end Kinshiki
Sasuke evaded his attacks without his shringan active while carrying Sarada
Chojuro evaded his attacks
Chojuro pierced him
Kuro surprised and tagged him
kuro sent him flying (Kinshiki was unhurt)
Kuro sealed him (only broke out because of Momoshiki)
Shikamaru restrained him

High end Momoshiki( without absorption)
Shiju fruit Kaguya was afraid of him (not prime)

Low end Momoshiki
Running away from Darui and Gaara
Couldn't kill Darui when he closed the distance and only parried
Restrained by Shikamaru
Shinju fruit kaguya though an army of white zetsu could fight the duo
Gaara's sand was faster (anime)

Where is the possibility of Sakura being an outlier to 5C Shin Uchiha? or better yet 5C Sakura, going by the reasoning provided by some who disagree with the downgrade. Time has passed, Sakura has trained and older Sakura does not need to scale to teen Sakura thereby not having anti feats.

Sakura should be Moon level scale to naruto and sasuke in databook the last movie and sakura even beat shin

 

[Arkenis]

Sakura should be Moon level scale to naruto and sasuke in databook the last movie and sakura even beat shin

bro its been three months since this got activity, I doubt this'll go anywhere.

 

[RisingIons]

Should this be closed or what

 

[theultimate5105]

Huge Necro lol should be closed

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, this is a huge necro. I'll close this.