Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki downgrade

[KingTempest]

Konohamaru trained for 15 years and he's only Jugo level.

Is there a certain way to train where you can get a million times stronger? I wanna know

 

[LordTracer]

Madara said that Hashirama's wood clones are fodders compared to the actual body. So it is a bold claim to scale Gaara to Madara through one of two dozens of his clones, let alone scale Gaara above the Perfect Sussano.

Please provide the quote where Madara said this, because it’s actually stated that wood clones are so similar to the original that only Madara can tell the difference. And I literally never attempted to scale Gaara to the Perfect Susano’o, so I dunno where the hell you got that from.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

a 6-C character would be a non Issue to two 5-C characters.
even if Momo and Kinshiki don't directly scale to Sasuke and Naruto they are comparable enough to not get turned into paste.

and Using the kage as the basis for your anti feats doesn't work when those characters have literally no Anti feats, the only reason we argue that the Kage's stuff doesn't count or are Outliers for them is that people are uncomfortable with the idea that The Five kage could reach Rikudo like power levels. that's literally it. Power escalation is a thing and Boruto has constantly demonstrated that it doesnt care what you think should be unreachable levels.

 

[Galvino]

There are multiple indications that Adult Naruto and Sasuke are significantly weaker than their teenage peak, but you don't need to subscribe to this view to downgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki.

Like when Naruto and Sasuke, who were nerfed, manhandled fused momoshiki who is above Kaguya? Kaguya herself prepared an entire army, after eating the chakra fruit, because she knew she couldn't take down Momoshiki and his boys by herself, let alone fused Momoshiki who Naruto and Sasuke beat up.

Sarada said that Boro isn't that fast, and Boro's durability isn't something to write home about either. That Boro is considered more powerful than Delta, and that Isshiki unironicly thought that Boro poses a threat to Naruto/Sasuke, just because he has regeneration and uses paralysis gas, is either Isshiki being dumb or an anti-feat for Naruto/Sasuke.

Scaling Boro wasn't my point, it was just to show how characters like Sarada and Mitsuki could support Boruto and Kawaki in a fight where the enemy is much stronger than they are, yet they were useful. Like how the kage were useful in the fight against Kinshiki and Momoshiki.

 

[Galvino]

I'm sorry if you felt a bit slighted by my post. But to me, it seems that you've said that Boro>Delta (5-C), and team 7 + Kawaki beat boro, therefore the combined of them was 5-C+. If I misinterpreted what you said, then I apologise.

What I said might be headcanon but it is also common sense.

It's fine, I wasn't clear with what I was saying I admit. All I'm saying is (and this maybe headcanon) is that if sasuke wasn't there, the kage would have most likely lost to Kinshiki. Idk the exact the numbers or tiers or whatever, not that it matters anyway, but the kage scale just enough for them to support Sasuke, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Galvino]

Konohamaru trained for 15 years and he's only Jugo level.

Is there a certain way to train where you can get a million times stronger? I wanna know

Power escalation is a thing and Boruto has constantly demonstrated that it doesnt care what you think should be unreachable levels.

Shadow said it best. Kakashi did the same thing in the war arc by getting stronger and faster for no reason. Sakura, who is much weaker than Naruto and Sasuke obviously, punched Kaguya and it actually did something. Now I'm NOT saying Sakura scales to Kaguya for god's sake, but my point is that much weaker characters can be useful in a fight by supporting characters who are much stronger than them. It's not an anti-feat for Kaguya just like how the kage being useful isn't an anti-feat for Momoshiki and Kinshiki.

 

[KingTempest]

Shadow said it best. Kakashi did the same thing in the war arc by getting stronger and faster for no reason. Sakura, who is much weaker than Naruto and Sasuke obviously, punched Kaguya and it actually did something. Now I'm NOT saying Sakura scales to Kaguya for god's sake, but my point is that much weaker characters can be useful in a fight by supporting characters who are much stronger than them. It's not an anti-feat for Kaguya just like how the kage being useful isn't an anti-feat for Momoshiki and Kinshiki.

The issue is that they weren't supports. They were lead fighters. Gaara and Darui could fight Momoshiki even without Naruto there. Sasuke wasn't even needed, they could deal damage easily via the feats in the OP.

I understand getting stronger and faster, I agree with you, but to get to the point where you go from being a mid-tier to a high-tier when everybody else around you doesn't show those same capabilities is an issue. Everyone should've been able to get to that strength level then. Heck, Sakura should've went to go fight Momo in that case.

Konohamaru is ≥ his team who could support fight Boro. Jugo ≥ Konohamaru and Suigetsu = Jugo. They didn't even show that they trained for the past 15 years, they were just existing. Are we gonna say that Taka/Hebi, who struggled against Ay4, can now support fighting 5-C characters without any boost? Idk about that.

 

[LordTracer]

Heck, Sakura should've went to go fight Momo in that case.

Okay but Sakura is stated to be a suitable replacement for Naruto as Hokage, Sasuke said she wasn’t weak and she harmed Shin, who tanked a Great Fireball from Sasuke UwU

 

[KingTempest]

Okay but Sakura is stated to be a suitable replacement for Naruto as Hokage, Sasuke said she wasn’t weak and she harmed Shin, who tanked a Great Fireball from Sasuke UwU

Stop debunking me

 

[LordTracer]

Stop debunking me

You mentioned queen Sakura, I had no choice

 

[KingTempest]

You mentioned queen Sakura, I had no choice

Fair game

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Please provide the quote where Madara said this, because it’s actually stated that wood clones are so similar to the original that only Madara can tell the difference. And I literally never attempted to scale Gaara to the Perfect Susano’o, so I dunno where the hell you got that from.

Being difficult to detect is not the same as having the same power.

Forgot to paste it in the origina post, but here you go:

Perfect Sussano is Continent level. Your argument is that since he blocked a Sussano attack from a fodder clone, there is no issue for Gaara to reach Moon level and thus be capable of fodderizing the Perfect Sussano with some training.

a 6-C character would be a non Issue to two 5-C characters.
even if Momo and Kinshiki don't directly scale to Sasuke and Naruto they are comparable enough to not get turned into paste.

and Using the kage as the basis for your anti feats doesn't work when those characters have literally no Anti feats, the only reason we argue that the Kage's stuff doesn't count or are Outliers for them is that people are uncomfortable with the idea that The Five kage could reach Rikudo like power levels. that's literally it. Power escalation is a thing and Boruto has constantly demonstrated that it doesnt care what you think should be unreachable levels.

Even if Naruto/Sasuke are 5-C, they 'had low Chakra', which is something Boruto established multiple times to significantly nerf Sasuke in particular.

Hashirama and Madara are much more qualified to reach Rikudo like power levels while alive; why didn't they, or anyone before them in Shinobi history, reach a 1/1000th of this power?
Shippuden power escalation affected the entire cast, are you proposing something similar for Boruto?

Like when Naruto and Sasuke, who were nerfed, manhandled fused momoshiki who is above Kaguya? Kaguya herself prepared an entire army, after eating the chakra fruit, because she knew she couldn't take down Momoshiki and his boys by herself, let alone fused Momoshiki who Naruto and Sasuke beat up.

The premise of the post is against the claim that Momoshiki is above Kaguya. Arguments for this claim has been addressed in this thread.

Scaling Boro wasn't my point, it was just to show how characters like Sarada and Mitsuki could support Boruto and Kawaki in a fight where the enemy is much stronger than they are, yet they were useful. Like how the kage were useful in the fight against Kinshiki and Momoshiki.

We can reasonably assume that a tag team is a x2 Multplier. Not a multplier of several billions.

 

[LordTracer]

Forgot to paste it in the origina post, but here you go:

Madara literally stated that it’s because Hashirama was concentrating too much power in his main body, and there is no evidence of Madara doing the same thing while he fought the Five Kage. So no, there is no evidence of Madara’s Wood clones being inherently weaker than the original.

Perfect Sussano is Continent level. Your argument is that since he blocked a Sussano attack from a fodder clone, there is no issue for Gaara to reach Moon level and thus be capable of fodderizing the Perfect Sussano with some training.

I literally never said any of this, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t claim I said something that I didn’t. I said that the claim of the New Era Five Kage being unable to surpass base Madara is faulty because Gaara fifteen years prior was already able to fight with Madara and block hits from his Susano’o.

I never said the Kage should be Moon level (in fact, I said I wasn’t even going to get into that mess) and I never scaled Gaara to the Perfect Susano’o, thank you very much.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Perfect Sussano is Continent level. Your argument is that since he blocked a Sussano attack from a fodder clone, there is no issue for Gaara to reach Moon level and thus be capable of fodderizing the Perfect Sussano with some training.

His clones here were weak because the real Hashirama was focusing most of his power on maintaining the barrier that was holding the Ten-tails, and was personally restraining him with the Deity Gates. Madara even says it himself in this very quote, that Hashirama is focusing too much power on his real body. This in no way shape or form proves that Wood clones are significantly weaker than the original, when that goes against how clones have always worked, and Wood clones in particular have been stated to be especially durable and hard to differentiate from the original.

Not to mention, Madara killed the clone with the Susano'o, which is obviously significantly above his base physicals, making this feat even more dubious.

 

[Galvino]

The issue is that they weren't supports. They were lead fighters. Gaara and Darui could fight Momoshiki even without Naruto there. Sasuke wasn't even needed, they could deal damage easily via the feats in the OP.

Chojuro piercing Kinshiki doesn't automatically mean Chojuro scales to Kinshiki's tier. Naruto in part 1 one shot Kabuto with a rasengan even though Naruto was much weaker than him, sometimes a jutsu can scale above even the user or caster. As for Kurotsuchi punching Kinshiki away, it didn't really do any damage. Sakura punched Kaguya down towards Naruto and Sasuke but it doesn't mean Sakura scales to her.

I understand getting stronger and faster, I agree with you, but to get to the point where you go from being a mid-tier to a high-tier when everybody else around you doesn't show those same capabilities is an issue. Everyone should've been able to get to that strength level then. Heck, Sakura should've went to go fight Momo in that case.

Sakura was shown to be kage level in the war arc, somewhat scaling to EMS Sasuke and KCM1 Naruto. So it isn't too crazy to say that Sakura got stronger too and would give Momoshiki and Kinshiki the same amount of trouble the kage did, not that giving them trouble would scale Sakura to those two of course. These kage level fighters training for more than a decade to just be useful enough (with Sasuke's help) to seal Kinshiki doesn't mean everybody in the whole verse can get that strong. Basically I'm saying these kage got this strong because they were already strong to begin with.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Shippuden power escalation affected the entire cast, are you proposing something similar for Boruto?

If the characters have feats to do so then sure.

We need to be consistent with our standards, we cant argue shit like we "we cant scale this version of this character because clearly, they are stronger than before" See The Last Naruto thread a few weeks back or Stuff like Tailed beasts in the War not being comparable to their versions earlier in the series while then having no problem with scaling characters back to their older and much weaker versions in an attempt to create Anti feats for the new characters that are narratively meant to be a threat because of the power escalating boogyman.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

His clones here were weak because the real Hashirama was focusing most of his power on maintaining the barrier that was holding the Ten-tails, and was personally restraining him with the Deity Gates. Madara even says it himself in this very quote, that Hashirama is focusing too much power on his real body. This in no way shape or form proves that Wood clones are significantly weaker than the original, when that goes against how clones have always worked, and Wood clones in particular have been stated to be especially durable and hard to differentiate from the original.

Not to mention, Madara killed the clone with the Susano'o, which is obviously significantly above his base physicals, making this feat even more dubious.

Madara literally stated that it’s because Hashirama was concentrating too much power in his main body, and there is no evidence of Madara doing the same thing while he fought the Five Kage. So no, there is no evidence of Madara’s Wood clones being inherently weaker than the original.

I literally never said any of this, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t claim I said something that I didn’t. I said that the claim of the New Era Five Kage being unable to surpass base Madara is faulty because Gaara fifteen years prior was already able to fight with Madara and block hits from his Susano’o.

I never said the Kage should be Moon level and I never scaled Gaara to the Perfect Susano’o, thank you very much.

I am going to assume that you are not arguing that clones are generally nearly as powerful as the original. So I will ask you to prove that Wood Clones are an exception to the rule.

You said that there is no issue with New Era Kage getting strong enough so that Madara would fail to solo them, on the basis that Gaara could fight Maadara fifteen years ago. And that objections to New Era Kage scaling above the Ten Tails, Hashirama's Wood Style, Madara's Perfect Sussano, and Guy's 8th Gate are invalid and based on arguments from increduility.

I never said that you believe Kage should be Moon level, but that there is no issue with the Kage reaching Moon level (to be more specific, reaching a much higher level than PS. But the context is that we are discussing whether the Kage are Moon level). Which I believe is a reasonable interpretation of what you said.

 

[Galvino]

The premise of the post is against the claim that Momoshiki is above Kaguya. Arguments for this claim has been addressed in this thread.

Sounds to me that the enemy was opposed by a couple of Kages, hence Sasuke's hypothesis that this is who Kaguya was preparing for is not sound.

Boruto is canon to Naruto regardless of its format. In fact, an official timeline includes a picture of the movie novelization (top right). The novelization clearly shows that Momoshiki and Kinshiki were struggling/frustrated/stalemated by two Kage-level opponents.

If you're talking about this, like I already addressed, struggling against Kage who got much stronger doesn't mean Kinshiki and Momoshiki are weaker than Kaguya. So yes, Sasuke who fought Kaguya (and thus knows how strong she is more than us) and then fought Kinshiki (who sasuke also know how strong he is more than us) and still thought Momoshiki and Kinshiki (at least combined, whatever) were above Kaguya makes his theory "sound". Not immediately stomping these kage who got stronger isn't an anti-feat. Sasuke thinking Momoshiki and Kinshiki are stronger than Kaguya still makes sense.

 

[LordTracer]

I never said that you believe Kage should be Moon level, but that there is no issue with the Kage reaching Moon level (to be more specific, reaching a much higher level than PS. But the context is that we are discussing whether the Kage are Moon level). Which I believe is a reasonable interpretation of what you said.

It is not a reasonable interpretation at all, that’s you coming up with some nonsense that wasn’t implied in the slightest.

I made it pretty clear in my initial post that I was responding to the claim of base Madara being able to solo the New Era Kage, and that was it. I didn’t say anything about them being Moon level, nor did I even imply that it would be a “reasonable” increase.

The only thing I replied to, and the only thing I cared to reply to was the baseless “haha they can’t be above Madara” claims.

And that objections to New Era Kage scaling above the Ten Tails, Hashirama's Wood Style, Madara's Perfect Sussano, and Guy's 8th Gate are invalid and based on arguments from increduility.

Because they literally are. Saying “I don’t believe they could become this strong” is blatantly an argument from incredulity. I didn’t ever say the Kage actually scale above those things, you’re assuming things that weren’t even implied.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Eh, this was pretty much argued years ago and rejected. We got no new material from that fight since then, and I'm pretty sure the arguments are the same too. I see no reason to accept this.

 

[Omimi]

Uh. wasn't this already kinda brought up before? The Kinshiki vs Kage point at least?

I vaguely remember the kages being used before in attempts to downgrade Kinshiki and Momo and it was agreed on not being viable.

yes it was but its not gonna stop people who have problem with with it lol
unless admin make a rule not to use kage to downgreads momo

Characters get stronger but not to the point that will make the god tiers look like a joke to them (6-A+ vs. 5-C). So no, team 7 + Kawaki isn't 5-C, same with new kages individually. Unless their godly training methods are revealed, we should take it case by case and use common sense to rate their level.

Spoiler

kirilin or fooder from db says hi to bold

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Tracer is completely correct the only argument here is an appeal to incredulity.

Adult Gaara Bonks Edo Madara get over it.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

If the characters have feats to do so then sure.

We need to be consistent with our standards, we cant argue shit like we "we cant scale this version of this character because clearly, they are stronger than before" See The Last Naruto thread a few weeks back or Stuff like Tailed beasts in the War not being comparable to their versions earlier in the series while then having no problem with scaling characters back to their older and much weaker versions in an attempt to create Anti feats for the new characters that are narratively meant to be a threat because of the power escalating boogyman.

The issue is that the New Era Kage contradicts the established power ceiling that can be normally reached by Shinobi. If there was a statement that the New Era Kage have surpassed Hashirama/Madara, there wouldn't be a problem.
But as it stands, a downgrade for Momoshiki/Kinshiki is the most reasonable solution.

It is not a reasonable interpretation at all, that’s you coming up with some nonsense that wasn’t implied in the slightest.

I made it pretty clear in my initial post that I was responding to the claim of base Madara being able to solo the New Era Kage, and that was it. I didn’t say anything about them being Moon level, nor did I even imply that it would be a “reasonable” increase.

The only thing I replied to, and the only thing I cared to reply to was the baseless “haha they can’t be above Madara” claims.

Because they literally are. Saying “I don’t believe they could become this strong” is blatantly an argument from incredulity. I didn’t ever say the Kage actually scale above those things, you’re assuming things that weren’t even implied.

Thank you for repeating my statement that you didn't say that you believe Kage should be Moon level.

You replied to this...

>Fighting someone doesn't mean you are on their level. Common sense should tell you that Gaara or the other kages individually can stomp Ten-tails, Hashirama's Wood Style, Madara's PS and 8th Gates Guy doesn't make sense. >Gaara’s sand was blocking attacks from Madara’s Susano’o and he could hold back the Gedō Mazō. He scales to Madara in the War Arc, that’s not a question. And all I’m seeing is, once again, an argument from incredulity.

Which shapes reader's understanding of the initial post.

By the way, Perfect Sussano is included in base Madara's aresenal (as opposed to Juubi Madara).

If you're talking about this, like I already addressed, struggling against Kage who got much stronger doesn't mean Kinshiki and Momoshiki are weaker than Kaguya. So yes, Sasuke who fought Kaguya (and thus knows how strong she is more than us) and then fought Kinshiki (who sasuke also know how strong he is more than us) and still thought Momoshiki and Kinshiki (at least combined, whatever) were above Kaguya makes his theory "sound". Not immediately stomping these kage who got stronger isn't an anti-feat. Sasuke thinking Momoshiki and Kinshiki are stronger than Kaguya still makes sense.

Any statement as evidence for what you said, besides 'Kaguya was making an army... I think she was preparing for someone stronger than her'?
Perfereably a statement that Momoshiki/Kinshiki are stronger than Kaguya.
As previously mentioned, the statement above is not nearly enough evidence. Kaguya might have been ignorant about their power level, might have been paranoid, might have been cautious, etc.

Tracer is completely correct the only argument here is an appeal to incredulity.

Adult Gaara Bonks Edo Madara get over it.

Feat for Adult Gaara that puts him above Perfect Sussano? And what tier would that feat put Adult Gaara in?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The issue is that the New Era Kage contradicts the established power ceiling that can be normally reached by Shinobi. If there was a statement that the New Era Kage

and part 2 of Naruto obliterates the power ceiling of part 1 Naruto into atoms but you don't see us going around downgrading part 2 characters because of much weaker feats in part 1.

also Feats>statements.

 

[LordTracer]

Which shapes reader's understanding of the initial post.

And what I replied to was factually an argument from incredulity. I didn’t say it was incorrect, I said it wasn’t a proper argument.

By the way, Perfect Sussano is included in base Madara's aresenal (as opposed to Juubi Madara).

Funny how I made it explicitly clear I meant Edo Madara and not the whole ass Perfect Susano’o, but please, keep acting like I meant something different than what I said

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

So this is turning into a Kage upgrade thread to 5-C?

 

[Damage3245]

So this is turning into a Kage upgrade thread to 5-C?

I can't wait for the inevitable "New Era Darui vs. Shippuden Naruto verse" threads.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Because I'm not going to reply to this thread Forever.. I'd like to Clarify my Position.

No, I don't think Gaara and the other Kage are 5-C. The point I'm trying to illustrate is that once you open pandora's box you need to be able to deal with the Consequences. You think the Five Kage scaling to 5-C characters fundamentally breaks the scaling and lore of the Universe and thus shouldn't be Valid? Great that's fine. but then in the same breath, you cant suddenly use those same Non Valid feats as evidence of Anti feats for other characters. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. 6-C characters not getting turned into paste by 5-C characters is just as nonsensical as tier 7 characters jumping to tier 5.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't believe the movie novel is accepted here? Unless i'm mistaken?

The novelization isn't accepted anymore. Its source material has been retconned twice now.

 

[Galvino]

Any statement as evidence for what you said, besides 'Kaguya was making an army... I think she was preparing for someone stronger than her'?
Perfereably a statement that Momoshiki/Kinshiki are stronger than Kaguya.
As previously mentioned, the statement above is not nearly enough evidence. Kaguya might have been ignorant about their power level, might have been paranoid, might have been cautious, etc.

Kaguya was in their clan bro, she knows about their power more than you do, it's nonsensical to think she was ignorant of their power. At this point, it's your job to find evidence that Momoshiki and Kinshiki were weaker than Kaguya. Struggling against kage, who we can say got much stronger, isn't evidence.

 

[KingTempest]

Kaguya was in their clan bro, she knows about their power more than you do, it's nonsensical to think she was ignorant of their power. At this point, it's your job to find evidence that Momoshiki and Kinshiki were weaker than Kaguya. Struggling against kage, who we can say got much stronger, isn't evidence.

This is an hypothesis that was never proven. Stop using this scan

 

[Galvino]

This is an hypothesis that was never proven. Stop using this scan

It isn't contradicted though. If it is, then show me.

But that is just a theory Sasuke had based on some thousand years old scroll (before Kaguya absorbed the Ten Tails and probably before she ate a Chakra Fruit). It is entirely plausible that Kaguya was paranoid and overcautious, and was preparing for stronger Otsutsuki than Kinshiki.

Also about this, Sasuke made his theory after fighting Kinshiki I believe, so idk where the contentiousness is coming from unless you believe Naruto and Sasuke got weaker as they grew up which is weird considering Naruto can still use lava style as if he still has a piece of all the beasts' chakra inside him and as for sasuke, his eye abilities only got amplified as now he can make portals to other dimensions unlike in the fight with Kaguya, so it's more likely than not that Naruto and Sasuke got stronger. I'm not saying this what is what you're saying but hey, if we going this route, there should be a crt downgrading adult naruto and sasuke to 6-C or something. So unless that happens, then idk why Kaguya would be stronger than Momoshiki who said he was gonna punish Kaguya or something like that.

So anyway, for now, Occam's Razor would say, going with the simplest explanation or an explanation with the least amount of assumptions, that at least the team of Momoshiki/Kinshiki > Kaguya since, even after her eating the chakra fruit, she was still scared of them. I'm not gonna go with headcanon and say Kaguya is dumb and is scared for no reason, I'm gonna go with the actual narrative of the story, sounds like the better way to go.

 

[KingTempest]

It isn't contradicted though. If it is, then show me.

Can't prove a negative. Prove his hypothesis came to pass

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

and part 2 of Naruto obliterates the power ceiling of part 1 Naruto into atoms but you don't see us going around downgrading part 2 characters because of much weaker feats in part 1.

also Feats>statements.

Madara and Hashirama represented the power ceiling normally reachable for Shinobi through training and talent since part 1. We just got better feats from almost everyone, including Madara and Hashirama.

Because I'm not going to reply to this thread Forever.. I'd like to Clarify my Position.

No, I don't think Gaara and the other Kage are 5-C. The point I'm trying to illustrate is that once you open pandora's box you need to be able to deal with the Consequences. You think the Five Kage scaling to 5-C characters fundamentally breaks the scaling and lore of the Universe and thus shouldn't be Valid? Great that's fine. but then in the same breath, you cant suddenly use those same Non Valid feats as evidence of Anti feats for other characters. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. 6-C characters not getting turned into paste by 5-C characters is just as nonsensical as tier 7 characters jumping to tier 5.

The main positions appears to be:

• Downgrade the 5-C characters
• Upgrade the non 5-C characters to 5-C

Neither require invalidating what happens during the fight as feats. As mentioned Naruto/Sasuke don't need to be downgraded either, as they have the excuse of being low on Chakra.
Dismissing an entire fight as incoherent is normally a last resort.

Kaguya was in their clan bro, she knows about their power more than you do, it's nonsensical to think she was ignorant of their power. At this point, it's your job to find evidence that Momoshiki and Kinshiki were weaker than Kaguya. Struggling against kage, who we can say got much stronger, isn't evidence.

Otsutsuki get stronger by eating Chakra fruits, and growing trees that drains life out of planets so they can produce more Chakra fruits. Since Otsutsuki might have grown much stronger from eating a bunch of high-quality Chakra fruits, there is no reliable way for her to gauge their powerlevel or how much stronger they've grown since she last saw them.

Also about this, Sasuke made his theory after fighting Kinshiki I believe, so idk where the contentiousness is coming from unless you believe Naruto and Sasuke got weaker as they grew up which is weird considering Naruto can still use lava style as if he still has a piece of all the beasts' chakra inside him and as for sasuke, his eye abilities only got amplified as now he can make portals to other dimensions unlike in the fight with Kaguya, so it's more likely than not that Naruto and Sasuke got stronger. I'm not saying this what is what you're saying but hey, if we going this route, there should be a crt downgrading adult naruto and sasuke to 6-C or something. So unless that happens, then idk why Kaguya would be stronger than Momoshiki who said he was gonna punish Kaguya or something like that.

So anyway, for now, Occam's Razor would say, going with the simplest explanation or an explanation with the least amount of assumptions, that at least the team of Momoshiki/Kinshiki > Kaguya since, even after her eating the chakra fruit, she was still scared of them. I'm not gonna go with headcanon and say Kaguya is dumb and is scared for no reason, I'm gonna go with the actual narrative of the story, sounds like the better way to go.

Naruto/Sasuke being weaker as adults compared to their teen peak is something I believe, but I won't discuss or cite it here as it belongs in an other CRT.
It is sufficient to argue that Naruto/Sasuke were weaker due to being low on Chakra (Naruto got drained for a long time, and Sasuke was using portals), which is something established to significantly weaken characters (Sasuke in particular).

But you will go with headcanon that Kages with no alien Chakra decided to train like hell, and they became able to stomp Hashirama and Madara?
How many Chakra fruits did Kaguya think they ate, and what is the quality of these fruits? Kaguya is not the only Otsutsuki who gets stronger.

 

[Galvino]

Can't prove a negative. Prove his hypothesis came to pass

It's supporting evidence that supports the narrative. Now is there any proof or scans or anything that can prove or imply that Kaguya is stronger than Momoshiki/Kinshiki on the other hand? If not, then why not go with narrative? There aren't any contradictions to the narrative as far as I'm aware other than some people's headcanon.

 

[KingTempest]

It's supporting evidence that supports the narrative. Now is there any proof or scans or anything that can prove or imply that Kaguya is stronger than Momoshiki/Kinshiki on the other hand? If not, then why not go with narrative? There aren't any contradictions to the narrative as far as I'm aware other than some people's headcanon.

We have a standard on this wiki for valid statements and whatnot

Statements

Regarding how to gauge the reliability of statements about characters. The answer depends on the person saying it. Let's make a hypothetical example. "The Green Knight is stated in-universe to be invincible. So far, he has taken every single attack thrown at him on the chin and either picked...

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I don't see this working as one of them

 

[Arkenis]

• All kinshiki did was match him while Sasuke parried. At no point was Sasuke shown to be struggling or hurt and at no point did he feel the need to use his jutsu (chidori, fire style etc) or susanoo.

Sasuke uses lightning style on his sword while fighting Kinshiki and we all know lightning style enhances cutting and still could not cut Kinshiki's weapons. Kinshiki also just knocks sasuke away too and his sharingan and rinnegan are active so he should be getting amped. And to the him not using jutsus, he was stopped during that so couldn't further the fight. There's also the fact that during the second fight with all the kages Sasuke just out right hits him on the back with a chidori and Kinshiki gets right back up from it.

Not sure if anime is different.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

> Madara and Hashirama represented the power ceiling normally reachable for Shinobi through training and talent since part 1. We just got better feats from almost everyone, including Madara and Hashirama.

Nope Hiruzen is clearly portrayed as the ceiling in part 1.

Neither require invalidating what happens during the fight as feats. As mentioned Naruto/Sasuke don't need to be downgraded either, as they have the excuse of being low on Chakra.

They do and the latter argument falls entirely flat on it's ass when looked at any level of Skepticism.
If Naruto and Sasuke are low enough on Chakra to not hurt a 6-C then why do they literally have enough chakra to fight Fused Momoshiki and then for Naruto to Obliterate him with his rasengan right afterwards.

This doesn't solve our problem it merely splits it into two.

Either Kinshiki and Momoshiki gets pasted or Naruto and Sasuke get pasted by Fused Momoshiki.

 

[DuDE01010]

They aren't 5-C out of nowhere if there are statements that suggest that the Kages have trained. I've also proved why it's only their speed and ninjutsu AP that scale that high. It would be on you to prove that the New Era Kages have anti-feats that prevents them from being on those levels. I've already proved it in one of my previous arguments on why their ninjutsu AP and speed being that high is consistent.

• Statements for their training?
• Training isn't accurate enough to be used for a 7A to become 5C, when that is shown in verse to not work (Might Guy) and therefore have turn to cybernetics to be on that level.
• Please explain how from a logical standpoint, the kage are now, with no powerup, 5C/FTL
• The kages are rated as 7A and MHS+ here, so that is an anti feat in itself. As that rating has not changed and an attempt hasn't been made to upgrade them. Therfore Kinshiki and Momoshiki downgrade because of their performance against the kage

Yet you have Might Guy who had no SOSP powers and nearly killed Juubi Madara. Or the fact that 7th Gate Rock Lee threw a kunai knife faster than Guy and Juubi Madara. Characters can be this fast without SOSP chakra.

• Your attempt to use Guy goes against you. Guy with decades of training + a powerup (gates) which we know to multiply your powers above the kages still couldn't beat Madara, who wasn't even 5C. This in itself proves the pinnacle of what achieved through training still cant beat a 6A character forget a 5C.

No, it wouldn't. Also why?

Already proved that the Kage has speed and ninjutsu are on those level.

Stating they have no antifeats so they are 5C/FTL isn't proof. This argument can be used for any new character otherwise e.g Shin Uchiha.

And just a few seconds after that screenshot you sent, Kinshiki charges at Sasuke again, where Sasuke nearly falls unconscious after dodging Kinshiki's attack, that is clear exhaustion.

I don't recall Sasuke nearly falling over. Got a scan?

Again, that's referring to the Kinshiki who is pinned and injured.

Yes, who they didn't kill.

The negatives don't even exist. I've already explained every anti-feat you brought up.

And I've already explained why it doesn't work.

Yes, they are 7-A, but only physically. Also, Naruto having to use Kurama's chakra only acts as a supporting feat for Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis being that high.

• Proof for when they became 5C/FTL out of nowhere?
• If they are only 7A physically and 5C/FTL in jutsu aand speed, why is that not reflected on their profiles? If the profiles say 7A and MHS+, and no kage upgrades are made, that is their level and the 2 Otsutsuki downgrade.
• Naruto is rated as unknown, so him having to use Kurama's chakra to over power an atleast 6C Shikamaru is a non factor.

So that just means Momoshiki is stronger than Kinshiki.

Momoshiki was also restrained and had to absorb to get out so he's stronger via jutsu absorption.

I know what they are rated, I'm proposing an upgrade for the Kage. Also, what would be the point of downgrading if a separate CRT put Kinshiki and Momoshiki back there anyway?

• Until that reasoning is accepted kages are 7A and MHS+ are a reason for this downgrade
• The pages change all the time, so it doesn't really matter tbh.

Again, look at my Might Guy example. Nothing suggests that you need SOSP chakra to be on those levels.

Explained above and still couldn't beat a 6A.

Powerups are not necessary to prove characters have gotten stronger. They showcased ninjutsu that harmed Kinshiki and there are no anti feats for it, the Kakashi novel has statements of the Kage developing new ninjutsu. Which is exactly what I proposed is that got stronger.

Developing ninjutsu isn't solid enough reasoning for characters, in verse that are treated as regular kage, to hurt god tiers. Boruto created vanishing rasengan and went on to bruise fused Momoshiki, doesn't make him close to 5C. Himawari isn't stronger than Momoshiki via tenketsu.

 

[Galvino]

Madara and Hashirama represented the power ceiling normally reachable for Shinobi through training and talent since part 1. We just got better feats from almost everyone, including Madara and Hashirama.

"Power ceiling", seems like headcanon to me. Pull up the scan that states that you literally can't become stronger than Madara or Hashirama.

Otsutsuki get stronger by eating Chakra fruits, and growing trees that drains life out of planets so they can produce more Chakra fruits. Since Otsutsuki might have grown much stronger from eating a bunch of high-quality Chakra fruits, there is no reliable way for her to gauge their powerlevel or how much stronger they've grown since she last saw them.

Well they can only get stronger, right? It's not like they can get weaker. So Momoshiki/Kinshiki, either stayed the same level or got stronger, either way Kaguya, even after eating the fruit herself, was still scared of them regardless.

Naruto/Sasuke being weaker as adults compared to their teen peak is something I believe, but I won't discuss or cite it here as it belongs in an other CRT.
It is sufficient to argue that Naruto/Sasuke were weaker due to being low on Chakra (Naruto got drained for a long time, and Sasuke was using portals), which is something established to significantly weaken characters (Sasuke in particular).

I also agree that saying Naruto and Sasuke got weaker than their teen selves belongs in another CRT. As for the chakra drain argument, all we can just say is that Naruto and Sasuke nerfed are stronger than fused Momoshiki (which is what we see on screen since they manhandle him anyway) who is stronger than Kaguya. Why can't Naruto and Sasuke simply just be that strong? As for the first Kinshiki fight, again there's no evidence to say that Sasuke was so nerfed that he became 6-C. Sasuke also still had enough chakra to switch places with a statue and then make another portal to escape.

But you will go with headcanon that Kages with no alien Chakra decided to train like hell, and they became able to stomp Hashirama and Madara?

Now I never said that was true or that I agreed. All I'm saying is that it's not impossible for that to happen if a different author is writing a series and decides for characters to be stronger than they should. I know that's not an argument, but what we see on screen is what it is: Kage being relevant enough to seal Kinshiki with Sasuke's help. What I would propose for the kage is something like this I guess: "Attack Potency: Unknown. Kept up with Kinshiki and sealed him with Sasuke Uchiha's help." Unknown should keep people from making threads on if they can beat Madara or something. It's not too big of a deal.