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Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki downgrade

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again there's no evidence to say that Sasuke was so nerfed that he became 6-C. Sasuke also still had enough chakra to switch places with a statue and then make another portal to escape.
Sasuke has some Magical ability to drop his power by the Millions while simultaneously increase it by Millions right afterwards despite taking more Damage.

I call it schrodinger's Sasuke.
 
Your attempt to use Guy goes against you. Guy with decades of training + a powerup (gates) which we know to multiply your powers above the kages still couldn't beat Madara, who wasn't even 5C. This in itself proves the pinnacle of what achieved through training still cant beat a 6A character forget a 5C.
Madara said Guy nearly killed him. That dude would be dead if it wasn't for his regeneration, like half his body was gone.
 
I can't wait for the inevitable "New Era Darui vs. Shippuden Naruto verse" threads.
What I would propose for the kage is something like this I guess: "Attack Potency: Unknown. Kept up with Kinshiki and sealed him with Sasuke Uchiha's help." Unknown should keep people from making threads on if they can beat Madara or something. It's not too big of a deal.
While I'm debating against the OP's proposal, I also don't mind compromising and helping out and being constructive. Maybe my compromise will avoid some annoyances in the future?
 
While I'm debating against the OP's proposal, I also don't mind compromising and helping out and being constructive. Maybe my compromise will avoid some annoyances in the future?
Why not put Momoshiki and Kinshiki as Unknown instead? That'd only be two characters to change instead of four.
 
So why didn't Sasuke just stomp and speedblitz him if Kinshiki is only Island level and MHS+? Their fight looked pretty equal for the most part and Kinshiki launched Sasuke into rocks, how can someone who's 6-C do that against someone who's 5-C?
Same reason why Naruto and Sasuke didn't speed blitz and stomp Shin Uchiha. No story is without PIS.
I'm pretty sure Sasuke was the one carrying the kage for the most part.
Of course. Kages are 7A, my proposed rating for the Otsutsuki are 6C. Of course 5C Sasuke carries the kage.
Having the Kage somewhat scale to Kinshiki isn't far fetched as the new Team 7+Kawaki (With the help of Karma) beat up Boro. Who's stated to be above Delta who even gave Naruto some trouble and the wiki itself considers her 5-C. Having characters get stronger already happened in this verse like when Kakashi somehow got stronger in the war arc.
See this is exactly why the kage 'don't have anti feats so they scale' argument don't work. Now 13 year olds are 5C/FTL because they fought a guy that had no anti feats who has a hype statement. Where is god tier Himawari lol for knocked out Naruto which fused Momoshiki couldn't do?

Its made very obvious that while training makes you stronger, no matter how hard you train it doesn't make you a 5C. Might Guy trains the most and the hardest and couldn't beat a 6A. So any character e.g Kakashi getting stronger doesn't matter since they are not jumping to 5C. Remember that Kakashi literally needed a powerup to become 5C (DMS + six paths + susanoo), something that no amount of training by him could ever match.

It's made very clear if you want to be in the god tier, you either have to get a powerups (SPSM, juubi etc) or enhance your body through ninja tech (Code, new cyborgs)
Because I'm not going to reply to this thread Forever.. I'd like to Clarify my Position.

No, I don't think Gaara and the other Kage are 5-C. The point I'm trying to illustrate is that once you open pandora's box you need to be able to deal with the Consequences. You think the Five Kage scaling to 5-C characters fundamentally breaks the scaling and lore of the Universe and thus shouldn't be Valid? Great that's fine. but then in the same breath, you cant suddenly use those same Non Valid feats as evidence of Anti feats for other characters. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. 6-C characters not getting turned into paste by 5-C characters is just as nonsensical as tier 7 characters jumping to tier 5.
  • Shin Uchiha, a 7A character, didn't get turned into paste by Naruto or Sasuke.
  • Urashiki, an unknown tier character that dies to boruto and kid narutos rasengan, didn't get turned into paste by Sasuke.
  • Boruto, tier 8, didn't get turned into paste by fused Momoshiki.
  • Base Naruto, tier Unknow, didn't get turned into paste by Fused Momoshiki.
  • The kage, tier 7, didnt get turned into paste by fused Momoshiki.
This is just from the top of my head. There exists similar instances in other verses. It's just PIS.

Also I don't understand your reasoning. You agree Gaara and the other kage shouldn't be 5C, but don't agree with the downgrade due to PIS not turning Kinshiki into paste? But isn't that the same logic your using where you admit the kage aren't 5C, yet they haven't been turned into paste by Momoshiki or Kinshiki?
 
Madara said Guy nearly killed him. That dude would be dead if it wasn't for his regeneration, like half his body was gone.
Yes and that Madara was 6A not 5C. This just proves Guy even with all that training still can't kill a 6A.
 
1
  • Shin Uchiha, a 7A character, didn't get turned into paste by Naruto or Sasuke.
  • Urashiki, an unknown tier character that dies to boruto and kid narutos rasengan, didn't get turned into paste by Sasuke.
  • Boruto, tier 8, didn't get turned into paste by fused Momoshiki.
  • Base Naruto, tier Unknow, didn't get turned into paste by Fused Momoshiki.
  • The kage, tier 7, didnt get turned into paste by fused Momoshiki.
This is just from the top of my head. There exists similar instances in other verses. It's just PIS.

Also I don't understand your reasoning. You agree Gaara and the other kage shouldn't be 5C, but don't agree with the downgrade due to PIS not turning Kinshiki into paste? But isn't that the same logic your using where you admit the kage aren't 5C, yet they haven't been turned into paste by Momoshiki or Kinshiki?

1. Shin didn't get turned into paste because we agreed that him surviving at all is PIS. but if it's not feel free to upgrade Shin to 5-C, just goodluck arguing Sasuke is low on Chakra this time.
2. Hence why his Unknown, his Inconsistent, unless you want to argue Kid Naruto is 5-C.
3. Boruto never directly fights Momoshiki and outliers exists for a reason.
4. Hence why his Unknown and not 6-C but your right, naruto survives alot of shit from 5-C characters :). seems CRT worthy

The kage, tier 7, didnt get turned into paste by fused Momoshiki.

Yeah it's almost as if they not 7-A or Outliers exist.

>Also I don't understand your reasoning. You agree Gaara and the other kage shouldn't be 5C, but don't agree with the downgrade due to PIS not turning Kinshiki into paste? But isn't that the same logic your using where you admit the kage aren't 5C, yet they haven't been turned into paste by Momoshiki or Kinshiki?

Once a feat is deemed PIS,CIS or an Outlier they are unusable. you cant use the same feat that has been disregarded as evidence without creating a double standard.

Secondly.

Between the Five Kage and Kinshiki only 1 has fought Sasuke and only 1 is considered a massive threat, take a guess who and ask me who's PIS is more likely.
 
Since the "training" argument has been brought up multiple time.

Its made clear in Naruto/Boruto, to become a 5C you either have to get Powerups (SPSM, Rinnegan, Juubi etc) or get your body enhanced by ninja tech (Code, Ada etc). It's made very clear no matter how hard you train you will never be able to reach the god tier without the above mentioned things.

Might Guy: I'm pretty sure that everyone here can agree that Might Guy is one of the people that trains the most and the hardest and the most likely candidate to ever reach the god tier just by training. Yet even he couldn't achieve this. Might Guy with decades of training and using 8 gates, something that boosts your power above the kages, still couldn't kill a 6A, that's not even a 5C. But now the new gen kage are 5C because time has passed and they've trained and with no display of any powerups or body enhancements?

Training makes you very strong and many characters in Naruto have jumped tiers through it, but it's made clear no amount of training without similar powerups to the ones mentioned above and ninja tech, will let you reach 5C.

Boruto is a new series that is set a decade or so after the Last, but that doesn't mean just because there is a time jump with the older versions of characters not having 'anti feats', characters who were previously tier 7 are now all of a sudden 5C because 'training', a concept that has been shown to be unachievable.
 
This just seems like you think it's too absurd that they scale to really powerful characters cuz you think it's unlikely. It's shown, it's implied they got stronger, it would follow they being the kages would be stronger from fighting these characters. And also imagine making kinshiki and momo unknown even though they have tons of hype from Kaguya, Naruto, Sasuke.
Sasuke uses lightning style on his sword while fighting Kinshiki and we all know lightning style enhances cutting and still could not cut Kinshiki's weapons. Kinshiki also just knocks sasuke away too and his sharingan and rinnegan are active so he should be getting amped. And to the him not using jutsus, he was stopped during that so couldn't further the fight. There's also the fact that during the second fight with all the kages Sasuke just out right hits him on the back with a chidori and Kinshiki gets right back up from it.
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Not sure if anime is different.
Can someone acknowledge this... it's literally kinshiki tanking chidori from sasuke even though op said he didn't.
 
Op's entire argument relies on Bizarre reasoning.

Kinshiki is not 5-C because the Kage are 7-A and the Kage are 7-A because they cant scale to Kinshiki who is 5-C and that doesn't make sense.

and that doesn't make sense because of an appeal to incredulity or that Sasuke was low on chakra. The same Sasuke who was low on Chakra fought the Momoshiki that OP agrees is 5-C.

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There is something I want to point out and i'm not sure if it has been addressed yet (There are a lot of comments) but Momoshiki retains all Jutsu he absorbs. He even told Boruto and co when faced with the Father-Son Rasengan that he could make as many as those as he wanted.

As far as the downgrades go, I disagree completely. Kinshiki is shown being able to consistently match Sasuke in h2h combat. Kishimoto also depicted Base Momoshiki as being able to as well in the movie but that is irrelevant atm. Point is, Base Momoshiki is consistently shown in all mediums to be strong enough to Damage/Press SPSM Naruto with Jutsu and Kinshiki has been shown to Match Sasuke consistently.

These are constants in NV and i'm erroring on the side of consistency here. I agree with others like Shadow as well.
 
Base Momoshiki is consistently shown in all mediums to be strong enough to Damage/Press SPSM Naruto and Kinshiki has been shown to Match Sasuke consistently.
This is a bit weird since like, the manga has stuff like Fused Momo struggling to damaged a drained base Naruto then getting overwhelmed by his Six Paths Mode only to then fight evenly against a Kurama Summoning.

The fight is inconsistent. The anime is better in that regards I guess.
 
This is a bit weird since like, the manga has stuff like Fused Momo struggling to damaged a drained base Naruto then getting overwhelmed by his Six Paths Mode only to then fight evenly against a Kurama Summoning.

The fight is inconsistent. The anime is better in that regards I guess.
Well, I have always said this, to the dismay of others, but SPSM isn't an AP / Strength Boost for Naruto. His Base is just as strong as Sasuke's (Just their Base Speed Isn't Equal) and he uses Six Paths Chakra in Base As Well. People are "just" starting to see what i have always been saying.
 
Well, I have always said this, to the dismay of others, but SPSM isn't an AP / Strength Boost for Naruto.
I mean, it sorta has to be or that scene doesn't make sense as to how he suddenly and easily overwhelmed Momoshiki.

The rest is a topic for a different thread.
 
> Madara and Hashirama represented the power ceiling normally reachable for Shinobi through training and talent since part 1. We just got better feats from almost everyone, including Madara and Hashirama.

Nope Hiruzen is clearly portrayed as the ceiling in part 1.
There seems to be statements that Hiruzen is believed to be the strongest Hokage (thought that was retconned in part 2), though I guess peak Hashirama and his rival would still scale to him, as Hashirama and Tobirama are called the ultimate Shinobi.

They do and the latter argument falls entirely flat on it's ass when looked at any level of Skepticism.
If Naruto and Sasuke are low enough on Chakra to not hurt a 6-C then why do they literally have enough chakra to fight Fused Momoshiki and then for Naruto to Obliterate him with his rasengan right afterwards.

This doesn't solve our problem it merely splits it into two.

Either Kinshiki and Momoshiki gets pasted or Naruto and Sasuke get pasted by Fused Momoshiki.
Don't follow the logic why Fused Momoshiki should paste weakened Naruto and Sasuke. They were hurting a 6-C, and when he fused he got a boost but not enough to the point where Gaara can't block his punch. Just because a 6-C got a power boost doesn't mean that he is suddenly 5-C.

In addition, Naruto and Sasuke were avoiding direct hits with their most powerful Chakra attacks to avoid Momoshiki's absorption ability, and at the end of the day Naruto could barely stand.

"Power ceiling", seems like headcanon to me. Pull up the scan that states that you literally can't become stronger than Madara or Hashirama.
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Well they can only get stronger, right? It's not like they can get weaker. So Momoshiki/Kinshiki, either stayed the same level or got stronger, either way Kaguya, even after eating the fruit herself, was still scared of them regardless.
And it is apparent that the level they reached is 6-C at best. But Kaguya didn't know that.

I also agree that saying Naruto and Sasuke got weaker than their teen selves belongs in another CRT. As for the chakra drain argument, all we can just say is that Naruto and Sasuke nerfed are stronger than fused Momoshiki (which is what we see on screen since they manhandle him anyway) who is stronger than Kaguya. Why can't Naruto and Sasuke simply just be that strong? As for the first Kinshiki fight, again there's no evidence to say that Sasuke was so nerfed that he became 6-C. Sasuke also still had enough chakra to switch places with a statue and then make another portal to escape.
Who says Fused Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya?
Do I really need to remind you of Sasuke vs Shin or the time-travel arc, to illustrate low-Chakra nerfs?

Now I never said that was true or that I agreed. All I'm saying is that it's not impossible for that to happen if a different author is writing a series and decides for characters to be stronger than they should. I know that's not an argument, but what we see on screen is what it is: Kage being relevant enough to seal Kinshiki with Sasuke's help. What I would propose for the kage is something like this I guess: "Attack Potency: Unknown. Kept up with Kinshiki and sealed him with Sasuke Uchiha's help." Unknown should keep people from making threads on if they can beat Madara or something. It's not too big of a deal.
That is a headcanon as well, as there is no statement about the potential of Hashirama/Madara being surpassed by the non-Naruto New Era Kages.
Speed: Unknown (Kept up with FTL Momoshiki/Kinshiki)
Why Unknown when we know they scale?

Op's entire argument relies on Bizarre reasoning.

Kinshiki is not 5-C because the Kage are 7-A and the Kage are 7-A because they cant scale to Kinshiki who is 5-C and that doesn't make sense.

and that doesn't make sense because of an appeal to incredulity or that Sasuke was low on chakra. The same Sasuke who was low on Chakra fought the Momoshiki that OP agrees is 5-C.

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Maybe try to address a steelman version.
Such as Fused Momoshiki not being 5-C.
 
This is a bit weird since like, the manga has stuff like Fused Momo struggling to damaged a drained base Naruto then getting overwhelmed by his Six Paths Mode only to then fight evenly against a Kurama Summoning.

The fight is inconsistent. The anime is better in that regards I guess.

The fight does appear to be inconsistent but we could put this down as:

1) Fused Momoshiki is not significantly stronger than base Naruto, so him struggling to damage him makes sense.

2) Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto is portrayed as clearly superior to Fused Momoshiki, so this bit makes sense.

3) Momoshiki summons / creates a monster to fight on his behalf which overwhelms Kurama Avatar. So not Fused Momoshiki himself, but just a specific technique he has. Of course he still gets stomped by Kurama Avatar + Susano'o.

So taking all this into account, I would be okay with revising base Momoshiki so he isn't scaling to Naruto.
 
On a second thought, I can agree with Momoshiki being physically Unknown and 5-C+ with Ninjutsu, because of his feats with it. Can't agree with Kinshiki scaling to 6-C or whatever.
 
On a second thought, I can agree with Momoshiki being physically Unknown and 5-C+ with Ninjutsu, because of his feats with it. Can't agree with Kinshiki scaling to 6-C or whatever.
For Momoshiki, what about something like this?:

Unknown physically, Varies with Ninjutsu (Absorbs his opponent's Ninjutsu and returns it back with increased force), up to Moon level+ (Broke through Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto's Kurama Avatar with reflected Ninjutsu, knocking him unconscious in the process.)
 
There seems to be statements that Hiruzen is believed to be the strongest Hokage (thought that was retconned in part 2), though I guess peak Hashirama and his rival would still scale to him, as Hashirama and Tobirama are called the ultimate Shinobi.
It was Retconned by the fact that Hashi and Tobirama show much much better feats hence destroying the "standard"

Maybe try to address a steelman version.
Such as Fused Momoshiki not being 5-C.


Provide me evidence that Fused Momoshiki isn't 5-C.

1. Gaara catching Momoshiki's fist isnt an AP feat it's a speed feat as his literally overwhelmed seconds later.
2. Provide me evidence that Naruto and Sasuke's AP dropped from 5-C to 6-C that doesn't rely on the assumption that other characters are 6-C like Kinshiki.
3.Provide me Evidence that Naruto and Sasuke can create Kurama Avatars and Susanoo constructions in their six paths modes that are 6-C as opposed to not being able to do those things at all with low chakra.
4. Provide Evidence that Sasuke and Naruto were low on chakra to the point of being 6-C as opposed to just not being at their best.
 
In response to the scan:
1. Kabuto thought he gave Madara most of his power or that he amped by a lot but Madara denied it and claimed that he gained this power himself. So he's not omniscience or something, so not everything he says is automatically proof.
2. All Kabuto says is that no one at moment is as strong as Madara and Hashirama, doesn't mean anything. Just because nobody trained hard enough to reach their level at that point in the story, doesn't mean it can't ever happen later.
And it is apparent that the level they reached is 6-C at best. But Kaguya didn't know that.
Apparent? How? They kept up with Naruto and Sasuke and didn't get stomped.
Who says Fused Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya?
Only the narrative itself, pretty important. Cause, since I'm gonna repeat myself, Kaguya was scared of them and knew she couldn't fight them alone. Plus I believe Naruto and Sasuke got stronger later on anyway and Momoshiki not getting stomped would make it hard to believe Kaguya is stronger than him. Again if you wanna downgrade Naruto and Sasuke, go do that first before using the argument that they got weaker and thus making Momoshiki look weaker.
Do I really need to remind you of Sasuke vs Shin or the time-travel arc, to illustrate low-Chakra nerfs?
I think someone else already addressed that.
That is a headcanon as well, as there is no statement about the potential of Hashirama/Madara being surpassed by the non-Naruto New Era Kages.
Speed: Unknown (Kept up with FTL Momoshiki/Kinshiki)
Why Unknown when we know they scale?
Listen, all I'm saying is the kage should at least be unknown. Also, I never commented on speed, I was talking about AP. Maybe that's unknown too, idk.
 
1


1. Shin didn't get turned into paste because we agreed that him surviving at all is PIS. but if it's not feel free to upgrade Shin to 5-C, just goodluck arguing Sasuke is low on Chakra this time.
Neither did the kages, which you've agreed are not 5C. Kinshiki and Momoshiki fighting Sasuke means nothing when there's more evidence for that being PIS, as shown by their performance against the kage and Shikamaru.
2. Hence why his Unknown, his Inconsistent, unless you want to argue Kid Naruto is 5-C.
And that logic applies to this as well lol. The Otsutsuki fights Sasuke one minute and then gets halted by Shikamaru while the kage perform well against them despite them being multiple tiers below the duo's current given level.
3. Boruto never directly fights Momoshiki and outliers exists for a reason.
  • Boruto bruises Momoshiki twice and even pushed his hand away
  • And by outliers do you mean like Kinshiki fighting Sasuke? It seems to me that your very selective on what outliers are.
4. Hence why his Unknown and not 6-C but your right, naruto survives alot of shit from 5-C characters :). seems CRT worthy
Yup it is definitely CRT worthy as 2 characters are rated as 5C and FTL, when based off everything, can be downgraded to 6C/unknown (looking at other comments) and MHS+.
Yeah it's almost as if they not 7-A or Outliers exist.
So outliers like Kinshiki fighting Sasuke and not getting pasted by him? I agree.
>Also I don't understand your reasoning. You agree Gaara and the other kage shouldn't be 5C, but don't agree with the downgrade due to PIS not turning Kinshiki into paste? But isn't that the same logic your using where you admit the kage aren't 5C, yet they haven't been turned into paste by Momoshiki or Kinshiki?

Once a feat is deemed PIS,CIS or an Outlier they are unusable. you cant use the same feat that has been disregarded as evidence without creating a double standard.
And what makes the Sasuke fight not the outlier as Momoshiki and Kinshiki have more consistent lower ends than 5C/FTL?
Secondly.

Between the Five Kage and Kinshiki only 1 has fought Sasuke and only 1 is considered a massive threat, take a guess who and ask me who's PIS is more likely.
Being considered a treat doesn't justify a 5C/FTL rating when feats show otherwise. Being considered a threat also ignores context, as the duo are a treat due to what they can do to the planet and it's people, as in capture tailed beats, turn them into trees and absorb the life of the planet and its people, leaving it a barren wasteland. Of course they are a threat.

Many people in the real world are considered massive threats to the planet because of what they can do through their tools or influence. It doesn't mean they can 1v1 a tank.

If you mean a threat as to Kaguya. Context is import here. Post fruit Kaguya (not prime Kaguya) considered them a threat and to combat them she created zetsus. I don't think I need to remind you how weak bricks the whIte zetsu are do I?
Op's entire argument relies on Bizarre reasoning.

Kinshiki is not 5-C because the Kage are 7-A and the Kage are 7-A because they cant scale to Kinshiki who is 5-C and that doesn't make sense.

and that doesn't make sense because of an appeal to incredulity or that Sasuke was low on chakra. The same Sasuke who was low on Chakra fought the Momoshiki that OP agrees is 5-C.
No offense but your argument is more bizarre.

You agree that kage are not 5C, but then think its ridiculous for Kinshiki to be 6C and not get pasted by Sasuke, despite the same thing not happening to the kages (you completely ignored Shikamaru too btw). And then claims Shin is an outlier despite hurting Naruto and Sasuke and not being pasted by them and turns around and states 5C Kinshiki is not, despite the same logic applying backed up by not 5C Kage and Shikamaru (which you've agreed to). Very selective indeed.
 
It was Retconned by the fact that Hashi and Tobirama show much much better feats hence destroying the "standard"
Retconned by statements of superiority, not just feats.

Provide me evidence that Fused Momoshiki isn't 5-C.

1. Gaara catching Momoshiki's fist isnt an AP feat it's a speed feat as his literally overwhelmed seconds later.
2. Provide me evidence that Naruto and Sasuke's AP dropped from 5-C to 6-C that doesn't rely on the assumption that other characters are 6-C like Kinshiki.
3.Provide me Evidence that Naruto and Sasuke can create Kurama Avatars and Susanoo constructions in their six paths modes that are 6-C as opposed to not being able to do those things at all with low chakra.
4. Provide Evidence that Sasuke and Naruto were low on chakra to the point of being 6-C as opposed to just not being at their best.
1. He was taken by surprise from Momoshiki's follow-up Hair Manipulation attack, but he successfully blocked Momoshiki's fist without being overwhelmed. He then survived a direct kick without turning into paste.
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2. & 3. & 4.
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Can you provide evidence that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are 5-C that doesn't rely on the assumption that other characters are 5-C?
 
2. All Kabuto says is that no one at moment is as strong as Madara and Hashirama, doesn't mean anything. Just because nobody trained hard enough to reach their level at that point in the story, doesn't mean it can't ever happen later.
Not just no one reached his level, no one came close to reaching his level so much that his power level is considered a myth.
What kind of training did the New Era Kage do that multiple generations of Shinobi and Kage fell short on? This warrants an explanation.

Apparent? How? They kept up with Naruto and Sasuke and didn't get stomped.
A Naruto who got drained, and a Sasuke who have been dimension traveling and is pushing the limits of his portals.
 
For Momoshiki, what about something like this?:

Unknown physically, Varies with Ninjutsu (Absorbs his opponent's Ninjutsu and returns it back with increased force), up to Moon level+ (Broke through Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto's Kurama Avatar with reflected Ninjutsu, knocking him unconscious in the process.)
I can agree with this compromise but i'd like to note that this makes it very lenient for characters to go up many tiers just by making an argument that:

Time passed -> X Character after time skip doesn't need to scale to their younger character -> they therefore have no anti feats and can scale to Y character despite not making sense in the power structure of the verse.

E.g Sarada and team retrieve Kawaki -> short amount of time passes where they train -> Sarada fights and hurts Boro (who has 5C statements) and she is therefore close to his level because her time skip form has no anti feats.

But that's just my opinion and as I said, I agree with with your rating. Do you have an opinion regarding their speed or Kinshiki's level?
 
E.g Sarada and team retrieve Kawaki -> short amount of time passes where they train -> Sarada fights and hurts Boro (who has 5C statements) and she is therefore close to his level because her time skip form has no anti feats.
Boro shouldn't be 5-C but that's just a personal opinion.

Time passed -> X Character after time skip doesn't need to scale to their younger character -> they therefore have no anti feats and can scale to Y character despite not making sense in the power structure of the verse.
I think the fact that they all became kages would suggest they got strong to the point where even the past kages were below them in boruto. This would follow the narrative that the new generations surpass or get stronger than the old. That's how I see it really.
Uhh... Shikamaru can also restrain all the kages and base naruto. So really this isn't an anti feat, its a novel. And also considering shikamaru can also restrain momo too.
 
Because I'm not going to reply to this thread Forever.. I'd like to Clarify my Position.

No, I don't think Gaara and the other Kage are 5-C. The point I'm trying to illustrate is that once you open pandora's box you need to be able to deal with the Consequences. You think the Five Kage scaling to 5-C characters fundamentally breaks the scaling and lore of the Universe and thus shouldn't be Valid? Great that's fine. but then in the same breath, you cant suddenly use those same Non Valid feats as evidence of Anti feats for other characters. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. 6-C characters not getting turned into paste by 5-C characters is just as nonsensical as tier 7 characters jumping to tier 5.
This^

And im loving how this thread has failed to consider the other likely possibility that the Kages are the PIS and/or outliers here instead of treating them as anti feats for the Otsutsuki duo.
 
Kages are not only inconsistent in the Momo fight, some of them struggle against fodder, Boruto level characters
 
Boro shouldn't be 5-C but that's just a personal opinion.
Just giving an example.
I think the fact that they all became kages would suggest they got strong to the point where even the past kages were below them in boruto. This would follow the narrative that the new generations surpass or get stronger than the old. That's how I see it really.
If this was any other tier jump I would tend to agree with this sentiment, but as we've seen, no amount of training puts someone at god tier. Do you disagree that Might Guy trains the hardest? Boruto makes this even more clear, where they've now introduced ninja tech as a way to becoming 5C instead of 'training'

The new gen > old gen is just a statement. Multiple examples of new gen that don't surpass the old gen.
Uhh... Shikamaru can also restrain all the kages and base naruto. So really this isn't an anti feat, its a novel. And also considering shikamaru can also restrain momo too.
Yes all these reasons I have brought up. Shikamaru is currently rated as 7C and my proposal would make him at least 6C due to restraining my proposed versions of the Otsutsuki, the 7A kage and the unknown tier base Naruto.


This^

And im loving how this thread has failed to consider the other likely possibility that the Kages are the PIS and/or outliers here instead of treating them as anti feats for the Otsutsuki duo.
Why would the kage be the outliers? when there are more lower end feats for the duo than the upper ends.

High end Kinshiki
Fought Sasuke (Sasuke was unhurt and he cut Kinshiki's horn off)
Survived Chidori

Low end Kinshiki
Sasuke evaded his attacks without his shringan active while carrying Sarada
Chojuro evaded his attacks
Chojuro pierced him
Kuro surprised and tagged him
kuro sent him flying (Kinshiki was unhurt)
Kuro sealed him (only broke out because of Momoshiki)
Shikamaru restrained him

High end Momoshiki( without absorption)
Shiju fruit Kaguya was afraid of him (not prime)

Low end Momoshiki
Running away from Darui and Gaara
Couldn't kill Darui when he closed the distance and only parried
Restrained by Shikamaru
Shinju fruit kaguya though an army of white zetsu could fight the duo
Gaara's sand was faster (anime)

Where is the possibility of Sakura being an outlier to 5C Shin Uchiha? or better yet 5C Sakura, going by the reasoning provided by some who disagree with the downgrade. Time has passed, Sakura has trained and older Sakura does not need to scale to teen Sakura thereby not having anti feats.
 
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