BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[AnonymousBlank]

Like everything you said, weird attempt at a dismissal

Except I addressed everything you typed? And yes it making zero sense to be a pocket dimension is an opinion.

It's not just connected to his mind, again, Isshin verbatim says that you have to put your mind into your Zanpakuto to enter your inner world

So Zanpakuto contain a dimension.

Saying it's only "connected" is you being disingenuous.

Where did I say it’s only connected?

The mind and soul are abstract concepts, even if you want to say "souls" aren't in Bleach because characters can physically interact with them, the mind certainly is.

Oh shit. Everything in Bleach got conceptual soul destroying hax are abstract existences. Let’s goooo!

But on topic, the mind can be abstract all you want, it won’t change the fact that the inner world is spiritual in nature and we know that spiritual things all have a physical presence.

So now you're saying that Ichigo has some passive spatial manipulation, what baseless assumption will you create next so that you don't have to concede?

Are you saying that Ichigo’s inner world doesn’t do what he thinks it does? That it doesn’t follow what he thinks? This is shit he has had since it first showed up but you can’t handle it just because it so happens to be physical?

No, the water is very much relevant, If Ichigo was being teleported somewhere physically then he wouldn't be able to breathe under water, we're directly told that Shinigami can drown, multiple times.

That water functioning like water is as irrelevant as up and down in his inner world. It does what he decided just like gravity.

Now you're saying Ichigo has some weird reality warping/physics alteration, yet another baseless assumption necessary to support your argument.

I am saying what Ichigo does in his inner world.

Ichigo believed he would fall because that's logically what you'd assume when you're brought to a world that's on its side, it was then explained by Zangetsu that the balance of his inner world was unstable before which is why he fell, further illustrating that this isn't some physical dimension.

Old Man never said that at all. He just tells Ichigo to gather the reishi in the atmosphere to check his fall. The very fact that there is reishi there supports it being a physical place.

Ichigo didn't just create gravity by imagining that he was going to fall like your post implies.

He didn’t make it nor did I imply it. I very clearly said that his inner world functions how he believes it should. He wakes up and is sitting on the side of a building with Old Man standing “on” a pole so he thinks he is sitting on a normal surface. It’s only when Old Man points out that he is on the side of a building does Ichigo realise and everything automatically changes to reflect this belief.

Not true at all, it's verbatim said by Zangetsu that as long as Ichigo is accepting of it, he can't be harmed by his blade

Yeah, Ichigo decided he couldn’t be harmed by the blade and he wasn’t. He accepted it, just like he accepted gravity is naturally sideways in his inner world and then it was.

Or Zangetsu can bring people to abstract places with Shadow

So ….. giving new powers? What’s the difference between that and what I said? Besides the fact that what I said is extremely limited in scope and only functions ina specific place whereas yours is that Quincy can just invade a Shinigami’s mental plane whenever they feel like it.

Or Zangetsu just brought Ichigo's consciousness to his inner world and Kubo portrayed it in a way that it appears he was physically bringing him

So rather than go with what we are shown on panel, you would assume author’s intent?

Let's not forget that time appears to halt when Zangetsu does it, so lets not act like he's just doing your run of the mill Shadow and teleporting Ichigo to a different dimension.

And why can’t he have time stop?

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To TLDR your argument, you're saying Ichigo has;

Let’s not leave out the fact that it only applies to his inner world unlike your “Quincies can invade people’s minds

Passive Spatial Manipulation
Some form of Physics Manipulation
Reality Warping, he imagined Zangetsu's blade not harming him in his inner world, so it didn't (apparently), even though it's established that Zanpakuto are literally the persons soul and thus, as long as they accept it, they can't harm themself.

Wow. If only the inner world was part of the person’s soul.

In contrast, my argument doesn't rely on weird baseless assumptions and in fact is all but stated by the manga.

Funny how your solutions involved assuming Shadow Travel can let you invade someone’s abstract mental plane or assuming author’s intent while disregarding what happened on the page, ignoring what an ability does and granting it new usages etc. I am going by what we are directly shown or stated with the sole exception being that the inner world is a pocket dimension. That comes from Ichigo’s body physically going there via something that only showed dimensional travel and it possessing reishi which we know for a fact has physical mass.

Love when people argue for the sake of arguing, no doubt someone would debate me whether the Earth is flat here, not sure what I expect though, people come here to argue without purpose, who can stonewall for longer, that's typically how it goes.

Are you actually comparing me to a flat earther? Seriously?

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Also personal theory, Ichigo has only accepted twice when in his inner world that the blade and he are the same, which is after his Mugetsu training and after Oetsu forces Ichigo to confronts OMZ. So Mugetsu Ichigo might be a different culmination to his power tree like after he gets a proper zanpakuto, with just the twist that he doesn't have a proper zanpakuto.

That said, it is quite obviously not a pocket dimension or a separated time-space simply because
1. He still remains in the real world when he goes into zanpakuto meditation
2. There is no separation of timespace either as Oetsu could still talk to Ichigo when he was in that dimension, implying it is related to his zanpakuto and the soul and not physics.

Or maybe Oetsu opened a senkaimon and shouted into Ichigo's soul?

 

[Purgy]

Good luck with your passive Spatial Manipulation, Physics Manipulation and thought-based Reality Warping CRT for all Shinigami.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

That said speaking of shadows and zanpakuto, I checked Shunsui's page and he doesn't seem to have... pocket dimension creation(?) on there. Can't he stay in kageoni pocket spaces and also bring people in with him? I don't know what the correct term for it is tbh.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Imagine me making a CRT lol. I did it once and hated it despite how short the OP was.

Also personal theory, Ichigo has only accepted twice when in his inner world that the blade and he are the same, which is after his Mugetsu training and after Oetsu forces Ichigo to confronts OMZ. So Mugetsu Ichigo might be a different culmination to his power tree like after he gets a proper zanpakuto, with just the twist that he doesn't have a proper zanpakuto.

FGT is just a technique though so I dunno if it is a culmination of all of his powers beyond him using everything when he turns it on.

That said, it is quite obviously not a pocket dimension or a separated time-space simply because

Pocket dimensions don’t need to temporally separated?

1. He still remains in the real world when he goes into zanpakuto meditation

I feel people have a weird misunderstanding of what I am saying. Physically being able to go there =/= having to go there.

2. There is no separation of timespace either as Oetsu could still talk to Ichigo when he was in that dimension, implying it is related to his zanpakuto and the soul and not physics.

Fairly certain we all agree that it’s soul based.

Or maybe Oetsu opened a senkaimon and shouted into Ichigo's soul?

Maybe lmao.

 

[Purgy]

Imagine me making a CRT lol. I did it once and hated it despite how short the OP was.

But you're so confident that it's a physical space that Ichigo can manipulate on a whim, and you have so much evidence too, so why not make a CRT for it?

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

In normal sections of the fandom we'd be having discussions on Yhwach's and Aizen's motives and personal philosophies (these two specifically because we have no "villain recounts his tale and laments" moments for these two).

But here we are in the versus section of the fandom discussing whether Ichigo has a pocket dimension in his soul lol

 

[AnonymousBlank]

But you're so confident that it's a physical space that Ichigo can manipulate on a whim, and you have so much evidence too, so why not make a CRT for it?

Confidence has **** all to do with my motivation for making CRTs though? I am confident Gremmy is Galaxy and that Lille uses actual light but I ain’t making a CRT for those either. Also when did I say “on a whim”? I said it follows what Ichigo believes, which it does.

 

[Purgy]

Confidence has **** all to do with my motivation for making CRTs though? I am confident Gremmy is Galaxy and that Lille uses actual light but I ain’t making a CRT for those either. Also when did I say “on a whim”? I said it follows what Ichigo believes, which it does.

Seems like a waste

You have all these well constructed arguments filled with evidence, and you're clearly willing to argue for it, if you made a CRT for it, it'd be accepted easily.

Ichigo manipulating physics and reality just by thinking is on a whim, yeah.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

In normal sections of the fandom we'd be having discussions on Yhwach's and Aizen's motives and personal philosophies (these two specifically because we have no "villain recounts his tale and laments" moments for these two).

Yhwach doesn’t seem to lament anything he has done though so it makes sense he wouldn’t get that kinda stuff. Plus with how he is seen as this Holy and divine figure by the rest of the people who would know things about him, the legendary tales about him are far more interesting given how first hand accounts/memories don’t give us anything different besides reinforcing this idea.

Aizen on the other hand …….. for the most part, he just doesn’t want people to have power over him/be below anybody. Won’t lie, never really thought much about Aizen’s motivations. Just accepted that he was a badass whenever he did anything.

But here we are in the versus section of the fandom discussing whether Ichigo has a pocket dimension in his soul lol

The good stuff lmao

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Seems like a waste

Truly is but what can ya do?

You have all these well constructed arguments filled with evidence, and you're clearly willing to argue for it, if you made a CRT for it, it'd be accepted easily.

Nah. I’m waiting on Apple’s Fullbring > Dangai CRT. That shit is gonna be so fire.

Ichigo manipulating physics and reality just by thinking is on a whim, yeah.

Thinking =/= belief but go off I guess. Also you gotta stop leaving out that it’s only for his inner world. Let’s not misrepresent my stance.

 

[Naeblis495]

i agree ,shinigami soul space can't be physically there. It's abstract as part of the mind and soul.

 

[Purgy]

Thinking =/= belief but go off I guess. Also you gotta stop leaving out that it’s only for his inner world. Let’s not misrepresent my stance.

I mean, you kinda said that Ichigo thought he was falling, and thus, willed into existence gravity which made him fall.

Why is it only for his inner world?

We don't say that SK's Conceptual Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Physics manipulation etc only apply to the dimensions he created because that's what they were used for.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

We don't say that SK's Conceptual Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Physics manipulation etc only apply to the dimensions he created because that's what they were used for.

We were all in (Reio's) dream all along...

 

[Naeblis495]

Reio vs Azathoth when ?

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Kenpachi has the best "oh I wasn't even using my full power" moment (the first time).

Change my mind.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I mean, you kinda said that Ichigo thought he was falling, and thus, willed into existence gravity which made him fall.

No. The context is about belief. Ichigo was sitting normally and thus believed he was just on a normal horizontal surface. When he is made aware of his position, he no longer believes shit works like how it was seconds before as standing “horizontally”on the side of a building isn’t how it works irl. This causes him to immediately fall as how he believes he should.

Why is it only for his inner world?

Because the inner world is what reflects his beliefs and mental state? Why would we say he can do it to anything besides what he has actually shown and been stated to affect? Man really asking me to prove a negative smh.

We don't say that SK's Conceptual Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Physics manipulation etc only apply to the dimensions he created because that's what they were used for.

The dimensions he created aren’t his personal world that is stated and show to reflect what he believes. Unless you got a scan that says the entire cosmology is SK’s inner world, he doesn’t matter.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Kenpachi has the best "oh I wasn't even using my full power" moment (the first time).

Change my mind.

The eye patch in SS? Definitely a goated moment but I prefer FB Shikai swings being mistaken for GT.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Also damn Ichigo vs Kenpachi has foolish amounts of foreshadowing.
1. Blut vene, and OMZ directly stating that that is his ability.
2. quincy shadows.
3. That OMZ can actually modulate his strength, implying that he isn't always at full strength
4. Hichigo calling Ichigo partner, and directly making him appreciate the sword.
5. Yachiru immediately stating to Kenpachi that they'll get stronger together right after Kenpachi asks his zanpakuto to get stronger with him.

 

[Purgy]

No. The context is about belief. Ichigo was sitting normally and thus believed he was just on a normal horizontal surface. When he is made aware of his position, he no longer believes shit works like how it was seconds before as standing “horizontally”on the side of a building isn’t how it works irl. This causes him to immediately fall as how he believes he should.

Because the inner world is what reflects his beliefs and mental state? Why would we say he can do it to anything besides what he has actually shown and been stated to affect? Man really asking me to prove a negative smh.

The dimensions he created aren’t his personal world that is stated and show to reflect what he believes. Unless you got a scan that says the entire cosmology is SK’s inner world, he doesn’t matter.

As I told you before, that isn't true, Zangetsu explained what happened there

Ichigo has never once actively manipulated his inner world, it only changes depending on his mental state, like depression etc, you make it out as if he's Neo manipulating the matrix, being able to make whatever he believes, happen.

If Ichigo could really just make it so he wouldn't fall by simply believing it, Zangetsu would have told him to do that instead of telling him to "fly" like a Shinigami does.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

As I told you before, that isn't true, Zangetsu explained what happened there

Didn’t remember that part. I’ll concede on the gravity.

Ichigo has never once actively manipulated his inner world, it only changes depending on his mental state, like depression etc, you make it out as if he's Neo manipulating the matrix, being able to make whatever he believes, happen.

I don’t get why you keep bringing this up. I have never once said he can actively manipulate his inner world. The stance has always been it reflects what his mental state and beliefs.

Also Neo messing with the Matrix would he completely different. He is rewriting code to let him do a bunch of shit and none of it. The only time belief came into play was making him realise that he was in a computer.

If Ichigo could really just make it so he wouldn't fall by simply believing it, Zangetsu would have told him to do that instead of telling him to "fly" like a Shinigami does.

Old Man also told him to use Shinigami powers when he didn’t have access to them so ……

 

[Purgy]

I don’t get why you keep bringing this up. I have never once said he can actively manipulate his inner world. The stance has always been it reflects what his mental state and beliefs.

Also Neo messing with the Matrix would he completely different. He is rewriting code to let him do a bunch of shit and none of it. The only time belief came into play was making him realise that he was in a computer.

Old Man also told him to use Shinigami powers when he didn’t have access to them so ……

I keep bringing it up because you keep arguing it

The inner world reflects his mental state yes, not his beliefs, that has never been shown or stated.

The whole point of The Matrix is Neo believing that he's just in a machine and he can do whatever he wants because of it, literally no different from what you're arguing Ichigo can do.

That last part isn't true either, but it doesn't really matter, so whatever.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I keep bringing it up because you keep arguing it

Except I don’t. I keep arguing against it because you keep strawmanning me.

The inner world reflects his mental state yes, not his beliefs, that has never been shown or stated.

It’s almost like the belief part was based on the gravity situation which I just conceded to?

The whole point of The Matrix is Neo believing that he's just in a machine and he can do whatever he wants because of it,

That’s what I just said. Did you actually read that paragraph.

literally no different from what you're arguing Ichigo can do.

Quit conflating things that are different. Neo can manipulate the Matrix because it’s just a computer. He only has to realise that the world he is in isn’t real and that he can change it by hacking. He doesn’t need to believe the superpowers he gives himself are real. My argument for Ichigo altering his inner world was predicated on what he believed would be the case.

That last part isn't true either, but it doesn't really matter, so whatever.

Ichigo literally didn’t have access to his Shinigami powers at the time. That’s what the whole show of him finding the red ribbon to get the box was for. So that he could get access to them and stop turning into a Hollow.

 

[Purgy]

Except I don’t. I keep arguing against it because you keep strawmanning me.

It’s almost like the belief part was based on the gravity situation which I just conceded to?

Then why ask why I keep bringing it up in the same post that you concede to it?

That’s what I just said. Did you actually read that paragraph.

No, I just decided to respond to your post without reading it

Spoiler

Of course I read it... You're just contradicting yourself

Quit conflating things that are different. Neo can manipulate the Matrix because it’s just a computer. He only has to realise that the world he is in isn’t real and that he can change it by hacking. He doesn’t need to believe the superpowers he gives himself are real. My argument for Ichigo altering his inner world was predicated on what he believed would be the case.

Semantics

You were arguing that Ichigo can manipulate his inner world based on what he believes, no different from Neo manipulating the matrix simply by believing he can.

You're trying to back-pedal, might as well just concede to the whole thing at this point.

Ichigo literally didn’t have access to his Shinigami powers at the time. That’s what the whole show of him finding the red ribbon to get the box was for. So that he could get access to them and stop turning into a Hollow.

That last part isn't true either, but it doesn't really matter, so whatever.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

This has:
1. absolutely no combat applications or story ramifications whatsoever either ways
2. doesn't matter except for getting to add some new words to a fanpage for a fictional character
So why has this being going on for so long?

 

[Purgy]

This has:
1. absolutely no combat applications or story ramifications whatsoever either ways
2. doesn't matter except for getting to add some new words to a fanpage for a fictional character
So why has this being going on for so long?

Because people refuse to concede when it comes to debating, you kinda did the same thing in that infinite stamina thread.

The results don't matter, people are only interested in arguing here.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

you kinda did the same thing in that infinite stamina thread.

Spoiler: don't click this

Bruv the sleep thing was a weakness stated in story what did you want me to do, ignore actual canon? Make a CRT again if you wish I won't say anything if you really want because that was genuinely exhausting and extremely inane

The results don't matter, people are only interested in arguing here.

What I wanted to say is that at least argue on something that Ichigo can actually use in combat tho

Anyhow if anyone else wants to start a different discussion on why soul society Sado is actually his strongest form then just ask

 

[Purgy]

Spoiler: don't click this

Bruv the sleep thing was a weakness stated in story what did you want me to do, ignore actual canon? Make a CRT again if you wish I won't say anything if you really want because that was genuinely exhausting and extremely inane

Spoiler

Yhwach needing to sleep because of his power swap thing with Jugram has nothing to do with stamina though

Regardless, I don't blame you for how that CRT went, I just got bored debating the topic and asked for it to be closed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Zangetsu really doesn’t need his own profile ngl

 

[AppleLord]

Time stop for Zangetsu?

The rocks in the air are frozen during that scene. Same with Kenpachi.

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Spoiler

Yhwach needing to sleep because of his power swap thing with Jugram has nothing to do with stamina though

Regardless, I don't blame you for how that CRT went, I just got bored debating the topic and asked for it to be closed.

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haha there's nothing here

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Spoiler

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Spoiler

Spoiler

pushes up glasses Akchually That's a wing, a spoiler is something different.

 

[BleachHollow]

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Spoiler

pushes up glasses Akchually That's a wing, a spoiler is something different.

Spoiler

[Glasses Begin Glowing] Akchualley one is a Yellow Abomination and the other is an Ironing Board

 

[AppleLord]

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Spoiler

 

[AppleLord]

Weebo video

 

[KarematsuShinjuu]

Why is Komamura listed as type 1 supersize when I'm fairly certain that a databook states Komamura's bankai is 100m tall, the literal qualification of type 2 supersize? He should be
Type 1 Supersize (base), Type 1 supersize (shikai), Type 2 supersize (bankai).

 

[Purgy]

Why is Komamura listed as type 1 supersize when I'm fairly certain that a databook states Komamura's bankai is 100m tall, the literal qualification of type 2 supersize? He should be
Type 1 Supersize (base), Type 1 supersize (shikai), Type 2 supersize (bankai).

Do you have a scan?