Death Battle REMATCH | Naruto vs Ichigo GRACE

[Kidkinsey]

The hollow poison has literally never been relevant in a battle lol. Yall acting like it instantly starts to weaken you if you don't have antibodies

The clones aren't also just gonna stand there and watch a giant getsuga be fired at them, some of them will dodge or fire 100s of attacks back to try and counter them

When has ichigos RPL made him gap somebody in the middle of combat? It's usually a transformation that closes the gap when he's losing

 

[BlackeJan]

there is something you don't really get about the speed. naruto here is starting in his base form. what you tagged is for his kurama mode. meaning speed is equalised between base naruto and ichigo. sure ichigo shunpo would cancel out shunshin and the light stuff can maybe deal with boil release but those are the amps. How is ichigo dealing with naruto increase in speed from base to sage mode or spsm to kurama mode? w

This is actually his standard SPSM (just the eyes) but yes he has Kurama cloak, the Biju’s helping out, senjutsu (also depends on how much Kurama wants to gather) and Ashura Mode

 

[KillerNerd007]

so speed is equalised and naruto amps include shunshin, kurama mode and ichigo own is flash step. I think naruto has the speed advantage

Ichigo has his Bankai, Shunpo and Bringer Light. So he can be faster.

 

[KillerNerd007]

When has Ichigo ever attacked with Spatial Manipulation? Does he even use bringer light regularly? Speaking of hollow corruption, he fought multiple Quincies who have no antibodies and nothing happened to them.
When has he ever ignored the enemy infront of him to chase after what seems like the boss? He didn't use Shunpo to immediately get to Yhwach and gt his ass, he took his sweet time flying towards Uryu as well.

What kind off arguments are these against Naruto's amps? Since when does not indicating "higher with amps" in AP mean they don't apply past that point? Boil release doesn't take time to perform at all.
Naruto with the asura avatar is 266 Exatons and can go higher with amps, the only time an amp can't go past the AP rating is if they're already included in it.

Ichigo spamming the heck outta gt in every direction is something he has never done even when faced with multiple opponents, why are we ignoring the fact that Naruto can just dodge?

Let's keep the wincons to something they're more likely to pull off which means no hollow shenanigans, no omnidirectional consecutive nuking, no ignoring multiple enemies to chase some vague power source.

He has used it in Fake Karakura Town and he used it as well for Yukio's dimension. Yes he does. The people he fought in Bankai where its likely to activate are an Arrancar Quincy, Quilge who is in charge of taking care of Hollows, and Yhwach who seems to have resistances. The Hollow Poison is passive due to it being just their existence to do it.

He actually did against Yhwach, he saw Yhwach and thought he was the enemy leader, so he bolted for him immediately.

Its just a 2 times difference, and Ichigo faced off against people with higher amps, like Ulquiorra, and survived their attacks, like he faced people with a 50 to 100 times strength difference and took their attacks head on plus more afterwards, he even has other stat amps and evolution capabilities that unlike Naruto's amps, stay with him. So if anything, you bringing this in is a disadvantage, cause with that tactic he used against Sasuke, he went to 0 in an instant, and with Boil Release, he loses that amp.

Funny how that tactic was shown in the anime vs Yhwach and it would have been the first thing he would do against those Arrancar guards.

On top of that, what arguments are these against Ichigo's stuff? Like genuinely none of it counters what was brought in and when that logic is brought to Naruto, it falls apart.

Just keep consistency.

 

[KillerNerd007]

How in the world u think it’s “small amps just because u think it is???

That’s not a good argument when I can turn a round and say that Ichigo’s amp barely do anything

A guy who is 2 times stronger vs a guy who can take attacks 50 to 100 times stronger than him and then got stronger since. Pretty sure 2 times is a small thing to be concerned about, especially since Ichigo can go higher than that.

 

[KillerNerd007]

there is something you don't really get about the speed. naruto here is starting in his base form. what you tagged is for his kurama mode. meaning speed is equalised between base naruto and ichigo. sure ichigo shunpo would cancel out shunshin and the light stuff can maybe deal with boil release but those are the amps. How is ichigo dealing with naruto increase in speed from base to sage mode or spsm to kurama mode? w

When did it ever increase speed? With Bankai Ichigo actually gets an amp in speed.

 

[KillerNerd007]

The hollow poison has literally never been relevant in a battle lol. Yall acting like it instantly starts to weaken you if you don't have antibodies

The clones aren't also just gonna stand there and watch a giant getsuga be fired at them, some of them will dodge or fire 100s of attacks back to try and counter them

When has ichigos RPL made him gap somebody in the middle of combat? It's usually a transformation that closes the gap when he's losing

Kisuke prepping those Hollow pills, Grimmjow vs Askin when Grimmjow off guarded him.

Actually the clones did see an overwhelming amount of attacks and they just kept their linear path, as seen in Naruto the Last. Pretty sure a big AOE attack will do wonders.

Grimmjow for one.

 

[KillerNerd007]

most people have answered these already.

They haven't really. Their answers are simply vague, just please show something direct.

 

[KillerNerd007]

what's bringer light? plus naruto also has boil release. The main reason i give naruto speed is due to the fact that one of the increase here is not just an amp but an entire transformation. naruto goes from base to spsm to kurama mode. these are forms that have a wide speed gap between them.

1. I've never seen the soul corruption work instantly. It is something that happens overtime, naruto resists power absorbtion already and can you explain the death manipulation for me?
2. The clones are faster than him and each single petal is not as fast as ichigo if it was he won't be able to deflect all. That is logically not sound. I can't be sol and deflect 100 blades at sol speeds coming right at me at close distance unless he did not individually hit each of them
3. his strongest jutsu is not 266. Asura avatar is I mean the avatar physically. The ultra big ball whatever is nuking ichigo to oblivion. each of them are more than twice his ap. TSO also have erasure and ichigo is not getting past that
4. this is just endurance and sadly the wiki does not take this into account . We even have garou surviving hits from people thousands of times stronger. Stick to the vs rules please
5. amaterasu vaporised steel instantly. This is a non factor as it is not touching naruto cloaked

The amp of Boil Release is never really quantified, but Ichigo has his Bankai, which is a more direct increase.

1) Power absorption isn't power draining, and in Boruto we directly see Naruto can't resist it due to Karma.

2) Between instinctive actions which negate emotion sensing and is faster than Naruto's reaction speed, Shunpo, Bringer Light, Sonido, reactive power level and more, Ichigo has the edge in speed, and on top of that, AOE Getsuga Tenshou.

3) That stuff takes time, but assuming the best for Naruto (which is a lot, like assuming Ichigo won't spot him right away or Ichigo doesn't escape the AOE), Ichigo took attacks much stronger than him, which are in the 50 to 100 times range, whereas Naruto doing that brings his Chakra levels to 0, leaving him vulnerable for an attack.

4) Its a valid counter.

5) Its passive heat that is much higher than what Amaterasu has shown by feats, that thing failed to kill samurai or burn trees. Ichigo's heat was able to vaporize an entire ocean. Can Naruto really take heat occuring for 3 months stright?

Also again, no counters to spatial manipulation.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Look, I just want to be direct and honest as possible about this. And I'm sorry, really, but Ichigo has the edge in all the relevant categories, Naruto has no answer for spatial manipulation.

 

[Tatsumi504]

It seems no one has been listening at all to our claims here.

Naruto is not resisting corruption, power reduction, or death manip from Hollow physiology. No one has countered this or has explained why this is a non-factor.

I don't know, maybe because it's not something he can do? None of the quincies he fought ever faced this.

No one has provided any reason on why Ichigo is getting overwhelmed by clones when he's able to deflect danmaku comparable to him in speed that reaches the millions and are as thin as paper and as large as flower petals.

Danmaku in the form of petals isn't equivalent to a bunch of humans jumping you.

The AOE is a massive factor as the clones aren't dodging that shit. It's an AOE for a reason

A slash attack no matter how large is dodge able. So long as it's linear, the option to dodge exists.

Not to mention as Gin said Ichigo wouldn't even need GT in the first place.

Naruto's strongest jutsu is 266, so no, no boosts are gonna happen past that, that was his absolute peak.

No, the asura avatar is 266 Exatons not his strongest jutsu. His strongest jutsu exploding along with Sasuke's feom a distance absolutely destroyed his asura avatar.
Naruto's amps also aren't included in the rating of his asura avatar so he's still free to use them.

I already countered that Ichigo isn't gonna get punked by those either and also has Blut Vene which is instinctively boosting his durability to 665 exatons.

For Pete's sake, this only happened because he was facing Yhwach and needless to say, Naruto isn't Yhwach.

Ichigo's resistances still remain as logically there is no reason why they shouldn't. Kenpachi was at Ichigo's level yet he doesn't resist that, and fodder souls resist Quincy absorption which is macro-quantum deconstruction, so no TSOs or rasenshuriken is bypassing that.

Can't remember anyone still noting TSO as a wincon

Ichigo is also getting stronger as the fight goes on and can take hits from Res Ulquiorra who was an entire 5-10x stronger than his best moves since his mask and GT only chipped his sword in base. His Getsuga also in said resureccion was able to hold him back after it at best barely did shit.

Pretty sure all of this is already counted in ichigo's stats

All of this, and NO ONE has countered Getsuga's heat that can instantaneously evaporate solid rock.ou need between 2

Why is that so important? A quick search shows you need between 2.800 - 4000 °C to do that

I swear none of you are listening whatsoever because if you did this wouldn't be a pissing contest of who has better what.

I haven't even partaken in the discussion but you're also not listening

 

[Tatsumi504]

He has used it in Fake Karakura Town and he used it as well for Yukio's dimension. Yes he does. The people he fought in Bankai where its likely to activate are an Arrancar Quincy, Quilge who is in charge of taking care of Hollows, and Yhwach who seems to have resistances. The Hollow Poison is passive due to it being just their existence to do it.

The Bambi's

He actually did against Yhwach, he saw Yhwach and thought he was the enemy leader, so he bolted for him immediately.

Pretty sure there was no one else to fight by then

Its just a 2 times difference, and Ichigo faced off against people with higher amps, like Ulquiorra, and survived their attacks, like he faced people with a 50 to 100 times strength difference and took their attacks head on plus more afterwards, he even has other stat amps and evolution capabilities that unlike Naruto's amps, stay with him. So if anything, you bringing this in is a disadvantage, cause with that tactic he used against Sasuke, he went to 0 in an instant, and with Boil Release, he loses that amp.

Naruto's amps does intact stay with him and he has also taken hits from opponents stronger than he is.
I didn't say Naruto was gonna use the ultra big ball twin rasenshuriken (is that the name?) either, I was saying several of his Jutsu are above 266 exatons. Why would he lose the amp with boil release?

Funny how that tactic was shown in the anime vs Yhwach and it would have been the first thing he would do against those Arrancar guards.

? You talking about spamming gt?

On top of that, what arguments are these against Ichigo's stuff? Like genuinely none of it counters what was brought in and when that logic is brought to Naruto, it falls apart.

Just keep consistency.

I didn't make any arguments for or against, I was shooting down all the ooc stuff

 

[karo_senpaii]

This is actually his standard SPSM (just the eyes) but yes he has Kurama cloak, the Biju’s helping out, senjutsu (also depends on how much Kurama wants to gather) and Ashura Mode

his base form already scales likely there though so i thought that's where he starts

When did it ever increase speed? With Bankai Ichigo actually gets an amp in speed.

what are you saying? are you asking me where kurama cloak boosts speed? his first use of it took him from below pre war arc kakashi in speed to faster than the raikage. SPSM helped him almost blitz madara, boil release blitz kaguya. shunshin is like basic blitz 101. And ichigo does not have a bankai boost coz when the battle starts he already is in bankai. like the equalized speed is between bankai ichigo and base naruto.

The amp of Boil Release is never really quantified, but Ichigo has his Bankai, which is a more direct increase.

1) Power absorption isn't power draining, and in Boruto we directly see Naruto can't resist it due to Karma.

2) Between instinctive actions which negate emotion sensing and is faster than Naruto's reaction speed, Shunpo, Bringer Light, Sonido, reactive power level and more, Ichigo has the edge in speed, and on top of that, AOE Getsuga Tenshou.

3) That stuff takes time, but assuming the best for Naruto (which is a lot, like assuming Ichigo won't spot him right away or Ichigo doesn't escape the AOE), Ichigo took attacks much stronger than him, which are in the 50 to 100 times range, whereas Naruto doing that brings his Chakra levels to 0, leaving him vulnerable for an attack.

4) Its a valid counter.

5) Its passive heat that is much higher than what Amaterasu has shown by feats, that thing failed to kill samurai or burn trees. Ichigo's heat was able to vaporize an entire ocean. Can Naruto really take heat occuring for 3 months stright?

Also again, no counters to spatial manipulation.

ichigo starts in banaki. there is no speed amp for him there
1. momoshiki specifically said a tied up passed out naruto was making it very hard for them to absorb kurama hence it was taking time. A normal naruto will never have his power absorbed. Why are you mentioning karma? that's just energy absorption and shinjutusu which ninjutsu is below
2. naruto and ichigo speed are equalised. SPSM reaction speed is so far beyond. In fact drop proof of what particular amp is giving ichigo higher reactions. he can only use sonido in hollow form and you can't stack it on shunpo. choose one. his reactive power level is insignificant. I have no idea how you think ichigo has the speed edge
3. It takes 3 panels which basically is irrelevant to ftl characters. one more time even if ichigo survives an attack over 1k times his durability vs battle does not take it into account for matches except for endurance. Naruto attackd oes not bring his chakra to zero. He was caught in the explosion of his and sasuke's and that's what dropped them and they fought for half a day later mind you naruto had been fighting kaguya using up a lot of chakra for a while
4. No it's not
5. make a thread and downgrade amaterasu then. till then it is above whatever ichigo produces in this form. stop talking about later forms of ichigo
6. how about you try reading naruto profile you woulf see his resistance right there starring at you

 

[KaydeeX]

Also again, no counters to spatial manipulation

Naruto holds that sh*t like he did to Kaguya’s portal forcibly closing.

 

[KillerNerd007]

The Bambi's

Pretty sure there was no one else to fight by then

Naruto's amps does intact stay with him and he has also taken hits from opponents stronger than he is.
I didn't say Naruto was gonna use the ultra big ball twin rasenshuriken (is that the name?) either, I was saying several of his Jutsu are above 266 exatons. Why would he lose the amp with boil release?

? You talking about spamming gt?

I didn't make any arguments for or against, I was shooting down all the ooc stuff

He was in base and was primarily with his Shinigami side.

Except an army of Quincies? But the fact he darted towards Yhwach just from a vague suspicion and was correct, kind of infers he would actually bolt towards Naruto's clone that is gathering nature energy.

They actually don't, they are momentary from the fight, and Ichigo's RPL amps stay with him.

He would actually, plus it is 10 times stronger than him, which is higher than Naruto's best possible 2 times amp.

 

[KillerNerd007]

what are you saying? are you asking me where kurama cloak boosts speed? his first use of it took him from below pre war arc kakashi in speed to faster than the raikage. SPSM helped him almost blitz madara, boil release blitz kaguya. shunshin is like basic blitz 101. And ichigo does not have a bankai boost coz when the battle starts he already is in bankai. like the equalized speed is between bankai ichigo and base naruto.

ichigo starts in banaki. there is no speed amp for him there
1. momoshiki specifically said a tied up passed out naruto was making it very hard for them to absorb kurama hence it was taking time. A normal naruto will never have his power absorbed. Why are you mentioning karma? that's just energy absorption and shinjutusu which ninjutsu is below
2. naruto and ichigo speed are equalised. SPSM reaction speed is so far beyond. In fact drop proof of what particular amp is giving ichigo higher reactions. he can only use sonido in hollow form and you can't stack it on shunpo. choose one. his reactive power level is insignificant. I have no idea how you think ichigo has the speed edge
3. It takes 3 panels which basically is irrelevant to ftl characters. one more time even if ichigo survives an attack over 1k times his durability vs battle does not take it into account for matches except for endurance. Naruto attackd oes not bring his chakra to zero. He was caught in the explosion of his and sasuke's and that's what dropped them and they fought for half a day later mind you naruto had been fighting kaguya using up a lot of chakra for a while
4. No it's not
5. make a thread and downgrade amaterasu then. till then it is above whatever ichigo produces in this form. stop talking about later forms of ichigo
6. how about you try reading naruto profile you woulf see his resistance right there starring at you

I am asking when was it ever stated, cause I saw people show me it doesn't increase much of speed, just Chakra amounts. I might ask them again btw.

1) ... so basically yes, Naruto can have his Chakra absorbed... this doesn't help anything. Just cause Naruto can give trouble doesn't mean his Chakra can't be absorbed, he can say: just have the Chakra absorbed but it turns out to be a Clone, so Momoshiki took that care.

2) Ichigo can use his Bankai to specifically enhance his speed. The thing does say speed equalized but it never indicated Ichigo can't use the speed enhancement of the Bankai.

3) I counted 5 panels, and afterwards, it took a whole day after Naruto used that attack to regain normal Chakra levels. But all those clones go down in one hit and Getsuga Tenshou in the profile has a 10 times damage boost to Ichigo's physicals, its more than enough to one shot all the clones and then some, as for a one shot is an 8 times stat difference, on top of the fact by the get go, Ihcigo is stronger.

4) Just saying that isn't enough.

5) Its just base form Ichigo just reforming his Zanpakuto. And I checked everything for Amaterasu, its in fact placed lower than Ichigo's feat in Royal Palace in terms of heat. Kid said its at over 5000+ celcius.

6) There isn't anything for him resisting spatial manipulation. Also, don't try to insult me.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Naruto holds that sh*t like he did to Kaguya’s portal forcibly closing.

And then he failed to keep it open. Again, with Night Guy, it directly shows Six Paths characters can't resist spatial manipulation, they lose to Gran Rey Cero type spatial manipulation. Naruto later also gets affected by Kaguya's super gravity dimension.

 

[Tatsumi504]

He was in base and was primarily with his Shinigami side.

And he's still in his Shinigami form here so why does hollow powers matter?

Except an army of Quincies? But the fact he darted towards Yhwach just from a vague suspicion and was correct, kind of infers he would actually bolt towards Naruto's clone that is gathering nature energy.

Iirc, after breaking out of Quilge's jail, there was no one left to fight? Even then, it's not like he was engaged in combat first then saw/sensed Yhwach and decided he wanted that smoke did he?

They actually don't, they are momentary from the fight, and Ichigo's RPL amps stay with him.

I checked and the stuff you mentioned are in his pre-timeskip key and actually reflects on his profile.

He would actually, plus it is 10 times stronger than him, which is higher than Naruto's best possible 2 times amp.

Pretty sure something as significant as 10x will reflect on his profile but it's just "higher". If it ain't there, it probably breaks the scaling which makes it an outlier. I vaguely remember either Gin or Arc saying this when it was brought up in the revision threads

 

[KaydeeX]

And then he failed to keep it open. Again, with Night Guy, it directly shows Six Paths characters can't resist spatial manipulation, they lose to Gran Rey Cero type spatial manipulation. Naruto later also gets affected by Kaguya's super gravity dimension.

Why are you bringing up Madara when both individual forms are distinctive, not only visually but also thematically, making comparisons between the two unnecessary.
To cut all the chase, I never referred to resistance; rather, a counteractive measure via NPI.

 

[Excellence616]

And he's still in his Shinigami form here so why does hollow powers matter

True Shikai Ichigo Hollow since isn't activated till he use his Horn Of Salvation that is why he got two Zanpakuto

In his Fullbring Shinigami Form, his Hollow powers is intertwined with his Fullbringer powers

make a thread and downgrade amaterasu then. till then it is above whatever ichigo produces in this form. stop talking about later forms of ichigo

No one is making a thread and any ability prior to Fullbringer Shinigami is can be used

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Alright, I'm back in it.

Naruto isn't resisting Hollow Corruption.

You're gonna say "what about Quincies" Quincies NEED to decon Hollow Reiatsu or they get corrupted.

 

[Naeblis495]

Ichigo win 7/10.

Constant passive physical damage via reiatsu , making the clones near useless and would wear out naruto quickly.

Ichigo outskill Naruto and will get stronger and better as the fight goes.

Hollow poisoning on any attacks wich would neg naruto pretty quickly regardless of his regen due to having no hollow anti bodies.

Far higher mobility via shunpo wich he can spam all week. And with bringer Light or Sonido he can **** with Naruto senses making him far harder to track.

GT would demolish Naruto given the amp and easily deal with the clones spam/bumrush thank to the aoe explosions. Not to mention the heat it give off,it could burn Yhwach and a weaker clone of Yhwach could tank bankai Yama passive heat. And just like shunpo, he can spam them for weeks.

Cosmic awareness or simple soul sensing ability would easily allow him to know the real naruto from the clones.

All in all, Ichigo win con is much easier to reach imo. All he need is to nick Naruto once with any ability and then naruto would quickly succumb to hollow cancer.

Alright, I'm back in it.

Naruto isn't resisting Hollow Corruption.

You're gonna say "what about Quincies" Quincies NEED to decon Hollow Reiatsu or they get corrupted.

Would need macro quantum soul decon too.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Alright, let me give an actual argument for Ichigo.

Ichigo’s high speed movement technique while in his Fullbring Bankai state would incorporate aspects of Sonido, Shunpo, and Bringer Light as Ichigo makes use of his Shinigami, Hollow, and Fullbring powers while in this form. This gives Ichigo a bit of an advantage when it comes to high speed movement (HSM) techniques, as not only does combining different HSM techniques provide a greater speed amp than just a regular Shunpo (which is already consistently an FTE amp), but it also makes Ichigo harder to sense as Sonido and Bringer Light both either entirely bypass or make it extremely difficult for extrasensory techniques to sense. So, Ichigo’s HSM technique should be superior to Naruto’s body flicker, as body flicker and Shunpo are both portrayed as FTE amps, and Ichigo’s HSM technique is well beyond that of a Shunpo amp. Not to mention, Naruto would have a harder time tracking Ichigo than he would normally. And to top it off, Ichigo is consistently able to react to FTE movement techniques as early as the Soul Society arc when he does so against Byakuya. Hence, I believe Ichigo handily takes it in the speed department here when you compare what their respective speed amps can do.

The next point is an actual argument for Ichigo’s high temperature. The trillion degree calc is just blatantly not accepted and not useable, shame on whichever Bleach goon brought that up. However, the heat of Ichigo’s Black Getsuga is far I’ll far beyond Naruto’s resistances. Thanks to Klub Outside, we know that Royd Yhwach was only 70-80% of actual Yhwach’s capabilities (aka real Yhwach has better abilities, resistances, and power). Royd Yhwach was able to withstand the 15 million degree C passive heat aura of Yama’s Bankai. Meanwhile, Ichigo’s Black Getsuga was able to burn the actual Yhwach. Meaning that FB Bankai Ichigo’s Black Getsuga would have heat on the order of millions of degrees C, which would vaporize Naruto on impact, as Naruto’s accepted heat resistances on wiki are nowhere closer to that value. All of this means is that if Ichigo tags Naruto with a single Black Getsuga, it’s victory for Ichigo.

Lastly, I’d like to address the corruption points since 1) the Bleach supporters cannot articulate that point to save their lives and 2) the Naruto supporters are misunderstanding how Hollow corruption functions. Hollow corruption does take immediate effect on those without antibodies when it’s delivered in high enough dosages. We see this verbatim with the Hollow pills Kisuke distributes to the Captains, as the second they Hollowfy their Bankai, the Sternritter fountain blood from their bodies and cease functioning (as seen with Cang Du and BG9). However, this is not the case for all Sternritter, exceptionally powerful Schrift holders (like Bambi and Quilge for example) have some level of resistance to this corruption. When Komamura’s Bankai Hollowfies Bambi don’t adversely affected at all, and Quilge is able to incorporate Ayon (one of the stronger Hollows alive in the series at this point) into his very being without adverse affects. I bring this up to dispel the notion that Hollow corruption is this slow steady disease. It is very much quick, almost instant, in high dosages for those that lack sufficient antibodies and/or the proper resistances. So, the reason Quilge doesn’t get Hollow corrupted GG by Ichigo is because he has the capability to resist the corruption (as seen by being able to incorporate Ayon), and as for the Bambis we know they possess the capability to resist as well (we see this with Bambietta, and the rest of the troupe are rather comparable to each other). Furthermore, True Shikai Ichigo has mastery over his powers, his Hollow powers normally lay dormant in True Shikai (as seen with how he had to wake White up), and until he fights Yhwach he’s constantly holding back as to not kill the Sternritter. All of the instances of “but why didn’t Ichigo auto Hollow corruption GG them” are easily explained away by the people he fights having capabilities of resisting said corruption or Ichigo actively trying not to kill them. After all, the very plot significant reason that no one could steal Ichigo’s Bankai was due to his immense Hollow power that intertwined with his Shinigami powers. So, yes Naruto, who lacks any resistance to Hollow corruption, would very shortly after the battle starts begin to weaken and deteriorate as his very soul becomes poisoned by Hollow reiatsu.

Putting all this together, I believe there’s good reason to claim Ichigo takes it here. Superior speed amp techniques, blatant one shot techniques he can spam, as well as a passive Hollow corruption that’ll make Naruto weaker as the fight goes on, leads me to believe Ichigo should take this. Without means to blitz and one shot Ichigo, the fight will inevitably drag out long enough for Ichigo to tag a weakened Naruto with a Black Getsuga, turning him to vapor.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I am asking when was it ever stated, cause I saw people show me it doesn't increase much of speed, just Chakra amounts. I might ask them again btw.

1) ... so basically yes, Naruto can have his Chakra absorbed... this doesn't help anything. Just cause Naruto can give trouble doesn't mean his Chakra can't be absorbed, he can say: just have the Chakra absorbed but it turns out to be a Clone, so Momoshiki took that care.

2) Ichigo can use his Bankai to specifically enhance his speed. The thing does say speed equalized but it never indicated Ichigo can't use the speed enhancement of the Bankai.

3) I counted 5 panels, and afterwards, it took a whole day after Naruto used that attack to regain normal Chakra levels. But all those clones go down in one hit and Getsuga Tenshou in the profile has a 10 times damage boost to Ichigo's physicals, its more than enough to one shot all the clones and then some, as for a one shot is an 8 times stat difference, on top of the fact by the get go, Ihcigo is stronger.

4) Just saying that isn't enough.

5) Its just base form Ichigo just reforming his Zanpakuto. And I checked everything for Amaterasu, its in fact placed lower than Ichigo's feat in Royal Palace in terms of heat. Kid said its at over 5000+ celcius.

6) There isn't anything for him resisting spatial manipulation. Also, don't try to insult me.

you don't even need to ask people just read profiles.
1. He had his chakra absorbed coz he was held down and weakened what are you on about?
2. Are you new to vsbw? ichigo starts in his bankai form. His speed rated there already has the 5times amp applied. naruto base speed was now reduced to be equalized and match his that's all. There is no amp, the equalized ichigo is already using the amp
3. Naruto fought sasuke for half a day after that moment and that is what brought his chakra to zero and like i said he already used a lot fighting kaguya and madara. naruto used almost 20 tailed beasts rasenshuriken right before final valley. He was not at full chakra
4, It is enough by vsb standards
5. Base fulll power ichigo not ichigo with scraps of his power like he was on before royal palace and why is the heat of furnace of oetsu relevant here?
6. go to the section on tso. I'm not insulting you

Alright, let me give an actual argument for Ichigo.

Ichigo’s high speed movement technique while in his Fullbring Bankai state would incorporate aspects of Sonido, Shunpo, and Bringer Light as Ichigo makes use of his Shinigami, Hollow, and Fullbring powers while in this form. This gives Ichigo a bit of an advantage when it comes to high speed movement (HSM) techniques, as not only does combining different HSM techniques provide a greater speed amp than just a regular Shunpo (which is already consistently an FTE amp), but it also makes Ichigo harder to sense as Sonido and Bringer Light both either entirely bypass or make it extremely difficult for extrasensory techniques to sense. So, Ichigo’s HSM technique should be superior to Naruto’s body flicker, as body flicker and Shunpo are both portrayed as FTE amps, and Ichigo’s HSM technique is well beyond that of a Shunpo amp. Not to mention, Naruto would have a harder time tracking Ichigo than he would normally. And to top it off, Ichigo is consistently able to react to FTE movement techniques as early as the Soul Society arc when he does so against Byakuya. Hence, I believe Ichigo handily takes it in the speed department here when you compare what their respective speed amps can do.

The next point is an actual argument for Ichigo’s high temperature. The trillion degree calc is just blatantly not accepted and not useable, shame on whichever Bleach goon brought that up. However, the heat of Ichigo’s Black Getsuga is far I’ll far beyond Naruto’s resistances. Thanks to Klub Outside, we know that Royd Yhwach was only 70-80% of actual Yhwach’s capabilities (aka real Yhwach has better abilities, resistances, and power). Royd Yhwach was able to withstand the 15 million degree C passive heat aura of Yama’s Bankai. Meanwhile, Ichigo’s Black Getsuga was able to burn the actual Yhwach. Meaning that FB Bankai Ichigo’s Black Getsuga would have heat on the order of millions of degrees C, which would vaporize Naruto on impact, as Naruto’s accepted heat resistances on wiki are nowhere closer to that value. All of this means is that if Ichigo tags Naruto with a single Black Getsuga, it’s victory for Ichigo.

Lastly, I’d like to address the corruption points since 1) the Bleach supporters cannot articulate that point to save their lives and 2) the Naruto supporters are misunderstanding how Hollow corruption functions. Hollow corruption does take immediate effect on those without antibodies when it’s delivered in high enough dosages. We see this verbatim with the Hollow pills Kisuke distributes to the Captains, as the second they Hollowfy their Bankai, the Sternritter fountain blood from their bodies and cease functioning (as seen with Cang Du and BG9). However, this is not the case for all Sternritter, exceptionally powerful Schrift holders (like Bambi and Quilge for example) have some level of resistance to this corruption. When Komamura’s Bankai Hollowfies Bambi don’t adversely affected at all, and Quilge is able to incorporate Ayon (one of the stronger Hollows alive in the series at this point) into his very being without adverse affects. I bring this up to dispel the notion that Hollow corruption is this slow steady disease. It is very much quick, almost instant, in high dosages for those that lack sufficient antibodies and/or the proper resistances. So, the reason Quilge doesn’t get Hollow corrupted GG by Ichigo is because he has the capability to resist the corruption (as seen by being able to incorporate Ayon), and as for the Bambis we know they possess the capability to resist as well (we see this with Bambietta, and the rest of the troupe are rather comparable to each other). Furthermore, True Shikai Ichigo has mastery over his powers, his Hollow powers normally lay dormant in True Shikai (as seen with how he had to wake White up), and until he fights Yhwach he’s constantly holding back as to not kill the Sternritter. All of the instances of “but why didn’t Ichigo auto Hollow corruption GG them” are easily explained away by the people he fights having capabilities of resisting said corruption or Ichigo actively trying not to kill them. After all, the very plot significant reason that no one could steal Ichigo’s Bankai was due to his immense Hollow power that intertwined with his Shinigami powers. So, yes Naruto, who lacks any resistance to Hollow corruption, would very shortly after the battle starts begin to weaken and deteriorate as his very soul becomes poisoned by Hollow reiatsu.

Putting all this together, I believe there’s good reason to claim Ichigo takes it here. Superior speed amp techniques, blatant one shot techniques he can spam, as well as a passive Hollow corruption that’ll make Naruto weaker as the fight goes on, leads me to believe Ichigo should take this. Without means to blitz and one shot Ichigo, the fight will inevitably drag out long enough for Ichigo to tag a weakened Naruto with a Black Getsuga, turning him to vapor.

I disagree on the speed aspect. For one I don't think you can combine shunpo and sonido. The only time we were given information that ichigo used sonido was in his vasto lorde form. Also naruto is starting in base or spsm, I don't think ichigo would be able to keep up when he stacks kurama cloak

 

[Tatsumi504]

Alright, let me give an actual argument for Ichigo.

Ichigo’s high speed movement technique while in his Fullbring Bankai state would incorporate aspects of Sonido, Shunpo, and Bringer Light as Ichigo makes use of his Shinigami, Hollow, and Fullbring powers while in this form. This gives Ichigo a bit of an advantage when it comes to high speed movement (HSM) techniques, as not only does combining different HSM techniques provide a greater speed amp than just a regular Shunpo (which is already consistently an FTE amp), but it also makes Ichigo harder to sense as Sonido and Bringer Light both either entirely bypass or make it extremely difficult for extrasensory techniques to sense. So, Ichigo’s HSM technique should be superior to Naruto’s body flicker, as body flicker and Shunpo are both portrayed as FTE amps, and Ichigo’s HSM technique is well beyond that of a Shunpo amp. Not to mention, Naruto would have a harder time tracking Ichigo than he would normally. And to top it off, Ichigo is consistently able to react to FTE movement techniques as early as the Soul Society arc when he does so against Byakuya. Hence, I believe Ichigo handily takes it in the speed department here when you compare what their respective speed amps can do.

I don't recall bleach races speed amps being stackable (my knowledge on bleach is basically mushed up though) especially since sonido and bringer light are basically the hollow, full bringer counterpart of Shunpo.
Naruto also has amps via kurama mode, shunshin and I believe boil release was mentioned too. Given my doubts about Ichigo being able to stack his amps and Naruto being able to stack at least 2 at once, I'd say he has the advantage. Should Ichigo be capable of stacking all 3 at once, he takes it.

The next point is an actual argument for Ichigo’s high temperature. The trillion degree calc is just blatantly not accepted and not useable, shame on whichever Bleach goon brought that up. However, the heat of Ichigo’s Black Getsuga is far I’ll far beyond Naruto’s resistances. Thanks to Klub Outside, we know that Royd Yhwach was only 70-80% of actual Yhwach’s capabilities (aka real Yhwach has better abilities, resistances, and power). Royd Yhwach was able to withstand the 15 million degree C passive heat aura of Yama’s Bankai. Meanwhile, Ichigo’s Black Getsuga was able to burn the actual Yhwach. Meaning that FB Bankai Ichigo’s Black Getsuga would have heat on the order of millions of degrees C, which would vaporize Naruto on impact, as Naruto’s accepted heat resistances on wiki are nowhere closer to that value. All of this means is that if Ichigo tags Naruto with a single Black Getsuga, it’s victory for Ichigo.

I basically disagree with giving Royd heat resistance comparable to Yamamoto's bankai since the farther away one is from the source, the lower the temperature, Royd even says something along the lines of "it's burning me even from this distance". Though he wasn't very far away there would still be a significant drop in the temperature he's resisting but this isn't the thread to talk about this. Either way, Ichigo's heat with GT will still be far above what Naruto's resistance can take, whether it instantly evaporates him or not, it isn't what he'll want to get hit by, using clones as a meat shield will only go so far.

Lastly, I’d like to address the corruption points since 1) the Bleach supporters cannot articulate that point to save their lives and 2) the Naruto supporters are misunderstanding how Hollow corruption functions. Hollow corruption does take immediate effect on those without antibodies when it’s delivered in high enough dosages. We see this verbatim with the Hollow pills Kisuke distributes to the Captains, as the second they Hollowfy their Bankai, the Sternritter fountain blood from their bodies and cease functioning (as seen with Cang Du and BG9). However, this is not the case for all Sternritter, exceptionally powerful Schrift holders (like Bambi and Quilge for example) have some level of resistance to this corruption. When Komamura’s Bankai Hollowfies Bambi don’t adversely affected at all, and Quilge is able to incorporate Ayon (one of the stronger Hollows alive in the series at this point) into his very being without adverse affects. I bring this up to dispel the notion that Hollow corruption is this slow steady disease. It is very much quick, almost instant, in high dosages for those that lack sufficient antibodies and/or the proper resistances. So, the reason Quilge doesn’t get Hollow corrupted GG by Ichigo is because he has the capability to resist the corruption (as seen by being able to incorporate Ayon), and as for the Bambis we know they possess the capability to resist as well (we see this with Bambietta, and the rest of the troupe are rather comparable to each other). Furthermore, True Shikai Ichigo has mastery over his powers, his Hollow powers normally lay dormant in True Shikai (as seen with how he had to wake White up), and until he fights Yhwach he’s constantly holding back as to not kill the Sternritter. All of the instances of “but why didn’t Ichigo auto Hollow corruption GG them” are easily explained away by the people he fights having capabilities of resisting said corruption or Ichigo actively trying not to kill them. After all, the very plot significant reason that no one could steal Ichigo’s Bankai was due to his immense Hollow power that intertwined with his Shinigami powers. So, yes Naruto, who lacks any resistance to Hollow corruption, would very shortly after the battle starts begin to weaken and deteriorate as his very soul becomes poisoned by Hollow reiatsu.

Can't necessarily refute this as there's serious sense being made in this analysis. Only problem will be how it's consistently stressed that Quincies have no antibodies but the evidence shown more than suffices to indicate some Quincies are outliers.
Question though, can Ichigo actually deliver fatal amounts of hollow poison since he's always suppressing it?

Putting all this together, I believe there’s good reason to claim Ichigo takes it here. Superior speed amp techniques, blatant one shot techniques he can spam, as well as a passive Hollow corruption that’ll make Naruto weaker as the fight goes on, leads me to believe Ichigo should take this. Without means to blitz and one shot Ichigo, the fight will inevitably drag out long enough for Ichigo to tag a weakened Naruto with a Black Getsuga, turning him to vapor.

Took you long enough. Brilliant analysis honestly. Ichigo has far more options he can reliably pull off available to him.

Voting Ichigo for Arc's reasons.

 

[Raiden_Azno]

Read it and weep

Give me the context of this, does it hurt anyone? Quantify this heat.

He can literally both fire AOEs that spawn AOEs and just hit them with AOE inducing strikes. Plus omnidirectional attacks aren't new for Ichigo, he deflected MILLIONS of paper-thin petals from Senbonzakura Kageyoshi coming at him all at once from every side while being comparable to him if not superior in speed. Huge ass clones are a field day for him.

Equal speed and the clones are in fact amped.

I'll get to this later, it's very late for me rn.

cool.

That was the ink was it not? Also that's not sealing, just a form of paralysis, and Ichigo can still fire GT with limited movement.

Magnetism is different blud. Uses the power of attraction

As I said above, the numbers are not a problem, and the AOE vs Grimmjow is faced forward, not a big ass explosion with scalar force.

with equal speed, he isn't getting them all. They swarm him from all sides.

Not. Death. Manip. Or. Corruption.

Yes they can do this under Death Manip and Corruption.

Again, gonna get to this later

cool.

His keys state that his max is 266 with no further amps, and I already explained why such a gap is menial.

You do not know how fast Naruto will get this amp.

Prove it was offensive and not just spatial warping. Ichigo's can shatter the Gargantia's walls, Guy's ain't shit to that.

He ran at him?....Do you want me to say Naruto chakra's was expanding space curvature?

 

[Raiden_Azno]

I'll have to get to everything else later....Busy unfortunately

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I disagree on the speed aspect. For one I don't think you can combine shunpo and sonido. The only time we were given information that ichigo used sonido was in his vasto lorde form. Also naruto is starting in base or spsm, I don't think ichigo would be able to keep up when he stacks kurama cloak

It’s stated in CFYOW (memes aside it actually is).

 

[karo_senpaii]

It’s stated in CFYOW (memes aside it actually is).

if it is then fair but i still don't think he has the advantage. shunshin+kurama claok+boil release and possibly nature energy

 

[KaydeeX]

Thanks to Klub Outside, we know that Royd Yhwach was only 70-80% of actual Yhwach’s capabilities (aka real Yhwach has better abilities, resistances, and power). Royd Yhwach was able to withstand the 15 million degree C passive heat aura of Yama’s Bankai. Meanwhile, Ichigo’s Black Getsuga was able to burn the actual Yhwach. Meaning that FB Bankai Ichigo’s Black Getsuga would have heat on the order of millions of degrees C, which would vaporize Naruto on impact, as Naruto’s accepted heat resistances on wiki are nowhere closer to that value. All of this means is that if Ichigo tags Naruto with a single Black Getsuga, it’s victory for Ichigo.

iirc unlike Sternritter Y, who survived Yamamoto's heat due to his Blut Vene, Yhwach was unable to activate his own Blut Vene in time, due to being caught by surprise/off guard and left vulnerable to attack.

 

[Duedate8898]

Question, I don't care much to actually go one way or the other here, but if this is Ichigo after he gets his Zanpakutō restored, why would he have Bringer Light still? Ginjo stole Ichigo's fullbring powers, shouldn't that include abilities such as Bringer Light?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

iirc unlike Sternritter Y, who survived Yamamoto's heat due to his Blut Vene, Yhwach was unable to activate his own Blut Vene in time, due to being caught by surprise/off guard and left vulnerable to attack.

1) it’s an unquantifiable difference anyway since you’d have Yhwach > Royd < Blut Royd, 2) I only made a claim on Ichigo having relative heat scaling anyway, even being less than a percent as hot as Yama’s Bankai would vaporize Naruto with Naruto’s current heat resistances, 3) Yhwach wasn’t off guard, and 4) it’s accepted that Ichigo was possibly matching Yhwach’s Blut with Blut of his own. Main point is, that’s not a defeater to my argument of Ichigo having heat relativity to Bankai Yama.

if it is then fair but i still don't think he has the advantage. shunshin+kurama claok+boil release and possibly nature energy

We don’t accept the cloak giving him a major speed amp at all for his teen SP self, since we accept that Naruto’s base form is likely (or just flat out is) relative to Sasuke, who can keep up with cloaked Naruto. So, I disagree with Naruto having an equal speed amps to Ichigo’s.

Question, I don't care much to actually go one way or the other here, but if this is Ichigo after he gets his Zanpakutō restored, why would he have Bringer Light still? Ginjo stole Ichigo's fullbring powers, shouldn't that include abilities such as Bringer Light?

It’s explicitly stated that his Fullbring Bankai is enhanced by his Fullbring, and Rukia states that Ginjo only stole the surface powers, and didn’t take all of Ichigo’s powers. Ichigo still has Fullbring powers as per what’s accepted on his profile as well, so even if you disagree with what’s stated in the manga it doesn’t matter much since we debate based on the profiles.

 

[KaydeeX]

1) it’s an unquantifiable difference anyway since you’d have Yhwach > Royd < Blut Royd, 2) I only made a claim on Ichigo having relative heat scaling anyway, even being less than a percent as hot as Yama’s Bankai would vaporize Naruto with Naruto’s current heat resistances

It’s an unquantifiable large difference, so large that stern Y stated he would have gotten vaporized on the spot so I don’t think there would be any relative heat scaling here

3) Yhwach wasn’t off guard

Idk man, my memories are a bit foggy but wasn’t Yhwach caught in a a brief shock suspense on how Ichigo could stop his attack with blut vene
He couldn’t even react

it’s accepted that Ichigo was possibly matching Yhwach’s Blut with Blut of his own.

Blut for Blut

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Idk man, my memories are a bit foggy but wasn’t Yhwach caught in a a brief shock suspense on how Ichigo could stop his attack with blut vene
He couldn’t even react

No he explicitly raised his arm to block the attack (meaning he likely had Blut active as relevant for the heat scaling) his shock came from seeing Ichigo use Quincy powers, not by being caught off guard.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Outside of the pills have we seen Hollow Corruption just start to weaken somebody? There's been plenty of Hollow fights in the verse I don't recall them just passively weakening people

 

[BlackeJan]

Naruto’s base form is likely (or just flat out is) relative to Sasuke, who can keep up with cloaked Naruto

Base Naruto should be considering he was keeping up with RinneSharigan Sasuke while not trying to kill him and being a lot more tired then Sasuke

 

[KillerNerd007]

And he's still in his Shinigami form here so why does hollow powers matter?

Iirc, after breaking out of Quilge's jail, there was no one left to fight? Even then, it's not like he was engaged in combat first then saw/sensed Yhwach and decided he wanted that smoke did he?

I checked and the stuff you mentioned are in his pre-timeskip key and actually reflects on his profile.

Pretty sure something as significant as 10x will reflect on his profile but it's just "higher". If it ain't there, it probably breaks the scaling which makes it an outlier. I vaguely remember either Gin or Arc saying this when it was brought up in the revision threads

He has his Hollow powers mixed in this form.

... he directly said he saw Yhwach and thought he was the leader, which he was correct.

This is more so arguing for "what's in the profile", thought we were going for what's in their profile or something.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Alright, I'm back in it.

Naruto isn't resisting Hollow Corruption.

You're gonna say "what about Quincies" Quincies NEED to decon Hollow Reiatsu or they get corrupted.

Oh damn if so yeah, that makes sense why they don't always die to it. And that means no, Naruto can't resist.

 

[KillerNerd007]

Question, I don't care much to actually go one way or the other here, but if this is Ichigo after he gets his Zanpakutō restored, why would he have Bringer Light still? Ginjo stole Ichigo's fullbring powers, shouldn't that include abilities such as Bringer Light?

His Fullbring powers are mixed with his Shinigami powers, so whilst Ginjo stole a layer of it, the ones mixed with his Shinigami side, remained his Fullbring abilities. We see this with Bringer Light being used in Quinge's jail in both manga and anime.

 

[Duedate8898]

It’s explicitly stated that his Fullbring Bankai is enhanced by his Fullbring, and Rukia states that Ginjo only stole the surface powers, and didn’t take all of Ichigo’s powers. Ichigo still has Fullbring powers as per what’s accepted on his profile as well, so even if you disagree with what’s stated in the manga it doesn’t matter much since we debate based on the profiles.

Eh, saying we only debate based on the profiles is a bit odd for Ichigo's profile as his ability keys don't match up with his Stat keys. When he is in possession of which abilities isn't evident without either knowing the series yourself or being told so. As Ichigo doesn't possess anything but his Fullbring abilities in his first key, or how he doesn't have access to creating the Getsuga Jūjishō until his True Zanpakuto key, or how he doesn't have acceess to the Gran Rey Cero Getsuga Tenshō until his Merged Form key, etc.

If Ichigo still maintains his powers, he still maintains his powers, but the profile isn't very clear on that