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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Pre Production to Production won’t take 2 years. It normally takes 6 months and at worst 9 months. CoV push it 2 years? Nah. Jaymes is capping, specially when Masashi Kudo said they finished the animation for something they will show soon.

Crossing fingers is the Bleach trailer at Jump Festa.

rmc25rL_d.webp
 
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Mortal Kombat vs Bleach Kubo may have rip off the One Being lore from Mortal Kombat lol

1. The One Being who was similar to the Soul King, got betrayed by the Elder Gods (Noble Houses) and cut into pieces.

2. Both of them were cut into pieces and use their power to split their original existence into different realms.

3. Fragments of the One Being fell to this realms and humans born with these fragments get super human powers like Fullbringers.

4. Anyone who collects and absorbs pieces of the One Being can obtain its power.

5. The main goal of Shinnok was to obtained the power of the One Being and fused the realms to their original existence as one.

Liu Kang ended up absorbing all the Elder Gods and One Being and undid the Soul King’s feat… I mean the One Being feat that Shinnok did after absorbing the One Being pieces.

Now if only the anime would give us this feat on panel…

NO0Ozz.gif
 
Almost like a lot of eastern inspired/eastern based media draw from the same method/religious influences.

You gonna tell me Bleach stole Buddhist symbolism from Naruto?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Almost like a lot of eastern inspired/eastern based media draw from the same method/religious influences.

You gonna tell me Bleach stole Buddhist symbolism from Naruto?
Click to expand...
Taking a unique lore structure element piece by piece isn't the same as using a public domain work and warping your own story around it.

You mean to tell me that buddhist had a deity who was betrayed, cut to pieces by a group of people, split the realms, create humans with superhuman powers with its on fragments and ended up with a devil being that wanted to fuse all the realms back together to their previous existence?
 
AppleLord said:
Taking a unique lore structure element piece by piece isn't the same as using a public domain work and warping your own story around it.

You mean to tell me that buddhist had a deity who was betrayed, cut to pieces by a group of people, split the realms, create humans with superhuman powers with its on fragments and ended up with a devil being that wanted to fuse all the realms back together to their previous existence?
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I was being snarky :p
 
So, I'm here to gather y'all's thoughts about sumn that highkey affects how we scale LAA characters to TYBW characters. Lemme explain:

Way back in ye olden days, Toshiro tells us how whenever Captains/Lieutenants enter WotL they must come wearing Gentei Reiin, which essentially nerfs them to 20% their usual physical capacity. Additionally, it's heavily implied Ichigo's deputy badge functions the same, which makes sense that SS would want to keep a Gentei Reiin on Ichigo when he's in WotL because he's certainly of a level that warrants it.

The thought process is as follows, the people who came to watch Ichigo during the finale of LAA and Ichigo himself were acting at 20%. Lemme further explain:

We know Ichigo has his deputy badge when he starts the final fights of LAA, the end chapter sketch reaffirms this, we see his badge during the fight with Ginjo, and we get audio confirmation he kept the deputy badge on him at the end of the arc. It also makes sense that his deputy badge would still be functioning at this point for two reasons: first Kubo draws when the badge breaks/stops restricting his powers in the Full Hollow Ichigo scene in the chapter sketches (which he drew it in tact for FB Bankai Ichigo), and second the Captains were sent to further monitor Ichigo (meaning SS fully intended on continuing the purpose of the badge).

Logically, Ichigo should have a restriction placed on him during the finale of LAA, as his reiatsu is high enough to warrant such action as Toshiro indicates far earlier in the series. However, is there any other evidence to say Ichigo's deputy badge is functioning as a restrictor? Short answer is yes, but lemme explain:

We are told that Ichigo didn't take his deputy badge with him to Hueco Mundo. Furthermore, Quilge has daten on Ichigo's battle with Ebern in WotL when Ichigo still had his deputy badge on him, yet Quilge is surprised that Ichigo could be as strong as he is and as fast as he is. It's seemingly like Ichigo is stronger and faster than the battle data of him against Ebern in WotL indicates, Quilge heavily implies that based on Ichigo's WotL battle performance that he should've been able to handle Ichigo in his Vollstandig Monster form.

Combining that context with the earlier context regarding the badge's function and Gentei Reiin, it seems increasingly obvious that the explanation for Ichigo's apparent "jump in stats" in Quilge's eyes would be explained away by the fact his badge wasn't there to restrict him in HM. The obvious implication being Deputy Badge Ichigo = a fifth of Ichigo without the Deputy Badge.

Same case should be applied to the Captains, as it is Shinigami law for them to enter WotL with their power restrained to 20%. I don't think this changes scaling much at all: 20% Renji defeated a featless character, 20% Ikkaku defeated fodder, 20% Kenpachi defeated a featless character, 20% Toshiro defeated a featless character (maybe you can argue Yukio ~ restricted FB Shikai Ichigo's speed), and 20% Rukia loses to fodder.

The only scaling that is affected is Ichigo's (albeit he doesn't have much scaling to other characters, he's pm a top tier of the verse) and Byakuya (since at 20% he matched Tsukishima who could fight on par with an Ichigo who regained his Shinigami powers, albeit Byakuya used double speed, so it's more like 40% Byakuya ~ Tsukishima >~ Psuedo Bankai Ichigo). Admittedly, this doesn't change much, but I'm curious if y'all think it's worth me going through the scaling to see if it's consistent with Candice's lightning related statements. My foresight tells me this could lead to a relativistic FB Bankai Ichigo and some MHS go to MHS+.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
So, I'm here to gather y'all's thoughts about sumn that highkey affects how we scale LAA characters to TYBW characters. Lemme explain:

Way back in ye olden days, Toshiro tells us how whenever Captains/Lieutenants enter WotL they must come wearing Gentei Reiin, which essentially nerfs them to 20% their usual physical capacity. Additionally, it's heavily implied Ichigo's deputy badge functions the same, which makes sense that SS would want to keep a Gentei Reiin on Ichigo when he's in WotL because he's certainly of a level that warrants it.

The thought process is as follows, the people who came to watch Ichigo during the finale of LAA and Ichigo himself were acting at 20%. Lemme further explain:

We know Ichigo has his deputy badge when he starts the final fights of LAA, the end chapter sketch reaffirms this, we see his badge during the fight with Ginjo, and we get audio confirmation he kept the deputy badge on him at the end of the arc. It also makes sense that his deputy badge would still be functioning at this point for two reasons: first Kubo draws when the badge breaks/stops restricting his powers in the Full Hollow Ichigo scene in the chapter sketches (which he drew it in tact for FB Bankai Ichigo), and second the Captains were sent to further monitor Ichigo (meaning SS fully intended on continuing the purpose of the badge).

Logically, Ichigo should have a restriction placed on him during the finale of LAA, as his reiatsu is high enough to warrant such action as Toshiro indicates far earlier in the series. However, is there any other evidence to say Ichigo's deputy badge is functioning as a restrictor? Short answer is yes, but lemme explain:

We are told that Ichigo didn't take his deputy badge with him to Hueco Mundo. Furthermore, Quilge has daten on Ichigo's battle with Ebern in WotL when Ichigo still had his deputy badge on him, yet Quilge is surprised that Ichigo could be as strong as he is and as fast as he is. It's seemingly like Ichigo is stronger and faster than the battle data of him against Ebern in WotL indicates, Quilge heavily implies that based on Ichigo's WotL battle performance that he should've been able to handle Ichigo in his Vollstandig Monster form.

Combining that context with the earlier context regarding the badge's function and Gentei Reiin, it seems increasingly obvious that the explanation for Ichigo's apparent "jump in stats" in Quilge's eyes would be explained away by the fact his badge wasn't there to restrict him in HM. The obvious implication being Deputy Badge Ichigo = a fifth of Ichigo without the Deputy Badge.

Same case should be applied to the Captains, as it is Shinigami law for them to enter WotL with their power restrained to 20%. I don't think this changes scaling much at all: 20% Renji defeated a featless character, 20% Ikkaku defeated fodder, 20% Kenpachi defeated a featless character, 20% Toshiro defeated a featless character (maybe you can argue Yukio ~ restricted FB Shikai Ichigo's speed), and 20% Rukia loses to fodder.

The only scaling that is affected is Ichigo's (albeit he doesn't have much scaling to other characters, he's pm a top tier of the verse) and Byakuya (since at 20% he matched Tsukishima who could fight on par with an Ichigo who regained his Shinigami powers, albeit Byakuya used double speed, so it's more like 40% Byakuya ~ Tsukishima >~ Psuedo Bankai Ichigo). Admittedly, this doesn't change much, but I'm curious if y'all think it's worth me going through the scaling to see if it's consistent with Candice's lightning related statements. My foresight tells me this could lead to a relativistic FB Bankai Ichigo and some MHS go to MHS+.
Click to expand...
No.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
So, I'm here to gather y'all's thoughts about sumn that highkey affects how we scale LAA characters to TYBW characters. Lemme explain:

Way back in ye olden days, Toshiro tells us how whenever Captains/Lieutenants enter WotL they must come wearing Gentei Reiin, which essentially nerfs them to 20% their usual physical capacity. Additionally, it's heavily implied Ichigo's deputy badge functions the same, which makes sense that SS would want to keep a Gentei Reiin on Ichigo when he's in WotL because he's certainly of a level that warrants it.

The thought process is as follows, the people who came to watch Ichigo during the finale of LAA and Ichigo himself were acting at 20%. Lemme further explain:

We know Ichigo has his deputy badge when he starts the final fights of LAA, the end chapter sketch reaffirms this, we see his badge during the fight with Ginjo, and we get audio confirmation he kept the deputy badge on him at the end of the arc. It also makes sense that his deputy badge would still be functioning at this point for two reasons: first Kubo draws when the badge breaks/stops restricting his powers in the Full Hollow Ichigo scene in the chapter sketches (which he drew it in tact for FB Bankai Ichigo), and second the Captains were sent to further monitor Ichigo (meaning SS fully intended on continuing the purpose of the badge).

Logically, Ichigo should have a restriction placed on him during the finale of LAA, as his reiatsu is high enough to warrant such action as Toshiro indicates far earlier in the series. However, is there any other evidence to say Ichigo's deputy badge is functioning as a restrictor? Short answer is yes, but lemme explain:

We are told that Ichigo didn't take his deputy badge with him to Hueco Mundo. Furthermore, Quilge has daten on Ichigo's battle with Ebern in WotL when Ichigo still had his deputy badge on him, yet Quilge is surprised that Ichigo could be as strong as he is and as fast as he is. It's seemingly like Ichigo is stronger and faster than the battle data of him against Ebern in WotL indicates, Quilge heavily implies that based on Ichigo's WotL battle performance that he should've been able to handle Ichigo in his Vollstandig Monster form.

Combining that context with the earlier context regarding the badge's function and Gentei Reiin, it seems increasingly obvious that the explanation for Ichigo's apparent "jump in stats" in Quilge's eyes would be explained away by the fact his badge wasn't there to restrict him in HM. The obvious implication being Deputy Badge Ichigo = a fifth of Ichigo without the Deputy Badge.

Same case should be applied to the Captains, as it is Shinigami law for them to enter WotL with their power restrained to 20%. I don't think this changes scaling much at all: 20% Renji defeated a featless character, 20% Ikkaku defeated fodder, 20% Kenpachi defeated a featless character, 20% Toshiro defeated a featless character (maybe you can argue Yukio ~ restricted FB Shikai Ichigo's speed), and 20% Rukia loses to fodder.

The only scaling that is affected is Ichigo's (albeit he doesn't have much scaling to other characters, he's pm a top tier of the verse) and Byakuya (since at 20% he matched Tsukishima who could fight on par with an Ichigo who regained his Shinigami powers, albeit Byakuya used double speed, so it's more like 40% Byakuya ~ Tsukishima >~ Psuedo Bankai Ichigo). Admittedly, this doesn't change much, but I'm curious if y'all think it's worth me going through the scaling to see if it's consistent with Candice's lightning related statements. My foresight tells me this could lead to a relativistic FB Bankai Ichigo and some MHS go to MHS+.
Click to expand...
How strange, I thought there was a statement that the badge was restricting Ichigo. I agree, because if I'm not mistaken in the fullbringer saga there was still remnants of Ichigo's reiatsu on the badge
 
I just want to point out that Quilge does know why he's not able to do anything about Ichigo's bankai, it's because to fight against it he can't open Blut Arteriae because its his speed that forces him to use Blut Vene as he can't react otherwise. Furthermore he states that an attack not imbued with blut arteriae can't hold up against a bankai.
He also noted that the only thing he did get from his daten was to not let Ichigo go into bankai as they couldn't medalize it. Ichigo also notes that they could be afraid of bankai, which might be a dropped plot point because while Quilge seemed to lose his shit implying they did, other sternritter don't seem bothered by bankai at all?
His daten was not exactly complete too, he only knew Ichigo>>Ebern, and we see that Quilge is also >> any random arrancar. Maybe he didn't account for that Ichigo was quite a bit stronger than their daten, because they shouldn't have any daten on the WotL stuff.

Now we assume that Fullbring Ichigo was around Tsukishima's level (feats), and was around the level he was around after beating Ulquiorra (statements). Byakuya being around Tsukishima's level then doesn't make sense if they did get there with limiters on, because its been stated multiple times throughout the series that a massive increase in power takes time. Pre timeskip Byakuya was around or below post Ulquiorra Ichigo (who even Unohana noted was pretty above a normal captain) and we know that Byakuya didn't get 5 times stronger in that time period because Kenpachi didn't (he only gets stronger as he goes near death, and nothing notable happened in the timeskip), and Byakuya and Kenpachi post timeskip would logically be comparable, because of story structure. Of course one could argue that Byakuya trained, but again, he didn't train to become 5 times stronger (we know when that kind of training is possible, which is during a Royal guard training. Why? As Nodt confused his bankai for shikai). It's heavily implied throughout the entire series that that kind of training is simply not possible.
Basically Byakuya (pretimeskip) =/<Post Ulquiorra Ichigo~Fullbring Ichigo~Tsukishima~Byakuya*(X times stronger). X can't be 0.2 because it's been heavily implied that Kenpachi and Byakuya having this comical sort of rivalry are around the same level throughout the entire time we see them (till their stories branch off in Royal Palace and Mugen) and since Kenpachi didn't get stronger (he doesn't train, and he only gets stronger when near death at this point of time) Byakuya didn't get significantly stronger either. Further backed up by statements throughout the series at the constant surprise that Ichigo got that strong in that small amount of time, statements that Toshiro would surpass Shunsui in like multiple centuries, (and we know that if someone actually could get massively strong in mere 2 years then statements like that would not have been made).

All that said, while yes I do think that Ichigo was limited during his scuffle with Ebern, I don't think Ichigo was limited during his fight with Ginjo, nor were any of the captains. Why?
1. Ginjo absorbed his power, and it was implied both were around the same level. Ginjo seemed somewhat stronger than shikai Ichigo and somewhat weaker than Bankai Ichigo.
2. SS only knew that the people they were sent to were dangerous criminals and considering Sui Feng's strong reaction, were considered more of a threat than they actually were. I think CFYOW also states this?
3. Most importantly it is heavily implied (or even stated I think) that the captains specifically were there to see which side Ichigo took. If they would have gone without the limiters as a precaution anyways, as they were there to kill both Ginjo and Ichigo. That's why 4 captains showed up in the first place.
4. "Oh but they ALWAYS have their limiters" no they don't, FKT took place in the real world and it was clearly stated when they expect strong enemies they come with limiters removed. They went there to (potentially) kill Ichigo and Ginjo, one of who defeated a guy who shat on half the Gotei 13. Why won't they go without removing their limiters?

I do agree with the badge acting as a limiter and the story suggesting it probably was similar to a limiter used by the shinigami in percentages, but Fullbring Ichigo was not being limited. They had no reason to keep limiting an Ichigo which was powerless at the time, and also making the sword if they knew he actually gained some new powers.
 
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Just high tier teleportation/dimensional travel?

Bleach inner worlds aren't physical pocket dimensions that reside in their body, they're abstract in nature, as Reio said.
 
Based on? We literally see Old Man use dimensional travel to go there with Ichigo. Unless there is a statement of the inner world being abstract, pocket dimension makes far more sense.
 
Don't think Pocket Dimension and Dimensional travel allow you to enter basically what is the soul. Contextually that doesn't make much sense, if anything that's like me saying entering a dream isn't dream Manipulation but simply Dimensional travel.

Unless we can assume Old man Zan can also appear in people's mind, soul and dreams via Dimensional travel like Santa.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Based on? We literally see Old Man use dimensional travel to go there with Ichigo. Unless there is a statement of the inner world being abstract, pocket dimension makes far more sense.
Click to expand...
No, it being a physical pocket dimension makes exactly zero sense

It's literally said by Isshin that you have to put your mind into your Zanpakuto to enter your inner world, the Zanpakuto being a part of the soul, both the mind and soul are abstract in nature.

We see Ichigo's inner world change depending on his mental state and Zangetsu literally says that its appearance represents his mental state, why would a physical world that isn't abstract do that?

Ichigo can also breathe under water in his inner world, even though Shinigami factually need oxygen to breathe.

That's abstract.

He's clearly not just being teleported to a different space.
 
Purgy said:
No, it being a physical pocket dimension makes exactly zero sense
Click to expand...
An opinion
Purgy said:
It's literally said by Isshin that you have to put your mind into your Zanpakuto to enter your inner world, the Zanpakuto being a part of the soul, both the mind and soul are abstract in nature.
Click to expand...
Just because it’s connected to his mind doesn’t mean it’s not physical. Why else do you think the training that takes place in there is physically reflected on Ichigo? Because it is straight up happening to him.

The mind and soul are not abstract in nature by default. You need to prove that they are. Souls in Bleach are blatantly physical things made of a different type of matter.
Purgy said:
We see Ichigo's inner world change depending on his mental state and Zangetsu literally says that its appearance represents his mental state, why would a physical world that isn't abstract do that?
Click to expand...
You realise that it’s still Ichigo’s inner world right? Whether it’s a pocket dimension or not, it is still his. It’s supposed to reflect his mental state but that doesn’t stop it from being a physical place.
Purgy said:
Ichigo can also breathe under water in his inner world, even though Shinigami factually need oxygen to breathe.
Click to expand...
The water is irrelevant. Ichigo believed he would fall when he first went there and he did. Once he decided that shit didn’t matter, it didn’t. Same thing with the water.
Purgy said:
That's abstract.
Click to expand...
No. It isn’t. That’s Ichigo subconsciously not killing himself. He knows he is in his inner world, what it is and how it works, aka “whatever he says, goes”. The only thing there that ever harms him is his Zanpakuto Spirit ……. until he decides it doesn’t anymore.
Purgy said:
He's clearly not just being teleported to a different space.
Click to expand...
Except that we see Old Man quite literally physically bring Ichigo there with shadow travel. This means the inner world is a physical place and you can go there dimensional travel.

Everything you brought up doesn’t disprove my argument at all and instead has direct contradictions. Mine doesn’t.
 
I mean, zanpakutos are abstract beings, they represent the powers of a Shinigami and even their inner world is the representation of their powers, an example is Hisagi. Zangetsu claims that Hollow Ichigo is the personification of Ichigo's instinct.

I thought Zangetsu had stopped time before using the shadows
 
An opinion
Click to expand...
Like everything you said, weird attempt at a dismissal
Just because it’s connected to his mind doesn’t mean it’s not physical. Why else do you think the training that takes place in there is physically reflected on Ichigo? Because it is straight up happening to him.

The mind and soul are not abstract in nature by default. You need to prove that they are. Souls in Bleach are blatantly physical things made of a different type of matter.
Click to expand...
It's not just connected to his mind, again, Isshin verbatim says that you have to put your mind into your Zanpakuto to enter your inner world

Saying it's only "connected" is you being disingenuous.

The mind and soul are abstract concepts, even if you want to say "souls" aren't in Bleach because characters can physically interact with them, the mind certainly is.
You realise that it’s still Ichigo’s inner world right? Whether it’s a pocket dimension or not, it is still his. It’s supposed to reflect his mental state but that doesn’t stop it from being a physical place.
Click to expand...
So now you're saying that Ichigo has some passive spatial manipulation, what baseless assumption will you create next so that you don't have to concede?
The water is irrelevant. Ichigo believed he would fall when he first went there and he did. Once he decided that shit didn’t matter, it didn’t. Same thing with the water.
Click to expand...
No, the water is very much relevant, If Ichigo was being teleported somewhere physically then he wouldn't be able to breathe under water, we're directly told that Shinigami can drown, multiple times.

Now you're saying Ichigo has some weird reality warping/physics alteration, yet another baseless assumption necessary to support your argument.

Ichigo believed he would fall because that's logically what you'd assume when you're brought to a world that's on its side, it was then explained by Zangetsu that the balance of his inner world was unstable before which is why he fell, further illustrating that this isn't some physical dimension.

Ichigo didn't just create gravity by imagining that he was going to fall like your post implies.
No. It isn’t. That’s Ichigo subconsciously not killing himself. He knows he is in his inner world, what it is and how it works, aka “whatever he says, goes”. The only thing there that ever harms him is his Zanpakuto Spirit ……. until he decides it doesn’t anymore.
Click to expand...
Not true at all, it's verbatim said by Zangetsu that as long as Ichigo is accepting of it, he can't be harmed by his blade
Except that we see Old Man quite literally physically bring Ichigo there with shadow travel. This means the inner world is a physical place and you can go there dimensional travel.
Click to expand...
Or Zangetsu can bring people to abstract places with Shadow
Or Zangetsu just brought Ichigo's consciousness to his inner world and Kubo portrayed it in a way that it appears he was physically bringing him

Let's not forget that time appears to halt when Zangetsu does it, so lets not act like he's just doing your run of the mill Shadow and teleporting Ichigo to a different dimension.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To TLDR your argument, you're saying Ichigo has;

Passive Spatial Manipulation
Some form of Physics Manipulation
Reality Warping, he imagined Zangetsu's blade not harming him in his inner world, so it didn't (apparently), even though it's established that Zanpakuto are literally the persons soul and thus, as long as they accept it, they can't harm themself.

In contrast, my argument doesn't rely on weird baseless assumptions and in fact is all but stated by the manga.

Love when people argue for the sake of arguing, no doubt someone would debate me whether the Earth is flat here, not sure what I expect though, people come here to argue without purpose, who can stonewall for longer, that's typically how it goes.
 
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