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I don't think I have much stake in this revision.
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Bald man upgrade (Spoilers, not Saitama)
- Thread starter TimmyTurnero
- Start date
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literally nobody, medeus didn't even respond to my points, and doesn't even acknowledge the inconsistencies with the profiles
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Shosa is 2-C for scaling to 18 AND krillin, nearly eliminated 18 yet krillin was still able to keep up with that same 18, and defeat rabbit man who knocked 18 on her ass and visibly damaged her, not to mention he was deflecting energy blast that took out a 2-C shosa.
Why is shosa 2-C for fighting kettol listed on his profile if kettol himself is not 2-C? "Damaged base caulifla", how is that high 4-C?? That should be a full 2-C feat, matching shosa in combat who krillin and 18 defeated, why don't they both scale? See how weird this is?
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Maybe those who are 2-C scaling from 18 but also fought Krillin should be downgraded if they were defeated by Krillin and/or if their was no evidence of the character(s) going all out.
Also, I think the opposite is true, Dragon Ball consistently has tropes of "Durability drops exponentially when distracted or relaxed" and it's a common characteristic for stronger characters to get enjoyment in every fight even when fighting much weaker opponents. Especially true in Goku's case. 18 also holds back against weaker opponents due to her wanting to see how strong her husband has grown as she is a lot stronger than Krillin otherwise. So if anything, characters going all out consistently requires more evidence than characters holding back.
Also, I think the opposite is true, Dragon Ball consistently has tropes of "Durability drops exponentially when distracted or relaxed" and it's a common characteristic for stronger characters to get enjoyment in every fight even when fighting much weaker opponents. Especially true in Goku's case. 18 also holds back against weaker opponents due to her wanting to see how strong her husband has grown as she is a lot stronger than Krillin otherwise. So if anything, characters going all out consistently requires more evidence than characters holding back.
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Agreed. I'm not an especially big fan of "burden of proof hot potato" but the reality is that if taken that way, we would expect characters with significant power differences to gib weaker ones constantly, but that never seems to be the case in this verse and it isn't because they all have comparable power. We see this in particular with transformations not being used until required, but even in the same form we hear things all the time like "it's time to get serious" etc.
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So just because it's krillin they need a downgrade? Despite krillin outperforming a 2-C 18 in the fight? Yeah ok, this is literally just incredulity, how about you prove that they are holding back so much that the aren't 2-C anymore, 18 was literally almost knocked out by that same fighter, i don't think she was "holding back".
That isn't what happened in the krillin and 18 fights though. Krillin specifically kept up with 2-C opponents.
What proves that? You literally just made that up, 18 is not in it for the fighting, she's in it because she literally has to, to protect her child. And again, she almost got knocked out once, and knocked down again by another opponent WITH her guard up.
No i disagree, because every time a characters gets a feat that you personally don't think should have, you just take the "holding back" route without sufficient evidence, even though the series literally goes against it multiple times, the series is going out of its way to tell us these characters got stronger, and you're just disregarding that entirely.
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The hoops you'd have to jump through to get this to work...
High 4-C Base Caulifla when SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Caulifla are comparable, thus making their base forms comparable due to being the same transformation? So what, Base Goku is now also High 4-C? Also I will stress again that if you're claiming they were holding back, you need to prove it.
This didn't happen at all in the examples that were given as proof for Krillin, Tien, and Roshi. There weren't cases of being distracted, especially relaxed, or any sort of "time to get serious" without transforming. Even more notably, a lot of the things said here are just asserted to be true without elaboration.
"18 also holds back against weaker opponents due to her wanting to see how strong her husband has grown as she is a lot stronger than Krillin otherwise." Based on... nothing. This is the equivalent of "dude, trust me." Are we going to ignore the genuine threat Shosa posed to 18 in the Tournament of Power? And the fact that 18 and Krillin constantly trained together leading up to the Tournament of Power?
The only characters that hold back to prolong a fight, by the way, are the likes of Goku, Vegeta, and 17. Even then in Goku's case, when he was recruiting fighters for Universe 7's team, it was stated he used Super Saiyan Blue as his way of gauging his opponents. It says nothing about his base form. Also Gohan, for instance, is a lot more serious when it comes to getting the job done. Yet Tien could take multiple attacks from him.
Genuinely, it'd be very disappointing if this thread got rejected by such a refusal to provide evidence. It only adds to my belief that this rejection is not due to concrete reasoning, but because this is how the characters have been rated before and thus it seems ridiculous to give them such a buff.
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Oh so was gohan holding back in the fight against tien and goku, despite it being a serious match to test his power? How do you interpret tien taking serious hits from base gohan, and by goku's own mouth "you handle piccolo" gohan having to interrupt his own fight to disrupt tien?? I'd love to hear it.
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Literally no evidence in this thread whatsoever, and just straight up ignoring the characters getting 2-C, but when the humans have the same feats, that doesn't fly, just because it's krillin lmao.
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I think it would have been better if we linked the actual feats and went a bit more in depth with them (Like Goku telling Tien to "Take care of Piccolo", which is pretty blatant)
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- Thread starter
- #53
On it.
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my bad
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Given the arguments, I think it looks quite appealing, but I'll be sticking around to check more stuff out, although I'm pretty neutral on Krillin scaling to tier 2, I think a better one would be better possibly 3-A with lots of prep
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The 3-A rating literally comes out of nowhere and "with lots of prep" is just... no
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- Thread starter
- #57
Might be me, but if im infinitely stronger than someone I would not be looking like this.
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Yeah that's the thing, we see visible effort from these characters
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It's just that I've always found Krillin much weaker than the others, although he has a description in the databook stating that his strength grows as a Super Saiyan
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That's the problem. The argument's from personal belief, not the actual feats
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- Thread starter
- #61
Op updated, staff may you look again?
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Also Ganos (the Universe 4 guy that Roshi did the greatest Kamehameha against) briefly fought against Base Goku in his base form, so that helps for Roshi's scaling
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There's no 3-A feat ever since you upgraded macrocosm stuff to tier 2-C. Should've thought about that before making upgrades.
Either these peeps are High 4-C based on katchin scaling or 2-C for macrocosm bs. There's nothing else in-between.
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- Thread starter
- #65
Link?
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- Thread starter
- #66
This here ^
Since you’re here, do you believe the updated OP is convincing?
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Sorry, it was a way to update the entire multiverse, although they were outdated, the verse deserved it.
But yes, maybe I should agree with what you quoted.
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https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxpqts8QU3GkVTeEIoNFLGXvsfyR19jW_D blocking hits from a goku and tanking one, who is trying to get to toppo to settle the score
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I frankly don't care overall, but a lot of the counterarguments are very bad, so agree with Clover on that.
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- Thread starter
- #71
Eh? Sorta a W?
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- Thread starter
- #73
Roshi also states he was growing strong enough to actually disturb Goku and the others, which wouldn’t work unless he was 2-C. I’ll add these justifications
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we can do other characters after, this should just be getting all the humans to 2-C
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As Deagon said, playing "Burden of proof hot potato" isn't really helping the cause. In your point of view, asking me to prove they're holding back is asking me to prove a positive while asking you to prove they weren't holding back is asking you to prove a negative. But in my point of view the opposite is true of worded differently. I'm asking you to prove that they're going all out which is a positive in my eyes, where as you're asking me to prove they aren't going all out which is asking me to prove a negative in my eyes. It wouldn't matter if Krillin was 5-B, High 4-C, 4-B, ect, 2-C characters can hold back to whatever and it's not like just because someone is capable of matching 2-C characters doesn't mean they are fighting with such levels in every sparring match or fight they're in. But again, if there isn't an unbiased way to debate what direction of the burden of proof, it might just be why bother?
One, some of those 2-C might not have been going all out; also, our scaling chains have gotten out of hand perhaps. Not every opponent who fought base Goku is actually on par with base Goku since Goku literally goofs off in most of his fights even against underpowered underdogs.
This is not only a bold accusation, but also a gross mischaracterization of me. Anyone who knows me properly knows I never intentionally, "Make things up." I misremember and misunderstand things, perhaps. But in this case, even during the Goku "Holding back with style going SSB Blue and seemingly making Krillin look equal to him in a Kamehameha clash" 18 was able to kick away the Kamehameha wave with ease, so the energy he was outputting was a lot weaker than 18's kick. 18 also said something about her being worried about Goku accidently killing Krillin. Even though Goku was clearly holding back but the forms made Krillin think he was going serious just so he'll feel motivated to keep fighting no matter how bad odds are against him. Also, 18 did have a sparring match before the tournament in which she stomped Krillin.
As for other fights, yes against some Pride Troopers she stomped, she was serious. And against Ribrianne, she was serious. But against Majora and Shosa, other opponents Krillin took out, she wanted to see Krillin do his best. Kale and Caulifa have 2-C scaling for other reasons, but the 2 of them were more than a match for like 4 Pride Troopers in a power beam struggle.
I'll just repoint to what I said above for this.
We are not downgrading Base Goku, even Base Goku is way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as of U6 saga. And even before that, base Goku kept up with Beerus when SSJ3 Goku, SSJ Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan couldn't even do anything. Further more, the same fight scene already had Base Goku get stronger randomly during the same fight when he was SSG earlier where it reverted with no decrease in power. Goku just holds back and goofs off a lot in ToP.
U6 Saiyans are part of the 2-C scaling for different reasons given Cabba in U6 with the girls being supposedly even stronger than him. Struggling against fodder Pride Troopers or Napapa might be outliers.
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I'd personally say claiming that the 2-C was holding back to High 4-C despite putting visible effort and (the big part) getting knocked out is far more far-fetched than the 2-C just using their 2-C powers,
Let's also not forget that this is also a Tien and Roshi Thread
Let's also not forget that this is also a Tien and Roshi Thread
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Speaking of which, I'm not sure if "Fighting a possessed Roshi" was also the best example used for Roshi upscaling from anyone.
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- Thread starter
- #80
It was Roshi fighting without limitations, in which Tien could not beat. He’s never noted to be stronger than usual.
Ge could make Goku hands “tingle” Goku stated his strength was unbelievable, fighting Roshi was fun, and that he never new he could be “this strong.
Goku also relied on Tien distracting the controller to actually beat Roshi. It seems unlikely for Goku to rely on this if his base form was enough.
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