Bald man upgrade (Spoilers, not Saitama)

[TiltedFN]

As Deagon said, playing "Burden of proof hot potato" isn't really helping the cause. In your point of view, asking me to prove they're holding back is asking me to prove a positive while asking you to prove they weren't holding back is asking you to prove a negative. But in my point of view the opposite is true of worded differently. I'm asking you to prove that they're going all out which is a positive in my eyes, where as you're asking me to prove they aren't going all out which is asking me to prove a negative in my eyes. It wouldn't matter if Krillin was 5-B, High 4-C, 4-B, ect, 2-C characters can hold back to whatever and it's not like just because someone is capable of matching 2-C characters doesn't mean they are fighting with such levels in every sparring match or fight they're in. But again, if there isn't an unbiased way to debate what direction of the burden of proof, it might just be why bother?

I think you do need to prove it because this is quite literally your own counterargument to every upgrade being proposed here, why do i need to prove they are going all out? Can characters not be 2-C without going all out every single moment? You say characters can hold back to whatever they want, but in these instances, we have proved that not to be the case, with characters showing visible damage, and visible struggle with characters.

One, some of those 2-C might not have been going all out; also, our scaling chains have gotten out of hand perhaps. Not every opponent who fought base Goku is actually on par with base Goku since Goku literally goofs off in most of his fights even against underpowered underdogs.

Again, "might not have been going all out" like i said, this is your only argument, can you provide to what degree these characters are holding back? Can you tell me why these 2-C characters have the rating they have for fighting more 2-C characters in which you're claiming are holding back? And no, i do not think you have proven this to be the case, android 18 got damaged ON GUARD, krillin beat that opponent, android 18 nearly got eliminated, on guard, trying to not get pushed back from energy blast, krillin fought alongside here and defeated shosa, this holding back thing is just so ratty.

This is not only a bold accusation, but also a gross mischaracterization of me. Anyone who knows me properly knows I never intentionally, "Make things up." I misremember and misunderstand things, perhaps. But in this case, even during the Goku "Holding back with style going SSB Blue and seemingly making Krillin look equal to him in a Kamehameha clash" 18 was able to kick away the Kamehameha wave with ease, so the energy he was outputting was a lot weaker than 18's kick. 18 also said something about her being worried about Goku accidently killing Krillin. Even though Goku was clearly holding back but the forms made Krillin think he was going serious just so he'll feel motivated to keep fighting no matter how bad odds are against him. Also, 18 did have a sparring match before the tournament in which she stomped Krillin.

Well it wasn't really an accusation, it was straight up true, what you said has not been shown at all and was just brought up out of nowhere, i apologize if you felt that way, and maybe you didn't make it up, but it was probably a misremember of the situation, but that is not how 18 was operating in the tournament of power, she didn't hold back for krillin to fight, krillin actually had to help her at times, or she would have been eliminated.

As for other fights, yes against some Pride Troopers she stomped, she was serious. And against Ribrianne, she was serious. But against Majora and Shosa, other opponents Krillin took out, she wanted to see Krillin do his best. Kale and Caulifa have 2-C scaling for other reasons, but the 2 of them were more than a match for like 4 Pride Troopers in a power beam struggle.

Based on what? Krillin stepped in because he felt like he could beat some of these opponents himself, feats are feats, 18 got damaged on guard, krillin beat that guy by himself, which was majora. Kale and caulifla have 2-C scaling from u6 arc, so shosa being compared to kettol who damaged base caulifla is a blatant 2-C feat, that same shosa who lost to krillin and 18.

I'll just repoint to what I said above for this.

that isn't an argument

We are not downgrading Base Goku, even Base Goku is way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as of U6 saga. And even before that, base Goku kept up with Beerus when SSJ3 Goku, SSJ Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan couldn't even do anything. Further more, the same fight scene already had Base Goku get stronger randomly during the same fight when he was SSG earlier where it reverted with no decrease in power. Goku just holds back and goofs off a lot in ToP.

U6 Saiyans are part of the 2-C scaling for different reasons given Cabba in U6 with the girls being supposedly even stronger than him. Struggling against fodder Pride Troopers or Napapa might be outliers.

what are those "different" reasons?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Speaking of which, I'm not sure if "Fighting a possessed Roshi" was also the best example used for Roshi upscaling from anyone.

The possession didn't make Roshi any stronger so it's valid

 

[TiltedFN]

The possession didn't make Roshi any stronger so it's valid

yeah, consistent with the fact that roshi was able to defeat (forgot his name) the person who got in front of base goku, and took punches and block some also.

 

[CloverDragon03]

We are not downgrading Base Goku, even Base Goku is way stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as of U6 saga. And even before that, base Goku kept up with Beerus when SSJ3 Goku, SSJ Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan couldn't even do anything. Further more, the same fight scene already had Base Goku get stronger randomly during the same fight when he was SSG earlier where it reverted with no decrease in power. Goku just holds back and goofs off a lot in ToP.

That one actually has the explanation of Goku's body learning from fighting as a SSG. Also, while Goku loves a good fight as shown in the ToP, he also understands full well the stakes involved. And given his track record against similar world-ending stakes, I see no reason for him to be holding back in whatever form he's using.

Also the things you mentioned about Goku's scaling compared to that of other characters is... super irrelevant to the Tournament of Power arc.

U6 Saiyans are part of the 2-C scaling for different reasons given Cabba in U6 with the girls being supposedly even stronger than him. Struggling against fodder Pride Troopers or Napapa might be outliers.

See this is what bothers me. How many things are we gonna dismiss as outliers until we realize that we're the ones who are getting things wrong? If it's this consistent, it's not an outlier anymore, it's just ignoring feats we don't like.

 

[Recon1511]

not notifying me of opm upgrades smh

 

[TimmyTurnero]

not notifying me of opm upgrades smh

 

[TiltedFN]

See this is what bothers me. How many things are we gonna dismiss as outliers until we realize that we're the ones who are getting things wrong? If it's this consistent, it's not an outlier anymore, it's just ignoring feats we don't like.

Exactly, now when these characters have these feats on more than 1 occasion, it's an outlier now? This is extremely disingenuous, these counterarguments to the OP are simply just going off of outliers and "holding back" which have been proven to be wrong already.

 

[Saintdhqhdy]

Agree

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Will be adjusting the agrees and disagrees soon.
Why hasn’t any of the opposing sides talked about Tien being a threat to Piccolo?

 

[TiltedFN]

Will be adjusting the agrees and disagrees soon.
Why hasn’t any of the opposing sides talked about Tien being a threat to Piccolo?

thats what im wondering, i have brought it up multiple times and nobody has given a rebuttal

 

[Eseseso]

I'm neutral on Tien, maybe we should see scans of him vs Piccolo?

Rest is good.

Will Roshi just be "High 4-C, 2-C in Max Form?"

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I'm neutral on Tien, maybe we should see scans of him vs Piccolo?

They never fought, and I posted all the scans that exist for their scaling. Goku tells Tien to “take care of” Piccolo, imply he believes Tien is relative enough to take on a super charged Piccolo.
and once he goes to attack Piccolo, Gohan feels the need to knock Goku away, halting his 1v1 and disrupts Tien’s attack. If Piccolo is 2-C and Tien is high 4-C then none of these events would have occurred.

Will Roshi just be "High 4-C, 2-C in Max Form?"

Well the form can’t suddenly be an infinite jump so his base form has to downscale right?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Tien also thought he could do something to Gohan when he was fighting Goku with his Kikoho

 

[DivineAura44]

Agree with Roshi and KDawg. Tien can sit his as in finite power right along with Yamcha.

 

[TiltedFN]

Agree with Roshi and KDawg. Tien can sit his as in finite power right along with Yamcha.

why

 

[Padaruyos]

why

Spite, apparently.

I do agree with the upgrades, sure it makes no sense to put the humans in the same league of power as BoG SSG Goku given there's no indication that the humans have a legitimate way to reach that kind of power. But, that does not discount the feats that they have. This is similar to the Boruto Five Kage situation, makes no sense for them to be that strong, but they do have the feats.

 

[DivineAura44]

Spite, apparently.

I do agree with the upgrades, sure it makes no sense to put the humans in the same league of power as BoG SSG Goku given there's no indication that the humans have a legitimate way to reach that kind of power. But, that does not discount the feats that they have. This is similar to the Boruto Five Kage situation, makes no sense for them to be that strong, but they do have the feats.

It's not he is the only one not scaling near the others. Roshi fought Ganos and even Jiren in the Manga, Krillin is on par with 18, and Tien has what exactly?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Tien has what exactly?

Being a threat to Piccolo.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's not he is the only one not scaling near the others. Roshi fought Ganos and even Jiren in the Manga, Krillin is on par with 18, and Tien has what exactly?

His Kikoho being a noteworthy threat to both Piccolo and Gohan

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm neutral on Tien, maybe we should see scans of him vs Piccolo?

Rest is good.

Will Roshi just be "High 4-C, 2-C in Max Form?"

No, just 2-C. Even his base form withstood several hits from a transformed Ganos, whose base form could take some hits from Base Goku

 

[DivineAura44]

Threat is a very strong word, Goku's words can be sensed as him more distracting Piccolo then anything. I'd be fine with "2-C with Tri Beam" however.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Threat is a very strong word, Goku's words can be sensed as him more distracting Piccolo then anything. I'd be fine with "2-C with Tri Beam" however.

He took hits from Base Gohan and from a possessed Roshi

 

[Eseseso]

I mean those did badly hurt him, so maybe something like "at most 2-C"

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean those did badly hurt him, so maybe something like "at most 2-C"

Base Gohan's attacks, not really. Also there's never really a distinction of Tri-Beam being more powerful than Tien's other attacks. This is only the case with Neo Tri-Beam, or when Tien put his life into the Tri-Beam against Nappa

 

[PrinceofPein]

OP should update the vote count

 

[AwkguyDB]

If I'm being honest, all the ToP Z-Fighters should be 2-C and the only reason they're not is people's personal beliefs that this cannot possibly be the case

I agree with the OP FRA

 

[AwkguyDB]

Bump

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Bump

 

[TiltedFN]

thoughts?

 

[Mickey1940]

hi sorry I found this thread by accident

ik I'm not a person of authority and ik I'm super late to the convo, but I do agree with everything that was stated