Bald man upgrade (Spoilers, not Saitama)

[TimmyTurnero]

Spoiler: Krillin

Recently Android 18 was upgraded to Low multi for a set number of reasons.
Krillin scales alongside 18 before that revision so he needs to be upgraded to the same tier alongside her. That’s it.
But if he suddenly cannot scale to 18 bc the mods say so, he’s shown fighting on par with her, with 18 literally resulting in a constant combination attack to defeat the Possum.
This is not the face of someone who is holding back.


18 watches Krillin get knocked out
Attempts to defend herself.
and gete knocker out.
Krillin can fight on par with this guy, he scales. It’s literally accepted on his profile.

Spoiler: Tien

Despite being harder to argue I think Tien has enough feats to place him on this level.

In his sparing match against Gohan and Piccolo he has a series of showings that possibly place him on the levels of base Goku and Gohan.

He took several staggering hits from a serious Gohan who was fighting what appeared to be a serious Goku. But this is only supporting evidence as someone will say we don’t know if they were 2-C at the time.

But, crazy enough, Tien felt that his Tri Beam could disrupt Piccolo’s charged attack/harm Piccolo. Even Goku believed Tien could take that variation of Piccolo.
This is further backed by Gohan having to disrupt Tien’s attack in fear of him actually disrupting Piccolo, who is listed here as 2-C.

Spoiler: Roshi

Roshi is simple, he could bitch Tien.

Agree: Fezzih_007, CloverDragon3, Eseseso, The_2nd_Existential_Seed, Greatsage13th, LuffyRuffy46307, AwkGuyDB, Divineaura44, Padaruyos, TiltedFN, Adem_Warlock69, Saintdhqhdy,
Neutral:
Disagree: Deagonx, Nullflowerblush (?), DDM

 

[Fezzih_007]

Possibly low 2-C, don't see nothing wrong with that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I disagree

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I disagree

Why?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Recently Android 18 was upgraded to Low multi for a set number of reasons.
Krillin scaled along side 18 before that revision so he needs to be upgraded to the same tier alongside her. That’s it.

Agree: Fezzih_007
Neutral:
Disagree:

If I'm being honest, all the ToP Z-Fighters should be 2-C and the only reason they're not is people's personal beliefs that this cannot possibly be the case

 

[TimmyTurnero]

If I'm being honest, all the ToP Z-Fighters should be 2-C and the only reason they're not is people's personal beliefs that this cannot possibly be the case

I’ll put u down as agree.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I’ll put u down as agree.

Ye, because I do

 

[Eseseso]

If I'm being honest, all the ToP Z-Fighters should be 2-C and the only reason they're not is people's personal beliefs that this cannot possibly be the case

I mean, Tien threw hands with Base Gohan, and Roshi overpowered both Tien and Base Goku when not holding back in his muscle form (and also matched Frost for a time when muscular).

Agree with OP, btw.

Krillin vs Sonic

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Probably shouldn’t have but I edited the OP.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There are too many underdogs who were literally stomped by even the base forms of Goku and Vegeta; and the pre tournament sparring matches are not to be seen as serious matches. Goku went SSB to make himself look serious, but he was clearly holding back and he could have easily stomped even in just base form. As was based Gohan. Also, 18 had way better showings of being a lot stronger than Krillin and actually stomped some of the pride troopers and consistently held her own against Ribrianne who occasionally gave Vegeta and 17 a bit of trouble. And later fought Analiza alongside 17, Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta and SSG Goku. Krillin was effortlessly stomped by Frost early in the tournament. Roshi also needed to use his wits with the Mafuba rather than overpower foes and has 0 reason to scale from Frost. And Tien while destroying Kachi Katchin is impressive, he also doesn't have any reason to be on par with the rest of the god tiers.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Tien threw hands with Base Gohan

Tien was cannon fodder.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agree with the upgrades

 

[CloverDragon03]

There are too many underdogs who were literally stomped by even the base forms of Goku and Vegeta

Then they don't scale. The Earthlings aren't a part of this though

and the pre tournament sparring matches are not to be seen as serious matches. Goku went SSB to make himself look serious, but he was clearly holding back and he could have easily stomped even in just base form. As was based Gohan.

Prove he could've easily stomped them in base form. There are statements that he used Super Saiyan Blue to gauge and motivate each contestant, which makes sense, but it says nothing about his base form

The only thing that says he "could've easily stomped them" is preconceived notions that cloud our judgment.

Also, 18 had way better showings of being a lot stronger than Krillin and actually stomped some of the pride troopers and consistently held her own against Ribrianne who occasionally gave Vegeta and 17 a bit of trouble. And later fought Analiza alongside 17, Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta and SSG Goku. Krillin was effortlessly stomped by Frost early in the tournament.

Couple of things wrong here:

1. I do agree 18 is superior to Krillin, but they're not wholly incomparable, as Krillin was able to damage opponents that could harm Android 18.
2. Krillin wasn't "effortlessly stomped" in the way you make it seem. Frost got a sneak attack that knocked Krillin out of the arena, but when Krillin appeared in the stands, he wasn't very harmed at all.

Roshi also needed to use his wits with the Mafuba rather than overpower foes and has 0 reason to scale from Frost.

A very tired MAX Power Roshi could pressure Frost with physicals, and prior to the tournament he fought on par with Base Goku

And Tien while destroying Kachi Katchin is impressive, he also doesn't have any reason to be on par with the rest of the god tiers.

This isn't why he'd be 2-C though. He briefly fought MAX Power Roshi and also briefly fought against Base Gohan, taking multiple hits from him. Goku also left the task of stopping Piccolo from charging up to Tien in the sparring match.

Also, this reasoning of "he can't be in the same tier as the god tiers" is arguing from incredulity incarnate. He's way down on the scaling chain, as in he'd be around Base Goku level, not to mention the number of characters who scale to double the amount of space-times Tien would scale to. He's nowhere near the league of the god tiers.

I really need to ask this to pretty much anyone that disagrees with the thread, as this is a common problem I see with Dragon Ball threads, and it especially pertains to this subject: Do you disagree because there's legitimate reasoning? Or because you personally cannot believe the idea of these characters being 2-C?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

something something majin buu who is as strong as he was in z >>> basil >>> krillin

Did Buu train between Z and the Zen Expo?

 

[CloverDragon03]

something something majin buu who is as strong as he was in z >>> basil >>> krillin

Did Buu train between Z and the Zen Expo?

The feats speak for themselves. Also going by Goku and Gohan's image training isn't exactly accurate since even Goku goes against it saying Krillin will be fine due to having gotten back into training.

Also Buu getting passively stronger is something that happens even later on, as in Super Hero, Piccolo implies that Buu would be able to help against the Gammas despite him being asleep at the time.

 

[Eseseso]

Let's scale DBS Buu to Toei Kid Buu who is 2-C since Toei is canon to DBS

But regardless, I agree with Clover's points. All of them.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also yes, make ToP Arc Buu 2-C cowards

 

[Eseseso]

Also yes, make ToP Arc Buu 2-C cowards

To quote @Sir_Marvulous:
Majin Buu
In the same scene that Piccolo talks about the threat of the Gamma Androids, he implies that Majin Buu would be able to fight against them.

Buu should be outright 2-C. If not, then possibly/likely 2-C

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Prove he could've easily stomped them in base form. There are statements that he used Super Saiyan Blue to gauge and motivate each contestant, which makes sense, but it says nothing about his base form

The only thing that says he "could've easily stomped them" is preconceived notions that cloud our judgment.

The Author confirmed that the reason they had the Earthlings fight instead of Goten, Trunks or Buu had to do with it not exclusively being SSJ's overpowering through everything but wanted to see underdogs use their wits against stronger opponents. So Goten and Trunks are considered stronger than the Earthlings and SSJ3 Gotenks is far weaker than base Vegeta. Again, Goku pretty much mastered the ability to "Hold back with style" so even going SSB isn't always evidence that he is even going all out for base form standards.

This isn't why he'd be 2-C though. He briefly fought MAX Power Roshi and also briefly fought against Base Gohan, taking multiple hits from him. Goku also left the task of stopping Piccolo from charging up to Tien in the sparring match.

When did Tien spar with Piccolo in Super? I do not remember this. Or are you referring to Tien fighting Harmira who manage to hurt a held back Piccolo?

A very tired MAX Power Roshi could pressure Frost with physicals, and prior to the tournament he fought on par with Base Goku

A casual base Goku perhaps, but again, he was not going all out.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with them scaling. Even assuming the whole 'casual' route, you'd have to prove he was holding back so much he still isn't 2-C.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The Author confirmed that the reason they had the Earthlings fight instead of Goten, Trunks or Buu had to do with it not exclusively being SSJ's overpowering through everything but wanted to see underdogs use their wits against stronger opponents. So Goten and Trunks are considered stronger than the Earthlings and SSJ3 Gotenks is far weaker than base Vegeta. Again, Goku pretty much mastered the ability to "Hold back with style" so even going SSB isn't always evidence that he is even going all out for base form standards.

Using the idea of SSJ3 Gotenks < Base Vegeta doesn't hold up when talking about the Tournament of Power Arc. This was before even the Goku Black Arc.

When did Tien spar with Piccolo in Super? I do not remember this. Or are you referring to Tien fighting Harmira who manage to hurt a held back Piccolo?

The sparring match that was Goku and Tien vs. Gohan and Piccolo in episode 90 of DBS

A casual base Goku perhaps, but again, he was not going all out.

The onus is on you to prove he was casual, and not just that, so casual that he wouldn't even be 2-C anymore. And you haven't disproven my point about Roshi pressuring Frost either.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

There are too many underdogs who were literally stomped by even the base forms of Goku and Vegeta;

I don’t mention any of the “underdogs” you’re referring to in this thread, what’re you talking about? All the scaling derives off of Krillin scaling to 1

and the pre tournament sparring matches are not to be seen as serious matches. Goku went SSB to make himself look serious, but he was clearly holding back and he could have easily stomped even in just base form. As was based Gohan.

I disagree. There’s no reason for Gohan to be serious and somehow magically drop infinitely weaker to hit Tien and somehow magically jump up infinitely with no power ups. Even then, I admit in the OP that the Gohan scaling is iffy and move on to scaling him to Piccolo.

Also, 18 had way better showings of being a lot stronger than Krillin and actually stomped some of the pride troopers and consistently held her own against Ribrianne who occasionally gave Vegeta and 17 a bit of trouble. And later fought Analiza alongside 17, Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta and SSG Goku. Krillin was effortlessly stomped by Frost early in the tournament. Roshi also needed to use his wits with the Mafuba rather than overpower foes and has 0 reason to scale from Frost. And Tien while destroying Kachi Katchin is impressive, he also doesn't have any reason to be on par with the rest of the god tiers.

I never said Roshi scales to frost or refer to anyone breaking Kachi Katchin, seriously what are you talking about?
Krillin scales to 18 via fighting alongside her, beating someone who literally knocked her out in a single attack and teaming up and creating a combination attack alongside her to defeat someone she couldn’t beat alone.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Tien was cannon fodder.

So do I mark you down as disagree or have you changed your opinion after my response?

I don’t mention any of the “underdogs” you’re referring to in this thread, what’re you talking about? All the scaling derives off of Krillin scaling to 1

I disagree. There’s no reason for Gohan to be serious and somehow magically drop infinitely weaker to hit Tien and somehow magically jump up infinitely with no power ups. Even then, I admit in the OP that the Gohan scaling is iffy and move on to scaling him to Piccolo.

I never said Roshi scales to frost or refer to anyone breaking Kachi Katchin, seriously what are you talking about?
Krillin scales to 18 via fighting alongside her, beating someone who literally knocked her out in a single attack and teaming up and creating a combination attack alongside her to defeat someone she couldn’t beat alone.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

There’s no reason for Gohan to be serious and somehow magically drop infinitely weaker to hit Tien and somehow magically jump up infinitely with no power ups.

Wasn't this the reasoning used to argue that 3-A Goku should've downscaled from Beerus's Low 2-C? Because Beerus couldn't suppress his power infinitely?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Wasn't this the reasoning used to argue that 3-A Goku should've downscaled from Beerus's Low 2-C? Because Beerus couldn't suppress his power infinitely?

Have no idea, and I’m not saying they can’t, but the belief that he’s fighting at X level and suddenly drops several magnitudes of infinity for a single punch or kick then boosting up to X level almost immediately with no notable change happening is dubious.

What do you think of Tien being a threat to a supercharged Piccolo?

 

[TiltedFN]

i agree with the upgrades.

 

[TiltedFN]

There are too many underdogs who were literally stomped by even the base forms of Goku and Vegeta; and the pre tournament sparring matches are not to be seen as serious matches.

But it WAS serious, that was the whole point of the 2 on 2, saying they we're "holding back" or "not serious" every time is just disingenuous, especially if these characters keep having qualifying feats.

Goku went SSB to make himself look serious, but he was clearly holding back and he could have easily stomped even in just base form. As was based Gohan. Also, 18 had way better showings of being a lot stronger than Krillin and actually stomped some of the pride troopers and consistently held her own against Ribrianne who occasionally gave Vegeta and 17 a bit of trouble.

Dude, look at our pages on these characters, shosa is rated as 2-C for fighting krillin AND 18, the same shosa who was 2-C for fighting kettol who managed to damage base caulifla who is 2-C, yet he's not 2-C for trading blows with a 2-C character? Somebody who almost eliminated 18, yet krillin traded blows with shosa and was able to deflect energy blast that took out a 2-C shosa, how does this make sense for krillin and kettol to not scale?

And later fought Analiza alongside 17, Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta and SSG Goku. Krillin was effortlessly stomped by Frost early in the tournament.

Krillin was off guarded by frost, how do you think this is a point? Then why are characters 2-C for fighting android 18 early on in the tournament who krillin fought alongside?

Roshi also needed to use his wits with the Mafuba rather than overpower foes and has 0 reason to scale from Frost. And Tien while destroying Kachi Katchin is impressive, he also doesn't have any reason to be on par with the rest of the god tiers.

We aren't even talking about tien destroying parts of the stage, tien took hits from a serious base gohan and was still able t get up, gohan needed to interfere to stop tien from potentially hurting or disrupting a 2-C piccolo, and goku thought tien could handle him, is piccolo still holding back? Lmao. And roshi proceeds to destroy that same tien from an episode prior iirc.

 

[TiltedFN]

Tien was cannon fodder.

Tien still took hits from serious base gohan, and goku believed tien could take one a 2-C piccolo

 

[TiltedFN]

something something majin buu who is as strong as he was in z >>> basil >>> krillin

Did Buu train between Z and the Zen Expo?

Okay? Majin buu clearly still has the feats, stomped a AMPED BASIL, who was trading blows with a serious base goku and vegeta, it doesn't matter if he didn't train, he clearly got stronger overtime

 

[Eseseso]

Didn't Krillin do well against Goku in a practice fight before the ToP?

 

[Quantu]

The gap between 2-C and 4-C on this site cannot be translated in terms on Dragon Ball. There is no infinite gap or anything like that. So arguments like "he can't have gotten infinitely strong with no training" or even "he can't be holding back infinitely" are moot: it is just another level of power for the characters to reach.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll ping @Damage3245 @AKM sama @Elizhaa @DemonGodMitchAubin @Deagonx to see what their thoughts are.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll ping @Damage3245 @AKM sama @Elizhaa @DemonGodMitchAubin @Deagonx to see what their thoughts are.

I'm inclined to agree with you, DDM. I would only support such severe scaling in cases where the fights are clearly very serious, and prolonged to a certain degree. Characters in DB hold back far too much to assume anyone who punches or takes a punch from another character can scale.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I disagree

I also disagree for the same reason as Medeus, I think the only one who would possibly have any chance of being upgraded to 2-C or at least 3-A would be Master Roshi when dealing damage to Goku in his base form.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Didn't Krillin do well against Goku in a practice fight before the ToP?

It lasted a short time, after which Goku in his blue form launches an attack and ends the party, Android 18 kicks the attack, if not Krillin would have died right there.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I'm inclined to agree with you, DDM. I would only support such severe scaling in cases where the fights are clearly very serious, and prolonged to a certain degree. Characters in DB hold back far too much to assume anyone who punches or takes a punch from another character can scale.

I understand the concern but he doesn’t exactly expand on why Krillin scaling is a problem when he scales to 18 on this site.

Tien possibly disrupting piccolo who’s charging up a beyond his normal level isn’t evident enough?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm inclined to agree with you, DDM. I would only support such severe scaling in cases where the fights are clearly very serious, and prolonged to a certain degree. Characters in DB hold back far too much to assume anyone who punches or takes a punch from another character can scale.

The onus is on the opposition to prove they were holding back to such a degree, and nobody has done this.

 

[TiltedFN]

I'm inclined to agree with you, DDM. I would only support such severe scaling in cases where the fights are clearly very serious, and prolonged to a certain degree. Characters in DB hold back far too much to assume anyone who punches or takes a punch from another character can scale.

Again, this is just such a copout for genuine feats, did you see my post and how inconsistent it is with the profiles listed? It literally just makes no sense at all, High 4-C characters for fighting 2-C opponents, its always just "they were holding back" even though i find it hard to believe you think gohan was holding back when he gut checked tf out of tien.

 

[TiltedFN]

I also disagree for the same reason as Medeus, I think the only one who would possibly have any chance of being upgraded to 2-C or at least 3-A would be Master Roshi when dealing damage to Goku in his base form.

But how? Goku thought tien could take on piccolo, and took hits from a serious base gohan, how is that holding back?

 

[CloverDragon03]

The point is: If you can't prove such a claim, I can't help but question the validity of such a disagreement...