Dragon Ball universal space time number downgrade

[Stefano4444]

The fact that you cannot physically travel to Hell supports it being a separate space-time.

I mean Goku and Pikkon did travel to Hell by flying from the Grand Kai Planet, and is not like it was stated or show that they go to King Yemma's palace first or that they teleported via IT.

Also i have yet to see statements in the series who directly conferm that Hell its separated space-time (or that the yellow clouds separate space-time), we have statements for the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm sure but the same can't be say for Hell.

The closest one it come in mind its the one from DBGT (about the two Android 17's portal was connecting separated space-times) but considering that Hell is part of the Afterlife which by itself its a different space-time it doesn't necessarely conferm anything.

 

[omegabronic]

I can agree that hell is large in the map, and it is larger than the universe via being bigger than heaven which is comparable to the universe; anime and manga maps have been argued to be valid for depiction, in threads that limit the map usage.

Well, the map wqs agreed to not be acurrate or usable for sizes in a thread i already linked in the op

On Hell’s point, Hell seems to be part of the afterlife from the evidence since travel is somewhat physically possible, like falling from the afterlife to hell which suggests it is connected, and Hell’s case could be invalid via the standards.
On the portal point, it could be a visual design clue; it is not uncommon in fiction where one can enter a barrier or place but can’t leave it despite the place still sharing the same spacetime.

I think it was the 3 realms (mortal, afterlife, and Kaioshin realm) that were initially accepted for 2-C and clarified further; the infinite part is no longer valid, if I remember correctly.

It would be 4 now due to a recent revision, but thank you for the input

Further on the size of Kaioshin's realm, let’s say the description in the calculation is close to what is in the anime and manga, the universe 7 is 15 times bigger than the observable universe

Again, the map was acceptes as not being on scale in sizes, therefore calculations on it can't ve used to say the sizes of things

I would be fine with going back to the old 3 realms rating for 2-C.

Thank you for the input

 

[omegabronic]

In the novel it is described as distorting space-time and entering such a dimension (dimension of lights)

already talked about this, purely means that it is a space time, nothing more

it is also said to have dimensional barriers within it

also talked about, every realm has those inside, it is like the walls of a house, keeping them separated

and apparently how the topic of Ultima would be in the minimum low 2-C a dimensional barrier in DB )

Already explained in the op how thar is not what ultima said at all, it was a low 2-C feat for affecting the space time in a universal scale, it was never about size

 

[omegabronic]

It's also shown to be substantially bigger than heaven on the map, and while the map itself isn't drawn to scale, which means we can tell exactly how much bigger using it, it's undoubtedly a universal sized area as it literally touches the outer circumference of the entire macrocasm globe all around rather than just one pont to another

A space time has no "circunference" in fact, hell can't be "under" the afterlife as explained in the op, a space time is no where in relation to another like that, in fact, you said yourself, the map is not on scale, so how can you say that the size that it is for touching the "circunference" is any acurate at all?

There's also the fact that each celestial body in the mortal universe has a sub section in hell

Each planet with sentient life, but as also said, this proves absolutely nothing, any cosmic, dor even a big planet size, would be enough, it proves nothing on size

 

[AwkguyDB]

If I recall Goku in an attempt to leave Hell hit his head on the cloud barrier keeping him from leaving.

 

[omegabronic]

If I recall Goku in an attempt to leave Hell hit his head on the cloud barrier keeping him from leaving.

"Hits" and in physically hits?

 

[AwkguyDB]

"Hits" and in physically hits?

Yes physically hits the barrier
Ignore the 5D otherworld argument in the background just need the scan

 

[omegabronic]

Yes physically hits the barrier
Ignore the 5D otherworld argument in the background just need the scan

so all that separates hell from the otherworld is a physical barrier? ngl, sounding like it isn't another space time with that

 

[AwkguyDB]

so all that separates hell from the otherworld is a physical barrier? ngl, sounding like it isn't another space time with that

The barrier is depicted in GT as a dimensional doorway/portal and in other filler its a dark shadow that has hands that pull in anyone over head

 

[omegabronic]

The barrier is depicted in GT as a dimensional doorway/portal and in other filler its a dark shadow that has hands that pull in anyone over head

And in Z it wasn't because?

 

[Jaakor48]

A space time has no "circunference"

By "circumference" I meant the edges of the macrocasm structure, it completely covered both ends

in fact, hell can't be "under" the afterlife as explained in the op, a space time is no where in relation to another like that,

Has nothing to do with my point

in fact, you said yourself, the map is not on scale, so how can you say that the size that it is for touching the "circunference" is any acurate at all?

It's not drawn to scale, meaning you can't use a structure there to extrapolate the size of another structure, or determine exact distances. However relative structure sizes can be easily seen especially when it's made obvious, heaven being bigger than grand kai's planet and hell being obviously bigger than heaven , we simply can't tell how much bigger it is or how far they are.

Each planet with sentient life,

I don't remember this being the case for hell,

And in Z it wasn't because?

Iirc, Goku slamming into the barrier was on the fusion reborn movie which takes place in the same timeline as gt

 

[omegabronic]

By "circumference" I meant the edges of the macrocasm structure, it completely covered both ends

a space time doesn't have "edges" in the sense you are talking about now, you are describing a 3D plane were hell would be physically bellow the otherworld in the same "position" as in the map where there is a bigger bubble with everything inside litterally, which can't be the case if it is another space time, waht you just said makes no sense outside of a regular 3D plane

Has nothing to do with my point

considering that it being under is the entire basis of your point, yeah it does

It's not drawn to scale, meaning you can't use a structure there to extrapolate the size of another structure, or determine exact distances.

you can't use it to say the distance or size, period, no "exact"

However relative structure sizes can be easily seen especially when it's made obvious, heaven being bigger than grand kai's planet

nope, the map contradicts that also, since the kaioshin realm is smaller thatn the mortal universe and the afterlife is as big as it, plus heaven is smaller than the mortal universe when it is supposed to be as big as it, no matter how you look, every scale in size is contradictory to the series no matter how you look at it

and hell being obviously bigger than heaven

what makes it "obviously"? the afterlife and the kaioshin realm should "obviously" be bigger than the mortal universe, yet we know that is not the case in the map

, we simply can't tell how much bigger it is or how far they are.

we can't tell if they are bigger or smaller period, nothing size or distance wise can be based on that map

I don't remember this being the case for hell,

where did you got that every celestial body would have a section in hell? why would a star with no life in it have a section for hell?

Iirc, Goku slamming into the barrier was on the fusion reborn movie which takes place in the same timeline as gt

nope, the clouds were not there in fusion reborn at all due to janemba

 

[Elizhaa]

I am especially against this point in particular. You can "fall" into Hell via crossing a portal that lies below the cloud layer, which seems to especially be the case given that a portal is shown in GT and the like, being the only way you can get to Hell. The fact that you cannot physically travel to Hell supports it being a separate space-time.

In fact, the only time Hell was visibly shown being physically traveled to was when Janemba messed everything up in Fusion Reborn

I could see the case on the portal's point, but Hell is stated to be in the world beyond, or afterlife, which weaken the separation point.

地獄
Hell

A world in the World Beyond where bad people are sent after they die. Hell is inside the World Beyond, and is separated from the above world by strange clouds. Beings coming from above can pass through, but beings coming from below may not pass. Because of this, criminals cannot fly up and escape. (Daizenshuu 4, Page 72)



On the Ultima's point, I believe it was more on the universe's space-time, in general, where the feat could be Low 2-C like "destroying the entire fabric of the spacetime continuum is Low 2-C at worst"; the issue is that we don't know the size of the dimension(s)' space-time continuum, so the characters destroyed unspecified space-time continuum(s).

 

[AwkguyDB]

UPDATE again
So the Afterlife has been calc to be 2,197,272.72 times bigger than the Observable Universe. With this being the case Kaioshin Realm is now calc'd at 219727.272x the Universe in size so it no longer is of contention.

This brings us back the confirmed universes being
Living Realm, Kaioshin Realm, Grand Kaio Planet, and the Afterlife (containing Heaven)

So 4 Universes officially

In regards to Hell with the chart from the accepted Daizenshuu 4 splitting the realm based on jurisdiction, Hell makes up a third of this realm based on what is considered "Hell". With a realm that is millions of times greater than the universe, regardless of its actual size it makes up the entire bottom of the sphere consistently. Hell in itself has numerous spaces for all the planets in the universes aside from the general spaces like Bloody Pond, Pin Mountain and the Glacial Realm of DBGT. Its pretty apparent that based on the material that Hell is at least Universal in size but with the new calc that got accepted and taking the Daizenshuu 4 chart into consideration Hell is at most 1/3rd the size of the Afterlife.

To be honest the Dimension of Swirling Lights is the only thing here left to talk about if even because I and many others still agree with Luffy's reasoning which has already been accepted in the other thread.

So I still stand at the 6 Universes with 5 scaling to pre GoD levels and 12 for everything higher

^ @Elizhaa

 

[omegabronic]

You guys really have not read the op again have you? The kaioshin realm was not part of this for weeks dude


i still stand that this graphic is not talking about size and it is using the already reject macrocosm map scale, plus the fact that it is saying thar hell is physically inside the afterlife, which is a problem as explained earlier


you mean all the 20 planets with sentient life as explained in super?


I honestly can't see how




Why does the other thread matter when this thread is presenting counter arguments for it and was made because of it? The vote in that thread is not aplicable here, why is everyone bringing this up?

^
@Elizhaa

 

[omegabronic]

bump

 

[omegabronic]

bump

 

[TiltedFN]

Still think hell should stay, free movement is impossible, and it has a cloud layer on the bottom that seems to reach as far as the afterlife. Even though it isn't actually apart of the afterlife technically, when you go to the other side of the portal, there is still a cloud layer, and assume that anywhere beneath the clouds is a portal in which you can transported, i think its feasible to say hell is way larger than universal in size due to the sheer size of the afterlife

 

[omegabronic]

Still think hell should stay, free movement is impossible

if we have statements for them to be within the afterlife, then this doesn't really become a good indicative that it is a separated dimension as much as it is sealed off

and it has a cloud layer on the bottom that seems to reach as far as the afterlife.

we don't know this last part

Even though it isn't actually apart of the afterlife technically, when you go to the other side of the portal, there is still a cloud layer, and assume that anywhere beneath the clouds is a portal in which you can transported, i think its feasible to say hell is way larger than universal in size due to the sheer size of the afterlife

why would the cloud layer in hell need to be as big as the one in the afterlife? it is a portal that leads people from one to the other, therefore the size doesn't need to be the same as it is just teleporting between space times

 

[TiltedFN]

if we have statements for them to be within the afterlife, then this doesn't really become a good indicative that it is a separated dimension as much as it is sealed off

I mean technically it is in the afterlife, but also a different spacetime, that doesn't really contradict anything, the heavenly realm is still a place you go to when you die, but there could still be different spacetimes in the entire construct, its hard to visualize that kind of stuff.

we don't know this last part

when goku went to the portal, he appeared in the same place as he went in, just on the different spacetime, and if that is the case that there are just portals all throughout the afterlife, then it can be assumed the 2nd cloud layer can stretch on just as far.

why would the cloud layer in hell need to be as big as the one in the afterlife? it is a portal that leads people from one to the other, therefore the size doesn't need to be the same as it is just teleporting between space times

Why wouldn't it be?

 

[omegabronic]

I mean technically it is in the afterlife, but also a different spacetime, that doesn't really contradict anything, the heavenly realm is still a place you go to when you die, but there could still be different spacetimes in the entire construct, its hard to visualize that kind of stuff.

I think yoy didn't understood the point, the proof that it is another dimension becomes less of a proof when we have direct statements that it is inside the otherworld, the only one being that "travel between them is not possible and has portals leading to it"

when goku went to the portal, he appeared in the same place as he went in, just on the different spacetim and if that is the case that there are just portals all throughout the afterlife, then it can be assumed the 2nd cloud layer can stretch on just as far.

he didn't arrived in the same place, if they are different space times then he just arrived at the other space time in another area, not at the same place, space times are not in 3D paralel with eachother for that phrase you just said to make sense

Why wouldn't it be?

You made the affirmation, you have to prove it, i don't need to prove a negative, now answer my question

 

[TiltedFN]

I think yoy didn't understood the point, the proof that it is another dimension becomes less of a proof when we have direct statements that it is inside the otherworld, the only one being that "travel between them is not possible and has portals leading to it"

Different spacetimes can be inside of different spacetimes lmao, physical travel between them not being possible is just proof of that.

he didn't arrived in the same place, if they are different space times then he just arrived at the other space time in another area, not at the same place, space times are not in 3D paralel with eachother for that phrase you just said to make sense

prove he didn't arrive in the same place, breaking through space and time can lead you to the same place, just like the ROSAT incident.

 

[omegabronic]

Different spacetimes can be inside of different spacetimes lmao, physical travel between them not being possible is just proof of that.

they can, but first you would need proof that this one in question IS a different space time, physical travel not being possible is not a good proof of a different space time on its own

prove he didn't arrive in the same place

i don't need to prove a negative, you are the one who affirmed the positive claim "he arrived at the same place" you are the one who needs to prove that, plus i already explained why "same place" makes no sense with what we are talking about

, breaking through space and time can lead you to the same place, just like the ROSAT incident.

in the ROSAT incidence they didn't arrived in the same place at all, you really should address any of the points of my explanation about this if you are going to keep using it

 

[Elizhaa]

UPDATE again
So the Afterlife has been calc to be 2,197,272.72 times bigger than the Observable Universe. With this being the case Kaioshin Realm is now calc'd at 219727.272x the Universe in size so it no longer is of contention.

This brings us back the confirmed universes being
Living Realm, Kaioshin Realm, Grand Kaio Planet, and the Afterlife (containing Heaven)

So 4 Universes officially

In regards to Hell with the chart from the accepted Daizenshuu 4 splitting the realm based on jurisdiction, Hell makes up a third of this realm based on what is considered "Hell". With a realm that is millions of times greater than the universe, regardless of its actual size it makes up the entire bottom of the sphere consistently. Hell in itself has numerous spaces for all the planets in the universes aside from the general spaces like Bloody Pond, Pin Mountain and the Glacial Realm of DBGT. Its pretty apparent that based on the material that Hell is at least Universal in size but with the new calc that got accepted and taking the Daizenshuu 4 chart into consideration Hell is at most 1/3rd the size of the Afterlife.

To be honest the Dimension of Swirling Lights is the only thing here left to talk about if even because I and many others still agree with Luffy's reasoning which has already been accepted in the other thread.

So I still stand at the 6 Universes with 5 scaling to pre GoD levels and 12 for everything higher

I assuming that you mean the Grand Kaio Planet which is Kaiou realm in the afterlife; if so, Heaven is in the Kaiou realm in the afterlife.

界王界
Kaiou Realm The world where Kaiou are. It exists in the World Beyond. The four Kaiou here rule over the East, West, South, and North [sections] of the universe. The Kaiou that frequently appears in the original work is the Kaiou in charge of the North Area. North Kaiou's residence is the tiny Planet Kaiou that floats in mid-air above hot clouds. The Kaiou Realm's extent is unknown, but in the vast scope of the World Beyond, three other Planet Kaiou float just like the North Planet Kaiou does. Heaven and Planet Dai Kaiou are also contained in the Kaiou Realm.界王神界.



Edit:

On the realms, currently only Afterlife/World Beyond, the Mortal Realm, and the Kaioshin Realm have evidence that they have their own space-time, as stated in my first post.

Locations like Kaiou realm, Heaven, and Hell might be 3-A because of their size when compared to the physical universe, but the evidence to meet the standards seems somewhat limited to prove they have their own space-time, with the additional evidence confirming they are still in the afterlife.

 

[omegabronic]

I thought Hell was part of Other World, though I know Demon Realm is separate though. I think I was neutral about Strange Swirling Lights or Kaioshin Realm. But Grand Kai's planet, isn't that also part of Other World in Toei Continuity?

given elizhaa's recently given points, could you give a evaluation of what you agree or disagree with this crt?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[omegabronic]

Agree with the OP.

Thank you

 

[TiltedFN]

they can, but first you would need proof that this one in question IS a different space time, physical travel not being possible is not a good proof of a different space time on its own

Why isn't it good proof? Combining that with the fact that you need a literal portal to get there, I think the evidence is pretty sufficient, being a completely separate body of space that only portals can lead to, considering portals/wormholes literally can lead to different spacetime continuums.

i don't need to prove a negative, you are the one who affirmed the positive claim "he arrived at the same place" you are the one who needs to prove that, plus i already explained why "same place" makes no sense with what we are talking about

It is the same logic how gotenks and piccolo can come out of the same place whilst breaking through the dimensional barrier of the ROSAT and the living realm.

in the ROSAT incidence they didn't arrived in the same place at all, you really should address any of the points of my explanation about this if you are going to keep using it

The could layer is assumed to have portals all throughout because if you fall off at any point in snake way, you go to hell, and even beyond that because goku can't go below the could layer any way. So we can safely assume that the could layer on the other side of the portal is just as wide as the one "above" hell. And they usually describe hell to be at the "bottom" of the afterlife referencing the macrocosm map. And hell can still be deemed part of the heavenly realm, its just the heavenly realm would hold spacetimes. And still be at the bottom because you actually have to fly to the bottom to get to the portal beneath the cloud layer.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

So current tier 2 universes would be Supreme Kai world, Living Realm, and the Afterlife?

 

[omegabronic]

So current tier 2 universes would be Supreme Kai world, Living Realm, and the Afterlife?

Yep

 

[Jaakor48]

So current tier 2 universes would be Supreme Kai world, Living Realm, and the Afterlife?

And mortal universe


DOSL and Hell are still being discussed

 

[omegabronic]

And mortal univers

living realm = mortal universe

DOSL and Hell are still being discussed

with @Maverick_Zero_X aproval they are now accepted as not being low 2-C space times, will now go an apply this thread

 

[TiltedFN]

living realm = mortal universe


with @Maverick_Zero_X aproval they are now accepted as not being low 2-C space times, will now go an apply this thread


with @Maverick_Zero_X aproval they are now accepted as not being low 2-C space times, will now go an apply this thr

thats so crazy, did maverick even look at our arguments? They can just drop in and say i agree and now everything we argued for is just gone, thats really cool.

 

[omegabronic]

thats so crazy, did maverick even look at our arguments? They can just drop in and say i agree and now everything we argued for is just gone, thats really cool.

what exactly makes you believe that she didn't simple read the thread, saw the arguments, and still agreed with the op anyway because he didn't agreed with your arguments, but with the counter arguments to your arguments?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

what exactly makes you believe that he didn't simple read the thread, saw the arguments, and still agreed with the op anyway because he didn't agreed with your arguments, but with the counter arguments to your arguments?

She*

 

[TiltedFN]

what exactly makes you believe that he didn't simple read the thread, saw the arguments, and still agreed with the op anyway because he didn't agreed with your arguments, but with the counter arguments to your arguments?

I just think just dropping in, saying "agree" not explaining why and then never showing up in the thread again is really dumb. And I never said this just because she didn't agree, like can we get some insight on HER thoughts too? Its whatever at this point, idec. And every time i see maverick on a thread, she just said "agree" and moves on.

 

[omegabronic]

She*

damn, i get confused with this every time lol