At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

ShadowWhoWalks · Jul 15, 2024

Deagonx said:
Two things. First, the raws say she is "the root" that gave rise to all creation, not "the root of all creation."

Second, that question says "the power to create all things that the Earth goddesses possess." The earth goddesses possess the power, it's not saying the power specific refers to the things Earth Godesses created.

First of all, I'd like to know:

Whether you deny that Imaginary Number Space exists in the Reverse Side of the World.
Whether you think that human Magi manipulating and accessing the "nothingness" of Imaginary Number Space are accessing and manipulating the Root.

I made major points related to the above two questions in my previous comment. This is a notification in case you somehow haven't seen them, and a reminder to address them in case you did.

For you first objection, I don't like to get into what appears to me a fuss over semantics. So for the sake of removing obstacles to more substantive engagement, please feel free to switch X in my point to "the root that gave rise to all creation", "the root that created all creation", "the root that birthed all creation", "the root that originated all creation", "the root that conceived all creation", or whatever close equivalent.

The reason she is X is because she created the Earth Mothers who created earth. This is only coherent if 'creation' refers to whatever the Earth Mothers created.

As for your second objection, what do the Mother Goddesses possess beside what they created? Some sort of wealth they didn't create and power? Please list canonical creations, items, and powers that are relevant to the topic of the thread and possessed by these Mother Goddesses (Tiamat, Cybele, Ishtar, Inanna, Anat, Astarte, Gaia, Hera, Artemis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Athena, and so forth).

Would you say that if Gaia gave birth to 'everything', then goddess of Çatalhöyük have created 'everything' by proxy via. creating Gaia?

Deagonx said:
These are all from an entirely different game regarding an entirely different character and is focused on the word "nothingness" not the root. Moreover, the identical nature of what BB is able to do in terms of crushing the existing world with a new one is very dispositive here.

What are the manga scans from? I assume that's the manga version of the scene of Shiki in the Root from KnK?

Yes, different canonical sources are being used, and later ones expand upon the cosmology. Is there a problem?

You did emphasize that BB digitized the "nothingness" before life. Are you talking about a specific type of nothingness, like the Imaginary Number Space which is mentioned in the scan?

BB is capable of healing people, and 「Shiki Ryougi」 have offered to heal Mikiya, I guess that is an other connection? There are characters who threatened to destroy Proper Human History, which would be a higher tier multiversal feat.

Yes, from the Kara no Kyoukai manga.

Ultima_Reality · Jul 15, 2024

Deagonx said:
Second, it literally says BB digitized the "nothingness" before life. Third, the Moon Cell is a direct digital copy of everything outside if it. It's literally a computer version of the Akashic Records, and this just confirms that further.

So the Moon Cell contains an exact copy of the entire cosmology inside of it, including the Root, thus making it comparable to the Root itself? And this is what is meant by BB having "digitized" the nothingness, I take it, based on your comments?

Because, yeah, if that be the case, it's pretty damning, from the sound of it.

Deagonx · Jul 15, 2024

I'll reply to everything probably tomorrow or Tuesday.

Grand_Saver_Ritsuka · Jul 15, 2024

Deagonx said:
It says "the root" that gave rise to all creation. They use quotes elsewhere to signify specific terms being used, which means "the Root" is not just the root of something generically. There's only one thing it could be.

That is actually ignoring the context here. to say it was referring to all creation when here entire kit is creating life on Earth, with all the context surrounding the Earth. An example of all creation only referring to Earth is Gilgamesh's Ea even.

Theoretical_Toxic19 · Jul 15, 2024

Now, now isn't this tad bit ridiculous, to begin, the "Swirl of the root", "Vortex of Origin" "Akashic Records" as a general term has never ever been translated as, never been referred to as, never be coined as a "Goddess", let alone "Mother Goddess", the Swirl of the root as a term has never ever been said to have its name lost 8, 000 years ago.

Gilgamesh gains the power that's on par with the supposed authority of BB which is just allegedly the Swirl of the root digitized and the mother goddess in question herself is the Swirl of the root and defeats her, this is the same person who's equal to BB is inferior to Kiara. The same Kiara who's inferior as Amaterasu and Arcueid in the Moon. Arcueid who refers to the Swirl of the root as "Absolute", is the same Arcueid who's beyond the Swirl of the root? Seeing as she's the only one capable of defeating Amaterasu in the entire Extra Verse, are we being genuine when we are saying the description of Void Shiki sent so far are identical? BB is said to not have significance and no intellect? No?

BB can't do anything? Now let's keep going, Regular Ryougi kills Archetype Earth with the Mystic Eyes, the strongest version of Arcueid beyond all divine spirits and the highest manifestation of life on the planet, killed with a power that derives from the Swirl of the root.

not everything coined as "Nothing" is the Swirl of the root, Not even that would make sense, The term nothing in the raw for Extra CCC is distinct as well it's 無, which just means nothing, the normative term for nothing, whilst 空 or「　」 translates to Emptiness, Void, Blank, Vacuum and Shunya, Shunya a Sanskrit term for a state of nothingness that lacks all qualities, derived from svi meaning hollow, a state of nothingness, it relates to the Brahman as well that which has Zero qualities and attributes.

If I had to pronounce this term, it would be kara. Each person receives it differently. To put it simply and easily, it is the vortex of the origin. However, since the vortex of the origin is called the vortex of the origin, it is still different from 「　」The problem with the drama CD was how to translate this into dialogue.

Because it's no-thing, that can't even have a name not just nothing, people only put it in terms to make it easier to understand, knowing well it doesn't fully capture it, something a wise woman by the name of Touko Aozaki said.

The core of the mooncell is an extension of Arcueid herself, an equivalent of Crimson Moon in power who lost to Zelretch because of 2nd magic, true magic literally power that comes from the Swirl of the root itself, it's almost as if the Swirl of the root grants power that can circle back and overthrow itself, the literal implications of this, how do you record an entire cosmology yet a constituent of the cosmology like Arcueid causes stress to your computational capabilities, by just being in it.

Shall We Play Around Some? [Technique name]
Arcueid's Last Arc.
For just a second, it is possible to catch a glimpse of the vampire princess Arcueid's true power. The phantom that appears behind her back is her original form. Its appearance, abilities, and very thoughts could be called the Crimson Moon.
The inspiration for this technique comes from Kagetsu Tohya. Specifically, the episode where Shiki strayed off into Arcueid's dream and received proper retribution for killing her. Because of that, when this technique is used on Shiki it hits eighteen times.

少しばかり戯れようか?【技名】
アルクェイドのラストアーク。
ほんの一瞬、アルクェイドという吸血姫の真の力が垣間見れる。背後に現れる幻は本来の姿。この姿、能力、思考こそが朱い月と言える。
出典は『歌月十夜』より。アルクェイドの夢に迷い込んだ志貴が殺された仕返しを受ける、というエピソードから。志貴が相手だとしっかり18ヒットになる。

Q: You must tell us the details of the battle between the Crimson Moon and Zelretch at his prime!!

A: You are asking me to divulge such delicious details from my stash of ideas? Mmmm... I have shown some similar scenes in Mahoyo, they would carry a similar vibe. It would be something like, the Crimson Moon dropping a mirror image of the Moon (HERE IT COMES!) versus Zelretch doing something only he was able to do: a virtually limitless Ether Cannon unleashed through a special magic circle ("Magic Square"). If we had five times the budget of Mahoyo, then we may be able to realize such a scene.

Even with how the Mooncell works, it Mooncell only records phenomena of earth.

The Moon Cell is, in a manner of speaking, an eye that observes the Earth.
A processor that faithfully simulates all life on Earth and is capable of providing a definite prediction of the future.
A database of humanity. A massive memory recording their habits, history, ideas, even their souls. A pandorafs box that promises the next stage of evolution, promises god-like power to those intelligent lifeforms who have become technologically advanced enough to scan the interior of the moon.

Originally it was an observation device left behind by an alien civilization. It had only recorded the nature of life on Earth, but after many years it came to possess its current abilities.
Though an observation device initially, it could not leave anything unseen in its observations.

(Heisenbergfs uncertainty principle. The observer determines an event by observing it. What isnft observed is not certain).

An observation device must be fair. If it is to observe, there must be nothing unseen. Thus, it required capabilities for knowing everything about the Earth.
To record all things without bias, it needed performance greater than that of an observation device.

And so, it had made a giant leap in evolution.

It had enhanced its functions to the point where it went from making observations to surveillance, even understanding the workings of the planet.

The greater its enhancements, the more complicated its administration policy.
It created many terminals and even made artificial intelligences to manage functions for each section.
(These were later utilized for the NPCs and advanced AIs of the Holy Grail War)
However, it firmly refused to install an artificial intelligence for itself.

The observer must not have a mind.
For the observer to have a mind would result in the meaning of things being decided by the observer.
Thus, it kept to maintaining its absolute objectivity as an eye, doing so while always dismantling the emerging semblances of sapience that it had incorporated to administrate its functions.

Thus, this computer has no conception of good and evil, no desire for the future, not even an outcome.

It is simply there.

A type-writer left behind by god.

An observation lens bored in the moon.

Later, the crystal ball of dreams would come to be called this.

An eye of the moon.

A bottomless Klein cube.

An ownerless Type Moon which has read all of this planet.

How can record phenomena beyond the world, not too long ago you agreed the Swirl of the root is outside of the world, we can't be having a conversation about how something recorded from earth, a planet within the material world is the Swirl of the root, This thing with computational power comparable to the solar system, not even the universe within the context of the nasuverse is simultaneously something that can simulate an existence that is equivalent to the creator of everything? This thing can't even genuinely record emotions, I didn't think it was important to have a discussion about how it can record something that creates emotions.

Tamamo overrided the authority of the Mooncell by just kicking it to save hakuno from being erased by it, Buddha overrided the authority of the Mooncell by just being in it, this powerful computer that has enough power to record the cosmology can't even handle a kick from a constituent of reality, Velber and altera can both collective destroy this artifact which can record the entire cosmology, this is the same artifact that that views Velber as a threat as well, the Ark of the stars has computational power on par with Mooncell, let's assume the Mooncell can record the cosmology, that's the equivalent of saying the Mooncell has Power to record something on Par with it.

I don't think Kinoko Nasu wrote and allowed the Swirl of the root to be the absolute of the verse and have that be recited over the years, later in Extra CCC have it to be an equivalent of a mere computer that is exceeded by several orders of magnitude by several characters and after that Fate/Extra CCC and later on have Makoto Sanda write it to be the absolute again in El Melloi Case files, while Nasu himself writes it in Tsukihime Remake to be the absolute again, Because a goddess of earth, I love the emphasis on "Earth" being said to have created Earth emphasis on earth and they liken creating Earth to create everything and "Earth" cannot be ignored because "everything" is mentioned despite her creating everything being an extension of her just creating the planet. That's not even all, there are various times in Type Moon when statements like these have been loosely said, Arcueid's soul which is the world egg, is said to be the symmetry of stars from which everything comes from, and everything returns back from.

Territory Creation: EX

As the entire planet can be considered to be her territory, she excels at synchronizing with leylines. However, the connection is so strong that the weakening of the land is capable of influencing her as well.

Despite that, her power is only limited to just earth and the Moon.

Her master is Monji Gatou.
She is a Funny Vamp [localized as Temptress] with disheveled blond hair and crimson eyes.
She is a fan service character.
Technically not a Servant, she is a mysterious creature that Gatou brought along from Earth. Sometimes a cat, sometimes Yuzu-nee, sometimes a silicon creature, Berserker is a princess that doesn’t seem to have a proper place in the game. She is waiting eagerly for the release of the remake.
Incidentally, in the world of EXTRA where the information world (digital) takes precedence over the physical world, she is no longer the strongest.
This is because in the information world legend becomes reality, and natural phenomena that have been incarnated as “Gods” can often hold more power than their original natural existence does.
Well even with that being said, if Berserker regained her sanity she would easily be considered a cheat-tier Servant. Her power, “The stage is the Moon, so all targets have their power reduced to a sixth of their usual” would be extremely useful against other similar cheat-tier Servants.
It’s a conceptual numerical alteration, so it is unavoidable when on the Moon. Even the Moon Cell transformed version of BB would be limited by it.
As far as EXTRA and CCC go, she‘s about the only one who can bring Golden White Face [Konjiki Hakumen] down to a level where “it’s possible to defeat her no matter how slim the possibility.”

Which she applied necessary conditions in(The Moon) that it must obey including the Mooncell and BB who has the power of The Root, who would've thought, her territory is just earth not the universe, this is the same person who calls the Swirl of the root an "absolute one", I can give so many more examples, is characters like Gilgamesh with EA being said to have the capacity to destroy all of creation.

The released tumult of genesis was no longer in the
realm of an anti-fortress Noble Phantasm. It was an
irregularity that broke down not only that which
possessed shape, but all of creation. That was the true
form of the anti-world Noble Phantasm that made the
King of Heroes transcendent.
Heaven fell, Earth broke; within the darkness where
everything returned to nothingness, only Archer's Sword
of Rupture shone with brilliance. The dazzling light
continued to complete the destruction, like a star of
creation, the first thing illuminating the new world.
Rider and Waver could not ascertain all of this to the
end. To begin with, the Reality Marble they were in was
maintained by the total prana of the summoned Heroic
Spirits. Before the world itself disappeared, the bounded
field broke apart at the seams once over half of the army
had been lost, and the distorted laws of space once again
returned to the way they had been.
Fate/Zero Act 16 - Volume 4

But stalemates with other characters like Enkidu with it, who derives his power from the counter force, several characters being loosely stated to be omnipotent and, in some cases, "Truly Omnipotent" but they still circle back and regard the Swirl of the root as the one and true ultimate reality.

Obviously, if you have a company that has been releasing source material for well over 20+ years, you're going to find statements like that, which obviously is cause to analyze the statements with caution instead of taking something as ambiguous as being said to be the source of all things, right after they say "creator of earth" and mother goddess, when there are several characters with the similar statements, this is not even taking into account how I can still list numerous divine spirits with the same statements let alone all characters in Type Moon.

And just to be clear this thing we're talking about is a mother goddess, by proxy it is either a God or Divine Spirit, both of which are exceed as a category in power by True Ancestors collectively, because the status of "Planet" takes precedence in power over the status of "God", which is why Arcueid was weakened in Extra, because she reduced to be "God" instead of having the status of "Planet".

The authority of the goddesses that BB compiled and absorbed from the abyss of the mooncell.

It embodies the power of all creation possessed by the mother goddesses—originating from a forgotten goddess approximately 8000 years ago (the goddess of Çatalhöyük) and branching to Tiamat and Cybele, Ishtar, Inanna, Anat, Astarte, Gaia, Hera, Artemis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Athena, etc.

Many are depicted with mural crowns. This is because many of these goddesses were also guardian deities of cities.

Let's take look at its applications.

The symbols of this authority include holes opening the earth and the sky (caves and the moon), whirling tides and waterspouts of the sea, calderas of the volcanoes, etc., and from these, evils that bring all manners of death are birthed. However, after these evils have spread death, they promise certain good harvest and fertility. This authority is none other than the power of bringing death as well as giving life.

The earth mother is worshipped by the people and protects them as a guardian deity, but at the same time, she is the very sacrifice that nurtures them with crops born from her body and beasts of the fields and the forests.

The earth mother nurtures men with her flesh and blood, kills men as time passes to restores herself with her own nourishment, and once again nurtures men with her restored flesh and blood.

This process is the cycle of the food chain, and this cycle of life and death can be said to be the true nature of the earth mother. With this authority, most of the goddesses gave birth to countless monsters and giants, posing threats to gods and men, or they gave birth to heroes, thus protecting people.

As representative examples, Tiamat and Gaia became threats, while Hera is a mother of heroes.

Literally all of its applications are about the Earth and the Moon.

◆

Those born on this earth cannot defy the authority of the mother goddess, as that would mean rebelling against the very system of life. However, when they leave this earth, head to space, and end the childhoood as intelligent lifeforms, they will have broken this authority.

The wish of Çatalhöyük is the coming of that day.

Literally even it being absolute as well is limited to Earth, when humans reach the age of will, they'll leave earth and break the authority itself; this does not look like something that's the source of all things to me, maybe just maybe all things just refer all things on Earth.

You can't even deny this being a divine spirit or god because she wields authority which has been passed down to many other divine spirits and gods.

Authorities are special abilities that fall into a different category than Codecasts, Skills, and Noble Phantasms.

An Authority is a power that is on the level of creating a world, and includes things like altering events, time-flow manipulation, and kingdom building.

Authorities existed in the age known as the Age of Gods, which was about 6000 years ago, but after entering the Common Era human civilization advanced to the point where Authorities were no longer needed, and so Authorities became a relic of the past. A normal skill "is able to accomplish a certain task by following a corresponding principle," but an Authority works "simply by making things happen because one has that right." A divine spirit Servant should naturally possess Authorities, but to use them in the modern age requires a corresponding compensation to be paid (self-destruction).

An authority is something exclusive to divine spirits and the manifestation of their omnipotence, True Ancestor wield something equivalent to that, but it's less of an authority but more of a "System" of the Planet. How is that a goddess wields something affected by Mystery, this goddess is then being argued to be the Swirl of the root, when the Swirl of the root grants powers that are not affected by Mystery lmao, True Magic that which derives from reaching the root of which there are only 5 types, True magic transcends mystery, human knowledge, because it's solely rooted in Gnosis and divine providence, it's isolated from the laws of the world and human knowledge which affects Mystery itself,

「何故かって言うと、魔術ってのは隠されていないと力が薄れてしまうものだから。
神秘の語源は閉ざす、というギリシャ語だけど、魔術は限られた密儀でなければ魔術でなくなってしまう。
文明にとって、未知なるモノ、未開なる場所は拓かれていないからこそ恐怖に値するのと同じね」

"The reason is that magic is weak if it isn't hidden.

The Greek word says that the mysterious etymology is closed, but magic is no longer magic unless it is a limited esoteric.

For civilization, unknown things and undeveloped places are just as scary because they haven't been cultivated. "

「知られたら迫害されるから隠す、じゃないの。
未知でなくなった魔術師……というより魔術ね。
明かされた魔術は力を弱めてしまう。だから隠匿するのよ。何より、魔術師の未来のために」

"If you know it, you'll be persecuted, so hide it.

A magician who is no longer unknown ... Rather than magic.

The revealed magic weakens the power. That's why I hide it. Above all, for the future of the sorcerer. "

Because phenomenology in the verse and human knowledge is the reason why mystery declines, as long as you reveal the mystery of something it becomes less powerful, The increase of human knowledge led to the decrease of mystery, which reduced Divine Spirits to just being mere phenomenon, this mere phenomenon being subjected to the phenomenological aspects of the verse, seeing as the collective will of humanity or collective unconscious, affects to what extent are certain Divine Spirits considered "Real" affects to what extent can a Heroic Spirit wield the power he had in myth.

The collective unconscious can bring about the "being" or shape of something using intellect or knowledge, that's exactly why the more people believe or/and worship the stories of myth of the hero itself, the stronger the heroic spirit will be just as it is with the God's, it is a way to solidify the presence of something that would normally exists as mere phenomenon. If people stop believing in one God or Divine Spirit entirely the God ceases to be.

Yes, if you want to preserve your memories, just take a photo or video. If that's the case, you'll be able to check it even after you've forgotten about it.
However, the magician denied it.
For the first time---that expression takes on something other than a smile.
It's not forever. Things left in the outside world won't last forever. It's true that human technology will eventually be able to create a medium'' that will not be damaged in any accident. Things are unchanging, but we are not unchanging.
Only then can we be given meaning. Even if the thing itself is unchanging,
It is not "eternal" unless the impression of the person measuring it remains unchanged. Can you observe what you saw yesterday in exactly the same state of mind as when you saw it yesterday? Yes, you can't. The observer's mind cannot always remain unchanged.
New things become old, and great things fade. He says that things themselves do not change, but our own minds change the value of things.
You see - whether an individual is immutable or not, it cannot be eternal, right? Why? It's simple, because we are disconnected from things in the outside world.
6/Oblivion recording
To be eternal is to be formless. An event that is not influenced by the observer's impressions but rather controls the observer himself. It is the only eternal phenomenon, a perfect record.
"It's called a record." "Even that record will change later on. I thought it was a good thing at the time.
In many cases, even the most unfortunate events turn out to be bad when you look back on them. No matter where I look, I can't find the eternity you speak of. It's not a record, it's a memory. A memory is nothing more than a person's personality.
Personality changes every time. The personality that changes to adapt to the outside world is like a dress. You should understand. His tone, personality, body, etc. are all just clothes he wears to express himself in an easy-to-understand manner.''
one step. The magician stepped toward me.
“The observer himself becomes the object of observation. It is not the self, but the self that is important.
Recognize and accept that the time you have spent is yourself. Admit that there is no such thing as a definite personality from the beginning. A record is a record of a soul that is unaffected by even its own thoughts.
It's nuclear. That's what will be kept forever. These are your own wounds that you can internalize and be with. Then, even if the world were to disappear, it would remain within you and be yourself.

I find it rather interesting how the characteristics of this goddess in question, bare no resemblance with the Swirl of the root, the effect of phenomenology extends to all things because the observers impressions about particulars of reality ensures that that it is not considered eternal, this extends to all things but an event that is not influenced by the observers impressions, but controls the observer himself, the only eternal phenomenon, a complete record otherwise called the Akashic Records, I don't think we need to get into the Mooncell being called an observer right? Because it observes the Earth? And all observers are dominated by the predestined records within this "perfect, eternal and unchanging record".

I'd be interested to see how anyone can possibly take exactly one statement, that isn't even a rare occurring thing in Type Moon to completely deny the entire power system and world building, it's nigh impossible to even rationalize going against these statements, because exactly one or statements are being used against several, these 2 statements are statements that occur in Type Moon regularly because of loosely some things are being described, same statements that are similar to this statement which become contradicted, either that or the characters with these outlandish statements concede to the fact that the Swirl of the root is the one and true ultimate reality.

Firestorm808 · Jul 15, 2024

RaveeCPN · Jul 15, 2024

Root Magazine 1.jpg

No idea.

Witch on the Holy Night (RAW)

Again, Witch on the Holy Night (RAW)

Kara no Kyoukai, Volume 3 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Fate/Zero, Volume 2, Act 7 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Kara no Kyoukai, Volume 2 (RAW)

Kara no Kyoukai, Volume 1 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II, Volume 2, Chapter 1, Part 2 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II, Volume 2, Chapter 2, Part 2 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II, Volume 6, Chapter 1, Part 2 (RAW)

I will try to send the others when I have more time. That's all from me for now...

Edit:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Kara no Kyoukai, Volume 2 (RAW)

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II, Volume 8, Chapter 4, Part 2 (RAW)

https://imgur.com/BkqgVu1

Fate/Zero, Volume 3, Act 12 (RAW)

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8a1c18f0e72105f477e46c9d31a8528b-lq

Kara no Kyoukai - The Garden of sinners Movie 8: Epilogue

https://imgur.com/a/0K6GoM6

Fate/Apocrypha, Volume 1 (RAW)

https://imgur.com/xAhLaEN

Kara no Kyoukai, Voume 3 (RAW). There were obvious differences between RAW and translation iirc.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II, Volume 1, Chapter 3, Part 2 (RAW)

https://imgur.com/a/pvtamXU

Same with this. Just a different translation.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Garden of Avalon, Chapter 5, The day of Camlann

I'm not sure if I added a wrong RAW in any particular place. If so, just let me know. I will fix it quickly. I'm also not sure if I can help more, I'm a bit busy at these days and I'd rather not spend all day looking for RAWs.

Tdjwo · Jul 17, 2024

RaveeCPN · Jul 18, 2024

Firestorm808 said:
Alright, I need you guys to figure out where all these came from:

https://gyazo.com/208fe951e9325a73adef1bed767857a2

Fate/Hollow Ataraxia (RAW)

Fate/Stay Night, Fate Route, Day 3 (RAW)

https://gyazo.com/49c0563803cd61a757397f9d64ccdf51

Fate/Stay Night, Prologue, Day 2 (RAW)

Fate/Prototype Drama CD - On-ship Christmas Murder Case (Source (Text) and (Drama CD)

Kara no Kyoukai - The Garden of sinners Movie 4: The Hollow Shrine

Do we really need this..?

https://gyazo.com/baeae27eeb16517dcb8562719c8eac91

Kara no Kyoukai - The Garden of sinners Movie 4: The Hollow Shrine

First two scans: Kara no Kyoukai - The Garden of sinners Movie 4: The Hollow Shrine
Third one: Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files, Volume 5, Chapter 2, Part 4 (RAW)

https://i.imgur.com/9BUUsH0.jpeg

Again, Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files, Volume 5, Chapter 2, Part 4 (RAW)

https://imgur.com/a/cxiRgw3

Fate/EXTRA CCC (RAW (1. | 2. | 3. | 4.)

https://imgur.com/a/HSoBZiJ and https://imgur.com/a/mErTtGb

Same as the one above...

https://imgur.com/sVWKW09, https://imgur.com/uXRhMT4, https://imgur.com/SrZYhXg

Not sure on this. Prolly Fate/Extra CCC?

https://imgur.com/Z3aoj62

Fate/Grand Order: Cosmos in the Lostbelt - Imaginary Scramble (RAW)

https://imgur.com/sEsoCEF

Fate/Grand Order: Cosmos in the Lostbelt - Yuga Kshetra: Samsara of Genesis and Terminus (RAW)

https://imgur.com/BdpSaWi and https://imgur.com/UPmiRjb

Lord El-Melloi II Sei no Jikenbo: Rail Zeppelin Grace Note, Episode 10

https://imgur.com/HdpyAWv and https://imgur.com/Q5aEbm8

Kara no Kyoukai: the Garden of Sinners, Volume 4, Chapter 22 (RAW)

https://imgur.com/a/VER43fd and https://imgur.com/a/hdTFlo4

Fate Extra CCC (Full version)

There are only 21 references left to find... I'll prolly send them tomorrow- Also, will there be a voting phase now? I still don't understand what we are waiting for.

Firestorm808 · Jul 18, 2024

We are still in the scans peer review and deliberation period.

Tdjwo · Jul 18, 2024

RaveeCPN said:
Fate/Hollow Ataraxia (RAW)

Fate/Stay Night, Fate Route, Day 3 (RAW)

Fate/Stay Night, Prologue, Day 2 (RAW)

Fate/Prototype Drama CD - On-ship Christmas Murder Case (Source (Text) and (Drama CD)

Kara no Kyoukai - The Garden of sinners Movie 4: The Hollow Shrine

Do we really need this..?

Kara no Kyoukai - The Garden of sinners Movie 4: The Hollow Shrine

First two scans: Kara no Kyoukai - The Garden of sinners Movie 4: The Hollow Shrine
Third one: Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files, Volume 5, Chapter 2, Part 4 (RAW)

Again, Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files, Volume 5, Chapter 2, Part 4 (RAW)

Fate/EXTRA CCC (RAW (1. | 2. | 3. | 4.)

Same as the one above...

Not sure on this. Prolly Fate/Extra CCC?

Fate/Grand Order: Cosmos in the Lostbelt - Imaginary Scramble (RAW)

Fate/Grand Order: Cosmos in the Lostbelt - Yuga Kshetra: Samsara of Genesis and Terminus (RAW)

Lord El-Melloi II Sei no Jikenbo: Rail Zeppelin Grace Note, Episode 10

Kara no Kyoukai: the Garden of Sinners, Volume 4, Chapter 22 (RAW)

Fate Extra CCC (Full version)

There are only 21 references left to find... I'll prolly send them tomorrow- Also, will there be a voting phase now? I still don't understand what we are waiting for.

Thanks a lot bro

Deagonx · Jul 18, 2024

ShadowWhoWalks said:
First of all, I'd like to know:

Whether you deny that Imaginary Number Space exists in the Reverse Side of the World.

Whether you think that human Magi manipulating and accessing the "nothingness" of Imaginary Number Space are accessing and manipulating the Root.

I made major points related to the above two questions in my previous comment. This is a notification in case you somehow haven't seen them, and a reminder to address them in case you did.

For you first objection, I don't like to get into what appears to me a fuss over semantics. So for the sake of removing obstacles to more substantive engagement, please feel free to switch X in my point to "the root that gave rise to all creation", "the root that created all creation", "the root that birthed all creation", "the root that originated all creation", "the root that conceived all creation", or whatever close equivalent.

I'm not claiming INS is the same as the root. Second, my objection to your phrasing is the placement of the quotations themselves. The quotations are solely and exclusively around the term "the Root." So regardless of how the segment afterwards is parsed, it will be "in other words, 'the Root' that birthed all creation." Putting quotes around the entire phrase obfuscates that, but it is crucial to interpreting it.

ShadowWhoWalks said:
As for your second objection, what do the Mother Goddesses possess beside what they created?

I was pointing out that you interpreted the phrase's grammar incorrectly. This is the phrase:

It is the embodiment of the power to create all things that the Mother Goddesses possess, originating approximately 8000 years ago from a goddess who already lost her name

BB's authority, one of the powers of this Primordial Goddess who is identifies as the Root that birthed all creation, is described as the embodiment of the "power to create all things." It then says that the Mother Goddesses possess this power. You seemed to be interpreting the power as being able to "Create all things that the mother Goddesses possess" which is incorrect. The fact that this Primordial Goddess is said to have the power to create all things and is described as "the Root" that birthed all creation is damning, IMO.

Theoretical said:
Gilgamesh gains the power that's on par with the supposed authority of BB which is just allegedly the Swirl of the root digitized and the mother goddess in question herself is the Swirl of the root and defeats her, this is the same person who's equal to BB is inferior to Kiara. The same Kiara who's inferior as Amaterasu and Arcueid in the Moon. Arcueid who refers to the Swirl of the root as "Absolute", is the same Arcueid who's beyond the Swirl of the root? Seeing as she's the only one capable of defeating Amaterasu in the entire Extra Verse, are we being genuine when we are saying the description of Void Shiki sent so far are identical? BB is said to not have significance and no intellect? No?

The ranks of the abilities being the same is meaningless, we've completely discarded rank-based scaling due to abilities of the same rank being wildly different. Moreover, I didn't say that BB is described the same way as Shiki in every capacity, I specifically pointed out an example where they share a very unique ability.

"An Anti-World Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3D printer that crushes the present world with the world desired by the users."

"So I can do anything. ... It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."

I won't quibble over who is stronger than who, as it's not really an argument for how that phrase should be interpreted, just that the lore as-written is not cohesive which is... abundant in Nasuverse as a whole. You kept referencing the Reverse Side of the World as some other-worldly realm, which it was, but you may be forgetting that in FGO they literally went there by drilling physically deep into the Earth. Moreover, the same way Shiki does not literally scale to the Root, BB does not literally scale to the Moon Cell. You don't have to destroy the Moon Cell to defeat her. Meanwhile, the actual Primordial Goddess herself scales far higher than Amaterasu does.

Theoretical said:
Let's take look at its applications.
Literally all of its applications are about the Earth and the Moon.

That's just the Authority, I don't know why you're hyperfixating on that. It isn't the only power she has or something.

Theoretical said:
Obviously, if you have a company that has been releasing source material for well over 20+ years, you're going to find statements like that, which obviously is cause to analyze the statements with caution instead of taking something as ambiguous as being said to be the source of all things, right after they say "creator of earth" and mother goddess, when there are several characters with the similar statements

Theoretical said:
I'd be interested to see how anyone can possibly take exactly one statement, that isn't even a rare occurring thing in Type Moon to completely deny the entire power system and world building, it's nigh impossible to even rationalize going against these statements, because exactly one or statements are being used against several, these 2 statements are statements that occur in Type Moon regularly because of loosely some things are being described, same statements that are similar to this statement which become contradicted, either that or the characters with these outlandish statements concede to the fact that the Swirl of the root is the one and true ultimate reality.

It's not ambiguity. You are introduce faux ambiguity by changing the translation to obfuscate the fact that its the same word as the root and removing the quotations that signify it as a specific term. Being "the Root" that gave rise to all things is not some generic phrase that gets thrown carelessly the way you're claiming.

Deagonx · Jul 18, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
So the Moon Cell contains an exact copy of the entire cosmology inside of it, including the Root, thus making it comparable to the Root itself? And this is what is meant by BB having "digitized" the nothingness, I take it, based on your comments?

Because, yeah, if that be the case, it's pretty damning, from the sound of it.

The source material isn't that direct, and Nasuverse as a whole isn't that consistent. The Primordial Goddess, who's data BB used is described as "the Root" that gave rise to all creation. It was through this power that BB was said to have digitized the "nothingness" before life began, and got the power to overwrite the world in the manner that Shiki says she can.

"An Anti-World Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3D printer that crushes the present world with the world desired by the users."
"So I can do anything. ... It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."

The Moon Cell records all with light. Made by a civilization not of the consumerist humans, conceptual calculation unbound by matter――
By nature, the passage of time as a concept is not observable here. The past, present, and future are all processed in parallel.
The Spiritron supercomputer which has recorded all information since before mankind's creation― the "Moon Cell."
The Moon Cell is a record monster. It observes the Earth's, no, humanity's activities. It's the recording eye of a god.
In any case I think it's just one data point among several. I think Shiki's presence in the Root, as well as Fujimaru's subsequent presence in the Root, are more straightforward.

"All alone, in the shape of Shiki, inside of 「」."

Also, you (Ultima) had mentioned this point to me, from the OP:

"—The swirl of the Root is a 'place' where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever." - Kara no Kyoukai: Epilogue

Notice that Ryougi (Void) even puts "place" in quotation marks, before anyone thinks this means it's just another space-time realm. And she does this consistently:

"—Shiki is looking at the outside, while I am looking at the interior. But the interior, Ryougi Shiki's body, is in communion with that "place" they call the Root. So even though I see only the inside of her, I see...everything." - Kara no Kyoukai: Epilogue

The quotation marks aren't in the source material, I just realized. The fan who translated it added them.

ShadowWhoWalks · Jul 19, 2024

Deagonx said:
I'm not claiming INS is the same as the root.

You argued BB's "nothingness" refers to the Swirl of the Root.
The problem is that BB's "nothingness" is explicitly Imaginary Number Space.

Imaginary Spiritron Trap
concept/noble phantasm

Ryoushi Kyokou Kansei.
This is BB’s imaginary number space which is depicted as black noise and black tentacles in game. Anyone who comes into contact will be unable to do anything as BB takes ownership of their data.
As far as an intelligent lifeform’s existence in cyberspace is concerned, their data is the foundation of their existence, and after being trapped BB can freely alter that data… essentially throwing their existence into disorder.
Wizards maintain themselves with an “unshakable ego” that is defined in cyberspace using pseudo-spiritrons, but BB’s tentacles, like the tongue of an enchantress, can even take control of those spiritrons and invade and prey upon them.
This is the biggest bug ever to exist in the history of Moon Cell.
The true nature of the tentacles is the very being of the far side of the Moon;
Negative, Cursed, Cutting, Crater.

Trisha's elemental affinity was for Imaginary Numbers, she remembered. Imaginary Numbers space, where "nothingness" existed as an actual thing, was something like a dimensional pocket, a place where objects would be freed from interaction with the flow of space and time.
The only thing that could interact with this dimensional pocket was the original spell.
Primarily that meant only someone with the same affinity for Imaginary Numbers could access it, but in certain cases there were other methods. Or so she had heard from Trisha.

In addition, the Mooncell specifically records what is on Earth. We know INS exists on Earth. According to you, how did the Swirl of the Root get recorded and digitilized if it is 'pretty ridiculous' for it to exist on Earth?

Deagonx said:
Second, my objection to your phrasing is the placement of the quotations themselves. The quotations are solely and exclusively around the term "the Root." So regardless of how the segment afterwards is parsed, it will be "in other words, 'the Root' that birthed all creation." Putting quotes around the entire phrase obfuscates that, but it is crucial to interpreting it.

For the sake of removing further obstacles to more substantive engagement, please feel free to switch X in my point to ['the root' that gave rise to all creation], ['the root' that created all creation], ['the root' that birthed all creation], ['the root' that originated all creation], ['the root' that conceived all creation], or whatever close equivalent.

The reason she is X is because she created the Earth Mothers who created earth. This is only coherent if 'creation' refers to whatever the Earth Mothers created.

In which you add in lieu X what is between the brackets ([ ]), including the quotation marks, without neccessarily adding the brackets themselves.
You can capitalize the word 'root' for illustrative reasons, however whether it refers to the Swirl of the Root is the very topic of contention and is to be argued.

Deagonx said:
I was pointing out that you interpreted the phrase's grammar incorrectly. This is the phrase:

It is the embodiment of the power to create all things that the Mother Goddesses possess, originating approximately 8000 years ago from a goddess who already lost her name

BB's authority, one of the powers of this Primordial Goddess who is identifies as the Root that birthed all creation, is described as the embodiment of the "power to create all things." It then says that the Mother Goddesses possess this power. You seemed to be interpreting the power as being able to "Create all things that the mother Goddesses possess" which is incorrect. The fact that this Primordial Goddess is said to have the power to create all things and is described as "the Root" that birthed all creation is damning, IMO.

Gaia is also said to have birthed everything:

Demeter
I'm the goddess of the land, and the land has always been mother to all things.

Demeter
First, there was Chaos. Then Gaia, the land, came forth and gave birth to everything.

Can you explain what this means according to you?

This power didn't exist 10,000 years ago. What created things before the existence of this power? The planet, the cosmos, and indeed Tiamat herself (aka. Goddess of the Beginning), pre-exist this power.

An additional point is that goddesses in the Nasuverse are inherently born and empowered through human worship:

Professor
There were a few different civilizations that flourished back in the Origin Universe, and the most powerful of them was the Goddess Civilization.
This ancient civilization did not consider the word goddess to refer to a position or an individual life-form.
For them, the word “goddess” referred to areas where humans could survive and thrive.
Back in your universe, you have something known as the mother goddess, correct?
As I understand it, the male gods ensured humans would have war and prosperity, while the mother goddess promised them existence and dominance.
Many of the mother goddess's symbols are said to be castles, fortresses, and crowns—things one would expect one's protector of livelihood to have.
Similarly, the goddesses of the Origin Universe were originally no more than concepts—the religious respect people had for the zone that enabled them to survive.
Over time, those concepts gained personality and became true goddesses that took more direct approaches in the Origin Universe's affairs.
Those particular circumstances of their birth, so to speak, may explain both why these goddesses were so incredibly powerful, and why they were so hostile to outside civilizations.

Lynchpin of Heaven
That which exemplifies Gilgamesh's way of life. That which expresses how the gods of ancient times lived and his birthplace.
In history, the gods of the universe are split into two categories. When things that were already there become gods, and when things are reborn as gods.
Things that were already there are when things such as heavenly bodies, like the sun and moon, or natural phenomena, like storms or earthquakes, become the objects of worship.
Things that are reborn as gods is when they were human in the beginning, but due to various factors, they deviated from being human and became the objects of worship. Heroes and messiahs and systems necessary to thrive fall under this category.

Per Nasuverse rules, the person known as Goddess of Çatalhöyük is born from deification of something observed by human worshippers (in other words, not the Swirl of the Root, unless you are claiming the Swirl of the Root is in plain sight), and said goddess would either be dead due to lack of people who remember her or have retreated to the Reverse Side of the World post Age of the Gods.

Ultima_Reality · Jul 19, 2024

Deagonx said:
The source material isn't that direct, and Nasuverse as a whole isn't that consistent. The Primordial Goddess, who's data BB used is described as "the Root" that gave rise to all creation. It was through this power that BB was said to have digitized the "nothingness" before life began, and got the power to overwrite the world in the manner that Shiki says she can.

"An Anti-World Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3D printer that crushes the present world with the world desired by the users."
"So I can do anything. ... It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."

The Moon Cell records all with light. Made by a civilization not of the consumerist humans, conceptual calculation unbound by matter――
By nature, the passage of time as a concept is not observable here. The past, present, and future are all processed in parallel.
The Spiritron supercomputer which has recorded all information since before mankind's creation― the "Moon Cell."
The Moon Cell is a record monster. It observes the Earth's, no, humanity's activities. It's the recording eye of a god.
In any case I think it's just one data point among several.

It is information, certainly. Whether this information does anything entirely depends on what exactly it's supposed to mean. So, I ask again: Is BB on the level of the Root because of that "digitization"? Did she scan the Root and make a copy of it somehow? If she isn't and she didn't, then I'm not sure what this point is supposed to be conveying. You said it was "pretty cut and dry," so I expected something concrete.

This whole branch of the discussion came to be after a response you made to pieces of evidence that can impact the rest pretty significantly, so, it is something relevant to debate on.

GarrixianXD · Jul 19, 2024

I was asked to post this by a user offsite, none of this is mine:

Btw, Shiki admits inferiority to arc in an official drama CD (All-Around Type Moon)

Arcueid: Ergh, so what about you Ryougi? Do you like the world of Fate?

Shiki: Not in particular, Mikiya isn't there. Sure my wishes will be granted but don't wishes get granted normally?
Arcueid: Uh, um, how direct.
Saber: Well, that would be because you're God to be blunt. You wouldn't know the pain of those without.
Shiki: Don't make such a stupid analogy. I'm nothing. The stupid woman over there doesn't have any limits. She can make a castle just by her imagination you know?
Arcueid: I've got a lot of restrictions too though. Oh, so it looks that way to you two, well, the most practical one is Saber though.

Aight,
Also for the drama CD scan, Arcueid saying “I have a lot of restrictions too!” In response to shiki implies she(Shiki) has some form of restriction to her power. Arcueid later says that the most practical out of them (basically who has the least restrictions), is artoria.

Also, everyone who is connected to the root shouldn’t be assumed to scale to it, in the AOG,every single mage was connected to it via a divine spirit.

"I'm sure you heard in the Clock Tower about how pretty much everyone played by their own different rules in the Age of Gods, right? Did you know that Age of Gods mages weren't after the Root?"
I remember hearing that.
That was because the gods were a regular part of reality in the Age of Gods.
"If I recall correctly, it was because in the Age of Gods, making a contract with a god closer to the Root connected the mage directly to the Root."
"That's right", Rin nodded.

Theoretical_Toxic19 · Jul 19, 2024

I'll respond to everything by tomorrow, IMO.

Theoretical_Toxic19 · Jul 19, 2024

GarrixianXD said:
I was asked to post this by a user offsite, none of this is mine:

Yeah, I think most people here probably know who it is

Tdjwo · Jul 19, 2024

GarrixianXD said:
I was asked to post this by a user offsite, none of this is mine:

Btw, Shiki admits inferiority to arc in an official drama CD (All-Around Type Moon)

Aight,
Also for the drama CD scan, Arcueid saying “I have a lot of restrictions too!” In response to shiki implies she(Shiki) has some form of restriction to her power. Arcueid later says that the most practical out of them (basically who has the least restrictions), is artoria.

Also, everyone who is connected to the root shouldn’t be assumed to scale to it, in the AOG,every single mage was connected to it via a divine spirit.

"I'm sure you heard in the Clock Tower about how pretty much everyone played by their own different rules in the Age of Gods, right? Did you know that Age of Gods mages weren't after the Root?"
I remember hearing that.
That was because the gods were a regular part of reality in the Age of Gods.
"If I recall correctly, it was because in the Age of Gods, making a contract with a god closer to the Root connected the mage directly to the Root."
"That's right", Rin nodded.

This is obviously Marshadow. Whatever he spews out regarding this topic is always rubbish. Also, he was specifically banned from Nasu topics. There's no reason his points should be taken into account here.

GarrixianXD · Jul 19, 2024

Tdjwo said:
This is obviously Marshadow. Whatever he spews out regarding this topic is always rubbish. Also, he was specifically banned from Nasu topics. There's no reason his points should be taken into account here.

I should make myself clear that I fulfilled the user’s request since I thought the content in the post might be useful for the topic. And I’m uncertain if the content originated from Marshadow.

Deagonx · Jul 20, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
So, I ask again: Is BB on the level of the Root because of that "digitization"? Did she scan the Root and make a copy of it somehow? If she isn't and she didn't, then I'm not sure what this point is supposed to be conveying. You said it was "pretty cut and dry," so I expect something concrete.

I'll recap the relevant information. In the "information matrix" for BB in the game, we have the following quotes:

The mother of the Earth goddesses who created the Earth is, in other words, "the Root" from which all things came into being. This anti-world Noble Phantasm outputs that information through an ultra-precise 3D printer and crushes the present world with the world the user desires.

With the power of the primordial goddess at hand, BB succeeded in digitizing the "nothingness" before the birth of life.

The authority of the goddesses that BB compiled and absorbed from the abyss of the Moon Cell. It embodies the power of all creation possessed by the mother goddesses—originating from a forgotten goddess approximately 8000 years ago (the goddess of Çatalhöyük) and branching to Tiamat and Cybele, Ishtar, Inanna, Anat, Astarte, Gaia, Hera, Artemis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Athena, etc.

As to your questions, I wouldn't say BB is on the level of the Root any more than Shiki is (who -- canonically -- cannot just neg everybody in the verse with her root powers). She has access to specific and very powerful abilities as a result of this, some of these abilities directly reflect Shiki's described void abilities. The origin of these powers is described to be the data of a primordial goddess described as "the Root" from which all things came into being, just like Shiki's.

Moreover, "Potnia Theron" is how Manaka is described by Paracelsus in Prototype Fragments, who believes her to be the embodiment of the Root.

世界そのものにさえ等しい、万物を生む根源がかたちを成した少女。沙条愛歌。

A woman who is equal to the world itself, a woman who has taken the form of the Root that gives birth to all things. Manaka Sajyou

「何故、私を殺し、根源の女王(ポトニアテローン)にその聖剣を向けないのか」

"Why don't you kill me and turn your holy sword towards the Queen of the Root (Potnia Theron)?

Small note on this, it's not in parantheses in the source material, it's ruby text above the phrase "Queen of the Root." @Agnaa explained this is technically meant to tell you how to pronounce it but authors will often use it to give alternate titles for things. "Potnia Theron" is the ruby text above BB's ability as well. Notably, Potnia Theron refers specifically to Catalhoyuk, the goddess that is "the Root" that gives rise to all creation.

Ideally that should eliminate any ambiguity as to the meaning of "the Root" when referring to Catalhoyuk. It is no coincidence that Manaka was deemed "Potnia Theron" by Paracelsus in regards to her being "Queen of the Root" or "taking the form of the Root that gives birth to all things." I'll note that Paracelsus is a very credible source on the subject:

我が父こそ魔術師の極みと信じていたが、今この瞬間、玲瓏館当主たる男は己の数十年に渡る認識を改める他になかった。見よ、この叡智秘めた瞳を。彼は根源へ触れたことなどない筈なのに、強く理解してしまう。玲瓏館歴代当主の誰よりも。否。少なくとも、この極東に於ける魔術師の誰よりも、彼は根源へ近い

He believed his father was the ultimate magus, but now in this moment, the man who was the master of the Reiroukans had no choice but to alter his perception for decades. Behold, these wisdom hidden eyes. He must never have touched the Root, but he strongly understood it. More so than any of the successive Reiroukan masters. No. At least, he is closer to the Root than any of the magi in the Far East.

It would seem, then, that the fact that the Moon Cell had the "data" of this primordial goddess Catalhoyuk, identified as the "Root" that gives birth to all things, is fairly problematic.

Deagonx · Jul 20, 2024

ShadowWhoWalks said:
Gaia is also said to have birthed everything:

Demeter
I'm the goddess of the land, and the land has always been mother to all things.

Demeter
First, there was Chaos. Then Gaia, the land, came forth and gave birth to everything.

Can you explain what this means according to you?

This power didn't exist 10,000 years ago. What created things before the existence of this power? The planet, the cosmos, and indeed Tiamat herself (aka. Goddess of the Beginning), pre-exist this power.

It didn't come into existence 8,000 years ago, that's just when Catalhoyuk disappeared. Regardless, I don't think citing Gaia, Demeter or Tiamat is useful for you here, because both of them derive their power from Catalhoyuk and the fact that they have conflicting stories is attributable to the fact that they may not know about Catalhoyuk, and conflicting religious beliefs are common in Type-Moon.

ShadowWhoWalks said:
You can capitalize the word 'root' for illustrative reasons, however whether it refers to the Swirl of the Root is the very topic of contention and is to be argued.

My response above covers this in more detail, but essentially: The fact that Paracelsus regards Manaka as "Potnia Theron" -- the Goddess of Catalhoyuk's authority (Potnia Theron itself as a real world concept being directly associated with Catalhoyuk) that passed down to the various Earth Goddesses (the Ten Crowns ability that comes from the primordial goddess is also called Potnia Theron), and that the subtext of that title is her being called "Queen of the Root" should eliminate any ambiguity that the two are closely related and that if Catalhoyuk is being referred to as "the root" then it's indeed the Root, not some generic origin or root.

Ultima_Reality · Jul 20, 2024

Deagonx said:
It would seem, then, that the fact that the Moon Cell had the "data" of this primordial goddess Catalhoyuk, identified as the "Root" that gives birth to all things, is fairly problematic.

Hm. What does it mean for the Moon Cell to "have the data" of something in itself, though? Do we know that, in this context?

Deagonx · Jul 20, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Hm. What does it mean for the Moon Cell to "have the data" of something in itself, though? Do we know that, in this context?

I mean, basically literally what it means, unless I'm misunderstanding the question.

However, wizards are capable of far more than that, they can digitize and spiritize their consciousness and physical body, creating a copy that is sent inside [the cyber world]. It is the materialization of soul inside the cyber world.

To be a true hacker, one must have the rare ability to clearly imagine the nature of one’s body virtually as a sequence of numbers

To put it simply Moon Cell is, “The eye that observes the Earth.” Moon Cell is a computational device that accurately simulates all of Earth and its life forms, and can even accurately predict the future. Moon Cell is a database of humanity. A colossal memory device that has recorded mankind’s ecology and history, and even the thoughts and souls of [all] people.

It is the brain that stores the data about the past and future. It observes the determination of every possible destiny every second, computes further results, and stores everything inside itself as light.1 There are untold tens of millions of lights years of light trapped within the core, and the entire photonic crystal structure is also powered by it. A certain person named Moon Cell‘s core, “The Destiny Perceiving Dendrogram.” Just by using information encoded by converging light Moon Cell‘s core can even rewrite the laws of physics.^1 Stores as light means stores in the photonic crystal (think super advanced fiber optics).

We'll start first with you, Hakuno――― I will convert every one of your components― your flesh, mind, soul― into detailed data.

However, if you look closely, a digital "human body" is a reconstruction with a soul anchored to it via Spiritrons.
It's practically a dungeon. The soul, something which is metaphysical, is given meaning and designed using quasi-Spiritrons.

The breeze against my cheeks feels pleasant. Wind in the SE.RA.PH is a recreation of wind on Earth.
A digital wind formed of numerical values, indistinguishable from the real thing.
Can it be called "real?" Or should it be called "something virtual that's better than the real thing?"
It's a philosophical question―

The Moon Cell is the eye of god. Within the Core is its storage medium, made of photons, which exists on a higher dimension.

This body, this mind...is not human. I am just a remnant of a real life, a packet of data. A collection of ones and zeros.
Knowing that you're merely data, do you still have a reason to win the Holy Grail War?
Though I am just ones and zeros, I fight, and kill, living beings. When I think about how pathetic it sounds, my heart turns to ice.

While I have no attachment to this virtual world created from ones and zeroes, I am intrigued by it.

You can see it through the gate. There lies the Moon's core, an object made from the purest photonic crystal.
The results of the simulations of Earth's future run by the Moon Cell are stored as light within the core.
The one who reaches the core has the right to choose the course of the future from infinite possibilities.
I'm sure you understand now. Whoever claims the Moon Cell can manipulate reality as they see fit.

This object, which envisioned an infinite number of possible futures, can reshape the fabric of reality.
If what he says is true, then the Holy Grail could accurately be considered the mind and will of god.
Nothing is impossible. It is truly an object of unimaginable power with infinite possibilities.

Ultima_Reality · Jul 20, 2024

Deagonx said:
I mean, basically literally what it means, unless I'm misunderstanding the question.

So, basically storing things in a simulation made of photons? It's not that things in the outside world are made out of information already and then "dragged" into the computer, but moreso that the Moon Cell can generate informational versions of them inside of its crystals? That's largely what I was wondering.

Honestly, the first option doesn't sound very coherent if the digitized "nothingness before life" is the Root, but looking at this now, I'm not at all sure of what the problem is even supposed to be. If it is the Root, then a problem only arises if the Moon Cell is actually circumscribing the thing in some way. But from what I can gather, it's not actually doing that at all, and is still encompassed by the Root (And from what Theoretical said up there, characters who are absolutely inferior to the Root cause stress to its capabilities), so, what's the problem here?

Deagonx · Jul 20, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
So, basically storing things in a simulation made of photons? It's not that things in the outside world are made out of information already and then "dragged" into the computer, but moreso that the Moon Cell can generate informational versions of them inside of its crystals? That's largely what I was wondering.

Honestly, the first option doesn't sound very coherent if the digitized "nothingness before life" is the Root, but looking at this now, I'm not at all sure of what the problem is even supposed to be. If it is the Root, then a problem only arises if the Moon Cell is actually circumscribing the thing in some way. But from what I can gather, it's not actually doing that at all, and is still encompassed by the Root (And from what Theoretical said up there, characters who are absolutely inferior to the Root cause stress to its capabilities), so, what's the problem here?

I think it presents a few problems. The first is that a supercomputer shouldn't be able to analyze, digitize, and then emulate an ineffable monad or replicate it's powers. Moreover, the Root is identified as being a specific Goddess whose power was passed down to some of the most powerful beings in the verse, and these powers of the Root -- too -- can be digitized and recreated. Powers that Void Shiki describes herself.

Agnaa · Jul 20, 2024

@Tdjwo I deleted your post as:

This is a staff-only thread, which you've made many posts in, and are not the OP of, and I don't believe you've gotten permission from a bureaucrat to make an unlimited amount of posts.
Your post added no new information, and provided no evidence (new or old). It was just you saying "that's wrong" and accusing Deagon of arguing in bad faith, which isn't productive.

Please get permission to post and keep your posts productive in the future.

Grand_Saver_Ritsuka · Jul 20, 2024

Ultima_Reality said:
Hm. What does it mean for the Moon Cell to "have the data" of something in itself, though? Do we know that, in this context?

Ultima, A friend of mine in this site aka HyperZero would like to comment here (He is very knowledgable in TM). Can you grant permission?

Grand_Saver_Ritsuka · Jul 20, 2024

Tdjwo said:
This is obviously Marshadow. Whatever he spews out regarding this topic is always rubbish. Also, he was specifically banned from Nasu topics. There's no reason his points should be taken into account here.

Further more, Marsh is a banned user and the drama CD is entirely non canon. Shiki, Saber, and Arc don't ever meet up like this in canon. In fact Shiki straight up kills Archetype in AA

Theoretical_Toxic19 · Jul 20, 2024

Deagonx said:
Moreover, the same way Shiki does not literally scale to the Root, BB does not literally scale to the Moon Cell. You don't have to destroy the Moon Cell to defeat her. Meanwhile, the actual Primordial Goddess herself scales far higher than Amaterasu does.

This thread is a fever dream, but I'm glad you glossed over the other stuff I said, makes my job easier, I won't respond to repeated arguments as well.

Velber can destroy the Mooncell, Velber stabbed the Moon, jacked information within the Mooncell and consumed the possible worlds the Mooncell had accumulated as well, Amaterasu has more power output than Sefar? This goddess was recorded by the Mooncell? Amaterasu is a being roughly on the same class in power as Sefar, her power output in fact exceeds that of Sefar, who can destroy the Moon, yet she has the potential of losing to someone weakened, same person who refers to the Swirl of the root as "Absolute First" again.

Furthermore, the Umbral Star hacked into the mooncell and sent the Ark of the stars in it, created Zero Dark, which cannot be observed by the far side nor near side of the Mooncell, it is not part of the system and thus hasn't and can't be recorded, infact the notion of inputting the Ark in the Mooncell wounded it, Sefar destroys it by just screaming, the same dimension the Mooncell quickly removed from its system, failed to destroy it and let it be, on top of the Ark having computational power on par with the Mooncell, the Mooncell in itself entirely perceives the Velber as a threat.

GarrixianXD said:
I should make myself clear that I fulfilled the user’s request since I thought the content in the post might be useful for the topic. And I’m uncertain if the content originated from Marshadow.

It's fine, but it is him, I talked to him a few days ago and he mentioned this too; weird he told me the Swirl of the root being the highest thing in the nasuverse and just disagrees with Ryougi scaling to it Lmao.

Deagonx said:
That's just the Authority, I don't know why you're hyperfixating on that. It isn't the only power she has or something.

Authority is the manifestation of the omnipotence of a god and divine spirit, this is the same authority in question which gives birth to all things, which again, becomes broken once you leave the planet itself, it's limited to it, that's exactly why Gaia is said to give birth to all things, yet Gaia only gives birth to things on the planet, because "all things" is specifically them referring to the earth.

◆

Those born on this earth cannot defy the authority of the mother goddess, as that would mean rebelling against the very system of life. However, when they leave this earth, head to space, and end the childhoood as intelligent lifeforms, they will have broken this authority.

The wish of Çatalhöyük is the coming of that day.

Deagonx said:
It's not ambiguity. You are introduce faux ambiguity by changing the translation to obfuscate the fact that its the same word as the root and removing the quotations that signify it as a specific term. Being "the Root" that gave rise to all things is not some generic phrase that gets thrown carelessly the way you're claiming.

This is really just repeating your belief that it is actually "the Swirl of the root", not interested in respond to repetitive arguments, especially when I gave an extensive response to this, I gave you examples , if you choose to ignore them then that's on you, one of them was them talking about World Egg, Arcueids soul, which was said to be the symmetry of Stars, from which all things began and to which things return back to, the same person who distinguishes between herself and the Swirl of the root.

Deagonx said:
「何故、私を殺し、根源の女王(ポトニアテローン)にその聖剣を向けないのか」

Before I respond, where is this from? especially this portion "けないのか」"

GarrixianXD said:
Aight,
Also for the drama CD scan, Arcueid saying “I have a lot of restrictions too!” In response to shiki implies she(Shiki) has some form of restriction to her power. Arcueid later says that the most practical out of them (basically who has the least restrictions), is artoria.

I know, Marshadow is banned from Nasuverse topic nonetheless but the person speaking here, isn't Shiki Ryougi, it's just regular Shiki, the pitch of the voice of 「Shiki Ryougi」 and that of Ryougi Shiki is different, Ryougi's one comes off as more masculine as it does here, assuming he just picked this up from reddit or space battles. Ryougi defeats and kills Archetype Earth nonetheless, the tone at which she was speaking about Arcueid there and in Melty Blood had changed too, considering how confident she was when going up against her.

I was actually not here for these arguments tho, I wanted to say I was mistaken, this is something that I actually forgot. But Ryougi Shiki didn't survive because of the origin of nothingness, it was because her other personality chose to die in place of her.

Shiki was actually in the process of disappearing or rather fading into nothingness but instead of her, SHIKI gets separated from Shiki, then Shiki gets sent somewhere else whilst SHIKI in spirit stays in the Swirl of the root and after being seperated from Shiki, SHIKI seemingly fades into nothingness, in this same scene, Shiki says this is "death", she continues on to talk about the Swirl of the root is a world that can only be reached by the dead, it is fundamentally impossible for the living to behold the Swirl of the root, she begins to wonder why is she the only one alive, but after this, is where she begins to be separated from SHIKI and she also says not even "nothingness" exists here, so I guess in a sense not even nothingness is something that can encapsulate it but that's not the point. (for the raws)

The only part of the root, that appears to be somewhat accessible is the Akasha, but sometimes the names tend to overlap with one another.

Theoretical said:
Because phenomenology in the verse and human knowledge is the reason why mystery declines, as long as you reveal the mystery of something it becomes less powerful, The increase of human knowledge led to the decrease of mystery, which reduced Divine Spirits to just being mere phenomenon, this mere phenomenon being subjected to the phenomenological aspects of the verse, seeing as the collective will of humanity or collective unconscious, affects to what extent are certain Divine Spirits considered "Real" affects to what extent can a Heroic Spirit wield the power he had in myth.

The collective unconscious can bring about the "being" or shape of something using intellect or knowledge, that's exactly why the more people believe or/and worship the stories of myth of the hero itself, the stronger the heroic spirit will be just as it is with the God's, it is a way to solidify the presence of something that would normally exists as mere phenomenon. If people stop believing in one God or Divine Spirit entirely the God ceases to be.

I take it you don't have an issue with this Goddess being confined by the collective unconscious, seeing as you seem reluctant to respond to what I said.

Theoretical said:
I find it rather interesting how the characteristics of this goddess in question, bear no resemblance with the Swirl of the root, the effect of phenomenology extends to all things because the observers impressions about particulars of reality ensures that that it is not considered eternal, this extends to all things but an event that is not influenced by the observers impressions, but controls the observer himself, the only eternal phenomenon, a complete record otherwise called the Akashic Records, I don't think we need to get into the Mooncell being called an observer right? Because it observes the Earth? And all observers are dominated by the predestined records within this "perfect, eternal and unchanging record".

I take it you also don't have an issue with the Swirl of the root exceeding that goddess then, repeating things won't solidify them.

Deagonx · Jul 20, 2024

Theoretical said:
Before I respond, where is this from? especially this portion "けないのか」"

This is from Volume 2 of Fate/Prototype: Fragments, in Act 6. It's not the only time Caster calls her Potnia Theron, he does so 4 or 5 times IIRC.

Theoretical_Toxic19 · Jul 20, 2024

Deagonx said:
It's not the only time Caster calls her Potnia Theron, he does so 4 or 5 times IIRC.

I'm fine with her being called this, it's not really important to me

Deagonx said:
This is from Volume 2 of Fate/Prototype: Fragments, in Act 6.

Can you send me the link to where you got this, I read Fate/Prototype, this didn't exist, unless there was a portion of it mistranslated.

Deagonx · Jul 20, 2024

Theoretical said:
Can you send me the link to where you got this, I read Fate/Prototype, this didn't exist, unless there was a portion of it mistranslated.

Here for the translations.

As for the raws, I purchased them from Rakuten so I don't have a link to that.

Theoretical_Toxic19 · Jul 20, 2024

Deagonx said:
As for the raws, I purchased them from Rakuten so I don't have a link to that.

Hmmm, anyways lemme try to understand your point, are you saying Potnia Theron is something on Par with the Swirl of the root? The Swirl of the root, or is the goddess the Swirl of the root and Potnia Theron is power from the Swirl of the root? If it's neither then what do you think Potnia Theron is?

My next question is, since we're talking about the connection manaka has to the Swirl of the root and coincidentally the goddess Aswell, are you implying having a connection to it, in a similar manner as Ryougi and Manaka, implies that you're actually connected to the mother goddess and not some Monad?

My last question would be are you saying the digitized nothingness is the goddess herself or Potnia Theron?

Deagonx · Jul 20, 2024

My point is far simpler than that. The term "Potnia Theron" is the name of the Primordial Goddess of Catalhoyuk's divine authority. This primordial goddess was described in CCC as the mother of the various earth goddesses like Ishtar, Astarte, Tiamat, Gaia, etc. She was described as the "root" from which all things came into being. One result of this is the ability to "crush" the old world by rewriting it with the new, Shiki describes this beat-for-beat the same way.

The point of controversy was the argument that the term "root" here despite the quotations is referring to something other than the Capital R "Root" and it's instead just using the word "origin/source/root" in a generic sense with an emphasis that isn't meant to signify that it means the Root.

The introduction of this evidence about Manaka is meant to rebut that. Even if you can buy the idea that it was purely coincidence that the primordial goddess was called the "root" that created everything and has some similar abilities to void Shiki, we now have the additional point that Caster dubbed Manaka "queen of the Root" and "a woman who took the form of the Root" (unambiguously referring to the Capital R "Root" in this case) and that the ruby text for the former was "Potnia Theron" (a term which is inherently related to Catalhoyuk even in real life). This additonal fact makes the idea that the description of Catalhoyuk as "the Root" is something generic other than the actual Root itself entirely untenable.

Grand_Saver_Ritsuka · Jul 20, 2024

can any other staff please grant permission?

Grand_Saver_Ritsuka said:
Ultima, A friend of mine in this site aka HyperZero would like to comment here (He is very knowledgable in TM). Can you grant permission?

Agnaa · Jul 20, 2024

I don't grant permission for posts I haven't seen; I want to make sure that they're contributing something new and meaningful.

Grand_Saver_Ritsuka · Jul 20, 2024

Agnaa said:
I don't grant permission for posts I haven't seen; I want to make sure that they're contributing something new and meaningful.

HyperZero95

vsbattles.com

i assure you they are very knowledgable on the verse

Theoretical_Toxic19 · Jul 20, 2024

Deagonx said:
The term "Potnia Theron" is the name of the Primordial Goddess of Catalhoyuk's divine authority.

This only answered one of my questions, does anything connected to the root, immediately mean it is connected connected to the authority and let's assume the goddess is the swirl of the root does she uses this authority to give birth to all things? I mean that's what the source material say, I wanna see if we both agree on that. Then that would mean the capacity for the root to create all things is identical to the potency of the authority itself correct?

Is the nothingness that got digitized the goddess or the authority, do you take it that the goddess and by proxy the Swirl of the root is the imaginary number of space then? Before the land there was chaos, the INS is described as being akin to chaos, the nothingness that got digitized is INS, so that means the Swirl of the root is the imaginary number of space as well correct?

Void Shiki is connected to the Swirl of the root, assuming the Swirl of the root is the goddess then that means she also has the same authority as the mother goddess? Now do you disagree with Gaia giving birth to all things as well or no? Void Shiki is connected to the Swirl of the root, assuming the Swirl of the root is the goddess then that means she also has the same authority as the mother goddess? Now do you disagree with Gaia giving birth to all things as well or no?

Deagonx said:
This primordial goddess was described in CCC as the mother of the various earth goddesses like Ishtar, Astarte, Tiamat, Gaia, etc. She was described as the "root" from which all things came into being. One result of this is the ability to "crush" the old world by rewriting it with the new, Shiki describes this beat-for-beat the same way.

The point of controversy was the argument that the term "root" here despite the quotations is referring to something other than the Capital R "Root" and it's instead just using the word "origin/source/root" in a generic sense with an emphasis that isn't meant to signify that it means the Root.

The introduction of this evidence about Manaka is meant to rebut that. Even if you can buy the idea that it was purely coincidence that the primordial goddess was called the "root" that created everything and has some similar abilities to void Shiki, we now have the additional point that Caster dubbed Manaka "queen of the Root" and "a woman who took the form of the Root" (unambiguously referring to the Capital R "Root" in this case) and that the ruby text for the former was "Potnia Theron" (a term which is inherently related to Catalhoyuk even in real life). This additonal fact makes the idea that the description of Catalhoyuk as "the Root" is something generic other than the actual Root itself entirely untenable.

Now tell me how is it that, humanity gives birth to God's through worship, of which the mother goddess is a god but the mother goddess gives births to humans, since this is the consequence of your interpretation, I'm curious to see how do you reconcile with that, humans win over the heavens as humans give God's "being", but a god creates humans who give birth to the God? Or the God is birthed by humans who are birthed by the God? Because we are talking about Mother Goddess who wields Authority and is thus indistinguishable from Divine Spirits and other Gods

Since Void Shiki is connected to the root, assuming it's the mother goddess, why isn't she associated with the mother goddess authority? Why is the embodiment of the Swirl of the root that being manaka as you say, disappear when she reaches the Swirl of the root?

Hiroki: “As a pioneer who had once reached the spiral, if Manaka were to reach the Root she would
disappear. Even if there was a 2nd Holy Grail War, I simply don’t have enough power. So is there
something that I can do to keep my daughter safe with my own two hands after all?”
Was it due to his family lineage?
Or out of love?
Saber didn’t ask, about what he was saying or who he was referring to.

Assuming the mother goddess is the digitized nothingness, said to be INS, why it that when one reaches the Swirl of the root, they disappear with no exception including Manaka, but Gilgamesh existed in the INS just fine, which presumably INS is the swirl of the root?

How would you also reconcile with the potency of something that creates all things being limited only to Earth? If all things are all things, then all things include any-thing that is also not of earth, correct?

◆

Those born on this earth cannot defy the authority of the mother goddess, as that would mean rebelling against the very system of life. However, when they leave this earth, head to space, and end the childhoood as intelligent lifeforms, they will have broken this authority.

The wish of Çatalhöyük is the coming of that day.

Why is it that the potency of this thing in question which gives birth to all things affected by human knowledge, but what it gives birth to it (presumably it creates true magic as well that is) is outside of human knowledge? Is true magic outside of the thing that creates it? You also still have yet to justify the mother goddess exceeding Amaterasu, that was a claim you made.

Touko-san seemed to smile slightly at Shiki's harsh pursuit. "There is a purpose. But you're right. The magician is looking for Zero. Aiming for something that doesn't exist from the beginning. The final goal of the magicians is the ``source vortex.'' It's about reaching. It is also called the Akashic record, and one end of the vortex has such a function.

Why is it that the akashic records, records all phenomena; everything and anything, becomes recorded by what it records as you claim the Mooncell records the Swirl of the root which has the akashic record as a part of it?

While you're at it, help me make sense of Arcueid applying necessary conditions which the Mooncell should follow as well

Her master is Monji Gatou.
She is a Funny Vamp [localized as Temptress] with disheveled blond hair and crimson eyes.
She is a fan service character.
Technically not a Servant, she is a mysterious creature that Gatou brought along from Earth. Sometimes a cat, sometimes Yuzu-nee, sometimes a silicon creature, Berserker is a princess that doesn’t seem to have a proper place in the game. She is waiting eagerly for the release of the remake.
Incidentally, in the world of EXTRA where the information world (digital) takes precedence over the physical world, she is no longer the strongest.
This is because in the information world legend becomes reality, and natural phenomena that have been incarnated as “Gods” can often hold more power than their original natural existence does.
Well even with that being said, if Berserker regained her sanity she would easily be considered a cheat-tier Servant. Her power, “The stage is the Moon, so all targets have their power reduced to a sixth of their usual” would be extremely useful against other similar cheat-tier Servants.
It’s a conceptual numerical alteration, so it is unavoidable when on the Moon. Even the Moon Cell transformed version of BB would be limited by it.
As far as EXTRA and CCC go, she‘s about the only one who can bring Golden White Face [Konjiki Hakumen] down to a level where “it’s possible to defeat her no matter how slim the possibility.”

But the Mooncell records, something that records everything, but the person who applies the necessary conditions to it, gets killed by a power that views the glimpse of the Swirl of the root to kill all things, to put it in the words that align with your interpretation.

How is it that the Mooncell records something that records all things including the Mooncell, and is simultaneously recorded by the Mooncell, but the Mooncell which records something that records all things is a part of someone (Arcueid) who can apply necessary laws that it has to follow, the same person gets killed by something recorded by the Mooncell, which records all things including a force that records all things? Is the record that can kill the Mooncell a record of the Mooncell?

While you're at it, can you explain to me how something that records all things, including the event of the Mooncell being created can be recorded by the Mooncell, these records create a predetermined fate for all things (Which is what the Mystic Eyes Observe), in other words, explain to me how the Mooncell records the mother goddess aka the Swirl of the root, which records the future of the Mooncell recording itself? Iff the Mooncell records that which records everything, does it record the creation of itself? The beginning of the creation of itself? Insofar as it records the records of the records that it records? I'm going to need you to walk me through this yourself.

Since it records, something that records all things, does it record the record of it getting wounded by Velber? Who proceeds to take accumulated records of it? recording a record of having its records taken away from its records? does it also record the record of it being threatened by Sefar?

Back to the mother goddess by herself independent of the Mooncell, if the authority itself creates all things, does it create the law of it breaking? specifically when humans leave earth? If it establishes all laws, how does it establish the law of its law breaking when humans achieve a condition x?

◆

Those born on this earth cannot defy the authority of the mother goddess, as that would mean rebelling against the very system of life. However, when they leave this earth, head to space, and end the childhoood as intelligent lifeforms, they will have broken this authority.

The wish of Çatalhöyük is the coming of that day.

So far from what I'm getting from this is the Swirl of the root is:

Something that records itself being recorded by something and recording itself being recorded by something recorded by it
It creates everything, including laws that establish laws that break the laws that it created by creating the laws that break it
It creates humans who believe it to establish its existence, so it's created by the humans who create it by believing in it and it creates humans after that
Void Shiki is considered it, but has never been shown to have the primary authority of it
It creates something that records something that records all things simultaneously
It is beyond the reaches of someone (Arcueid) who can apply necessary conditions to something that records and is beyond it, so it is beyond something that is beyond it, thus it is beyond and below
When you reach it, you disappear, including someone who's considered the embodiment of it, this is the fun part it, a person who's not the embodiment of it aka Gilgamesh can exist inside of it (as it is INS) without disappearing
Everything is predetermined within it, including events of it being recorded by something that also records all things including the Swirl of the root itself
The Swirl of the root is dependent on belief itself, but its immediate emanation is independent of belief itself, aka true magic, true magic is dependent on something dependent on human belief but isn't dependent on human belief itself, x>y>z<x>y<z.
It records people who are considered to encompass the Mooncell (Arcueid), but that which is encompassed by it, is killed by a record of a record of itself.

Unless of course I'm misrepresenting the entailments of what you're saying, there are more questions that I wish to ask about this Deagonx, I hope I'm not being a bother to you, there are alot actually quite alot.

Deagonx · Jul 21, 2024

Theoretical said:
This only answered one of my questions, does anything connected to the root, immediately mean it is connected connected to the authority and let's assume the goddess is the swirl of the root does she uses this authority to give birth to all things? I mean that's what the source material say, I wanna see if we both agree on that. Then that would mean the capacity for the root to create all things is identical to the potency of the authority itself correct?

Is the nothingness that got digitized the goddess or the authority, do you take it that the goddess and by proxy the Swirl of the root is the imaginary number of space then? Before the land there was chaos, the INS is described as being akin to chaos, the nothingness that got digitized is INS, so that means the Swirl of the root is the imaginary number of space as well correct?

Void Shiki is connected to the Swirl of the root, assuming the Swirl of the root is the goddess then that means she also has the same authority as the mother goddess? Now do you disagree with Gaia giving birth to all things as well or no? Void Shiki is connected to the Swirl of the root, assuming the Swirl of the root is the goddess then that means she also has the same authority as the mother goddess? Now do you disagree with Gaia giving birth to all things as well or no?

1) No I'm not saying the Swirl is INS, I have denied holding that position earlier in this thread. As for the authority question, I don't know, the source material doesn't specify. As to Gaia, this is the sequence you're referring to:

Peperoncino	In the Greek mythology I know, she was the mother of the Earth, the gods, and everything else under the sun. She was also married to Uranus, the first god of the heavens.
Demeter	First, there was Chaos. Then Gaia, the land, came forth and gave birth to everything.

In context they're just reflecting mythology. Gaia's powers come from Catalhoyuk.

Theoretical said:
Now tell me how is it that, humanity gives birth to God's through worship, of which the mother goddess is a god but the mother goddess gives births to humans, since this is the consequence of your interpretation, I'm curious to see how do you reconcile with that, humans win over the heavens as humans give God's "being", but a god creates humans who give birth to the God? Or the God is birthed by humans who are birthed by the God? Because we are talking about Mother Goddess who wields Authority and is thus indistinguishable from Divine Spirits and other Gods

Since Void Shiki is connected to the root, assuming it's the mother goddess, why isn't she associated with the mother goddess authority? Why is the embodiment of the Swirl of the root that being manaka as you say, disappear when she reaches the Swirl of the root?

Presumably the "gods sustained by belief" thing does not hold true for the Root itself. Or perhaps it does, I can't really say, as the source material doesn't specify. As for Shiki, she isn't a Divine Spirit so she wouldn't have an "authority."

Theoretical said:
How would you also reconcile with the potency of something that creates all things being limited only to Earth? If all things are all things, then all things include any-thing that is also not of earth, correct?

That pertains to the authority of the derivative Earth Mother Goddesses. Some of them predate Earth and the entire universe, so it's not literally limited to Earth.

Theoretical said:
Why is it that the potency of this thing in question which gives birth to all things affected by human knowledge, but what it gives birth to it (presumably it creates true magic as well that is) is outside of human knowledge? Is true magic outside of the thing that creates it? You also still have yet to justify the mother goddess exceeding Amaterasu, that was a claim you made.

Touko-san seemed to smile slightly at Shiki's harsh pursuit. "There is a purpose. But you're right. The magician is looking for Zero. Aiming for something that doesn't exist from the beginning. The final goal of the magicians is the ``source vortex.'' It's about reaching. It is also called the Akashic record, and one end of the vortex has such a function.

Why is it that the akashic records, records all phenomena; everything and anything, becomes recorded by what it records as you claim the Mooncell records the Swirl of the root which has the akashic record as a part of it?

This is the same as the above, the description of the derivative Earth Mother Goddesses aren't descriptions of Catalhoyuk. Not sure the point of the Moon Cell question, I don't see the contradiction there.

Theoretical said:
But the Mooncell records, something that records everything, but the person who applies the necessary conditions to it, gets killed by a power that views the glimpse of the Swirl of the root to kill all things, to put it in the words that align with your interpretation.

How is it that the Mooncell records something that records all things including the Mooncell, and is simultaneously recorded by the Mooncell, but the Mooncell which records something that records all things is a part of someone (Arcueid) who can apply necessary laws that it has to follow, the same person gets killed by something recorded by the Mooncell, which records all things including a force that records all things? Is the record that can kill the Mooncell a record of the Mooncell?

While you're at it, can you explain to me how something that records all things, including the event of the Mooncell being created can be recorded by the Mooncell, these records create a predetermined fate for all things (Which is what the Mystic Eyes Observe), in other words, explain to me how the Mooncell records the mother goddess aka the Swirl of the root, which records the future of the Mooncell recording itself? Iff the Mooncell records that which records everything, does it record the creation of itself? The beginning of the creation of itself? Insofar as it records the records of the records that it records? I'm going to need you to walk me through this yourself.

Since it records, something that records all things, does it record the record of it getting wounded by Velber? Who proceeds to take accumulated records of it? recording a record of having its records taken away from its records? does it also record the record of it being threatened by Sefar?

Back to the mother goddess by herself independent of the Mooncell, if the authority itself creates all things, does it create the law of it breaking? specifically when humans leave earth? If it establishes all laws, how does it establish the law of its law breaking when humans achieve a condition x?

The Moon Cell isn't part of Arcueid. Not sure the point of the Velber/Sefar questions, the source material doesn't specify.

At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

?????????

Nihilus

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?????????

University Enthusiast

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?????????

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