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At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

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It's her and the 3rd personality, which says "it is where everything is provided, hence there's nothing" in the movie version, while the raw says "it is where everything is prepared and where there's nothing", prior to that she says because it's nothing, it can't have an attribute like intellect nor can it have significance.

Yes Rin Tohsaka iirc, has never reached the Swirl of the root, I'd say Aoko statements are even better than hers because she's from a lineage that has experienced traveling in the pathway itself, that's excluding her speaking of how uncertain it is to even say "God's exist there" whilst simultaneously saying to "touch it and understand remakes the word impossible", which are just counter intuitive claims on her part.

Her saying you return to nothingness at the very least is backed up by several preexisting statements of a person who experienced it herself.
Yeah, alright. You've mentioned before that there actually are scans saying that the world is illusory and in actually just nothingness, too, yes? Can you show those here (And the surrounding context, too)? I know you said you can't be assed to get them, but you can take your time, ofc. Not like anyone is in a rush.
 
You've mentioned before that there actually are scans saying that the world is illusory and in actually just nothingness, too, yes? Can you show those here (And the surrounding context, too)? I know you said you can't be assed to get them, but you can take your time, ofc. Not like anyone is in a rush.
Essentially Kiara is a Buddhist that followed teachings from the branch of Shingon Tachikawa, she explains how all creation is an illusion and all things are fundamentally nothingness, the part where she says as long as the virtual world (the mooncell) remains there will be hope, is her reference to how there's still a chance for all to reach the truth of nirvana by overcoming Maya, a principle whereby the "attributeless Absolute" appears to have "attributes" and attaining enlightenment means you overcome this illusion.

I can't say if the method they use to attain enlightenment is a valid way to do it, its about unifying male and female, the two as one, which breaks down the boundaries of oneself and allows one to draw power from the "other side" becoming one with the universe itself and attaining enlightenment, maybe if the arguments and pieces of evidence were structured better and more concisely, the thread would've been shorter but this somewhat relates to the scans posted beforehand.

The first portion of all of creation being illusionary has some viability to it, as the eyes of direct death called Amala-Vijnana or pure consciousness, end all things and judging by Ryougi's voice lines, it ends the "dream" or "illusion itself" and one vanishing between the interval of yin and yang, which is taiji, unity or one.
The end of a dream, huh?"
"Direct Death... Vanish in the interval between Yin and Yang.

夢の終わりね。"
"直死……両儀の狭間に消えなさい。

Dawn is approaching."
"All is a dream... this is the flower of the end.

空が明けるわ。"
"すべては夢と……これが、名残の花よ。
セイバー
And another voice line says all is a dream and this is the flower of the end as well, originally in Kara no Kyoukai when the 3rd personality of Ryougi talks about her connection and what she can do with it.

She talks about whatever feat she can accomplish would be no different from "dreaming" and says "I dream of not seeing anything, not thinking anything, not even dreaming" which is kinda indicative of enlightenment.

The mystic eyes themselves are said to be released from nirvana to bestow peace to all existence.
Amala-Vijnana・Kara no Kyoukai**
Rank:
Type: Anti-Unit
Range: 1~999
Maximum Targets: 64*** people
An all-party attack that applies the theory of the mystic eyes of direct death, severing the targets' "lines of death".
The sword stroke of the afterlife released from nirvana bestows peace to all existences.
According to the Dharma, vacuum is the state of freedom.
There is no duality of opposites,
The mind that sees the reason of the world and the way the world is as it is.

The sky is far away and the colors are pale.
Your shadow stands on the boundary of nowhere,
and watches the stars.

  The sky is far away, and the colors are pale.

The love is a temporary dream.
That dream is an eternal remnant.
The meeting that could never be, but was lit for a short time,
I am still looking at it.

Like looking at a faraway empty sky on a snowy night.
法に曰く、真空とは自在の境地。
二元対立の分別はなく、
世の理、世の在り方をありのままに観ずる心。

空は遠く、色彩は淡く。
貴影は何処ともつかぬ境界に立ち、
星の行方を眺めている。

  ◆

その恋は一時の夢。
その夢は永遠の名残。
有り得る筈のない、けれど束の間に灯った出会いを、
私は今も眺めている。

雪の夜、遙かな虚空を見るように。

NA Localization: As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom.
Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplates the world both as it should be and as it is.

The sky is distant, the colors pale.
A noble figure stands on an uncertain boundary, gazing at the whereabouts of the stars.
Which would in a sense correspond to this in the grand scheme of things, because teachings of dharma by extensions teach about enlightenment and reaching nirvana in Buddhism.

Which all goes back to how when humans reach it, they return back to this nothingness, they essentially become complete and the meaning of life vanishes.

I'll find and post the raws of the Extra CCC statements about the Maya and Nirvana later today or tomorrow

the throne of the heroes is outside of the world, the pathway in itself is outside of the world, heck the outer universe is outside of the world, the reverse side of the world is outside of the world, so is the Swirl of the root.
"the other side" is a loose term for this
 
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The mystic eyes themselves are said to be released from nirvana to bestow peace to all existence.
Yeah, I looked into the raws of that. "彼岸より放たれる". Literally "Released from the other side," where 彼岸 can mean both "Other side" and "Nirvana." Seems to be an intentional play on words.

I'll wait on the raws for the CCC stuff before passing concrete judgement, but I think this stuff, combined with True Emptiness being "the world as it is," is probably clear enough indication that the Root is primarily a state, if anything. More specifically it seems to be a "Nothingness after death" not in the sense of being some void, but in the sense of being the total absence of thought and cognition.

Seems to confirm my suspicion that Shiki's brush with the Root was basically just a state where she cognized absolutely nothing except her own selfhood. Hence she saw and "felt" the Root, because the Root just is that absence of things.
 
Yeah, I looked into the raws of that. "彼岸より放たれる". Literally "Released from the other side," where 彼岸 can mean both "Other side" and "Nirvana." Seems to be an intentional play on words.

I'll wait on the raws for the CCC stuff before passing concrete judgement, but I think this stuff, combined with True Emptiness being "the world as it is," is probably clear enough indication that the Root is primarily a state, if anything. More specifically it seems to be a "Nothingness after death" not in the sense of being some void, but in the sense of being the total absence of thought and cognition.

Seems to confirm my suspicion that Shiki's brush with the Root was basically just a state where she cognized absolutely nothing except her own selfhood. Hence she saw and "felt" the Root, because the Root just is that absence of things.
Although, question: Earlier on, you posted a scan that mentioned how Shiki's third personality was born as something with no intellect or significance, because she just sprung directly from the [ ] and into a womb. In fact, she identifies herself with the very [ ] in that scene, and says that she was "awakened" into consciousness. Not endowed with a ready-made personality, as she notes, but truly awakened to the outside world. What's up with that? Did the Root gain a will, or somesuch? I can't be bothered to get the scan right now, but you know which one I mean.

You've made a pretty strong case for immutability and lack of transiency being something explicit in the series itself, so I'm interested in how this cashes out with the above. Sounds like it could be pretty damning.
 
I'll wait on the raws for the CCC stuff before passing concrete judgement
I found them, my friend nel made my job easier, it still says the same thing and talks about all things being fundamentally nothing and everything being confined by Maya which can be escaped through reaching the nirvana through earthly desires which is rooted in Mahayana Buddhism iirc.

Additionally Kiara explains how one cannot realize "the truth" because of desire, which is similar to how the explanation they give for humans unconsciously denying the capacity to be complete by returning to nothingness, because they wish to live and this manifest as a facet of the counter force through the collective unconscious, to prevent people from reaching the path.
What's up with that? Did the Root gain a will, or somesuch? I can't be bothered to get the scan right now, but you know which one I mean.
—The flesh, we may say, becomes the basis of the intellect. It does not itself "have" an intellect. The flesh simply "is." But the flesh does have a personality, a will, of a kind. It grows up as one with, and gives birth to, the intellect. That - is what I am.

Ah, he said. He'd heard it somewhere before, hadn't he. That the human being is composed of three different things. Mind and soul, to which is added the fleshly body. Supposing, then, that the mind resides in the brain, and the soul in the body. That makes her - what? Shiki's essence. Her true character. A personality, "the body", with nothing of Shiki's heart.

Gently, she nodded her head. Ryougi Shiki did.

—Basically, that's how it is.

—"I" am not a personality borne of the intellect. I am the personality of the flesh as such.

—Ultimately, Shiki - he and she could exchange with one another because they held my currency in common. A single foundation governed them both. That is "Ryougi Shiki." You know Ryougi is liangyi, so it stands to reason that two liangyi together make a taiji, doesn't it? That is me. I am that which takes the shape of the taiji, its circular outline.

—They were my creations. Each of them an "I" of the same order as myself. Or, no; since they each possessed a will, an inclination of their own, you could say they were of a higher order than myself. Even if they were different personalities, their lines of thought were one in that they were both essentially the good and evil within "Ryougi Shiki." They originated from me, and concluded with me. Had they not, their differing inclinations should never have been able to coexist.

She giggled. The gaze that now fell across him was more than ever cold and fatal.

—I don't fully understand, he said. You're saying that you are the original pattern, the original model of which Shiki and SHIKI are both derivatives.

—Correct. I am the essence of Ryougi Shiki. The essence which does not appear. Since the fleshly body is indeed unable to "think," and since that is all I am, under normal circumstances I would simply have rotted away in that thoughtless state without ever rising to the surface. Essentially I am just " ". And that which is " " can have neither intellect nor significance. Normally.
She waffles for a while, but explains that she gained a personality as a result of the brain and flesh itself, rather than having a personality being born directly from intellect itself, the way she gained intellect is seemingly individuated from how the male and female personality got intellect, she says they both intrinsically possessed a will and inclination of their own and in that sense they are of a higher order than her.
 
She waffles for a while, but explains that she gained a personality as a result of the brain and flesh itself, rather than having a personality being born directly from intellect itself, the way she gained intellect is seemingly individuated from how the male and female personality got intellect, she says they both intrinsically possessed a will and inclination of their own and in that sense they are of a higher order than her.
The insinuation that she's basically a philosophical zombie is pretty hilarious, but yeah, seems to check out. I'll go over all of the stuff when I get home later.
 
It is stated, with reference to the Root, that "the other side contains large quantities of unused mana." But this seems to be from a character who has no experience whatsoever with the Root, vs. the testimony of someone who's actually gazed into it. Is that correct?
No personal experience, but she is designed to be a living vessel for the Holy Grail and is a member of a family dedicated to reaching it, so we can presume that she is reflecting the knowledge of the mage societies at large.
That's why I mentioned how it can be very feasible that the "other side" having mana is in reference to the residual mana within the pathway itself not the Swirl of the root.
This theory is problematic on two counts. The first is that numerous scans assert that this ritual is for reaching the Root itself, the invention of some unmentioned pathway that contains a bunch of mana seems to circumvent the stated purpose of the Holy Grail War. Second, it is problematic that there is an intermediary zone "between" the normal world and the Root.
Essentially Kiara is a Buddhist that followed teachings from the branch of Shingon Tachikawa, she explains how all creation is an illusion and all things are fundamentally nothingness, the part where she says as long as the virtual world (the mooncell) remains there will be hope, is her reference to how there's still a chance for all to reach the truth of nirvana by overcoming Maya, a principle whereby the "attributeless Absolute" appears to have "attributes" and attaining enlightenment means you overcome this illusion.
I mean, if the nothingness is supposed to be the Root, then this is super weird:

Having obtained the power of the original goddess, BB successfully digitized the “nothingness” before life was born. This made her a master of imaginary number space, where time and space are both uncertain.

Then further, one of BB's abilities has this description:

sVWKW09.jpeg
 
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No personal experience, but she is designed to be a living vessel for the Holy Grail and is a member of a family dedicated to reaching it, so we can presume that she is reflecting the knowledge of the mage societies at large.
Still doesn't mean much if you want to accept it alongside Shiki's vision of the Root. Was all the mana just tucked away somewhere she couldn't see, for instance? (Sounds pretty stupid).

Then further, one of BB's abilities has this description:
oof
 
Then further, one of BB's abilities has this description:
Deagon, pls tell me you didn't know this was a blatant mistranslation. @Theoretical was actually talking about this on discord a few days or weeks ago. It never said "Swirl of The root." Whoever added that beside "the root" really is doing devil's work😂

This is the raws
uXRhMT4.jpeg


DeepL translation
The goddess, the mother of the earth who created the earth, is the "source" from which all things came into being. This treasure is an anti world noble phantasm that outputs this information as an ultra-precise three-dimensional printer and shuts down the world as it is now, in the world of the user's desire.
Since when was Akasha referred to as a goddess?😭
Nowhere does it mention "Swirl of The root" Just reading it, you will understand that the context has literally nothing to do with the omnipotent Swirl of the root.
An actual translator could check it out tho.
 
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Then further, one of BB's abilities has this description
I like how in the "raws" for this, it explicitly never mentions the Swirl of the root.
Deagon, pls tell me you didn't know this was a blatant mistranslation
Yeah, it's from marshadow. This authority comes from the Mooncell, Arcueid despite being weakened causes a stress to the computational capabilities of the Mooncell, it's weird how it grants Swirl of the root capabilities but can't handle the existence of someone who claiming the Swirl of the root is absolute.
I'll check the English translation from Iwakura and reply later.
Is this gonna make the raws have "Swirl of the root" or something? The raw is is there, I'm unsure as to what another person's translation is gonna do when the raw never mentions the Swirl of the root.
No personal experience, but she is designed to be a living vessel for the Holy Grail and is a member of a family dedicated to reaching it, so we can presume that she is reflecting the knowledge of the mage societies at large.
Ultima's question was "experience with the root" Insofar as gazing into the root, not the pathway to the root.
The first is that numerous scans assert that this ritual is for reaching the Root itself
They don't teleport to the Swirl of the root, they travel in the pathway, the pathway is in the other side, now assuming the experience of another person with the Swirl of the root, inside the Swirl of the root, it makes it less feasible that the other side is a reference to the Swirl of the root, if the person who it experiences lists attributes that don't share a relation with the attributes you're trying to infer to instantiate the Swirl of the root.
Second, it is problematic that there is an intermediary zone "between" the normal world and the Root.
From a purely philosophical standpoint, this causes no problems, there are intermediate emanations between the ultimate reality and the material reality in many theosophical and philosophical models, the ultimate reality doesn't just directly spawn the material world. If anything that's more nonsensical than just having places that are intermediate to the material world and the ultimate reality.

It makes sense that True Magic, which is treated as "gnosis" itself, can go through these intermediate 'zones'.
 
Mother Earth there probably refers to Tiamat... if I'm not mistaken BB absorbed Tiamat's authority from within Moncell...I haven't read CCC for a long time...
No, it's a mother goddess who predates Tiamat, Tiamat got her Authority from her.
It was compiled by BB from the depths of the moon cell, It is the authority of the goddess that she has taken in. Originated from a goddess whose name has already been lost (the goddess of Çatalhöyük) about 8,000 years ago.
I suppose the name of the Swirl of the root, could've simply been lost 8,000 years ago as well, this seems consistent enough.
 
Deagon, pls tell me you didn't know this was a blatant mistranslation. @Theoretical was actually talking about this on discord a few days or weeks ago. It never said "Swirl of The root." Whoever added that beside "the root" really is doing devil's work😂

This is the raws
uXRhMT4.jpeg


DeepL translation

Since when was Akasha referred to as a goddess?😭
Nowhere does it mention "Swirl of The root" Just reading it, you will understand that the context has literally nothing to do with the omnipotent Swirl of the root.
An actual translator could check it out tho.
Seriously? You guys have been using localized scans without taking the time to find the raws for us to archive them. How is it his fault if he also pulls out a localized scan that could have been mistranslated?

As I said before, we need to gather all the raw scans, archive them, and then assess each one individually.
 
Seriously? You guys have been using localized scans without taking the time to find the raws for us to archive them. How is it his fault if he also pulls out a localized scan that could have been mistranslated?

As I said before, we need to gather all the raw scans, archive them, and then assess each one individually.
Once again, finding random raw scans from Type Moon is borderline impossible. I wish you understood the pain it took to get some of these scans.
 
yes..but BB got it from tiamat..that's why I assume mother earth is referring to tiamat..

yeah, I don't mind it..I haven't read CCC for a long time and maybe my assumption is wrong..
It's fine, I'm unsure if BB got it from Tiamat tho.
This one (「根源」), I believe.
I think he means in general not just that Extra CCC scan, if so it's (根源の渦), it's typically vortex of origin or spiral of origin, lemme check in El Melloi Case files, because it has that too. Also Extra CCC was never localized, there are only English patches from fans iirc.
 
I've checked the Iwakura patch, and the screenshot is accurate to it. This is more like a translator's note where they're clarifying what is meant, they do it in a couple areas. It is doubtless that the phrase "the Root" in quotations refers to the Root. Especially if the phrase is "the Root" that gave rise to all of creation. It's no wonder they interpreted it that way and added that note.

Further, the description of the ability BB has a result of this is identical to what Shiki says she can do with her Root powers.

"An Anti-World Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3D printer that crushes the present world with the world desired by the users."
"So I can do anything. ... It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."

SrZYhXg.png


And indeed, BB was able to digitize/quantify the "nothingness." So, yeah, Fate/EXTRA CCC is saying pretty plainly that the Mother of the various Earth Goddesses (the Primordial Goddess) was the Root that gave rise to all creation and BB has this power (literally digitized it), as a result she can do the same things Shiki can do (crush the old world and superimpose a new world).

Pretty cut and dry, actually.
 
I've checked the Iwakura patch, and the screenshot is accurate to it.
Whose screenshot is accurate? The translation I used or the one you dropped?
This is more like a translator's note where they're clarifying what is meant, they do it in a couple areas. It is doubtless that the phrase "the Root" in quotations refers to the Root. Especially if the phrase is "the Root" that gave rise to all of creation. It's no wonder they interpreted it that way and added that note.
Did you even read the raw at all? The scan you showed had a bad translation. The raws doesn't have any mini notes and the statement literally refers to the "earth goddess" being the "source" or "root" or whatever. Please settle down to read the actual translation.
Further, the description of the ability BB has a result of this is identical to what Shiki says she can do with her Root powers.




SrZYhXg.png


And indeed, BB was able to digitize/quantify the "nothingness." So, yeah, Fate/EXTRA CCC is saying pretty plainly that the Mother of the various Earth Goddesses (the Primordial Goddess) was the Root that gave rise to all creation and BB has this power (literally digitized it), as a result she can do the same things Shiki can do (crush the old world and superimpose a new world).

Pretty cut and dry, actually.
I genuinely cannot fathom how in the world you somehow saw Shiki's abilities and statement and said yup it's similar to BB's who has absolutely nothing in common to Shiki ability-wise. But I'm not like theoretical. I can't be arsed to explain the same thing to you gazillion times so imma just leave it for Ultima to read the correct tl and decide the context.
You and I are aware of the difficulty, yes. So lay off the attitude when someone else presents a localized scan but doesn't have the raw to know if it's a mistranslation or not.
Pretty sure that scan is popularly know to be a mistranslated scan just based off the supposed context of the scene. Isn't it funny how all of the scans I and the rest of supporters used have been mainly more accurate than most of Deagon's scans. It's almost as if he's specifically cherrypicking the ones with faulty translations. But imma lay off a bit before I get blamed for saying too much.
 
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Did you even read the raw at all? The scan you showed had a bad translation. The raws doesn't have any mini notes and the statement literally refers to the "earth goddess" being the "source" or "root" or whatever. Please settle down to read the actual translation.
That's what Deagon was saying. That it was a translator's note; something outside of the original text, but using the translator's knowledge of it to provide additional context.

If you think it's a dumb note, fair enough, but "the raws didn't say that" isn't a counter-argument.
 
That's what Deagon was saying. That it was a translator's note; something outside of the original text, but using the translator's knowledge of it to provide additional context.

If you think it's a dumb note, fair enough, but "the raws didn't say that" isn't a counter-argument.
Alright. Then it's a dumb note then. The scan clearly wasn't referring to the Swirl of the Root.

This would be my last time explaining it. The staff can evaluate what they truly think the scan meant (using the right translation). I'm 7-pages too tired and I didn't even contribute much like @Theoretical in the first place
 
The idea that they'd put the phrase "the root" in brackets, In a context referring to the thing that "gave rise to all creation" and be referring to something other than the Root is not plausible. The translators have no ulterior motives here, they added the note because that's obviously what was meant.

I genuinely cannot fathom how in the world you somehow saw Shiki's abilities and statement and said yup it's similar to BB's who has absolutely nothing in common to Shiki ability-wise
It was probably the part where both of them are said to superimpose a new world with which they "crush" the old world using their abilities.
 
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The idea that they'd put the phrase "the root" in brackets, In a context referring to the thing that "gave rise to all creation" and be referring to something other than the Root is not plausible. The translators have no ulterior motives here, they added the note because that's obviously what was meant.
You keep dismissing the context of "earth goddess" alright. The root has never been referred to as an "earth goddess" cmon now.
It was probably the part where both of them are said to superimpose a new world with which they "crush" the old world using their abilities.
One is talking about all of creation (all of Nasuverse), the other is only referring to things within the mooncell. How is this comparable?😑
 
You keep dismissing the context of "earth goddess" alright. The root has never been referred to as an "earth goddess" cmon now.
This is about the primordial mother of the Earth goddesses. Also, regardless of whether it's been referred to that way before, that's what the scan is saying unambiguously.

One is talking about all of creation (all of Nasuverse), the other is only referring to things within the mooncell. How is this comparable?
First, nothing says it's referring to the Moon Cell and that wouldn't make any sense regardless. Second, it literally says BB digitized the "nothingness" before life. Third, the Moon Cell is a direct digital copy of everything outside if it. It's literally a computer version of the Akashic Records, and this just confirms that further.
 
This is about the primordial mother of the Earth goddesses. Also, regardless of whether it's been referred to that way before, that's what the scan is saying unambiguously.
So you can't explain how the Swirl of the root has anything to do with the "primordial earth goddess" who by the way, is a character that is already mentioned and definitely not Swirl of the Root.
First, nothing says it's referring to the Moon Cell and that wouldn't make any sense regardless. Second, it literally says BB digitized the "nothingness" before life. Third, the Moon Cell is a direct digital copy of everything outside if it. It's literally a computer version of the Akashic Records, and this just confirms that fufurther.
This is gotten from CCC. Everything happened in the 8D mooncell. Secondly, claiming the mooncell ia a digital copy of everything outside and comparing it Akasha is just painfully hilarious. I honestly don't know if you're trolling or not. 8D mooncell=Akasha is just something else🤦‍♂️
 
So you can't explain how the Swirl of the root has anything to do with the "primordial earth goddess" who by the way, is a character that is already mentioned and definitely not Swirl of the Root.
And yet, here is the source material directly saying otherwise and all you have mustered as a rebuttal is "no."

This is gotten from CCC. Everything happened in the 8D mooncell. Secondly, claiming the mooncell ia a digital copy of everything outside and comparing it Akasha is just painfully hilarious. I honestly don't know if you're trolling or not. 8D mooncell=Akasha is just something else🤦‍♂️
I'm aware of where it's from. If you have nothing to provide in terms of an actual rebuttal then simply stop commenting. It doesn't make any sense for "all of creation" to refer to the Moon Cell when there's several statements in CCC acknowledging the fact that the Moon Cell is a copy of the outside world.

The statements are clear. Your incredulity is not a factor here. All you have done is clutter of the thread with childish taunts.
 

Arcueid is not the swirl of the root, Void Shiki is.
 

Arcueid is not the swirl of the root, Void Shiki is.
The aforementioned primordial goddess isn't Arcueid. Arcueid isn't even among the Earth Mother Goddesses that the primordial goddess is responsible for.
 
SrZYhXg.png


And indeed, BB was able to digitize/quantify the "nothingness." So, yeah, Fate/EXTRA CCC is saying pretty plainly that the Mother of the various Earth Goddesses (the Primordial Goddess) was the Root that gave rise to all creation and BB has this power (literally digitized it), as a result she can do the same things Shiki can do (crush the old world and superimpose a new world).

Pretty cut and dry, actually.

This is quite the strange stance, considering your previous statement:
The theory that what is actually being described is a hole to the Reverse Side of the World, which is the bottom layer of the planet ~2,700km below the surface is pretty ridiculous.

I am confused. Is it cut-and-dry, or is it pretty ridiculous?

The power BB wields is over Imaginary Number Space (localized as Void Space), which exists in the Reverse Side of the World, in a deeper layer of the planet.
Z3aoj62.png
sEsoCEF.png


In fact, it is possible for regular human Magi to have the affinity to create and access Imaginary Number Space. For example:
BdpSaWi.png
UPmiRjb.png

As explained in the novel:
Trisha's elemental affinity was for Imaginary Numbers, she remembered. Imaginary Numbers space, where "nothingness" existed as an actual thing, was something like a dimensional pocket, a place where objects would be freed from interaction with the flow of space and time.
The only thing that could interact with this dimensional pocket was the original spell.
Primarily that meant only someone with the same affinity for Imaginary Numbers could access it, but in certain cases there were other methods. Or so she had heard from Trisha.

For clarification, is your position that this Magus accessed the Root?​





As for creation, even from a basic grammatical prespective:

The reason she is the 'root of all creation' is because she created the Earth Mothers who created earth. This is only coherent if 'creation' refers to whatever the Earth Mothers created.
This is reflected by the Potnia Theron skill having the name "Conception of All Animals", and "Womb of a Hundred Beasts".

In fact, this is spelled out in the Potnia Theron skill description:
Potnia Theron: Womb of All Animals: EX

Potnia Theron (Animal Mistress). It is the Authority of the goddesses whom BB compiled and absorbed from the abyss of the Moon Cell. It is the embodiment of the power to create all things that the Mother Goddesses possess, originating approximately 8000 years ago from a goddess who already lost her name (the Goddess of Çatalhöyük), and branching to Tiamat, Cybele, Ishtar, Inanna, Anat, Astarte, Gaia, Hera, Artemis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Athena, and so forth. Many of these goddesses have been pictured with an appearance that has a mural crown on them. That is because many of these goddesses were also simultaneously the Guardian Deities of cities.

Potnia Theron and the concept of mother goddesses has been explained in more detail twice, and it refers to the creation of land, primodial gods, and life forms:
Merlin
Soon you'll start hearing people claiming the Goddess of Demonic Beasts is the same as Tiamat.
Choices
  • The Eleven Offspring?
Ana
According to the Mesopotamian creation myth, they are the last children of Tiamat, the mother of all gods.
  • Tiamat...?
Mash
A goddess of creation in the world of Mesopotamia... It is said she's the mother who gave birth to all the gods.

Dr. Roman
Tiamat is one of the primordial gods of Mesopotamia. Or perhaps she should be considered a first-generation god.
In Mesopotamian mythology, the universe is called Anki. “An” means “heaven and god” and “Ki” means “earth and goddess.”
The goddess brings forth life, and the god rules it. That's how the relationship is.
Back when what was above was not called heaven and what was beneath was not called earth,
the god Abzu mated with the goddess Tiamat, and gave birth to many children, the gods.
But as the children grew, they desired power, and they rebelled against Tiamat to widen the world.

[...]

Merlin
Tiamat bit hard into Marduk, but he defeated her with a final strike from his bow.
Tiamat lay there, defeated, and the gods ripped her body apart, turning it into a land that floats on the sea.
That was the land of Mesopotamia, a world created from the body of the fallen deity.

Dr. Roman
Well, it's a pretty typical creation myth.
The body of the Earth Mother is used as soil to create the world. It is a theme seen in other mythologies too.
A goddess creates life. But when she turns to chaos, she becomes the enemy of humanity, the mother of Demonic Beasts.
It's an Authority called Potnia Theron, the “Womb of a Hundred Beasts.”
Anyone with this Authority possesses the seed of life
... They can make an infinite amount of monsters, provided they have the resources.
Based on the number of Demonic Beasts, the goddess to the north likely has this Authority.

Demeter
I'm the goddess of the land, and the land has always been mother to all things.

Peperoncino
Mother of the land, huh. That sounds like Gaia.

Peperoncino
In the Greek mythology I know, she was the mother of the Earth, the gods, and everything else under the sun. She was also married to Uranus, the first god of the heavens.

Demeter
First, there was Chaos. Then Gaia, the land, came forth and gave birth to everything.
The land has always been a mother. That's how it's supposed to be.
And the sea...
The sea was...also a mother. Or at least, it was supposed to be...

Chaos is a good example of multiple 'nothingness' void 'beings'/'spaces' in the Nasuverse by the way. Chaos is described below:
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Prometheus-Hephaestus
I'm sorry, I should have asked sooner: Does the concept of zero exist in Proper Human History?

Holmes
Yes, most assuredly. We've known about it since at least the third century.
I daresay we also have a fairly deep understanding of the concept. In fact, Ms. Miyamoto over there is something of an expert on it.

Musashi
...

Prometheus-Hephaestus
Oho, fascinating. A mathematician or philosopher would be one thing, but I never would have thought a swordfighter could reach such an understanding.
A scholar would no doubt use their understanding to pass the concept on to other people as knowledge, but for a swordfighter to understand zero...
I see. Then you must have attained it as a skill, rather than as knowledge.
Zero. The line that lies between positive and negative.
A number smaller than any decimal, and greater than any negative number.
It is the void — the lack of existence.
...I see. The fact that you reached such an understanding with the sword just goes to show you humans truly are an unsolvable mystery.

All this is still below the Root.
As explained by Nasu:

Q: Well since we are talking about her, I want to hear bout Miyamoto Musashi. During Fate/Stay Night, there was a phrase that "Whether a path to the future or path to the past, the place it reaches its Zero" type of phrase was said in it.
Does this mean Musashi's Empty Space/Kyu = Zero concept means something similar to the Root?

Nasu: No, not at all actually. When I was studying the person Miyamoto Musashi historically, I found out that tale of Musashi was happening around the same period as when the concept of "Mu" from Buddhism entered into Japan recently. And thinking about it, I thought it was impressive that Musashi's Father claimed to be a Muise? during that era. And as I saw myself deeper into that side of history,
I felt that in "FGO" , the place female Musashi must reach as her peak must be "Cutting that which has no form". And around that time, as I was doing Musashi's Trial Quest, I was also making plans for FGO Part 2, so I was studying info on Greece and the concept of Chaos.

And at that moment, I thought, well this is something Musashi has to cut, as Muramasa mentioned, "One you are able to cut that which has no form, you show your true essence". Many different creative material makes Miyamoto Musashi appear in it, but we thought that if we are to put in Musashi, that we have to put her inside the story with a meaning to her in the story. And I thought that Musashi would have meaning if she at the end cuts through the Empty Space/Kyou, and accomplishes all things and disappears beyond the zero. And she was character that was made with that in mind, and we put in a lot of small nods to this throughout the game.
So this isn't something that is related to the Root of All Magic or etc like that.

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I've checked the Iwakura patch, and the screenshot is accurate to it. This is more like a translator's note where they're clarifying what is meant, they do it in a couple areas. It is doubtless that the phrase "the Root" in quotations refers to the Root. Especially if the phrase is "the Root" that gave rise to all of creation. It's no wonder they interpreted it that way and added that note.

Further, the description of the ability BB has a result of this is identical to what Shiki says she can do with her Root powers.




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And indeed, BB was able to digitize/quantify the "nothingness." So, yeah, Fate/EXTRA CCC is saying pretty plainly that the Mother of the various Earth Goddesses (the Primordial Goddess) was the Root that gave rise to all creation and BB has this power (literally digitized it), as a result she can do the same things Shiki can do (crush the old world and superimpose a new world).

Pretty cut and dry, actually.
I want to point out that there are actually several "nothingnesses" throughout the Nasuverse (like Imaginary Number Space/Void Space, Musashi's Nothingness, Chaos, Ginnungagap, the Abyss (kind of), etcetera), none of which are associated with the Root (unless they are referencing the Root directly in a scan about "nothingness," it is not about the Root, and even then calling the Root "nothingness" has baggage that doesn't fully describe it). In this case, "nothingness" refers to Imaginary Number Space (which the English translation of Fate/Grand Order calls "Void Space") which BB has control over.
 
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The reason she is the 'root of all creation' is because she created the Earth Mothers who created earth. This is only coherent if 'creation' refers to whatever the Earth Mothers created.
This is reflected by the Potnia Theron skill having the name "Conception of All Animals", and "Womb of a Hundred Beasts".

In fact, this is spelled out in the Potnia Theron skill description:
Two things. First, the raws say she is "the root" that gave rise to all creation, not "the root of all creation."

Second, that question says "the power to create all things that the Earth goddesses possess." The earth goddesses possess the power, it's not saying the power specific refers to the things Earth Godesses created.

All this is still below the Root.
As explained by Nasu:
These are all from an entirely different game regarding an entirely different character and is focused on the word "nothingness" not the root. Moreover, the identical nature of what BB is able to do in terms of crushing the existing world with a new one is very dispositive here.

What are the manga scans from? I assume that's the manga version of the scene of Shiki in the Root from KnK?
 
Everyone, i would like to point out that the Earth Mother being "The Root" doesn't say The Root, just the origin/root of all creation, which in context, refers to all creation on Earth.
Those quotes around "root/origin" don't mean it's referring to THE ROOT, as other things have those quotes around them, like the Mythology Mystic Code
It says "the root" that gave rise to all creation. They use quotes elsewhere to signify specific terms being used, which means "the Root" is not just the root of something generically. There's only one thing it could be.
 
Since this is becoming a sticking point, I'd like to say, Nasu may write things differently, but in a lot of Japanese texts, 「these brackets」, while often translated as putting words in "quotation marks", are simply used for emphasis. A common machine/amateur TL mistake is to carry them all over like that, rather than bolding/italicising/capitalising the phrase in question.
 
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