At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

[Firestorm808]

Here's the oblivion records one, this is the one ultima was looking for.

To clarify, what is the source of the second link?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

this is the one ultima was looking for

Yeah, thanks.

Whilst True Emptiness is a radical state of freedom, where dual distinctions like "infinity and finitude" are dissolved into a unity that is "without end", this is why the mystic eyes can cut through everything, because limits exist in everything including infinity.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but given that True Emptiness in there is described as "the mind that contemplates the world as it is," wouldn't this mean that the Root is "the world as it is"?

To clarify, what is the source of the second link?

Kara No Kyoukai Paradox Spiral, I can probably find the raw scans for this.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but given that True Emptiness in there is described as "the mind that contemplates the world as it is," wouldn't this mean that the Root is "the world as it is"?

Yes, but I'd like to be careful with my words, my initial impression of the portion that refers to it as "the mind", was that a part of it (maybe the akashic records) was like some universal consciousness or divine mind, because it was described according to hermetic thought.

Lucky me, the raws describing it as "existence" and nothing more, refer to it as "absolute oneness"

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Got permission to comment from Ultima.

you can interact with it

Per Aoko:

1. No one survived contact with the Root. Not a single person in the entire world.
2. Contact with the Root = Instant Death.
3. Contact with the Root = Returning to the Root.
4. If any single person became God through contact with the Root, they became a dead person who got sucked into the Root after contact.

Do you disagree that any of these statements are factual?
If so, how many statements does your position require to discard?

The very quote being used to say part and whole are the same is the same person saying they were there, in it, for years.

Shiki Ryogi herself said that 'floating' she experienced was a nightmare she dreamt up, even while acknowledging that her eyes with supernatural abilities are more connected to the Root as a result.

"Are my eyes --- going to recover soon?" I don't want that. That kind of world, I never want to see it again. A world where nothing exists. While I was 「there」, I was content and at peace. --- I can't believe it now. Remembering that world after I woke up I thought about it and there couldn't be anything more pathetic than that world. That darkness, even if it was just a nightmare I dreamt up during my sleep --- I can't stand the thought of falling into that place again. And, these two eyes of mine that are connected to that place.

Shiki Ryogi's soul didn't leave her body and travel to the Root, before returning a couple of years later. Her very Origin is defined by "Emptiness" despite having multiple personalities, due to her Origin, being in a coma and looking inward caused her to gaze into the Root.

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death. —All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ". Yes, indeed. If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation. —That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." —But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.

Let's put the semantics of whether this 'counts as a real contact' on the side, and focus on the substance.
Your position basically have to argue that if someone had an abstract vision about being within X (ex. viewing darkness when darkness doesn't exist, sinking when the concept of form and falling are meaningless) then this disqualifies X from being a monad.

This is in the same section where it's said that people who go there become gods

Hold up. Why are you using a plural?

Aoko explicitly clarified that she isn't talking about a group of gods, but a single big underlying force. If someone became God, they become that single big underlying force.

As Aoko previously explained, no single person returned after contact with the Root. Any God mentioned, including a hypothetical God exiting the Root to their world, is distinct from these persons.

that the first person to do this mightve been lonely and wanted more people to come be gods alongside them

There are several hypotheses were proposed on how knowledge about the Root got out.

From Aoko:

1. Maybe someone who became God returned, because being God is probably totally different than what we imagine.
2. Maybe God can't return to our world to begin with, who knows (and therefore the knowledge was sent out without God leaving).

From Soujyuro (mountain boy who admits he is confused and isn't making any sense):

1. Maybe the first person to become God felt lonely and wanted others to join them.
2. Maybe God had so much work to do and needed help.

Aoko is non-commital in her propositions, which don't conflict with Tier 0.
Soujyuro's are clearly presented from the prespective of someone unreliable who doesn't know what he is talking about. If you'd like to make the case that Soujyuro makes sense and what he proposed has the highest level of consistency with the entire body of evidence regarding the nature of the Root, feel free to do so.

After all, it's a monad. We know based on the statements from the same person we are currently disregarding.

Aoko is distinct from Soujyuro, and is considered more knowledgable than him.

And yet this is in stark contradiction with the theory that the OP has come up with that touching the root causes you to be instantly subsumed into perfect undifferentiated root-ness. As was Shiki's experience there.

How does the statement relate to the lore information highlighted by OP regarding the Root in order to contradict it?
A spiteful small part of Souren will probably end remaining in the world and cause great destruction. And?

A process which, lest we forget, involves crossing the barrier between the universe and the root, which -- with a holy Grail-- gives you access to large amounts of unused mana that are inside the root.

The process, as described in Fate/Stay Night, is that the Greater Grail sends the souls of Servants back and keeps the hole created by their return open, and this hole allows a path toward the Root, and this path happens to have a large amount of Mana.
This would only be the first step in the far-off journey to the Root, and isn't enough to actually lead inside the Root.

Note that the same hole allows a path for the summoned Servants to return to the Throne of Heroes, and this in no way implies that the Throne of Heroes gets punctured.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

The greater grail doesn't really blow a hole through the root nor to the root directly iirc, it only creates a path way to reach the root and even then it's only regarded as the first step, because the pathway to it would still be far.

Tried to tell em

 

[Firestorm808]

What is the source for the following:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[RaveeCPN]

@Firestorm808

I couldn't find the Japanese one, but the English text is one of the translator's notes in Fate/Zero.

The second one is from Lord El-Melloi II-Sei No Jikenbo Chapter 18

Third and Fourth from Tsukihime Remake

 

[Deagonx]

Lucky me, the raws describing it as "existence" and nothing more, refer to it as "absolute oneness"

This would appear to be the same scan that the OP has translated as "the one" and which Tdjwo's blog has translated as "first." This "absolute oneness" is now the third translation of this term.

In any case, we should try to get a more definitive answer on what is actually being said there. Where did you find these raws?

 

[RaveeCPN]

Where did you find these raws?

You can find it here.

 

[Deagonx]

You can find it here.

Well this also gives a new distinct fourth translation. It says "there is a cause, an absolute one, that is the basis for all events." That would mean it's just being called an absolute cause, not "absolute oneness"

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Well this also gives a new distinct fourth translation. It says "there is a cause, an absolute one, that is the basis for all events." That would mean it's just being called an absolute cause, not "absolute oneness"

Considering that person is using Machine Translation, it's probably not the most reliable.

 

[RaveeCPN]

This would appear to be the same scan that the OP has translated as "the one" and which Tdjwo's blog has translated as "first." This "absolute oneness" is now the third translation of this term.

By the way, it's worth mentioning that "Absolute Oneness" (or "Absolute First", whatever way we're going to take it) is not in the same scan as "The One". It's mentioned in the scan right after Absolute Oneness. So we don't have a total of 4 different things, but js 3. And the main thing to focus on is how to handle "絶対の一がある", not "The One".

「この宇宙(せかい)にあるものは、その渦から流れ、派生して、今のカ タチに行き着いたわ。わたしも志貴も、吸血種も人間も、 はそこから始まった原子にすぎない。………………もう離れすぎ、複雑になりすぎてしまって、原因である 始まりに戻ることはできないけど、とにかくそういった“一” があるのは分かるでしょう?」

「すべての事象には大本になった原因、絶対の一がある。 この宇宙のはじまりにしておしまいの地点。そこには“全てを記録したモノ”がある。記録というよりは“有る”ものだから、情報とは呼べない。ただ“有る”だけ。 それ自体に意思はないし、方向性もありえない。原因を垂れ流 しているだけの、根源の渦みたいなものね」

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Well this also gives a new distinct fourth translation. It says "there is a cause, an absolute one, that is the basis for all events." That would mean it's just being called an absolute cause, not "absolute oneness"

There's no meaningful distinction between "absolute one" and "absolute oneness", "absolute one" oneness is just more clear as to what it means by "one", even then "absolute one" contextually would still be referring to the fact that it is absolute unity and absolute simplicity, considering right after that they explain how it's not reducible to anything but "existence".

An absolute first cause, isn't always simple, so no I'd disagree with it referring to just being an absolute cause (not like this miniscule response matters because cases for it being absolutely simple have been presented in the thread already with little to no responses towards them).

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

What is the source for the following

I'll check the first one for you

 

[Ultima_Reality]

There's no meaningful distinction between "absolute one" and "absolute oneness", "absolute one" oneness is just more clear as to what it means by "one", even then "absolute one" contextually would still be referring to the fact that it is absolute unity and absolute simplicity, considering right after that they explain how it's not reducible to anything but "existence".

An absolute first cause, isn't always simple, so no I'd disagree with it referring to just being an absolute cause (not like this miniscule response matters because cases for it being absolutely simple have been presented in the thread already with little to no responses towards them).

Yeah honestly this whole spiel on "Is it one or oneness?" is pretty ridiculous. Basically implicitly entertaining the idea that we should be looking for whether this or that magic word is used as opposed to looking at the actual lengthy descriptions and context given by the verse. That should just be a supporting detail at most.

 

[Deagonx]

There's no meaningful distinction between "absolute one" and "absolute oneness"

There's an enormous distinction. In the phrase "there is a cause, an absolute one" it would mean that "one" just refers to "cause." As in the phrase "he has a car, it's a fast one."

That's a completely different meaning than "oneness."

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

You can find it here.

Here's an Imgur album I made of the official translation of the scene. Sorry, some of the scans are slightly out of order (that's what I get for doing this on my phone, and using my Switch to take screenshots of my own copy of Tsukihime: A Piece of Blue Glass Moon).

Here's the fan translation of the scene. The scene starts at about 1:32:30. Keep in mind that the fan translation uses some... unique terminology to refer to the same stuff (like using "Source" instead of "Root").

Oh yeah, this is from Day 7 of Arcueid's route in Tsukihime: A Piece of Blue Glass Moon (aka, Tsukihime Remake).

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

his is the one ultima was looking for.

I've been reading this thread for a while this just kind of spells it out for me. It even says you can't reach the Root, the only way to do so is by having the privileges given by the Root anyway.

The whole debate on everything else seems pointless or trying to take more abstract language far too literally. I think it's pretty clear you get deleted when you reach the Root. Add me to the agreement list, it should be Tier 0.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, going through the thread, Tier 0 is fine by me. A large chunk of the posts seem to just be hang ups over semantics rather than actual surrounding context.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

Well this also gives a new distinct fourth translation. It says "there is a cause, an absolute one, that is the basis for all events." That would mean it's just being called an absolute cause, not "absolute oneness"

You do understand that if something is "an absolute cause" in the sense of being the ground for all phenomena with a beginning, you'd logically have to be a oneness that underlies these phenomena either way.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

There's an enormous distinction. In the phrase "there is a cause, an absolute one" it would mean that "one" just refers to "cause." As in the phrase "he has a car, it's a fast one."

That's a completely different meaning than "oneness."

Mb big bro you're right

 

[Deagonx]

How can you return to "somewhere" you were never in? Explain that to me. Explain, also, the fact that contact with the Root is pretty plainly described as annihilation. You ignored all of that and just went back to restating already-addressed things

The explanation you're demanding is within the quoted section. Even Theoretical said: "everything flows from the Root." There is a scan that says "we are all just atoms that originated from this common source.

The "The person who become God was lonely" tidbit is presented as the narrator recounting the thoughts of another person (Who, from what I can garner, is a much less knowledgeable character than the girl talking), not as actual fact. I don't think any of that girl's statements contradict each other at all.

Even if that were true, Aoko directly says this:

"So why would they even bother coming back to our world? Or maybe they can't, who knows."​

It's considered an open question whether or not they can come back. This is reflected again by Touko and Araya.

Overall, nobody is dismissing certain statements in favor of others at all. The point of the above post is to show they're all pretty harmonious with each other. Also, doesn't matter one whit if "Oh, technically, they never use the exact word 'reunify'..." Reading is more than staring at words.

That's precisely what is occurring. The statements being used in favor of Monism only describe some -- not all -- attributes required to be a monad. Several of them are very brief, translated questionably, or are expressed in uncertain terms. The parts that contradict it, however, are often exceedingly direct and require these ad-hoc justifications to bring it into harmony with the proposed upgrade.

So for instance when Shiki says in the epilogue (an additional instance of this):

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".​

We must coordinate some kind of justification that means she wasn't actually inside of it, she was only looking at it. Even though both of these sentences directly say she was inside of it. When she has a two paragraph segment where she says she's inside of it over and over again, we again must explain it away.

When it's described as a location, another world, the "outside" of the world, we must explain it away. It's not a place -- even a metaphysical one -- where things can actually go because that would mean it's not a monad. When Ritsuke ends up literally inside the root and Shiki says:

"Oh my. For a guest to arrive here... Is this some kind of mistake?"​

We must yet again come up with a justification to make sure we can find a way to rationalize this without sacrificing monism, so that we can keep the special number. This is repeated across many scans. When they say theres a great deal of unused mana on the otherside of the dimensional wall between us in the Root, we can't allow that to mean the Root actually has or is a power source, it must mean something else, so it can stay a monad.

Normal magecraft is described as being derived from the Root, the same way everything else is derived from the Root. True Magic however is said to come from it directly. We must again relegate this to another form of emanation or derivation (despite the explicit contrast) so that True Magic doesn't present a threat to the Root's purported monism.

I don't know why you treat the Root being supposed to be a monad as a "theory." It is pretty blatantly described in such terms. Of course we are going to take Piece of Information A and harmonize it with Piece of Information B if B does not inherently contradict with A whatsoever.

No, it really isn't. It's called the beginning of all things, it's described as a dark abyss, and then there's the "an absolute first cause" scan that's been translated four different ways. We've taken these scraps of information, extrapolated monism out of it, and now we're spending the remainder of our time and energy doing gymnastics to bring everything else into harmony with that monism when we could just as easily cognize the Root as having the above qualities without being a monad, in a way that doesn't require us to make up explanations for why Shiki wasn't really there, it doesn't really contain mana, Ritsuka didn't go there, the guy that went there and came back never really did that, true magic isn't really from the Root etc. etc.

I don't buy it, frankly.

 

[Deagonx]

Mb big bro you're right

By the way, you posted a scan earlier that uses neither "one" nor "oneness" as the translation.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

We've taken these scraps of information, extrapolated monism out of it, and now we're spending the remainder of our time and energy doing gymnastics to bring everything else into harmony with that monism when we could just as easily cognize the Root as having the above qualities without being a monad, in a way that doesn't require us to make up explanations for why Shiki wasn't really there, it doesn't really contain mana, Ritsuka didn't go there, the guy that went there and came back never really did that, true magic isn't really from the Root etc. etc.

Maybe because not everyone... Ignores the context behind statements to nitpick portions that are "allegedly" anti-feats for something.

By the way, you posted a scan earlier that uses neither "one" nor "oneness" as the translation.

The translations were called into question, that's why the raws were sent to be translated.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

I don't understand why is the thread being made more difficult than it should've been, the most miniscule pieces of evidence are being overanalyzed and instead of responding to explanations as to how the "alleged" anti-feats aren't anti-feats... We just get this...

The explanation you're demanding is within the quoted section. Even Theoretical said: "everything flows from the Root." There is a scan that says "we are all just atoms that originated from this common source.


Even if that were true, Aoko directly says this:

"So why would they even bother coming back to our world? Or maybe they can't, who knows."​

It's considered an open question whether or not they can come back. This is reflected again by Touko and Araya.

That's precisely what is occurring. The statements being used in favor of Monism only describe some -- not all -- attributes required to be a monad. Several of them are very brief, translated questionably, or are expressed in uncertain terms. The parts that contradict it, however, are often exceedingly direct and require these ad-hoc justifications to bring it into harmony with the proposed upgrade.

So for instance when Shiki says in the epilogue (an additional instance of this):

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".​

We must coordinate some kind of justification that means she wasn't actually inside of it, she was only looking at it. Even though both of these sentences directly say she was inside of it. When she has a two paragraph segment where she says she's inside of it over and over again, we again must explain it away.

When it's described as a location, another world, the "outside" of the world, we must explain it away. It's not a place -- even a metaphysical one -- where things can actually go because that would mean it's not a monad. When Ritsuke ends up literally inside the root and Shiki says:

"Oh my. For a guest to arrive here... Is this some kind of mistake?"​

We must yet again come up with a justification to make sure we can find a way to rationalize this without sacrificing monism, so that we can keep the special number. This is repeated across many scans. When they say theres a great deal of unused mana on the otherside of the dimensional wall between us in the Root, we can't allow that to mean the Root actually has or is a power source, it must mean something else, so it can stay a monad.

Normal magecraft is described as being derived from the Root, the same way everything else is derived from the Root. True Magic however is said to come from it directly. We must again relegate this to another form of emanation or derivation (despite the explicit contrast) so that True Magic doesn't present a threat to the Root's purported monism.


No, it really isn't. It's called the beginning of all things, it's described as a dark abyss, and then there's the "an absolute first cause" scan that's been translated four different ways. We've taken these scraps of information, extrapolated monism out of it, and now we're spending the remainder of our time and energy doing gymnastics to bring everything else into harmony with that monism when we could just as easily cognize the Root as having the above qualities without being a monad, in a way that doesn't require us to make up explanations for why Shiki wasn't really there, it doesn't really contain mana, Ritsuka didn't go there, the guy that went there and came back never really did that, true magic isn't really from the Root etc. etc.

I don't buy it, frankly.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

I don't buy it, frankly.

Maybe if you'd stop ignoring context and nitpicking and getting hung over semantics because of your personal perception of something people wouldnt be wasting 2 weeks on addressing someone who has reading comprehension issues, idk

 

[Ultima_Reality]

No, it really isn't. It's called the beginning of all things, it's described as a dark abyss, and then there's the "an absolute first cause" scan that's been translated four different ways. We've taken these scraps of information, extrapolated monism out of it

According to the Dharma, vacuum is the state of freedom.
There is no duality of opposites,
The mind that sees the reason of the world and the way the world is as it is.

The sky is far away and the colors are pale.
Your shadow stands on the boundary of nowhere,
and watches the stars.

　　The sky is far away, and the colors are pale.

The love is a temporary dream.
That dream is an eternal remnant.
The meeting that could never be, but was lit for a short time,
I am still looking at it.

Like looking at a faraway empty sky on a snowy night.

法に曰く、真空とは自在の境地。
二元対立の分別はなく、
世の理、世の在り方をありのままに観ずる心。

空は遠く、色彩は淡く。
貴影は何処ともつかぬ境界に立ち、
星の行方を眺めている。

　　◆

その恋は一時の夢。
その夢は永遠の名残。
有り得る筈のない、けれど束の間に灯った出会いを、
私は今も眺めている。

雪の夜、遙かな虚空を見るように。

NA Localization: As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom.
Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplates the world both as it should be and as it is.

The sky is distant, the colors pale.
A noble figure stands on an uncertain boundary, gazing at the whereabouts of the stars.

"At this point, there is an "archive of all things." Though it's less of an archive and more of an "existence"; not really information. It is "existence," nothing more."

""The Swirl of the Root, or the Root for short. Sometimes it's even referred to as [ ]. That is, the point for which there is no reference. You know what "zero" means. So it's already useless as a comparison for how unfathomable this is."

Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.

Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.

However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.

If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Rougi would find it and cut away everything.

…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself.

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.”Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”.To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs

All of the above statements, without exception, are Tier 0 statements. So, either you are sincerely clueless or being dishonest about this. Most likely a mixture of both. Either way, this is just consistent information that we are given, and so we analyze statements under those lenses, because that is clearly what the work is intending. That's just how hermeneutics works.

All you've done so far is throw around polemics while not addressing the actual substance of any of the counterarguments given. Both Theoretical and ShadowWhoWalks have given extensive responses to your points and you've wholly ignored them. Go tackle those.

 

[Deagonx]

Maybe because not everyone... Ignores the context behind statements to nitpick portions that are "allegedly" anti-feats for something.

What you're trying to describe as "context" is literally an ad-hoc explanation meant to directly contradict the source material, because the source material contradicts monism, and we've decided monads are Tier 0. I know that this is why these explanations are being created, because the supporters had no problem saying things were literally in the Root prior to these revisions, or that things survived the root, etc.

Roa's soul does not sit in the root, it just survives passing through it

Furthermore, the origin is accepted to exist within the Root and should be 1-A; as such, we've already had people like Roa, who is accepted as having a 1-A soul that exists within the Root from which he can reincarnate from.

That's still a durability feat for his soul, if anything touches the root it disappears into nothingness and becomes a part of it

[] still exists beyond things accepted as 1-A such as Roa's soul and the origin which is accepted to exist within the root via that one nasuverse concept crt

Ryougi is still the only soul to survive being in the root without permanently disappearing because of the origin of Emptiness.

What happens when someone dies, is that their soul is erased by the root, leaving only their Origin, all other information and metaphysical aspects are erased, and the origin is then used for something else, Roa however, maintains his information, it does not get erased and he comes back out just fine, into the host of his choosing

No. The root is the source for all things that exists in the Nasuverse. Yog-Sothoth exists in it

I proved to you how everything traces on infinitely to their primordial origin which is located in the root

it's not that. it's that Roa modified his soul to make it not be erased by the Root after his death, so he could reincarnate. by destroying his soul, you are destroying something the root could not/did not, which is why MEoDP and the 7th holy scripture have 1-A hax

So yes, both throne and root are located in the same plane.

I do think it's logically possible for the throne of heroes to be in the same plane as the root

we already know that Roa's soul is in the Root.

-Roa is unique in that his soul is able to pass through the Root and remain intact, allowing him to reincarnate several times over the course of centuries

Funny how things change, right? I'm sure it is a coincidence that this collective shift in opinion coincides with a standards revision that makes all of these anti-feats.

 

[Mageman460]

Funny how things change, right? I'm sure it is a coincidence that this collective shift in opinion coincides with a standards revision that makes all of these anti-feats.

Hi yeah, as the guy who made the Roa downgrade thread (also Crimson gave me permission,) if you read the actual thread I made to remove the Roa Root scaling, you'd notice how I specifically mention that I didn't make the thread because of the Tier 0 revisions. I made it because Roa is never actually stated to go into the Root. I even made a joke in the thread about him getting Root level Social Influencing because literally everyone seems to think he's Root level, when nothing points to that. You even AGREED with the downgrade thread. It was just kinda accepted Roa went to the Root, when nothing showed proof of that, we even provided proof of the opposite in fact. I had been talking about removing the Roa Root stuff on Discord long before I even knew about the Tier 0 Revisions as well.

 

[Deagonx]

Roa is not the only thing listed (although he did explicit say he journeyed through emptiness many times). In any case, the point is that the collective mass of supporters were fine with the basic premise of things being inside the root until now, where it has suddenly become an unreasonable position that only someone who doesn't know the verse could hold.

 

[KingNanaya]

Should you not summon more staff members and start tallying the votes?

Crimson, Plank, and Ultima agree, while Deagon disagrees. Firestorm wants to compile a blog post, and DT only made one comment and hasn't expressed interest since.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

What you're trying to describe as "context" is literally an ad-hoc explanation meant to directly contradict the source material, because the source material contradicts monism, and we've decided monads are Tier 0. I know that this is why these explanations are being created, because the supporters had no problem saying things were literally in the Root prior to these revisions, or that things survived the root, etc.
















Funny how things change, right? I'm sure it is a coincidence that this collective shift in opinion coincides with a standards revision that makes all of these anti-feats.

This is just a pretty obvious case of poisoning of the well. So, chill out with that.

I will delete all the comments going off-rails over this post, but I speak on behalf of all them when I say: Don't pull this shit again. I don't really care if the supporters are changing their minds because of the standards or not. Either way, the substance of the arguments on both sides is not changed in the slightest, so starting this pointless mudslinging is completely unnecessary and, furthermore, unbecoming even of someone in your position. Knock it off.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

This is just a pretty obvious case of poisoning of the well. So, chill out with that.

I will delete all the comments going off-rails over this post, but I speak on behalf of all them when I say: Don't pull this shit again. I don't really care if the supporters are changing their minds because of the standards or not. Either way, the substance of the arguments on both sides is not changed in the slightest, so starting this pointless mudslinging is completely unnecessary and, furthermore, unbecoming even of someone in your position. Knock it off.

Seems to me the only person expressing disagreements is running out and starting to derail for personal issues and throwing incoherent accusations.

Is it not a high time to just wrap things up and tally the votes? Since I doubt we'll be seeing anything of substance coming from deagon, in this thread or anytime in the future

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Seems to me the only person expressing disagreements is running out and starting to derail for personal issues and throwing incoherent accusations.

Is it not a high time to just wrap things up and tally the votes? Since I doubt we'll be seeing anything of substance coming from deagon, in this thread or anytime in the future

Yeah, I'll undelete this comment, or at the very least, make it visible here. Those aren't really insults but just genuine observations. Deagon didn't even address the two posts that I pointed out to him, but instead took the time to go over threads from 1 to 2-3 years ago to gather material for the above accusations.

Honestly, either meaningfully engage with the counterpoints or sit down and watch as we start forming summaries and tallies. It's that simple.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah reading the conversation I’m not at all convinced by the arguments against the root being tier 0, this just looks like massive nitpicking rather than actually refuting the main points. Put me in for agreeing

 

[Deagonx]

No, frankly, I don't accept that at all given the way this discussion has gone. I've been more than patient with numerous accusations made towards me, that you conspicuously haven't had any issue with, and have even participated in.

Well there is a pretty blatant instance of either the opposition just not having any clue on what they're talking about, despite claiming to have expertise in the specific title the statement comes from, or purposefully omitting information for agenda posting(the holy grail stuff was pretty out of context asw). Halting the discussion to go look for more anti-feats because you've ran out is hilarious behavior, but ig the forum's 2 week graze period allows this type of stuff to happen

{This} is purposefully being a bit dishonest

Everything else he posted is irrelevant because he just highlighted more things to make it seem like his point had more evidence

Everything else seems to be just inability to interpret a text and go beyond the plain meaning of phrases

I honestly doubt anyone here can change Deagon's mind as it seems he's not arguing in good faith.

Maybe because not everyone... Ignores the context behind statements to nitpick portions that are "allegedly" anti-feats for something.

And I've more or less ignored it. Yet, when I prove definitively that the supporters of this verse are actively changing their stances to align with an upgrade-compatible interpretation of things, and are even questioning my own integrity or good faith on the basis that I... agree with stances they held prior to the Tier 0 revisions, suddenly we have a crisis. The well is being poisoned. You even undelete a comment that serves no purpose but to insult me.

Ridiculous. We have all the evidence we need to support an interpretation of the Root that allows for things to be inside of it. The only reason to twist yourself in knots to reinterpret those scenes is because it would contradict monism, not because it contradicts anything else the verse actually says. It merely contradicts the interpretation of those other scans that would allow for an upgrade. Yet, then we're told plain as day:

Call me crazy, but I tend to think that if a "guest arrives here" that they are arriving here. If Shiki is already there to receive this guest, then that means Shiki is there. This is the same scene the OP used as evidence of the Roots qualities, that it was "boundless." Yet now we must rewrite or reimagine this to refer to something other than the Root to maintain monism. That's not a good way to evaluate things.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Meeting? The root? And the root being surprised? You mean when he was dreaming being there and Saber Shiki who was dreaming being there as well talking about how he shouldn't be there? Which part implies the Swirl of the root talking and being surprised?

.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

No, frankly, I don't accept that at all given the way this discussion has gone. I've been more than patient with numerous accusations made towards me, that you conspicuously haven't had any issue with, and have even participated in.








And I've more or less ignored it. Yet, when I prove definitively that the supporters of this verse are actively changing their stances to align with an upgrade-compatible interpretation of things, and are even questioning my own integrity or good faith on the basis that I... agree with stances they held prior to the Tier 0 revisions, suddenly we have a crisis. The well is being poisoned. You even undelete a comment that serves no purpose but to insult me.

Ridiculous. We have all the evidence we need to support an interpretation of the Root that allows for things to be inside of it. The only reason to twist yourself in knots to reinterpret those scenes is because it would contradict monism, not because it contradicts anything else the verse actually says. It merely contradicts the interpretation of those other scans that would allow for an upgrade. Yet, then we're told plain as day:

Call me crazy, but I tend to think that if a "guest arrives here" that they are arriving here. If Shiki is already there to receive this guest, then that means Shiki is there. This is the same scene the OP used as evidence of the Roots qualities, that it was "boundless." Yet now we must rewrite or reimagine this to refer to something other than the Root to maintain monism. That's not a good way to evaluate things.

Yeah, none of these are remotely comparable to a whole post dedicated entirely to flinging accusations of... changing one's mind. And a good chunk of these instances are calls for paralyzing the discussion, which were either not accepted or met with indifference by me.

So, overall: What exactly are you insinuating? Do you think the evidence for your side is just so obvious that you can't be bothered to address these posts? If not, then the comment I've undeleted is ultimately proven wrong. If the answer is "Yes," then I'm afraid it is simply correct in saying that you will not add anything of further substance to this debate.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

You read the op, if you did then you already know why I said, "directly emanates from it", because everything flows from it magecraft happens to be a mediate emanation and true magic directly derives from the Swirl of the root hence it's an immediate emanation.

That aside, I don't understand why Tier 0 is being analyzed like it's as well defined as something from mathematics, it's rooted in mysticism which always has a lot of nuance to it, mysticism tends to use different manifestations of the same ultimate reality to explain certain information that can be known about the ultimate reality, just as the Akashic Records can be known, without necessarily denouncing the fact that it's fullness in essence is still fundamentally unknowable, the Akashic records are a part of the Swirl of the root, not the other way around so the Swirl of the root ought to be more fundamental than them.

It's a running theme in the world that nobody knows what the Swirl of the root is, even in the statements people try to use to contradict it the people who speak in the dialogues immediately reduce their statements to just being mere theories and rumors spread around by it. I think it should be fair to analyze statements depending on the logical consistency behind the statements themselves.

For example, Aoko says to touch it and understand it redefines the word "impossible" and proceeds to outline how nobody knows what happens to those who touch and even the hypothesis that it is where "God is" is something that has little to no proof. As for the Touko message for Araya, she says "he or may not retain his sense of self", the fact that she says "may" immediately outlines how even she doesn't know and it's just another hypothesis about the Swirl of the root, heck she's the same person who describe the Swirl of the root as "ultimate knowledge" or "perfect knowledge"

And immediately says because intellectual wisdom creates a standard like "perfect" or "ultimate" knowledge, it can't be said to be the Swirl of the root and describes what it is not rather than what it is as it implies the fact that the Swirl of the root would be reduced to being finite. Touko's explanation here aligns perfectly with Saber Ryougi (who's said to be omniscient btw even in fgo) saying the place doesn't have boundaries.


Which in turns aligns with how Kara no Kyoukai describes the distinction between Spurious infinity and something that has no limits which has already been covered in the OP. The Swirl of the root, is treated as a place "without end" and "without limits" that which can create "anything" as a result, it isn't just being beyond the material, it is just free from restrictions, where even definitions limit and make it finite, as Spurious infinity is defined by limits as explained by the OP, it is limited by its own definition that distinguishes it from being finite.


Whilst True Emptiness is a radical state of freedom, where dual distinctions like "infinity and finitude" are dissolved into a unity that is "without end", this is why the mystic eyes can cut through everything, because limits exist in everything including infinity. Ryougi Shiki has never physically touched the Swirl of the root whatsoever, she was still in a hospital bed, I'd be okay with saying her consciousness experienced it. But funny enough the only person who experienced the Swirl of the root, describes her experience in the most non informative way possible.

She says "it's dark" but immediately realizes how that description is inadequate and says "there's neither light nor darkness", she then says she was floating and falling within it but realizes even that description is inadequate as she says "I can't see anything, because there's nothing" and immediately says "it doesn't make sense to fall", after saying it's nothing she says "there's probably no such thing as nothing" and says "my body is sinking in a world where even such a description is meaningless".

This aligns with Reines saying it is not zero, because even zero has baggage, but it's 'no-thing', an unfathomable force where points of references cease to be, which aligns with the special pamphlet saying "it was the Spiral of Origin, however since the spiral of origin can be called itself, it was no longer Emptiness"

Funny enough even that aligns with Arcueid one of the most knowledgeable people in the verse describing it by what it's not and explaining how it's not reducible to anything but just its existence, she makes it clear that at the Swirl of the root there is an 'archive of all things', but it's less of an 'archive' and more of just an 'existence' not information but just 'existence', she says it has no will into itself and no possible directive it simply let's causes flow out of itself.

All attributes about it such as being the information or the akashic records are identical to its existence and its existence is not reducible to anything but itself, it cannot be regarded as anything but itself, pretty implicative of the Swirl of the root being fundamentally simple and not reducible to anything but itself, Arcueid continues to speak about how everything else has fallen so far into multiplicity and hence cannot reach the Swirl of the root, which is obviously absolutely simple.

Which aligns with the FGO describing it as a place free from binary restrictions and it being the source of Taiji, the one which produces Polarity which is Yin-Yang, her soul returning to the root is insignificant, all things come from and return back to the ultimate reality; her soul/origin is Emptiness already it's fine for it to experience nothing because it is nothing.

Does it really matter? Deagon was the one who initially used a fan translation with terrible reputation, the raws for statement in question have already been sent here.

I'm confused....I was told that if I have an issue with translations, I should provide a better translation but now it's this, is this a general rule or has it just been implemented now?

Kara No Kyoukai Paradox Spiral, I can probably find the raw scans for this.

The point of this was to explain the importance of analyzing statements about the the Swirl of the root carefully, because most people who speak of it make assumptions about it, not every assumption is gonna be necessarily true.

It is better to grant statements that are independent of characters dialogues, if it is the case that the character statement aligns with statements independent of the dialogues themselves then it's better to take that statement over a weird statement that doesn't align with the consistency behind the explanation of the it.

It being stated to be without boundaries is consistent with Kara no Kyoukai special pamphlet and Ryougi saying "it is without end" etc, dreaming about being in and accurately describing it doesn't mean you physically experience "THE" nothingness..., that's why that statement was used regardless, it's not a contradiction no matter how hard you try to make it out to be a contradiction.

 

[Deagonx]

Meeting? The root? And the root being surprised? You mean when he was dreaming being there and Saber Shiki who was dreaming being there as well talking about how he shouldn't be there? Which part implies the Swirl of the root talking and being surprised?

So your take on this is that this is not the Root, that they are both dreaming, and that their dreams are somehow connected, not that the character who is known to be associated with the Root was in the Root?

Hey, isn't it weird that in your last rebuttal to me you used a scan from this exact same scene to justify something about the Root?

Touko's explanation here aligns perfectly with Saber Ryougi (who's said to be omniscient btw even in fgo) saying the place doesn't have boundaries.

So. Is Shiki not actually there? Ritsuka is not there? This is just a fever dream both of them shared that wasn't actually in the root despite both of them being there? That when Shiki described their shared location in a manner that you felt was relevant yesterday as a scan about the Root, she was instead either (A) describing a location that they weren't actually in or (B) describing a dream world? Or are they both simply "peering" at the Root, which is somehow allowing them to communicate despite neither being in the Root, and when Shiki describes them as being there and says its odd for Ritsuka to be there because he has a name, what are we saying? Why would it be weird for Ritsuka to be in a dream world with a name?

Unless.... gasp, they were in the Root!

Yeah, none of these are remotely comparable to a whole post dedicated entirely to flinging accusations of... changing one's mind.

You're right. Those were purposeless insults and my post pointed out a factual trend of intentionally switching stances to achieve an upgrade. Not merely being persuaded to a different outlook, rather, actively defending a stance based on it's ability to achieve an upgrade instead of what is most supported.

So, overall: What exactly are you insinuating? Do you think the evidence for your side is just so obvious that you can't be bothered to address these posts?

I was responded to by three people, and many of the points overlapped. In any case, yes, on some level it is that obvious. I quote the post you just linked from Theoretical above, where he uses the scene in which Ritsuka visits Shiki in the Root, where Shiki says the Root is without boundaries.

Stop for a second. This is a scan of the character who is the Root in a scene describing the root, where there is someone else present. This was considered an acceptable way to prove a point about the Root, so what exactly are we saying? How do we reconcile a stance in which none of this information constitutes a fact that one or both of these people were literally inside the Root, but where what Shiki says during this scene is considered reputable information about the Root?

What is the point of this silliness? Things can be inside the root. It's happened several times. No one had a problem with it until it was an antifeat for Tier 0, why do we have a problem with it now? Why are we quoting scenes where it happens for evidence and then simultaneously writing headcanon to justify it not being what it clearly is? Yet I'm the one being accused of bad faith? No, I don't accept that.