Arc Comes Home With The Milk [Bleach Soul Society Arc Captain Class Scaling]

[Rocker1189]

It's not explicitly stated, however not only is it consistent but it's logically deduced from the mechanics of the verse. Your ability to dish out damage and your AP is a factor of your spiritual pressure (the ability to exert your spirit energy) plus your raw physical strenght. Aka SP + Attack.

How is it consistent when you acknowledge that TYBW Unohana would stomp SS arc Zaraki yet put people who are within 10 points of each other as similar in power.

Heck it doesnt make sense with Zaraki which I know you say it refers to the fact that he doesnt utilize spiritual energy but again that makes no sense because Zaraki was in fact utilizing it in his fight with Ichigo, that was literally how he was explaining the difference in their strength. The more likely and frankly actually consistent interpretation is their uses of Kido.

Also you are talking like the databook was made for vsbw. They dont have AP put in mind for us. If they do not explicitly say that your overall power to damage someone is Attack + spiritual pressure then dont use it as such.

Oh and how would this work for things like defense which can be wildly different from their attack. Would we now consider durability like defence + SP?

 

[Deceived3596]

Real

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

How is it consistent when you acknowledge that TYBW Unohana would stomp SS arc Zaraki yet put people who are within 10 points of each other as similar in power.

Heck it doesnt make sense with Zaraki which I know you say it refers to the fact that he doesnt utilize spiritual energy but again that makes no sense because Zaraki was in fact utilizing it in his fight with Ichigo, that was literally how he was explaining the difference in their strength. The more likely and frankly actually consistent interpretation is their uses of Kido.

Also you are talking like the databook was made for vsbw. They dont have AP put in mind for us. If they do not explicitly say that your overall power to damage someone is Attack + spiritual pressure then dont use it as such.

Lol funny that I address this in the intro but sure I'll repeat myself.

databook stats are not linear

because as you said, Unohana would one tap that Zaraki.

None of Bleach is made for vsbw, that point is irrelevant. But yes in the series your AP is a combination of your magic ghost samurai energy (SP) and your raw brute strength (Attack). That's not debatable, that's how the verse works.

 

[Deceived3596]

Rocker moment.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It should be noted that the databook stats are not linear. As you’ll soon find out, people like Zaraki have “199” AP while Unohana has a “200” AP, but it is obvious that Unohana can easily kill Soul Society arc Zaraki as she kills Zaraki over and over again in the TYBW. However, Gin has a “160” AP compared to Toshiro’s “170” AP, yet they are able to fight relative to each other. So, it should be clear that the gaps in these AP stat values aren’t linearly scaling, but rather should be treated as tiers.

From the first section in the OP, important parts bolded

 

[Damage3245]

None of Bleach is made for vsbw, that point is irrelevant. But yes in the series your AP is a combination of your magic ghost samurai energy (SP) and your raw brute strength (Attack). That's not debatable, that's how the verse works.

Not all forms of AP among the Captains can be considered a pure combination of their raw strength and their spiritual pressure.

It seems a little too simplisitc to boil it down to that.

That SP stat is also noted to be Kido it seems, and at the side of this image, it seems that the stat is primarily for Kido.

So it looks like it is being asserted that their AP is their raw strength + Kido mashed together.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Not all forms of AP among the Captains can be considered a pure combination of their raw strength and their spiritual pressure.

It seems a little too simplisitc to boil it down to that.

That is what all AP in the series is, ignoring stuff like hax, but hax isn't AP. Every character that has those stats very much abides by that. Every one of them swings a sword using their physical strength and magic soul energy.

 

[Arcker123]

Not all forms of AP among the Captains can be considered a pure combination of their raw strength and their spiritual pressure.

Damage moment lmao

Arc: Presents a claim and provides justification in the databook

Damage: Deny the claim based on absolutely nothing and present a baseless counter claim

 

[Damage3245]

Please nobody derail this thread with reaction images + gifs. I want to be to relatively easy to go through when I have time.

@Arc7Kuroi Added to my comment with this:

That SP stat is also noted to be Kido it seems, and at the side of this image, it seems that the stat is primarily for Kido.

So it looks like it is being asserted that their AP is their raw strength + Kido mashed together.

 

[Rocker1189]

databook stats are not linear

Yes, I know that and I know you said that and it has nothing to do with anything I said.

But yes in the series your AP is a combination of your magic ghost samurai energy (SP) and your raw brute strength (Attack). That's not debatable, that's how the verse works.

Literally both of your comments have zilch to do with what I said.

Yes it is not linear so why is it that you somehow think that despite 199 being massive under 200 that 160 can somehow compare to 170.

And how is it that zaraki has 0 SP despite the fact he has indeed used SP in the manga at that point. On top of that image emphasizing Kido as th ereason for his low rating.

 

[SilentBob34]

Only thing I think you should reword is “Ulquiorra fired a cero that barely managed to graze Las Noches”. What do you mean? He aimed it at Ichigo who was literally standing on the roof lol. His cero hit Las Noches directly

 

[Arcker123]

Please nobody derail this thread with reaction images + gifs. I want to be to relatively easy to go through when I have time.

I don't see what's wrong about memes. No one but you has a problem with this, i'm not gonna not joke specifically for you. Meme's also aren't derailment i don't see why that's true at all.

Also

Spoiler: I'm sorry but it's just to appropriate

 

[Rocker1189]

You know what actually fits the Toshiro and Gin scenario? The fact that they both have 80 attack and defence. Logically meaning that attack and defense is in fact their "physical and spiritual" AP/Dura. And fitting with the weird ratings for Zaraki for SP which more than likely refers to Kido.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That SP stat is also noted to be Kido it seems, and at the side of this image, it seems that the stat is primarily for Kido.

So it looks like it is being asserted that their AP is their raw strength + Kido mashed together.

Kido is purely SP based, so it being thrown in there is just a product of that. But that doesn't debunk the notion that the stat is a measure of spiritual pressure.

Yes, I know that and I know you said that and it has nothing to do with anything I said.

Literally both of your comments have zilch to do with what I said.

Yes it is not linear so why is it that you somehow think that despite 199 being massive under 200 that 160 can somehow compare to 170.

And how is it that zaraki has 0 SP despite the fact he has indeed used SP in the manga at that point. On top of that image emphasizing Kido as th ereason for his low rating.

If you concede it is not linear then you cannot claim that certain gaps are larger than each other. Cuz they can't be quantified. I don't think it can be that way, it blatantly is that way. Read the Zaraki portion of my OP I very clearly explain the answer to your last question. Please stop asking questions I address in the OP lmao. Read before you respond.

Only thing I think you should reword is “Ulquiorra fired a cero that barely managed to graze Las Noches”. What do you mean? He aimed it at Ichigo who was literally standing on the roof lol. His cero hit Las Noches directly

Reread the scene the majority of the cero flew off into the air. Only the edge of the cero hit the roof. Hence grazed.

 

[Damage3245]

Kido is purely SP based, so it being thrown in there is just a product of that. But that doesn't debunk the notion that the stat is a measure of spiritual pressure.

Well, I haven't seen any evidence put forward that is a measurement / ranking of how well they put their spiritual pressure into their physical attacks / Zanpakuto usage.

The only thing we can say reliably for it that it tracks their Kido proficiency / usage.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well, I haven't seen any evidence put forward that is a measurement / ranking of how well they put their spiritual pressure into their physical attacks / Zanpakuto usage.

The only thing we can say reliably for it that it tracks their Kido proficiency / usage.

I can send the Kisuke scans from chapters 60-70, but Spiritual Pressure contributing to AP is something we explicitly accept on wiki. The stat is literally called spiritual pressure, if it were just called Kido you'd have a point.

 

[Rocker1189]

Kido is purely SP based, so it being thrown in there is just a product of that. But that doesn't debunk the notion that the stat is a measure of spiritual pressure.

Except zaraki having 0 SP you mean which is a massive contradiction to what we know and see.

If you concede it is not linear then you cannot claim that certain gaps are larger than each other.

If it is not linear it has to have some logic to it. I dont care about gaps being smaller or larger. That literally doesnt matter.

Read the Zaraki portion of my OP I very clearly explain the answer to your last question.

You explain something that is straight up factually wrong lmao. He doesnt only use raw physical strength, he straight up unconsciously uses SP. Or else these links make zero sense.

 

[Rocker1189]

if it were just called Kido you'd have a point.

Its called kido/SP with kido being first and specifically refers to kido when talking about why zaraki is at 0. It more than likely means kido mainly.

 

[Arcker123]

Well, I haven't seen any evidence put forward that is a measurement / ranking of how well they put their spiritual pressure into their physical attacks / Zanpakuto usage.

This is hilarious

Damage: I don't see how this SP stat has anything to do with SP

Arc already explained why it was also named Kido, and he explained how spiritual pressure/AP is already something we accept...

 

[KingogKings777]

Its called kido/SP with kido being first and specifically refers to kido when talking about why zaraki is at 0. It more than likely means kido mainly.

So you saying Kenpachi got 0 SP?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Except zaraki having 0 SP you mean which is a massive contradiction to what we know and see.

It isn't allow me to repeat myself with you again by quoting my own OP.

Now let me explain the 0 Spiritual Pressure stat. It is not saying Zaraki has 0 Spiritual Pressure in the sense that he has no Spiritual Energy to exert, rather he doesn’t utilize his Spiritual Pressure to attack like any other character, he simply uses his brute strength. Which should come to no surprise, and we even find out that the reason his sword is chipped is due to his own uncontrolled Spiritual Pressure grating the blade.

If it is not linear it has to have some logic to it. I dont care about gaps being smaller or larger. That literally doesnt matter.

It doesn't have to have consistent gaps between stats at all. Nothing says it does, nothing proves it must.

You explain something that is straight up factually wrong lmao. He doesnt only use raw physical strength, he straight up unconsciously uses SP. Or else these links make zero sense.

Unfortunately the scans you sent explicitly refer to Zaraki's durability. They don't have anything to do with AP, what Zaraki is talking about is how the SP leaking from him acts as a shield, and if you can't overcome that shield you can't cut him.

ts called kido/SP with kido being first and specifically refers to kido when talking about why zaraki is at 0. It more than likely means kido mainly.

Kido is purely SP based, so it being thrown in there is just a product of that. But that doesn't debunk the notion that the stat is a measure of spiritual pressure.

You're making a baseless claim, asserting it must just be a Kido measurement and not have to do with SP.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arcker123; for my own mental health, I'm going to ignore everything you say and just respond to Arc7 on this. Please stop responding to me. You can continue if you like, but I don't care.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

well, I'll see more of the arguments of others to decide if I agree, but I'm almost in agreement, for now I'm neutral.

 

[LordTracer]

[insert Count Dooku “I’ve been looking forward to this” here]

All of this looks pretty good to me, there’s just a few things I want to go over.

Should Soi Fon get the “At most” scaling or some variant of it (possibly or likely), should she simply be rated as unknown in this arc, or another alternative?

Can’t believe my girl Soifon is getting done like this
As much as I would like to say she scales to At most 6-B… I don’t really see why she would. As you said, the databook stats aren’t linear, so I can’t see any reason why she would downscale from Gin.

Finally, Gin offers some support for the 160/170 AP stat downscale from the 180 AP stat characters that scale to the Sokyoku, as Gin is able to pierce Byakuya with Shinso. Although Byakuya was fatigued from his fight with Ichigo, he was still able to move to block, which should warrant a fair downscale to baseline 6-B in my opinion.

Just my opinion here, but downscaling from 38.94 teratons all the way down to 7 teratons seems a bit… much? That’s a 5.6x difference. Personally, I think it’d be better to list the characters as “At most 38.94 teratons”.

Should Komamura’s Bankai warrant a possibly or likely scaling to Zaraki, or are the implications too vague?

Giving Komamura’s Bankai a ‘Likely’ scaling to Zaraki is perfectly fine with me.

Should Uryu’s Letz Stil scale beyond the Sokyoku based on Mayuri’s statement or some variant of that (possibly or likely), or is that statement too vague/NLF?

I’m fine with a ‘Possibly‘ rating for this, based on the logic that Mayuri would have some knowledge of Zaraki’s power since he created his eyepatch.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Btw should’ve mentioned this before, I agree with the OP. Helps that Arc is addressing counters pretty well from what I’m seeing

Edit: LordTracer’s propositions also have some weight to them so I’ll wait for counters on that front. Generally speaking though, I agree with the OP

 

[Rocker1189]

So you saying Kenpachi got 0 SP?

Well of course not. I am saying he has 0 kido. As we know he doesnt use any kido.

Unfortunately the scans you sent explicitly refer to Zaraki's durability. They don't have to do with AP, what Zaraki is talking about is how the SP leaking from him acts as a shield, and if you can't overcome that shield you can't cut him.

SP should also provide defense to them so Zaraki's defense is 80 to his 199 attack? His durability in this arc should be far below his AP then if that is what you are saying.

You're making a baseless claim, asserting it must just be a Kido measurement and not have to do with SP.

How is it baseless when that is not only literally what it says when talking about zaraki. It literally fits with what should be each characters kido knowledge/level.

Also is he not utilizing SP here and here then?

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Hard disagree

No, I will not elaborate why

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Can’t believe my girl Soifon is getting done like this
As much as I would like to say she scales to At most 6-B… I don’t really see why she would. As you said, the databook stats aren’t linear, so I can’t see any reason why she would downscale from Gin.

Yeah I was trying with her but I totally get this 100%.

Just my opinion here, but downscaling from 38.94 teratons all the way down to 7 teratons seems a bit… much? That’s a 5.6x difference. Personally, I think it’d be better to list the characters as “At most 38.94 teratons”.

We can do that, I took the downscale route to baseline because that is what is standard for downscale procedure.

Giving Komamura’s Bankai a ‘Likely’ scaling to Zaraki is perfectly fine with me.

Okey

I’m fine with a ‘Possibly‘ rating for this, based on the logic that Mayuri would have some knowledge of Zaraki’s power since he created his eyepatch.

Cool

 

[Arcker123]

@Arcker123; for my own mental health, I'm going to ignore everything you say and just respond to Arc7 on this. Please stop responding to me. You can continue if you like, but I don't care.

Concession accepted Ig

How is it baseless when that is not only literally what it says when talking about zaraki. It literally fits with what should be each characters kido know/level.

I don't think your fully comprehending his argument. Arc is arguing that the stat measures ones ability to put SP into attacks. As he said, Kido is simply putting SP into magic, which is something Kenny can't do. There is no reason to include the SP part of the stat if your interpretation is correct.

 

[KingogKings777]

Hard disagree

Yes, I will elaborate why

Why?

 

[Rocker1189]

I don't think your fully comprehending his argument. Arc is arguing that the stat measures ones ability to put SP into attacks. As he said, Kido is simply putting SP into magic, which is something Kenny can't do. There is no reason to include the SP part of the stat if your interpretation is correct.

I comprehended it fine thank you. I am saying that I disagree with the fact that zaraki uses literally 0 SP in any attacks during the SS arc.

 

[LordTracer]

We can do that, I took the downscale route to baseline because that is what is standard for downscale procedure.

It is… but usually that’s when the value is pretty close to baseline. 5.6x away isn’t what I’d consider close lol

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Why?

You a damn goober

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

SP should also provide defense to them so Zaraki's defense is 80 to his 199 attack? His durability in this arc should be far below his AP then if that is what you are saying.

Considering Zaraki is harmed by far weaker characters consistently, and seems to only function off of his passive durability, this isn't exactly wrong.

How is it baseless when that is not only literally what it says when talking about zaraki. It literally fits with what should be each characters kido know/level.

Also is he not utilizing SP here and here then?

It's entirely baseless that it only refers to Kido when we know for a fact that Zaraki does not have good control over manipulating his spirit energy as he himself concedes to. The scans you sent is just his SP wildly flaring out of his body. Zaraki having a low SP stat does not mean he has no SP, it just means he isn't adept at using/applying it, which is extremely consistent with what is shown.

I comprehended it fine thank you. I am saying that I disagree with the fact that zaraki uses literally 0 SP in any attacks during the SS arc.

Luckily no one but you claimed that.

It is… but usually that’s when the value is pretty close to baseline. 5.6x away isn’t what I’d consider close lol

Personally I don't think 5.6x is massive, but I'll see what others think for sure.

 

[SilentBob34]

Reread the scene the majority of the cero flew off into the air. Only the edge of the cero hit the roof. Hence grazed.

That doesn’t even make sense really, so only the edge hit Ichigo too? Or after it hit him the Cero decided to peace out and take off into the air ?

 

[Deceived3596]

The "Kido/SP" aspect of that chart isn't referencing one's amount of Reiatsu, it's referencing one's ability to control their Reiatsu, which would include things like Kido since Kido is entirely dependent on one's ability to control their Reiatsu. Not necessarily their amount of Reiatsu. This is why Rukia's Kido is stronger than Renji's despite the fact Renji has more, and stronger Reiatsu then Rukia.

Basically it isn't referencing amount, it's referencing control. And if one has greater control over their Reiatsu they can enhance their stats more compared to someone who has less control over their Reiatsu. Which supports Arc's interpretation more compared to Rocker's and Damage's.

This entire debate is idiotic and shouldn't be happening, it's needlessly filling the thread with unimportant points.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That doesn’t even make sense really, so only the edge hit Ichigo too? Or after it hit him the Cero decided to peace out and take off into the air ?

Bob please, Ichigo was standing on top of Las Noches, the dome was beneath Ichigo. The Cero was not fired downwards, it was fired at Ichigo. So only the bottom part of the Cero hit Las Noches. The entire Cero did not hit Las Noches, it only grazed it. You see how a lot of the Cero is above Ichigo and the dome.

The "Kido/SP" aspect of that chart isn't referencing one's amount of Reiatsu, it's referencing one's ability to control their Reiatsu, which would include things like Kido since Kido is entirely dependent on one's ability to control their Reiatsu. Not necessarily their amount of Reiatsu. This is why Rukia's Kido is stronger than Renji's despite the fact Renji has more, and stronger Reiatsu then Rukia.

Basically it isn't referencing amount, it's referencing control. And if one has greater control over their Reiatsu they can enhance their stats more compared to someone who has less control over their Reiatsu. Which supports Arc's interpretation more compared to Rocker's and Damage's.

This entire debate is idiotic and shouldn't be happening, it's needlessly filling the thread with unimportant points.

Ima meat ride this cuz Deceived explained it extremely well

 

[Rocker1189]

Considering Zaraki is harmed by far weaker characters consistently, and seems to only function off of his passive durability, this isn't exactly wrong.

So his durability would be below even soi fon's attack and to what level then.

It's entirely baseless that it only refers to Kido when we know for a fact that Zaraki does not have good control over manipulating his spirit energy as he himself concedes to. The scans you sent is just his SP wildly flaring out of his body. Zaraki having a low SP stat does not mean he has no SP, it just means he isn't adept at using/applying it, which is extremely consistent with what is shown.

Then what is he doing here and here and why isnt that factored in his SP stat.

Luckily no one but you claimed that.

I mean..you are claiming that by saying that zaraki does not use SP to attack in that arc so his SP stat is 0.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So his durability would be below even soi fon's attack and to what level then.

Depends on where the scaling gets solidified to.

Then what is he doing here and here and why isnt that factored in his SP stat.

Again Rocker please read my OP. The stats are for the base forms of the characters and I explain why. So the stats are for eyepatch Kenpachi post Ichigo fight. You sent scans of Zaraki taking off his eyepatch.

I mean..you are claiming that by saying that zaraki does not use SP to attack in that arc so his SP stat is 0.

I am not claiming that. Read Deceived's recent post.

 

[Rocker1189]

The "Kido/SP" aspect of that chart isn't referencing one's amount of Reiatsu, it's referencing one's ability to control their Reiatsu, which would include things like Kido since Kido is entirely dependent on one's ability to control their Reiatsu. Not necessarily their amount of Reiatsu. This is why Rukia's Kido is stronger than Renji's despite the fact Renji has more, and stronger Reiatsu then Rukia.

Cool, but we know that Zaraki does not have literally 0 control over his reiatsu. He should have at least a couple of point in it.

And if one has greater control over their Reiatsu they can enhance their stats more compared to someone who has less control over their Reiatsu.

But how does that work with TYBW Zaraki then. Does he still have 0 SP because I am pretty sure his control did not get any higher after his fight with Unohana. Also can I see the non captain stats? Its kinda hard to compare them when I cant see them.