AP Gap Needed to Oneshot

[ProfessorLord]

I think a lot of people are missing the point. Just because there is a 100x AP gap doesn't mean it can't be a fair match up, hax exists, I don't think anyone was really suggesting it but the same circle jerk of the very idea and statement has gone around like five times now.

There needs to be an inherent cutoff point at which a character cannot withstand the AP compared to their durability.

This argument of "well it depends from verse to verse" is kind of stupid, there shouldn't be variability on withstanding a one-shot outside of hax. Superman full out punching someone like The Flash and having him crawl back up from it isn't a feat of him able to crawl back up from attacks 10x his AP gap. It's simple plot induced stupidity.

No human can withstand and stay upright from a blow 10x their strength. For reference, average black belt can punch with 325lbs of force. Absorbing 10x that is 3250lbs of force, equivalent to the bite of a crocodile, the creatures that snap and tear of limbs of various large animals. Now imagine that but directed in the form of a kick or a punch. At those levels, you are losing limbs. That's well in the range of what I would consider a lethal one shot.

Unless there's a logical reason or hax involved, no human character can survive that large of a gap.

 

[Sera_EX]

In all due respect PL, we kinda just moved on from that particular point. I realized that was circlejerk argument so I went back to my premise of not needing a rule for it for the same reason I've said we don't need to keep expanding, changing, and fiddling with rules for years now. We're the only wiki that feels like a damn country that doesn't know what it wants.

If we set a precedent, two months from now in December, we're gonna be changing it again. No one likes excessive restrictions.

 

[Gemmysaur]

This is quite the effort to read. I'm all for making it a case by case basis on the grounds that even people with the exact same physical stats can one-shot the other with a punch to the groin or whatever other weakness.

 

[Andytrenom]

Matt I respect you but it really doesn't look like you are doing anything more than blindly dismissing the suggestion here.

 

[Antvasima]

This suggestion ultimately would transform one aspect of debates into mindless production lines.

That is likely true.

Sera also makes good points. It seems like a bad idea to make rules for every little detail, and then quickly change them when they do not work out.

Versus battles are not my thing, but others like them, so let them have their fun.

 

[Andytrenom]

There should be some level of consistency in how we treat a versus matchup. If in one thread a gap of 5x was considered sufficient enough to one shot character X and in another a gap of 10x was needed to oneshot the same character then that wouldn't really make any sense.

I think a general guideline, if not an outright rule, is indeed required for what constitutes a one shot between two characters closer to each other in AP/Dura

 

[GoldenScorpions]

About Stomps:

If both characters fighting are completely haxless and battle with their fists, legs and weapons, then "AP stomp" could be provided, if A is clearly much stronger than B. However , even then, there shouldn't be a rule. What if the fight takes place near a lake and B can walk on water while A character can't. That gives B a way to win if he drags A in the water. What if A uses fists and B uses a nunchaku? B, while weaker, has range advantage and nunchakus are usually used to confuse the opponent with skilled handling and sudden strikes. Many factors can come into place, which makes creating a general rule not viable

About One-shots:

Say A and B have generally a fair fight, with stats and hax countering one another. Let's say they are both 8-A. However, A has a special technique that reaches 7-B. IF A hits B with that attack, it's obviously a One-shot. But that doesn't mean A will definitely hit B with it. For another example, imagine someone like Neji or Hinata (Naruto), but even deadlier with their Puncture Point striking; let's call him C. If C fights D (both same AP), and C's fighting style is to go straight for the killing blow by point-striking the neck - and he's well-experienced in doing so - that would be a one-shot, despite C and D having the same AP. But again, it doesn't mean C will manage to land his attack if, say, D specializes in evading attacks and shooting projectiles from afar.

Tl;dr, you can't simply make a tag such as "stomp" and "one-shot" into a rule, without considering all the different possible scenarios

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Let me be clear:

It's impossible to define a set limit for a fight to be considered a Stomp / One-Shot.

It is something that varies from fiction to fiction - Nay, character to character. Some characters can survive hits from far stronger people while others can't. Moreover, entirely blocking fights due to AP disparity is stupid. What about hax? Intellect? Skill? Speed? All factors that are being ignored which can give a weaker character the victory.

There is no point on suggesting much less making this rule.

 

[Sera_EX]

Let me just summarize my premise again so we're all on the same page.

1. The objective standards we set belong only in wiki content, our explanation pages, character profiles, powers/abilities pages, categories, templates, revision threads, calculations, etc. anf of course community behavior which said content reflects. Not in versus threads, which are not part of that content, just a pastime.

2. There needs to be fludity in vs threads. They should have some standards of course, but we have plenty as it is. Unless it's causing harm to the community (not just disagreements, mind you), it does not require a rule.

3. Even if we define a standard for gap required to one-shot, like 10x AP, we will most certainly change it in a few months when people start arguing over it again. This has happened many times before, anyone that's been here for a few years knows this. Rules should not be this controversial. Imagine a government that changes the same laws every three months...it would drive you insane.

4. If fun isn't an excuse then you guys would be banned for half the junk you say or post in Fun and Games threads. We don't need fascists ruining everything. We have enough of those manaics in the real world already doing that.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Like I said before, any character withstanding anything greater than 10x force without losing limbs is jut plot induced stupidity.

The only subjectivity we should have is how a character is hit, not how hard they're being hit. If I 10x you in the arm you'll survive, not if I do it to center mass or the head. In that aspect, it would be on a case to case basis.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Matt We are talking AP vs dura here. So the point of characters being able to take hits from people far stronger than themselves doesn't really mean anything here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No it's not.

How about Saint Seiya? Where characters ofte take hits from beings who are numerous orders of magnitude above them and survive? It's not PIS at this point, it's just a feature of the series.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Matthew it varying from fiction to fiction is obvious, the purpose of battles is to umbrella them under a uniform system under our real world physics. We can definitely determine it by looking at ranges and defining what would be a one-shot. (Like my crocodile vs human example)

 

[GoldenScorpions]

How often are real world physics even applicable to fiction? There certainly are cases where they can, but I doubt it's as easy when we start getting in as soon as Tier 8 or 7

 

[Sera_EX]

That's the problem. We shouldn't be using real world physics as some form of absolute model when physics are ignored in fiction 99.9% of the time. Attack Potency completely ignores the laws of physics. There is no such thing as a 7-A hitting someone with the force to destroy a mountain and it not even wipe out a building. Or Zamasu attacking with Universe busting attacks (evidenced by harming those with Universe level durability) and it only wrecking small parts of a city. However we ignore that because the majority of fiction ignores it

 

[Andytrenom]

@Matt if it isn't PIS then their dura just isn't orders of magnitude below them like their AP is, unless it was the result of something like regen, immortality etc.

 

[ProfessorLord]

The only laws we ignore are the conservation of mass and energy. Everything else is fair game; our ratings of tiers are based on real world physics. Just because it doesn't make sense doesnt mean we can't calculate it.

These are already clarified on attack potency and destructive capacity pages, by the way.

 

[Kepekley23]

The "real world physics" argument is a blatant Schrodinger's VBW. Let's stop using calcs guyyyysss, how about that? Physics don't matter unless they upgrade the character.

 

[Kepekley23]

The entire system is built on real world physics. The only topic where physics can't be used as an argument here is the AoE Fallacy. Everything else is, and should, be subject to them with rare exceptions.

Unless you want to install a CharacterRant anarchy where calcs don't matter, only what people eyeball the feat at, and physics are only valid if they boost your favorite character. How about that?

 

[Andytrenom]

@Kep Assuming a character can only survive the same level of injuries as a real world human, would you say the difference between a 10-B and a 9-C can serve as AP gap needed to oneshot in this hypothetical scenario?

 

[ProfessorLord]

Amen.

On that note, this would mean agreeing with Bambus proposal and setting an average one-shot for humanoi characters, than for giant characters.

 

[Sera_EX]

That's still a problem. VSBW comes from a very scientifically hardheaded staff that takes calculations and scientific principles to levels beyond even OBD, something we're mocked for all over the internet. Not because we're using science, but because we incorporate to the exact opposite in the most objective way possible and then literally treat it as if its absolute fact (such as saying surviving a hit of 100x times your listed dura is illogical. Not tanking, or withstanding, merely surviving without being insta-killed. It's only illogical from a realistic standpoint). Everywhere else in the vs debating realm, the standard goes like this:

Everything in fiction works as it does in real life unless proven otherwise.

This means that fire has the properties of fire (combustion, burning, etc.) until proven otherwise. The planet Earth functions as our Earth does, until proven otherwise. Regular human beings are ordinary humans in a verse, until proven otherwise.

See the common theme here? Everything works as intended FromSoftware style until proven otherwise. Fiction is malleable, flexible, creative, expressive, and unique. There is no objective standard universal across all of them. We can make a system with our own parameters and tier fictional characters accordingly, but we cannot act like everything will be consistent. That is not possible. So what do we do? We let the people decide where exceptions can be made and why.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Kep Assuming a character can only survive the same level of injuries as a real world human, would you say the difference between a 10-B and a 9-C can serve as AP gap needed to oneshot in this hypothetical scenario?

Considering the justification for being 9-C according to the Peak Human page includes being able to one-shot normal humans, yes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Sera continues to be right. This doesn't need to be a rule.

 

[Sera_EX]

"The whole system is based on real world physics."

False. Only Tiers 11 through 3. Tier 2 is where theories start to play and 1-A and above is physically impossible. (Hence why it was originally considered "metaphysical" a.k.a "meta-physics"). Almost every single power does not even exist, so no the system (which encompasses every aspect of our discussions), it not based solely on real physics.

 

[Kepekley23]

Take "physics" out of that and leave "real world" and it's 100% true. Add it again and it's "only" 99%. The whole system is based on the real world. 1-A and above are not transcendant of philosophy as we know it, for one.

 

[Kepekley23]

> That's still a problem. VSBW comes from a very scientifically hardheaded staff that takes calculations and scientific principles to levels beyond even OBD, something we're mocked for all over the internet.

The OBD's calcs are a gold standard, something that we lack here. I believe we should use their calc and science system as a role model.

I could honestly not care any less about what other forums think of us. /r/CharacterRant believes that VS Battles Wiki is the worst VS Debating forum ever and consistently insults our staff. If we need to bow down to what other people think about us then say goodbye to a lot of things and people, mainly Dimensional Tiering.

 

[Sera_EX]

Let's to back to my original premise, which has yet to be broken. We do not need a rule for this. Never have; never will. Keep adding standards and rules and we'll repeat this cycle a few months from now when someone else goes "Why <insert AP gap> doesn't qualify as a one shot." That's because if it's that disagreeable, it doesn't need to be a standard at all.

 

[Andytrenom]

It doesn't need to be an inflexible rule that needs to be followed in every single possible situation without question. But i still think there should be a general agreement as to what constitutes a oneshot in a standard situation where one character isn't capable of getting back up after recieving injuries that would kill a real life person.

 

[Kepekley23]

About the OP, whatever suits the majority because I only came here to reinforce a necessity in this wiki and prevent a horrible system from taking over a working one.

 

[Sera_EX]

And what system is that? Because no one suggested a change to the system. Versus threads are not part of the wiki's content as I said about four times now.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

I agree with Kep

 

[Sera_EX]

Seriously, what part of that is so hard to understand? It's like a school making rules and regulations about things that don't involve the school or student body at hand, it's ridiculous. Rules and regulations only need to exist to protect our tier system, our pages, and our community. That's it. If you want to make something saying "it is generally accepted that 10x a character's durability will one shot them" is fine, but it better be generally accepted and it better not be a rule. As Dragon said, our only rule regarding stomps is they cannot be added to profiles. Why? Because that affects our content.

 

[DMUA]

Actually, as per an AP standard based on 9-Cs one-shoting normal humans, don't all people have 10-A dura, I think? I remember I once heard a guy saying otherwise we'd be TKO'd by getting smacked by a oar, but, eh, I haven't looked into it.

 

[Kepekley23]

Stuff like characters being able to survive hits that are hundreds of times stronger than what they can normally tank being an ability or durability. That has a name, it's called Plot-Induced Stupidity and it's why most normal humans in fiction survive attacks from stronger foes despite being obviously vastly weaker.

Or trying to implement a "science does not debunk ratings" system, where physics only serve to upgrade the character rather than downgrade them. It's not what was directly said here, but it's what it would lead to.

Again, I disagree with a strict cap for a one-shot gap. I only agree with a rule of thumb standard.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Sera.....hmmm.....I actually kinda agree with you. It should be an agreement not a law.

 

[DMUA]

Stuff like characters being able to survive hits that are hundreds of times stronger than what they can normally tank. That has a name, it's called Plot-Induced Stupidity and it's why most normal humans survive attacks from stronger foes despite being obviously vastly weaker.

Or it's just Auhors don't do math and normal humans generally just survive stuff they shouldn't, consistently to the point it's feats and not PIS.

I'll agree, it shouldn't be a strict standard, it should be "well it could be this but fiction is fiction so there isn't any solid way to tell"

 

[Kepekley23]

> Or it's just Auhors don't do math and normal humans generally just survive stuff they shouldn't.

99% of the time it's an outlier, and if it happens often it's PIS because every single other time you see them they will be tier 10.

 

[Kepekley23]

And yeah, Writer Induced Stupidity is also a thing.

 

[Sera_EX]

No one suggested otherwise, you misread that, but no one said we should ignore physics when it comes to downgrading.