AP Gap Needed to Oneshot

[Arrogant_Schmuck]

I wish I could come up with a better reason to support Weekly's side beyond not wanting more of my favorite characters to get more losses because of matches that are "simply one-sided."

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not exactly. As said earlier in this thread, it is largely contextual for what a stomp is. AP isn't the only thing.

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

I mean we still do 2-A vs 2-B matches

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

2-B Vs 2-A sounds very stompy since that's a countable Infinity difference.

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

Yet I have one of my match concluded.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

I think that despite Ant's general lack of interest towards VS threads he has been the one making the most sense on this topic. Children surviving hits from athletes would be completely situational for example. Yeah, if Emelianenko stomps on a child's hand it will certainly survive that hit, just with it's hand bones completely and utterly shattered. But if the athlete strikes anywhere lethal then that kid is certainly dead.

There's been a lot of arguments against what he said that have been entirely situational and have far too quickly disregarded that a general rule would likely apply to most cases. Probably the worst offender of these has to be that "Humans survive street level attacks all of the time IRL."

I feel like this statement neither takes our own rules into consideration, which state that death isn't the only way of victory, nor does it take into account the circumstances of pretty much any of these "real life" situations. Some dude may still be alive after getting ran over by a car, sure, but he still ends up lying on the ground, screaming with many of his bones broken and bleeding internally if not externally. "But I totally survived that, amirite?" Nevermind, that literally mere minutes after that these people get outside help from an ambulance that's hauling countless equipment designed to keep the dude's shattered body alive, and even further from half a dozen people at the hospital. "But I still totally survived that hit, amirite you guys?" No, no you didn't. You got absolutely rekt my dude. Sit down. Well... you already are, I mean, you got run over by a car.

In general, just try not to pit "children" against "athletes" unless you have a damn good reason for it and it should be fine.

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

So I don't think just because the AP gap is massive, we can consider that match a stomp. We still have haxes too you know.

 

[Captain_Torch]

The problem here is that humans in general have a lot of weak points. A human can oneshot the same human if he hits in the right place. Anime/manga/comic characters are shown to be able to withstand a lot more proportionally. For example 10 megaton characters can often give a good fight to a 100 megaton character, even if the result is clear cut. Most battles inverse can vary between different tiers, so applying human physique doesn't really apply here. I'm mostly with Raven on this one.

EDIT: Not to mention the fact that the stronger the tier, the bigger is the gap required to stomp. A wall level character might be able to stomp a street level character, but a solar system level character can fight someone who is more than 100x stronger

 

[Frieza_force_soldier_100]

Yeah, there is more to a fight than AP. There is speed (if unequalized), durability (glass canons and stone walls are a thing), hax, versitality with powers and abilities, intelligence, experience, and skill. These are very important when considering matches between 2B characters, since, much like MFTL+, 2B is a very broad category, seeing how it starts from 1000 universes to any finite number. AP isn't the only thing to consider when determining if a battle will be a stomp. In matches with large AP gaps, it may be a good idea to unequalize speed if the weaker character can speedblitz another. Huh, I wonder how a match like that would go. A character who can speedblitz another character who can one shot them. I actually have such a matchup planned sometime in the future.

 

[Kaltias]

@Raven

A heads up, being in the same tier and being in the same ballpark AP wise are two different things.

A baseline 4-C is closer in AP to a baseline High 4-C than a baseline 4-B is when compared to someone in the GigaFoe, for example.

About the thread, there are honestly too many factors to slap a value on this. Even ignoring hax (and speed because it's always equal) skill is also important for haxless fight.

If I had to fight a martial artist who is physically as strong as me, he'd beat me easily despite close stats, by virtue of being a better fighter

 

[Myriadofmemes]

@Captain Anime logic wouldn't really apply here. Such franchises would commonly be motivated by real life reasons when they depict combat such as censorship and fights made to target younger audience. These sort of scenarios wouldn't apply to any verse equalized fight like the ones we have here. As long as a character has a throat, it can be slit. As long as a character breathes, then they have lungs and those can be punctured. Unless the verse specifies a reason for why these things don't happen of course.

 

[Kaltias]

Guys don't derail please

 

[Andytrenom]

We are only talking about how much higher someone's AP has to be than another's durability in order to knock them unconscious right? Not what makes a fight between two characters fair in general. If that is true i Don't see what the point is of bringing up hax here.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Andy Yes, the point is that between two haxless characters, what is the AP gap that would make their fight a stomp?

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

@Weekly

Ah, I get what you mean now. If both are haxless then in that case, I think probably about 2-5x

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Except it is never that simple. AP alone doesn't guarantee stomp. So that's why other points are brought up, because the premise itself is flawed.

Example. Professor X is essentially a normal human. Putting him against something like 8-B would be considered a stomp, right?

Yes, but only in Professor's favor, as he can simply mindhax them away. A stomp is not dictated by AP alone except in extreme cases (such as being higher dimensional or outerversal or what have you).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

A stomp is easily defined as a fight in which one character has no godly chance of winning and will get immediately obliterated- no fight is had, one character insta-kills the other and that is it.

5x is a rather arbitrary value to put on that idea of "one-shot" and it doesn't fit anything we've seen. Conversely, a character with 1/5th of their opponent's durability can still harm that character.

 

[Andytrenom]

Can we use the difference between a 10-B and a 9-C as a basis for the gap?

 

[Kaltias]

Yeah but that's a debate about haxless fights.

7-B Homulilly can stomp some 2-As, but that obviously isn't because of AP being in her favor

 

[WeeklyBattles]

That would be a gap of 5.5

 

[Myriadofmemes]

@Andy That is exactly what I thought, which is why I found this thread to be moving in an extremely odd fashion as people continued to raise entirely situational arguments that would vary from thread to thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Gap between Normal Human and peak human is 7.5x actually. 300 Joules / 40 Joules = 7.5

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

I can give example. Jill Presto is a 9-A that tends to stomp anything below 1-A

 

[Eganergo]

If this rules only apply to haxless people then it doesn't matter i guess. I said giogio get stomped is only an example. His dura is only city block+, but many people in universe lv that has ap many time of his dura can't even touch him. If this rule apply to everyone then my example, giogio will get ap stomped.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

7.5 is acceptable. It is a very decisive victory, mind, but I wouldn't call it a stomp. I don't think it should be done, if both parties are haxless. But that doesn't mean it inherently breaks our rules.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Andy
That is exactly what I thought, which is why I found this thread to be moving in an extremely odd fashion as people continued to raise entirely situational arguments that would vary from thread to thread.

That's the point, it changes from thread to thread. This thread makes the mistake of trying to find some cover-all that doesn't exist.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Weekly maybe renaming the thread to "gap needed for a one shot" would be better?

 

[Myriadofmemes]

@Bambu

I strongly doubt that there's any rule that we have that casts a net that's wide enough to cover literally every possible situation. That's the very reason why there's a specific rule for High 1-A's and 0's. Yet we still have rules anyways. This is just another ruling that will help the wiki and bring it to an even higher standard. The fact is, there are more then enough situations where this would apply. Even if there's hax involved.

Take your example of Xavier. Now put him against some higher tier character that resists his mind manipulation. You're once again left with a frail, paraplegic old man that's about to get utterly stomped. I'd call a fight like that a total stomp.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Again, that's the point. There isn't a rule and there shouldn't be one. Because this is all situational and trying to make a rule to fit every situation is an absurd idea.

Yes. Obviously. And at that point one is expected to use common sense rather than simply entering a thread and saying "AP DIFFERENCE OF 5x ITS A STOMP CLOSE THIS LUL" because that's what I see happening constantly. So yes. Xavier vs an 8-B who resists his mind hax is a stomp. Obviously. But if you're putting Xavier against a person higher in his own tier within reason, then what makes it a stomp? Is it a stomp even if the character fighting him resists his hax and has, say, a 2x?

Assigning arbitrary values to something this important is not a reasonable thing to do. So if you'd like to suggest a barrier at which point a character automatically one-shots, you'd better have a damned good reason for it aside from "Well I think this is good".

 

[QrowBarr]

Probably should be done case-by-case.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

Yes it's a clear stomp if Xavier, a helpless old man, doesn't have his telepathy. Even it's as low as a 2x difference. You'd need some pretty extraordinary circumstances to beat someone who's explicitly vastly stronger then you AND you don't have any clear advantages over them. I'd call a fight like that spiteful.

EDIT: Keep in mind that AP stomp is and will be a thing, rule or no rule. An actual rule would simply help clarify things for new and old members thus being generally more helpful then harmful.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think how a character handles injuries also factors into what is required to one shot him. Some characters will die if they recieve injuries equivalent to what would be fatal for a normal human whereas some characters would be able to fight just fine while having a hole dug through their stomach.

One isn't harder to injure than the other but they still require a greater amount of effort to be put down for good.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Myriad A stomp, understand, is a match in which literally no fight is had because one character is so laughably superior to the other that they instantly win. A person twice as strong as me isn't going to instantly kill me with a single hit, and while, yes, I'm going to get the floor wiped with me i mean when do i not, that wouldn't be a stomp. Just a decisive victory. And, yes, possibly spiteful, that goes into context not provided.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

The definition of a stomp would also vary from fight to fight. Being killed in one hit would certainly qualify for a stomp in many cases and you'd be surprised what someone who's twice as strong as you can do to you, let alone five or seven times.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Keep in mind that AP stomp is and will be a thing, rule or no rule. An actual rule would simply help clarify things for new and old members thus being generally more helpful then harmful.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The definition of a stomp would also vary from fight to fight. Being killed in one hit would certainly qualify for a stomp in many cases and you'd be surprised what someone who's twice as strong as you can do to you, let alone five or seven times.

Well. More like there are different types of stomps. But I do believe you need to understand the difference between a "stomp" and a "decisive victory". We have rules for the former, while we depend on the latter.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Our rules for what a 'decisive victory' is are shaky at best

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not exactly. Since it is largely based on context (a fact this thread blatantly ignores, mind you), a decisive victory is a scenario in which one character defeats another with the other having some form of a chance at incapping.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

If you already understand that VS threads have a clear goal, i.e death or incapacitating, then I'm not sure what we're arguing about. Going back to Ant's example of a child vs athlete the child would have absolutely no chance of inflicting such harm onto the trained athlete. At best the kid could give the guy a good kick in the nuts but even that isn't necessarily going to work. Making the guy feel pain, even if it is substantial, or giving him a slight bruise isn't putting you anywhere near the necessary damage needed to incap someone. On the other hand the athlete, assuming that he's some sort of psychopath or bloodlusted, can literally rip a small child apart.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I think the Normal Human vs Peak Human was a better exemple. A normal human, if as fast and skilled, could win, albeit unlikely