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I think that a 1.5 - 2x rating for scaling chains is ideal imo. Since if you're hit in the head with that kind of force, you're probably dead in a single blow.
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AP Gap Needed to Oneshot
- Thread starter WeeklyBattles
- Start date
- Status
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Yeah I think Wright may have started confusing scaling with vs threads at this point. If your character took hits from someone 10x stronger then they simply scale to them unless it's an outlier. However that doesn't translate to somehow overcoming a 10x gap in a vs thread.
Again, we already have rules about AP. But they are far too lax and become inapplicable in many situations, especially when the larger tiers are involved like High 6-A. This is the reason for the rise of the unwritten 5x "rule" to begin with. Some sort of a definition is necessary.
Again, we already have rules about AP. But they are far too lax and become inapplicable in many situations, especially when the larger tiers are involved like High 6-A. This is the reason for the rise of the unwritten 5x "rule" to begin with. Some sort of a definition is necessary.
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That doesn't apply to fiction. We need to get our head out of the grass and start using the feats of characters as Wright suggested. If they've withstood a 5x gap then it isn't a stomp, if they didn't then it's definitely a stomp. We should reward characters with more feats and those that don't shouldn't be punished/downplayed but should be considered incapable of doing so until proven otherwise. At the same time that doesn't mean something like Galactus smacking Captain America across the galaxy and Cap surviving is anything short of a massive outlier.
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Well, if the 4x weaker character has literally no advantages then we can probably count it as a stomp anyways.Mr. Bambu said:
Not to mention, finding a character who is 4x weaker then they're favorite and less haxed then they're favorite would take a lot of searching. Particularly if they're favorite is 6-A or something.
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@Sera
You are describing scaling.
You are describing scaling.
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But we agree. I'm arguing that for our current rules on what constitutes a one-shot would change the ratings of a lot of characters. Same issue, different angle.Myriadofmemes said:
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The gap for a one-shot affects scaling too, dude. Not just versus threads.Myriadofmemes said:
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No I'm not.
To explain what I literally just told someone in another related conversation.
"Scale in dura, not AP. There's such a thing as tank characters. Characters with higher durability than their attack potency. That doesn't mean the dura has to be at least a tier higher as well."
To explain what I literally just told someone in another related conversation.
"Scale in dura, not AP. There's such a thing as tank characters. Characters with higher durability than their attack potency. That doesn't mean the dura has to be at least a tier higher as well."
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If x character has shown to be able to survive an attack from y, x's durability would just scale to y's attack
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@Sera
Yes you are. Scaling doesn't need to occur for AP as well as dura. It can only be about durability but it's still scaling. If a character from a verse can withstand hits from another character then they scale unless it's an outlier. It's not a "Resistance to getting one-shot" it's just scaling.
@Wright
Sure, and it's in verse scaling.
Yes you are. Scaling doesn't need to occur for AP as well as dura. It can only be about durability but it's still scaling. If a character from a verse can withstand hits from another character then they scale unless it's an outlier. It's not a "Resistance to getting one-shot" it's just scaling.
@Wright
Sure, and it's in verse scaling.
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To support this example, I give you Kharn the Betrayer. A 4-B with durability higher than his AP. (Depending on who you ask anyways, Kharn's complicated)Sera Loveheart said:
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What other scaling exists other than in-verse scaling?
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@Sera
You seem to be implying otherwise.
"We need to get our head out of the grass and start using the feats of characters as Wright suggested. "
Feats will decide the ratings for a character, but that's as far as they go. We can't use them to decide individual "one-shot ranges" from them because they are, by definition, feats for scaling. If someone with a rating of 5 survived an attack from a character with a rating of 30 in their verse then they scale, unless there is a good reason for them to not to. However, just because this character has been seen to survive a 6x attack with their durability doesn't mean that they can also survive an attack from a character rated as 180 in a VS thread. That's not how that works.
You seem to be implying otherwise.
"We need to get our head out of the grass and start using the feats of characters as Wright suggested. "
Feats will decide the ratings for a character, but that's as far as they go. We can't use them to decide individual "one-shot ranges" from them because they are, by definition, feats for scaling. If someone with a rating of 5 survived an attack from a character with a rating of 30 in their verse then they scale, unless there is a good reason for them to not to. However, just because this character has been seen to survive a 6x attack with their durability doesn't mean that they can also survive an attack from a character rated as 180 in a VS thread. That's not how that works.
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Anyways, going to school. Let me know how this wraps up.
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Let me get this straight. What you are saying is, for example, if a character has a 10 TeraFoe dura feat, but only baseline attack potency, they could be one shotted by someone with a 10 TeraFoe AP feat merely because the former has less AP?
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No, it's more like, if they were hit by a 100 TeraFoe attack they would get one shottedSera Loveheart said:
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No? When did anyone suggest that? We are currently discussing a range for AP one shots. That involves an attacker's AP and a defender's dura.
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A gap between AP and durability required to one-shot also varies. A character can be hit with more times their durability and not exactly be one-shotted. Surely not a mere 5x.
Final Form Frieza was more than 5x stronger than Vegeta in both AP and dura and yet he tortured Vegeta without Vegeta exploding upon impact. You can say "he was being casual/holding back" all you want, that can't be used as an excuse for everything it doesn't change the premise that characters can withstand a bit more than their actual durability but on VSBW, people take things way too literally, like a Star buster one shotting a Large Planet buster. That's why I said there needs to be more flexibility with these things.
Final Form Frieza was more than 5x stronger than Vegeta in both AP and dura and yet he tortured Vegeta without Vegeta exploding upon impact. You can say "he was being casual/holding back" all you want, that can't be used as an excuse for everything it doesn't change the premise that characters can withstand a bit more than their actual durability but on VSBW, people take things way too literally, like a Star buster one shotting a Large Planet buster. That's why I said there needs to be more flexibility with these things.
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@Sera
Scaling is your and Wright's point. We are not engaging in a discussing about scaling but trying to determine the point at which a decisive victory turns into an AP stomp because of the difference between the AP of an attacker and the the durability of a helpless defender. The other factors are irrelevant to the subject at hand this has been thoroughly discussed already. A character tanking 5x their own AP is irrelevant because the defender's own AP is not a factor.
Being one-shot does not necessarily require someone to explode. Being incapped is considered winning on VSBW and incaps can easily be done with a 2-3x difference. Again, the point of this thread is discussing when a decisive victory obtained through AP becomes an AP stomp. Vegeta was being ragdolled and had already lost the fight and would be considered a grade-A AP stomp.
Scaling is your and Wright's point. We are not engaging in a discussing about scaling but trying to determine the point at which a decisive victory turns into an AP stomp because of the difference between the AP of an attacker and the the durability of a helpless defender. The other factors are irrelevant to the subject at hand this has been thoroughly discussed already. A character tanking 5x their own AP is irrelevant because the defender's own AP is not a factor.
Being one-shot does not necessarily require someone to explode. Being incapped is considered winning on VSBW and incaps can easily be done with a 2-3x difference. Again, the point of this thread is discussing when a decisive victory obtained through AP becomes an AP stomp. Vegeta was being ragdolled and had already lost the fight and would be considered a grade-A AP stomp.
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The whole premise of my argument is:
We do not need a rule defining this.
Everything else was tangents, I realize that now, reading back over it. So my mistake on that. I'm sorry but adding more rules doesn't solve anything. That's like thinking "outlawing drugs" stops people from using them. I'm not saying we don't need rules either but we have them for everything as it is.
We do not need a rule defining this.
Everything else was tangents, I realize that now, reading back over it. So my mistake on that. I'm sorry but adding more rules doesn't solve anything. That's like thinking "outlawing drugs" stops people from using them. I'm not saying we don't need rules either but we have them for everything as it is.
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@Myriad
Sera has a point with taking feats into consideration. Just because a character has taken a hit of a certain level doesn't mean they can just shrug off attacks of that level, we have to take into account what condition they were left in. If Person A's best durability feat is shrugging off Baseline 7-A, it can be safely assumed that they could take x5 that from Person B. If Person C was able to keep fighting after taking that same hit but was severly injured x2 should be enough to incap them.
I dunno if a rule can really be made for this as it seems to be a case by case thing. If someone believes a match to be an AP one shot, wait for others knowledgeable on the characters/feats in question to weigh in on the subject.
Sera has a point with taking feats into consideration. Just because a character has taken a hit of a certain level doesn't mean they can just shrug off attacks of that level, we have to take into account what condition they were left in. If Person A's best durability feat is shrugging off Baseline 7-A, it can be safely assumed that they could take x5 that from Person B. If Person C was able to keep fighting after taking that same hit but was severly injured x2 should be enough to incap them.
I dunno if a rule can really be made for this as it seems to be a case by case thing. If someone believes a match to be an AP one shot, wait for others knowledgeable on the characters/feats in question to weigh in on the subject.
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We already have the rule, we are trying further clarify it.
AP stomps are a thing already. However the rule, as it is currently worded, is lacking. It does not properly represent the larger tiers where the difference between baseline and high-end can be hundreds, even thousand of times. The 5x unspoken rule didn't come out of nowhere, it came from the necessity to address these larger tiers.
AP stomps are a thing already. However the rule, as it is currently worded, is lacking. It does not properly represent the larger tiers where the difference between baseline and high-end can be hundreds, even thousand of times. The 5x unspoken rule didn't come out of nowhere, it came from the necessity to address these larger tiers.
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This rule idea is one of the worst things I've ever heard suggested on this website. No thank you.
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I mean seriously, why do we even need this rule?
If it's a stomp then we'll most likely know. Plus AP isn't the only thing that matters. You can be infinitely stronger than your opponent but can still get haxstomped for being haxless.
If it's a stomp then we'll most likely know. Plus AP isn't the only thing that matters. You can be infinitely stronger than your opponent but can still get haxstomped for being haxless.
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Stomp matches are a rule? How sad. Spite matches I understand a rule being against that, as there is ill-intent there, but stomps can be accidental, hell easily so here where basically everything needs to be equalized unless there's hax involved.
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Our deal is that we cannot add stomp matches to profiles.
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People also must remember that VS Debating are just for fun.
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@Sound
This is specifically in the case where the characters are haxless or something similar.
Fun is what it should be but we still get fandom wars, spite battles etc.
This is specifically in the case where the characters are haxless or something similar.
Fun is what it should be but we still get fandom wars, spite battles etc.
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We have to get at least 7 votes for a character to win lose, or for the fight to be inconclusive.
Why not a vote for whether or not a battle is too one-sided, AKA stomp?
Why not a vote for whether or not a battle is too one-sided, AKA stomp?
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Then the gap is depended on which tier is it. For example: 8-A that's 5x stronger than a baseline 8-A =/= High 4-C that's 5x stronger than a baseline High 4-CAnonymousBlank said:
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True enough. Thats why I argued on a case by case basis.
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This suggestion ultimately would transform one aspect of debates into mindless production lines.
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