AP Gap Needed to Oneshot

[Overlord775]

Does any serie even make a battle with a 10x gap look fair ?

and if yes, does this happen often enough in fiction to have to build an entire system around it ?

 

[RavenSupreme]

If you already understand that VS threads have a clear goal, i.e death or incapacitating, then I'm not sure what we're arguing about. Going back to Ant's example of a child vs athlete the child would have absolutely no chance of inflicting such harm onto the trained athlete. At best the kid could give the guy a good kick in the nuts but even that isn't necessarily going to work. Making the guy feel pain, even if it is substantial, or giving him a slight bruise isn't putting you anywhere near the necessary damage needed to incap someone. On the other hand the athlete, assuming that he's some sort of psychopath or bloodlusted, can literally rip a small child apart.

Which is already a problem.

In VSbattles we dont treat durability as something which stops at vital parts.

A Kid can down a grown man with a kick in a certain region. But in fiction we dont distinguish between such things.

Hence looking at the debate from a RL perspective is not applicable.

 

[Sera_EX]

AP advantage means nothing in a wiki that cares more about hax than anything else, with the exception of battles between characters with little to no hax, obviously. The AP advantage required to one-shot someone varies in fiction. That's a fact and if we try to define it based on examples we clearly have no concrete evidence of, and only are using our own opinion/limited understanding, than we end up looking pretentious as hell. Now what Weekly said isn't wrong, it seems a rule of 5x does exist (it's even the rule of thumb on FC/OC), but I strongly believe no such precedent should exist. We need to stop being such hardasses and start treating fights with more flexibility to make them...well, fun. Our vs battles are already restricted more than any other vs debating platform out there.

1. Significant AP advantage.

2. Unequalized Speed

3. Hax-Stomps

4. Battles involving characters from "opposing fandoms" to prevent flame wars.

And then some.

The more we restrict these vs battles, which exist solely for entertainment, the more people will inevitably retire from them and they'll get boring (I personally think they are already boring).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

5x is just what is passed around as the rule. Not the actual rule. I dunno about FC/OC, I'm speaking specifically of this place. That said, I agree. No rule should exist.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

We don't treat durability as something which stops at vital parts, sure. But we do treat vital parts as vital parts so we very much distinguish between a kick to a blocking hand and a stab to the heart. Which is why I don't see the merit of the "weak points" argument.

The point is that a kid can not down, knockout or otherwise incapacitate a grown human, let alone one at peak performance even if it strikes a vital part. At least I'm not aware of this happening. It's at this sort of an AP gap that a stomp should likely be called.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

@Sera

Fun is entirely subjective and varies from person to person. For example, what you described as "fun" made me shudder in disgust as I imagined the tenth Goku vs Naruto thread. No thanks. I'm quite more interested in discontinuing vs threads all together and sticking strictly to cataloging characters then turning everything into a shitshow.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

^ what

 

[Overlord775]

Does any serie even make a battle with a 10x gap look fair ?
and if yes, does this happen often enough in fiction to have to build an entire system around it ?

^

 

[Myriadofmemes]

Fun should not dictate the rules of VS debating.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Fun should not dictate the rules of VS debating.

I was more referring to the "we should just dismantle vs debating" thing lol.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll need to get some sleep now, but I kind of feel like there are circled arguments at this point. Sera does make a good point though; Vs Threads are just for fun and nothing else.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

As in, no vs debating is preferable to VS debating with little to no rules.

 

[Sera_EX]

You misinterpret what I said, although I said it quite clearly. Goku vs. Naruto? Goku is immensely stronger than Naruto. We're talking about a Low 2-C vs. A 5-B.... I never said I was okay with that. And if we go by SSJ Goku and EoS Naruto we still have a massive AP stomp. No, we clearly need rules and I never suggested otherwise, but the solution is not "moar rules!" We have plenty. Enough is enough.

And yes, vs battles are for fun. Just for fun. They don't change anything about how the tiering of the characters work. The objectivity we use to determine the system that indexes our characters should not go beyond the content revisions and management of the wiki's content, which vs. threads are not part of. But it's common sense that, for example, a High 4-C full powered SSJ Goku one shots a 5-B EoS Naruto. The argument here is about a mere five times AP advantage. High 4-C is well above being five times even high-end 5-B.

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

@Myriad

Lemme sum things up. You guys wanna have a rule that if the AP gap is too big, it will be deemed as a stomp match automatically. Is that true?

Also sry for bad English.

 

[Sera_EX]

It would, and is, the argument is how high does the gap need to be in order to be considered a one-shot, and thus a stomp.

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

@Sera

Is hax included here or no?

 

[Sera_EX]

I presume not.

 

[Kaltias]

Hax is not included as durability negation bypasses dura (duh).

Existence Erasure kills a non resistant 3-A just the same as a non resistant 10-C.

This is about how hard you need to punch in order to one shot someone

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

I don't think this rule should be included as members will most likely know whether is it a stomp match.

 

[Wokistan]

It is possible to one shot someone with far less than 5x AP with blows to the correct area. There's a reason that a blow to the neck is considered lethal force where I live by law.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I do not think there should be a 5x stomp rule or whatever x stomp rule. A vs match depends on other factors other than AP. Each case is different.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

What about characters whose tiers come from one-shotting other characters? Going by your rules, Rose Quartz would be High 6-B, possibly 6-A rather than just High 6-B.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I never said that we cannot get another tier via stomping someone else. I am just saying that there are many factors to consider

 

[Kaltias]

I do not think there should be a 5x stomp rule or whatever x stomp rule. A vs match depends on other factors other than AP. Each case is different.

This is about the AP gap needed to one shot.

It's not about the "AP needed to stomp".

"AP needed to stomp" is not a thing and it will never be, because other factors are involved.

One shot via AP is indeed a thing, this thread is trying to find out which gap should be considered one shot territory

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

I do not think there should be a 5x stomp rule or whatever x stomp rule. A vs match depends on other factors other than AP. Each case is different.

This is what I want to say as well.

 

[The_Calaca]

This wiki goes on a case-by-case basis for most things so I don't know where is the problem here. In most vs debates the discusion about AP varies. The better example I can remember now is Sage Naruto. Many vs threads has been closed due to Naruto one-shoting a 600 megatons character but that's in series. If we apply that feat following a standard rule Naruto should be at least High 7-A.

All the matches are situational. IIRC the gap needed to blitz is 10x and that doesn't work the same here than in other verse. A character can be 2x stronger and faster and yet APstomp and blitzstomp the other character with no effor. The best thing we can do is study case-by-case like with most factors instead of writing a rule about X character being 10x stronger than Y and going with that logic he'll AP stomp him.

Altough that goes to characters with hax enough to turn the battle on their side. In a fight with haxless characters we'll need to determine the AP gap but that's still doesn't make it a stomp.

X is a character with 10 megatons of force and Y has 100. The difference is pretty clear so is an AP stomp. But wait, X has survived attacks from 200megatons characters altough pretty damaged. Well that's a thing to consider. Has Y fought with characters 10x weaker than him? That's another thing to discuss but even if Y has a solid win there's a discusion to make.

Sorry if it's confusing. I'm trying to order my ideas about this.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

Lemme sum things up. You guys wanna have a rule that if the AP gap is too big, it will be deemed as a stomp match automatically. Is that true?

We already have that rule regardless. We are simply trying to further clarify where a victory turns into a stomp in regards to AP. Again, any other factors can and are reviewed in each individual thread.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I never said that we cannot get another tier via stomping someone else. I am just saying that there are many factors to consider

But she's currently just High 6-B because we assumed she was 55 times above baseline. Going by your logic, the idea that the one-shot gap varies considerably from verse to verse, she should be 'At least High 6-B, possibly 6-A' as a 5x over baseline gap is still High 6-B while another possible one-shot gap, (like 10x for example) would be 6-A. Going by your logic, her tier should be changed and I'm sure she's not the only example.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

The question is this. Has the character survived hits from someone 5x stronger? If no, AP stomp. If yes, not a stomp. (This is ignoring other factors of course)

It should be a general rule that: if a character has no way to get past a 5x AP gap, then the character who is 5x stronger stomps. Not that hard guys.

 

[Schnee_One]

I mean we still do 2-A vs 2-B matches

Those are Hax fights though

That's not really a comparison

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree that we should not have a rule for this and that it needs to be evaluated case-by-case. Honestly, these AP rules can be very abused. Let's say we do have a 5x gap stomp, people can easily make haxless fights where the character they want to win has an over 4x gap and call it decisive. Which at times I feel is a way for people to excuse generally unfair match-ups if I may be so blunt.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

It depends on what part of the body is struct. If it's something like the head, it can be as little as 1.5 - 2x. More durable parts? 3-5X

 

[Sera_EX]

@Wright

While I agree, the problem is "taking hits from someone 5x stronger than you", is outlierish to some.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

There is an issue with these gaps. At times we end up with many stone wall characters. Like High 7-C's with 7-B or higher Durability and such. That won't bode well.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I agree that we should not have a rule for this and that it needs to be evaluated case-by-case. Honestly, these AP rules can be very abused. Let's say we do have a 5x gap stomp, people can easily make haxless fights where the character they want to win has an over 4x gap and call it decisive. Which at times I feel is a way for people to excuse generally unfair match-ups if I may be so blunt.

Going by our current rules someone could claim stomp at a 5x gap where their favorite character is losing and turn around and say the difference is merely decisive when they're favorite is winning.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

^ Happens all the time. But the alternative is worse.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

@Wright

While I agree, the problem is "taking hits from someone 5x stronger than you", is outlierish to some.

Then we count it as an outlier and ignore it.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Is this thread for VS threads or scaling chains?

 

[Schnee_One]

Both I think

 

[Sera_EX]

Vs threads