Amitabha-Sized Touhou Revisions (Previous Thread Merging)

[OverlordDonnelly]

I agree with Ant, but having ones scans and evidence being dismissed as headcanon with no other argument, is understandably upsetting and rude.

As I've said before, it spits in the face of those who went out of their way to find scans and info, if you simply call their revision headcanon afterwards.

Anyway, I personally agree with death manip resistance. Even the panel talking about reincarnation shows a hypothetical human going from being a spirit to being a human again.

Plus, unless someone goes entirely through the proper process in the Netherworld, they won't be stuck there. So that means that dead humans being able to return in said context, doesn't discredit Death manipulation occurring.

So yeah, I'm inclined to believe the characters who have gone through the Netherworld and back without becoming spirits, have resistance to death manipulation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, I'm not getting involved here. Until Mal brings evidence, his own claims are far more subject to be labeled as 'headcanon', as everybody arguing in favor of death resistance has provided ample scans and evidence. May I remind Mal that providing evidence for one's claims is all but a requirement for debate on this site; A requirement that I and other supporters have already met.

Unrelated but the minor ability revisions are done, so I guess we can keep tearing each other's throats out over the remaining revisions if we really want to.

 

[Antvasima]

It would probably be good if you write what our staff still need to evaluate here in a single post.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, it's really just the entire second part of the revision, but I suppose I can just copy/paste that here for convenience.

The things we still need to evaluate are as follows:

Spoiler: Everything else that needs to be evaluated (really long)

Acrobatics

So as far as I’m aware, this applies to the main cast primarily due to the ability to weave in and out of complex danmaku patterns while flying (which, AFAIK, would qualify as self-momentum), as well as air dashes, front flips, and the like in the grounded fighters. With that in mind, the fact that I applied it to characters such as Tenryu or Chang’e is pretty blatantly wrong, given how they don’t engage in spell card duels (or any fights at all, for that matter). So remove acrobatics from them and all other non-combatants. I’d also like to add acrobatics to Okina, because while I originally thought applying acrobatics to a canon wheelchair user was kind of cruel, she does in fact show the same skill in dodging danmaku in spite of that, putting her on par with everyone else.

Fairies

Add Immortality (Types 3 & 4). While they do have type 8, fairies can still die; they just come back to life later on. Akyuu also mentions this in PMiSS, stating that they immediately resurrect after death. It’s not like we can just leave it at type 8, either; the immortality page makes it pretty clear that type 8 has to grant at least one other form of immortality:

"The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise."

Type 3 is from their already accepted High-Mid regen.

Also, the key for the species page should be changed to say “At least 10-C, up to 9-B” since we know of the existence of fairies that are only a few inches tall. This would also be a reason to add Small Size (Type 1) to the species page, with the specification that it only applies to some fairies.

Phantoms, Fairies, and Prismrivers

Grouping these all together for convenience.

In PoFV, Komachi says that fairies exist in a similar state to phantoms, in that they have no lifespan. She also says the same about the Prismrivers. Lacking a lifespan is pretty obviously Immortality (Type 1), which should be applied to all phantoms, fairies, and the Prismrivers. And of course, since Komachi can outright see lifespans, she’s definitely an accurate source on this.

I’m aware fairy type 1 immortality is somewhat contradicted by PMiSS saying they are short-lived, but given how it immediately goes on to talk about how reckless fairies are due to their immortality, the context seems to be that they just don’t care if they die, not that they have naturally short lifespans.

Ability Cards

Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and Clairvoyance from Youmu's card granting you half of Youmu's phantom half and from Nazrin's card granting you her ability. Applies to Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, and Sakuya's optional equipment tabs.

All Youkai + Reimu & Marisa

Type 1 Acausality, as none of them were affected by the human village being removed from history. Youkai are reliant on human belief to sustain their existence, so naturally removing the source of that belief would erase youkai from reality. Except that obviously didn’t happen, so this proves that youkai are unaffected by changes to the past.

Reimu and Marisa, being two humans who do in fact rely on the human village (especially so for Marisa, given her family lives there), should also get this from, y’know, not dying.

Beast Youkai

PMiSS describes them as being resistant to mental attacks, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation.

Applies to Chen, Ran, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Shou, Kyouko, Mamizou, Seiran, and Ringo. Also applies to Yuuma since she should be a beast youkai similarly to Saki and Yachie.

17.5 Cast

Reimu, Marisa, Kanako, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre should get Water Manipulation, Absorption, and Healing, since the central mechanic of 17.5 is absorbing water to heal yourself and power your spell cards. The video itself doesn’t really make it apparent but the mechanics are explained more in depth in the video description.

Still More Resistances

I know I already covered some resistances above, but this is for stuff that applies to a big chunk of the cast. I'm not gonna explain literally every character's appearance on the lists below because that'd take an eternity.

Two things first, though. I’m not giving resistances for fighting game characters unless the resistance comes from a story mode, otherwise we’d get an overly inflated number of resistances. Secondly, I am 100% positive I missed some characters due to how hard it is to look through every bit of canon material to determine who’s been where and who’s fought who. If you see anyone who’s missing from a list, please say so, and keep these resistances in mind for future reference should we find another character who would qualify.

Anyone who's canonically fought or interacted with phantoms should get Resistance to Empathic and Mind Manipulation, since phantoms passively affect the minds and emotions of anyone near them, and the characters listed below have no indication that they were ever affected. For the record, I'm not including vengeful spirits, ghosts, poltergeists, or dream souls, since I can't confidently say they're similar enough to phantoms to have the same physiology. I'm also only going by characters who were visibly near phantoms at some point, otherwise I'd have to make a ton of assumptions. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Rumia, Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Alice, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Suika, Komachi, Tenshi, Letty, Chen, Ran, Suika, Wriggle, Mystia, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Mokou, Aki, Eiki, Shizuha, Nitori, Hina, Aya, Orin, Utsuho, Hatate, Kogasa, Luna Child, Sunny Milk, Star Sapphire, Byakuren, Nazrin, Nue, Ichirin, Shou, Joon, Shion, and Kanako.

Then we have Doremy's dream souls, which can instantly put a person to sleep and send their soul to the Dream World. Since these characters get hit by her dream souls repeatedly in Doremy's AoCF story route and are fine, they should get Resistance to Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and BFR. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Byakuren, Ichirin, Miko, Futo, Mokou, Yukari, Nitori, Kokoro, Joon, Shion, and Sumireko.

Reimu was affected by a dream soul in WaHH, but keep in mind that the chapter of WaHH where this happened was released 2 years prior to AoCF (2015 vs 2017), so it's likely that she developed a resistance over time.

We also have Tenshi attempting to absorb temperament in the form of mist from all across Gensokyo and the Otherworlds in SWR. According to Komachi, temperament is phantoms, and in PMiSS we’re told that phantoms are souls, so Tenshi was absorbing souls in this case (as further demonstrated by phantoms disappearing from the Netherworld). In case you need more evidence to prove these are souls being absorbed, Tenshi also calls it ‘the essence of all living things’. The protagonists, while affected, are still able to fight normally and shrug off the effects for a long time, so they should all have Resistance to Soul Absorption. But it doesn’t stop there. Youmu’s statement makes it clear that this was affecting all living things, not just the SWR cast. Since obviously nobody died or had their souls permanently affected as a result of this, this means literally ******* everyone should have resistance to soul absorption. There are a few exceptions however, such as those that did not exist at the time or were not in Gensokyo, who I’ll list below.

Tenshi (doesn’t count since she was the one doing the absorbing), Benben, Yatsuhashi, Raiko, Sumireko, Aunn, Narumi, Maribel, Renko.

Jesus. Should the universal resistance not go through it should at least still apply to the SWR cast, minus Tenshi.

Next is Hell and Former Hell. In WaHH, it's explained that as a soul travels deeper underground, they'll begin to be purified and ultimately crystalize. Considering Hell is about as deep as you can get, it should be more than deep enough for souls to begin to crystalize (or already be crystalized), so everyone who's visited Hell should get Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Transmutation, and Purification (Type 2) (not Junko's brand of purification, sadly). Additionally, Kasen states that the air in Former Hell is more toxic than the air at a geyser that was emitting poisonous gas, so everyone who's been there should get Resistance to Poison Manipulation (only applies to Former Hell, not any other hell). The list of everyone who's been to Hell or Former Hell is as follows:

Former Hell: Reimu, Marisa, Aya, Sanae, Kanako, Parsee, Suika, Yuugi, Satori, Orin, Okuu, Koishi, Hatate, Ichirin, Murasa, Byakuren, Miko, Shinmyoumaru, Sumireko, Joon, Shion, and Kasen.

Hell: Everyone in the Former Hell list, plus Youmu, Komachi, Eiki, Tenshi, Hecatia, Clownpiece, and Suiki.

Additionally, Reimu, Marisa, Orin, and Utsuho should get Resistance to Extreme Heat. Shouldn't be hard to explain, they all fight while right next to a giant lava lake, and Orin states the temperatures are so hot that the things that burn there don’t even leave ashes behind. Sanae and Cirno also get this since they fight Utsuho inside the reactor core in their Hisoutensoku routes, and both mention how overwhelming the heat is, though they fight Utsuho without issue. Finally, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre also get this due to fighting Utsuho in 17.5, while surrounded on both sides by flames.

Next is the Forest of Magic, which is both stated to change the nature of anything that lives there, the air there is filled with poisonous spores that worsen the health of anyone there, and there are mushrooms that can cause hallucinations just by being near them. Now, the first statement is a bit vague, but since the example given is of a regular jizo statue turning into a magician (Narumi), it seems more like transformation than anything else. You could argue Narumi doesn't resist it because she was obviously transformed, but the way I see it is that she didn't have any innate resistances as a jizo statue since she was just an inanimate object, but now that she's alive she does have her own resistances. The resistances for characters who've gone to the Forest of Magic are Resistance to Transformation, Poison Manipulation, and Perception Manipulation. The list of everyone who's been to the Forest of Magic is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Cirno, Sakuya, Remilia, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Aya, Komachi, Satori, Sumireko, Narumi, Mai, Satono, Rinnosuke, Mamizou, Aki, Eternity, Star Sapphire, Luna Child, and Sunny Milk.

Finally, we have the Netherworld, which Yuyuko says being there is equal to being dead. Furthermore, Yuyuko compares the process of visiting and leaving the Netherworld to that of reincarnation, supporting the idea that the Netherworld does in fact kill whatever exists there (since in order to reincarnate, you need to die). Considering numerous characters have visited the Netherworld and were obviously still alive while doing so, they should all get Resistance to Death Manipulation. This obviously doesn’t apply to anyone who is already dead (like Yuyuko).

Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, Saigyou Ayakashi, Yukari, Alice, Patchouli, Remilia, Aya, Sanae, Seija, Chen, Ran, Satori, Orin, Reisen, Komachi, and Iku.

The Netherworld and Heaven

A re-upgrade for the cosmology: not too long ago, the idea that the Netherworld and Heaven are infinite was rejected because Akyuu's statement comparing the Netherworld to Hell was seen as inaccurate or just a rumor. However, this is no longer the case, since in the references section of PMiSS, it's made very clear that Akyuu got her information on the afterlives from The Ministry of Right and Wrong, which oversees the afterlives, so considering this information came from them, we can now confidently say that "the Netherworld is larger than Hell'' is an accurate statement.

What does this change? Well, it gives us a more concrete understanding of the cosmology, but more importantly, Tenshi shaking the Heavens and threatening to destroy all of it, which was originally placed at 4-A/3-B, is now H3-A, some very important evidence for Touhou keeping its current ratings. It also further strengthens the argument for Doremy’s universal dream creation, since she can clearly recreate the Netherworld.

Universal Re-Scaling

As much as I strongly believe in universal Touhou, I have to admit our current profiles do a shit job of explaining why Touhou is universal. Time to fix that.

Suika: Just remove the canopy of the heavens feat, pretty sure a vague ‘shattering the sky’ statement caps out at like. Tier 6 in most circumstances.

Miko: Senkai creation is universal again, maybe: one thing that we all kinda overlooked when we downgraded this feat is that we currently treat Otherworlds as brane worlds, so Senkai’s spatial extent doesn’t really matter; this is a low 2-C creation feat because brane worlds are ******* stupid (but I’m not complaining). So remove the “realm with a moon” stuff and change the description to reference how Senkai is a brane world and branes are low 2-C by default.

Kasen: Same deal as Miko. List Senkai creation, and while the “far superior to Miko” statement is fine by itself, adding the Senkai feat is one less hoop people have to jump through when finding the source of universal AP.

Yukari: I kinda regret adding the constellation feat because it doesn’t really add to the universal justifications. The feat itself is weird anyways since we don’t know if she actually created the individual stars that make up the constellations or just moved pre-existing ones. Get rid of it.

Eirin: Bit of a minor change, the ‘hinted to be able to use a Klein bottle’ thing is a bit weird since WoG confirms it IS a Klein bottle, no speculation needed. Change the description to something like “Can utilize a Klein bottle in combat, which contains infinite mass and is likely 4D”. Furthermore, creating the sealed chamber should be removed. Her profile currently says it might be an illusion, but the text itself is very blatant about how none of it is real. So it's an illusion creation feat that doesn't scale to AP and wouldn't have even been universal, anyways.

Okina: The ‘god of stars’ thing needs to go, literally what ******* purpose does this serve lmao

Doremy: Dreams can contain Hell, which is infinite. That alone is a much better justification than “Otherworlds of varying size”. And now that the Netherworld is infinite too, we should probably add that as well since it also appears in dreams. And of course, the whole “Otherworlds are brane worlds” thing makes size irrelevant anyways. This should be 2-C, but dream scaling isn’t something I’m going to bother debating yet. Though if we can get 2-C accepted here then that’d be pretty cool.

Tenshi: for the love of god why have we still not added the ‘shaking the Heavens’ feat it’s been like 5 years since AoCF came out

Keine: Her Hakutaku form can create history, which according to WoG, creates the future as well. Being able to create the past and future is a pretty blatant timeline creation feat, and thus low 2-C.

Youmu: Add her spell card "Matsuyoi-Reflecting Satellite Slash", it covers an infinite range with energy, can’t get more blatantly H3-A than that.

Komachi: Pretty sure we agreed that her spatial expansion feat doesn't translate to AP. It has no reason to remain.

Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition

Note: LordGriffin has already agreed to this feat.

I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V

Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.

In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.

The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).

We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.

The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.

First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.

In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.

In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.

TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

The Netherworld and Heaven

A re-upgrade for the cosmology: not too long ago, the idea that the Netherworld and Heaven are infinite was rejected because Akyuu's statement comparing the Netherworld to Hell was seen as inaccurate or just a rumor. However, this is no longer the case, since in the references section of PMiSS, it's made very clear that Akyuu got her information on the afterlives from The Ministry of Right and Wrong, which oversees the afterlives, so considering this information came from them, we can now confidently say that "the Netherworld is larger than Hell'' is an accurate statement.

What does this change? Well, it gives us a more concrete understanding of the cosmology, but more importantly, Tenshi shaking the Heavens and threatening to destroy all of it, which was originally placed at 4-A/3-B, is now H3-A, some very important evidence for Touhou keeping its current ratings. It also further strengthens the argument for Doremy’s universal dream creation, since she can clearly recreate the Netherworld.

In the first Akyuu scan it says it's larger than hell. I'd argue an infinite size structure cannot be larger than another infinite sized structure but fiction does stupid stuff like that all the time.

Either way, if Hell is infinite in size and the information that states the Netherworld is larger than Hell is credible, I'm not opposed to the upgrade in size.

 

[Malomtek]

Summed Up: "I have no evidence to debunk the claim so I'll claim headcanon to help me out".

You're the only one making some convoluted argument. Throwing in evidence that's not present and then refusing to even provide a bit of canon material to at least justify your statements. At the very least, it seems you're sitting down and letting the mods evaluate themselves. So, I'll do the same.



Bruh, what? You literally called me a hypocrite and spoke to me in a condescending manner. Now you're upset with me for doing the same? Whether you meant to or not, you didn't exactly present yourself in a way that would encourage me to respect you. I gave you the same energy you gave me. Not a single thing I said was headcannon? The scan is right there? You know. Evidence. The thing you lack and refuse to even acknowledge you lack/refuse to even use. I'm using the information present. One scan talks about entering the Netherworld is similar to death and the next scan talks about giving the humans refuge if the village gets destroyed. You're twisting the information and throwing in random details that aren't ever addressed or hinted at within the scans like the humans somehow dying from the volcano when that is highly unlikely to be the case. I'm genuinely confused why you think I should respect you? Most of the time I speak to you normally. The only times I get snarky or what not is when you start to show an attitude. (And I'm going to assume the best case scenario and say, you don't mean to have said attitude or realize you're doing it but nonetheless, it's there). And thus, I respond the same way. Yes, I should definitely not do so and remain civil. So, I'll apologize for that. But I don't think you have the right to complain about my attitude or talk about "headcanon" when the only support you ever bring is...well...headcanon.

Outside of that, I think I'll be ending the discussion here. I rather not derail the thread with another back and forth. If you wish to showcase evidence or start over with a more respectful tone, I'll match the energy and show you respect. Otherwise, have a good day.

I agree with Ant, but having ones scans and evidence being dismissed as headcanon with no other argument, is understandably upsetting and rude.

As I've said before, it spits in the face of those who went out of their way to find scans and info, if you simply call their revision headcanon afterwards.

Anyway, I personally agree with death manip resistance. Even the panel talking about reincarnation shows a hypothetical human going from being a spirit to being a human again.

Plus, unless someone goes entirely through the proper process in the Netherworld, they won't be stuck there. So that means that dead humans being able to return in said context, doesn't discredit Death manipulation occurring.

So yeah, I'm inclined to believe the characters who have gone through the Netherworld and back without becoming spirits, have resistance to death manipulation.

Yeah, I'm not getting involved here. Until Mal brings evidence, his own claims are far more subject to be labeled as 'headcanon', as everybody arguing in favor of death resistance has provided ample scans and evidence. May I remind Mal that providing evidence for one's claims is all but a requirement for debate on this site; A requirement that I and other supporters have already met.

Unrelated but the minor ability revisions are done, so I guess we can keep tearing each other's throats out over the remaining revisions if we really want to.

Scans are not evidence or proof of anything by themselves. Nothing in the scans "proves" any sort of insta-death properties inherent to entering the netherworld.

Again:

This entire "resistance to death manipulation due to entering the netherworld and staying alive" thing can only go one of two ways:

1. The netherworld has magical insta-death auto-kill properties on living beings, meaning that it would be an absurdity for Yuyuko to attempt to take still-living humans into refuge into the netherworld, where they'll just die anyway.

2. The netherworld doesn't have those properties, which means that nobody gets resistances simply from entering it and staying alive.

It really is quite simple. Attempts at rules-lawyering won't change that.

Headcanons (and this must be repeated) about "temporarily dying" when going inside the netherworld and "un-dying" when you leave can only work against any sort of "resistance", because then there's no reason why any main character shouldn't be "temporarily dead" from going inside the netherworld too. This doesn't change no matter how many scans are being produced.

@LordGriffin1000 what do you have to say about this?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mal. You have repeatedly ignored many of the points stated by myself and several other supporters, and you continue to do so. You simply saying that our scans are 'headcanons' means nothing. Also, regular users can't @ staff (or anyone, for that matter).

Please do not bring up this topic again unless you have something new to say beyond childish remarks about our own arguments. Thank you.

Anyways, to respond to Griffin, Hell is indeed infinite and has been accepted as such for a while, the main issue was people thinking Akyuu's statement was unreliable. So it's good to have the Netherworld back up to infinite size again.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Scans are not evidence or proof of anything by themselves. Nothing in the scans "proves" any sort of insta-death properties inherent to entering the netherworld.

Again:

This entire "resistance to death manipulation due to entering the netherworld and staying alive" thing can only go one of two ways:

1. The netherworld has magical insta-death auto-kill properties on living beings, meaning that it would be an absurdity for Yuyuko to attempt to take still-living humans into refuge into the netherworld, where they'll just die anyway.

2. The netherworld doesn't have those properties, which means that nobody gets resistances simply from entering it and staying alive.

It really is quite simple. Attempts at rules-lawyering won't change that.

Headcanons (and this must be repeated) about "temporarily dying" when going inside the netherworld and "un-dying" when you leave can only work against any sort of "resistance", because then there's no reason why any main character shouldn't be "temporarily dead" from going inside the netherworld too. This doesn't change no matter how many scans are being produced.

@LordGriffin1000 what do you have to say about this?

There's a lot wrong with...a lot of this really. But I did say I wouldn't debate without substantial evidence by the opposing side.

So, instead. (And maybe Grif doesn't want it/doesn't care but just in case). How about a quick summary of against/for is made by both sides. Summarized the points you've made and someone can do the same for the supporting side. Probably better than having him go through and read the back and forth. Or don't, again. If he's fine with just reading the thread itself, that's also alright. Clean, organized, easy to read.

Whatever is easiest for him. (If he actually wants to get involved with this particular debate. If not, then we can just wait for another staff input).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Summarizing the points made seems to be a good idea, though since Griffin is apparently looking through the rest of the revisions on his own, I do think we could stand to wait a bit (we are basically pinning the vast majority of this CRT on a single person, after all).

i need to go make dinner so i wont be able to do a summary rn anyways :v

 

[Angelzewolf]

Summarizing the points made seems to be a good idea, though since Griffin is apparently looking through the rest of the revisions on his own, I do think we could stand to wait a bit (we are basically pinning the vast majority of this CRT on a single person, after all).

That's fair. Again, whatever is the easiest for him.

 

[Malomtek]

Mal. You have repeatedly ignored many of the points stated by myself and several other supporters, and you continue to do so. You simply saying that our scans are 'headcanons' means nothing. Also, regular users can't @ staff (or anyone, for that matter).

Please do not bring up this topic again unless you have something new to say beyond childish remarks about our own arguments. Thank you.

Anyways, to respond to Griffin, Hell is indeed infinite and has been accepted as such for a while, the main issue was people thinking Akyuu's statement was unreliable. So it's good to have the Netherworld back up to infinite size again.

There's a lot wrong with...a lot of this really. But I did say I wouldn't debate without substantial evidence by the opposing side.

So, instead. (And maybe Grif doesn't want it/doesn't care but just in case). How about a quick summary of against/for is made by both sides. Summarized the points you've made and someone can do the same for the supporting side. Probably better than having him go through and read the back and forth. Or don't, again. If he's fine with just reading the thread itself, that's also alright. Clean, organized, easy to read.

Whatever is easiest for him. (If he actually wants to get involved with this particular debate. If not, then we can just wait for another staff input).

Summarizing the points made seems to be a good idea, though since Griffin is apparently looking through the rest of the revisions on his own, I do think we could stand to wait a bit (we are basically pinning the vast majority of this CRT on a single person, after all).

i need to go make dinner so i wont be able to do a summary rn anyways :v

That's fair. Again, whatever is the easiest for him.

I'm not the one making these "revision" threads, you guys are. If your scans don't actually prove what you're trying to argue, that's your problem, not mine.

 

[Angelzewolf]

I'm not the one making these "revision" threads, you guys are. If your scans don't actually prove what you're trying to argue, that's your problem, not mine.

Alright, sure.

So, Mokou whenever you feel is right. You can make a summary. I think Mal chose not to do so? Can't really control him so alright.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Scans are not evidence or proof of anything by themselves. Nothing in the scans "proves" any sort of insta-death properties inherent to entering the netherworld.

Again:

This entire "resistance to death manipulation due to entering the netherworld and staying alive" thing can only go one of two ways:

1. The netherworld has magical insta-death auto-kill properties on living beings, meaning that it would be an absurdity for Yuyuko to attempt to take still-living humans into refuge into the netherworld, where they'll just die anyway.

2. The netherworld doesn't have those properties, which means that nobody gets resistances simply from entering it and staying alive.

It really is quite simple. Attempts at rules-lawyering won't change that.

Headcanons (and this must be repeated) about "temporarily dying" when going inside the netherworld and "un-dying" when you leave can only work against any sort of "resistance", because then there's no reason why any main character shouldn't be "temporarily dead" from going inside the netherworld too. This doesn't change no matter how many scans are being produced.

@LordGriffin1000 what do you have to say about this?

I'll be sure to look over the Resistance to Death stuff when I can. As I've stated, I'm busy with real life things, stuff outside of the wiki and on it. If I don't respond on it later, I'll comment tomorrow for sure.

Anyways, to respond to Griffin, Hell is indeed infinite and has been accepted as such for a while, the main issue was people thinking Akyuu's statement was unreliable. So it's good to have the Netherworld back up to infinite size again.

Ok then.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll have a recap up by tomorrow.

 

[Malomtek]

I think Mal chose not to do so?

I'll be sure to look over the Resistance to Death stuff when I can. As I've stated, I'm busy with real life things, stuff outside of the wiki and on it. If I don't respond on it later, I'll comment tomorrow for sure.

Here's the recap, particularly of the "netherworld death inducement stuff" (since I don't particularly care for the rest, and I'll let multiple staff deal with the Sanzu River nonsense):

The current argument begins with:

Finally, we have the Netherworld, which Yuyuko says being there is equal to being dead. Furthermore, Yuyuko compares the process of visiting and leaving the Netherworld to that of reincarnation, supporting the idea that the Netherworld does in fact kill whatever exists there (since in order to reincarnate, you need to die). Considering numerous characters have visited the Netherworld and were obviously still alive while doing so, they should all get Resistance to Death Manipulation. This obviously doesn’t apply to anyone who is already dead (like Yuyuko).

As you can see here, YesMokou is arguing that due to Yuyuko saying that "being in the netherworld is the same as being dead", and someone asking whether passing on to the netherworld and back would be identical to the process of reincarnation, it means that the netherworld has insta-death auto-kill properties against living beings, and therefore being able to enter the netherworld and stay alive in the process means resistance to death manipulation.

My own argument is that these all amount to little more than poetic manners of saying that the netherworld is the "land of the dead", and that someone asking about the netherworld and it's relation to reincarnation is entirely in relation to the passing on of Human Villagers in the wake of a cataclysmic volcanic eruption and its fallout.

The counter-argument is that volcanic eruptions and emissions don't kill people that fast, and therefore the Human Villagers would have had time to seek shelters, so not all of them would die, and I argue that that's irrelevant because Gensokyo basically is an island rimmed with mountains, the Human Village is an unfortified settlement surrounded by monsters, and the humans have nowhere to go before the volcanic effects catch up to them anyway. Even if some of them did find shelter in the living world, it would be irrelevant to the actual workings of the netherworld anyway, as the rest would be either dying or dead.

Somebody (I don't remember exactly who) advanced an argument that one that enters the netherworld through the process of death has to go through the reincarnation cycle to leave, while someone who enters the netherworld simply as a "guest" can leave whenever they want to. I argue (reasonably) that this undercuts the "death resistances" argumentation, because a "guest" being able to leave a netherworld whenever implies strongly against said netherworld having magic insta-kill properties.

There's also this nice dilemma I brought up:

1. The netherworld has magical insta-death auto-kill properties on living beings, meaning that it would be an absurdity for Yuyuko to attempt to take still-living humans into refuge into the netherworld, where they'll just die anyway.

2. The netherworld doesn't have those properties, which means that nobody gets resistances simply from entering it and staying alive.

Angelzewolf has also advanced the argument that the netherworld only temporarily kills people, and upon leaving the netherworld they are un-killed. I argue (reasonably) that this is pure headcanon, and that this also kneecaps the notion of "death resistances" for simply entering the netherworld and appearing to stay alive, since anyone entering (like the protagonists) could also just be "temporarily dead" for the remainder of their stay.

 

[Shmooply]

Scans are not evidence or proof of anything by themselves.

Is this an intentional joke comment? You're saying that actual proof of something isn't evidence of said something.

The netherworld has magical insta-death auto-kill properties on living beings, meaning that it would be an absurdity for Yuyuko to attempt to take still-living humans into refuge into the netherworld, where they'll just die anyway.

You're again ignoring context. Yuyuko was considering letting the humans take refuge inside the Netherworld, until she realized that would result in the humans dying if they got inside, and then being reborn once they left. Also, Yuyuko has been potrayed to be dimwitted at times, so your "it would be absurd for her to do this" argument falls flat.

My own argument is that these all amount to little more than poetic manners of saying that the netherworld is the "land of the dead",

Saying that a random scan is poetic isn't an argument.

Somebody (I don't remember exactly who) advanced an argument that one that enters the netherworld through the process of death has to go through the reincarnation cycle to leave, while someone who enters the netherworld simply as a "guest" can leave whenever they want to. I argue (reasonably) that this undercuts the "death resistances" argumentation, because a "guest" being able to leave a netherworld whenever implies strongly against said netherworld having magic insta-kill properties.

You're being a hypocrite in this post. You accuse us of using headcanons, and then use one as an argument. Also, if the heroines were "guests" that were allowed inside the Netherworld, then the entire plot of Perfect Cherry Blossom is a mess, since in the story the heroines are trying to break into the Netherworld since they weren't invited to it (The Prismriver Sisters deny Reimu access to the Netherworld since she wasn't invited, they don't let Marisa in until she beats them, and Sakuya bypasses the barrier since the sisters won't ler her in).

Angelzewolf has also advanced the argument that the netherworld only temporarily kills people, and upon leaving the netherworld they are un-killed. I argue (reasonably) that this is pure headcanon, and that this also kneecaps the notion of "death resistances" for simply entering the netherworld and appearing to stay alive, since anyone entering (like the protagonists) could also just be "temporarily dead" for the remainder of their stay.

Angel's argument doesn't make sense either, since it's shown that humans become spirits upon entering the Netherworld in the second scan. It also doesn't help that characters that originate from the Netherworld have a ghastly appearance (Yuyuko having pale skin and constantly being surrounded by phantoms and apparitions, Youmu's phantom half, and Tago and Mizuchi's weird ghost legs), whereas the heroines that have entered it look just fine.

 

[Shmooply]

(If Griffin isn't interested in reading my long post, I can shorten it.)

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Scans are not evidence or proof of anything by themselves.

Caught in 64K UHD surround sound 16 Gigs ram, HDR GEFORCE RTX, TI-80 texas insturments, Triple A duracell battery ultrapower100 Cargador Compatible iPhone 1A 5 W 1400 + Cable 100% 1 Metro Blanco Compatible iPhone 5 5 C 5S 6 SE 6S 7 8 X XR XS XS MAX GoPro hero 1 2 terrabyte xbox series x Dell UltraSharp 49 Curved Monitor - U4919DW Sony HDC-3300R 2/3" CCD HD Super Motion Color Camera, 1080p Resolution Toshiba EM131A5C-SS Microwave Oven with Smart Sensor, Easy Clean Interior, ECO Mode and Sound On/Off, 1.2 Cu. ft, Stainless Steel HP LaserJet Pro M404n Monochrome Laser Printer with Built-in Ethernet (W1A52A) GE Voluson E10 Ultrasound Machine LG 23 Cu. Ft. Smart Wi-Fi Enabled InstaView Door-in-Door Counter-Depth Refrigerator with Craft Ice Maker GFW850SPNRS GE 28" Front Load Steam Washer 5.0 Cu. Ft. with SmartDispense, WiFi, OdorBlock and Sanitize and Allergen - Royal Sapphire Kohler K-3589 Cimarron Comfort Height Two-Piece Elongated 1.6 GPF Toilet with AquaPiston Flush Technology., Quick Charge 30W Cargador 3.0 Cargador de Viaje Enchufe Cargador USB Carga Rápida con 3 Puertos carga rápida Adaptador de Corriente para iPhone x 8 7 Xiaomi Pocophone F1 Mix 3 A1 Samsung S10 S9 S8AUKEY Quick Charge 3.0 Cargador de Pared 39W Dual Puerto Cargador Móvil para Samsung Galaxy S8 / S8+/ Note 8, iPhone XS / XS Max / XR, iPad Pro / Air, HTC 10, LG G5 / G6 AUKEY Quick Charge 3.0 Cargador USB 60W 6 Puerto Cargador Móvil para Samsung Galaxy S8 / S8+ / Note 8, LG G5 / G6, Nexus 5X / 6P, HTC 10, iPhone XS / XS Max / XR, iPad Pro/ Air, Moto G4 SAMSUNG 85-inch Class Crystal UHD TU-8000 Series - 64K UHD HDR Smart TV with Alexa Built-in (UN85TU8000FXZA, 2020 Model) GE 38846 Premium Slim LED Light Bar, 18 Inch Under Cabinet Fixture, Plug-In, Convertible to Direct Wire, Linkable 628 Lumens, 3000K Soft Warm White, High/Off/Low, Easy to Install, Easy to Install, 18 Ft Bissell Cleanview Swivel Pet Upright Bagless Vacuum Cleaner Trane

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Claims not to want to post a recap
Posts a recap anyways while I'm sleeping

Anyways, I suppose I'll post my own recap.

Spoiler: Netherworld death manip

In PCB, when fighting Yuyuko in Reimu’s route, she says the following;

“Being here is equal to being dead”

This could be interpreted as only dead beings being allowed in the Netherworld, but that leads me to the second statement in CDS:

“Passing on to the Netherworld and back… wouldn’t that be reincarnation?”

The context here is that Yuyuko will provide refuge to the denizens of the human village should a volcanic eruption occur. Since the process of going to the Netherworld and back is compared to reincarnation, this would mean anybody who enters it would die and then come back to life later on (after all, you need to die in order to reincarnate). We even see an example human villager represented in this cycle as ‘dying’ and coming back to life in a simplistic chart.

Finally, as a bit of supporting evidence, even the plants and animals within the Netherworld are dead.

As for characters resisting it, basically every main character who has gone to the Netherworld did not die; they continued to live in a location that kills all living beings within it. This is quite obviously resistance to death manipulation.

Now for the counterpoints.

“Yuyuko is saying she’ll grant refuge to the human villagers in that they’ll die, go to the Netherworld naturally, and then she’ll let them go”

There’s a lot wrong with this assumption, and covering it will also cover a few other debunks brought up.

First of all, that’s not what ‘take refuge’ means; It means to seek shelter or protection from potential harm. So, if the villagers have already been killed by the eruption, what exactly are they taking refuge from?

Secondly, the Netherworld doesn’t work like that. If someone is to die naturally, they must first go to Higan and face the Yama’s judgment. From there, they will be shuffled off to the Netherworld, Hell, or Heaven depending on their actions in life. For Yuyuko to grant the human villagers refuge in the Netherworld after they face the Yama’s judgment (as they would have to after being killed in an eruption), this would mean every single villager would have to have lived a life so identical to one another that they all end up in the same afterlife; Obviously a ridiculous assumption.

But let’s say that that does happen, somehow; Turns out this argument still doesn’t work, because it also hinges on the idea that Yuyuko will let them go after a while (she does just straight up say that in the original text, so it isn’t a permanent stay). Thing is, for those who go to the Netherworld post-judgment, they literally cannot leave until they reach nirvana or reincarnate; To assume that Yuyuko could make this a mere temporary stay when the mechanics of how the afterlife in Touhou works directly contradicts this is absurd.

However, if the human villagers are merely invited to the Netherworld and ‘die’ there before coming back, they never face the Yama’s judgment and are free to leave whenever they wish; Therefore, the interpretation that I and other supporters believe (that Yuyuko grants still-living villagers refuge in the Netherworld) avoids the issues of potentially differentiating afterlives, the idea of a permanent stay, and the fact that Mal’s interpretation misrepresents the text (taking refuge from something that already killed you is really funny, but unfortunately unusable in an actual debate).

“The eruption would kill the villagers before Yuyuko or anyone else could evacuate them”

Also wrong for numerous reasons! Volcanic eruptions don’t just kill anybody instantaneously; They take a long time to occur, or even directly threaten nearby settlements. But more than that, the main concern for the human village is stated to be food; They cannot grow any crops with volcanic ash around, after all. While food shortage is a serious issue, it still leaves ample time for alternate solutions; Starvation takes days to occur, and of course food reserves exist.

But let’s say this is as dire as Mal makes it out to be and the villagers have like 10 minutes before they all die horribly; After all, Gensokyo is spatially pretty small, so they wouldn’t have anywhere to go. Problem is, Yuyuko can literally open portals to the Netherworld whenever she wants, and virtually the entire non-human village population is capable of flight. Even in this hypothetical doomsday scenario that is in no way stated or implied by the text, there would still be ample opportunity to get the human villagers to safety.

Actually, I think these were the only two actual points that were made? Everything else was just saying the reasons I and other supporters provided were just flowery language, hyperbole, headcanon, etc. No real arguments or evidence, just ‘you’re wrong and bad and no I will not elaborate’. So if this seems one-sided then I guess that’s because it is?

Also, 'scans are not evidence'? There is not a single way to describe how I feel about that statement that wouldn't get me banned. Jesus christ dude.

 

[Pixy]

Scans are not evidence or proof of anything by themselves.

The **** !?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, Griffin. It is very appreciated.

Also, Malomtek, please remember to continuously do your best be polite and not provoke others.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Angel's argument doesn't make sense either, since it's shown that humans become spirits upon entering the Netherworld in the second scan. It also doesn't help that characters that originate from the Netherworld have a ghastly appearance (Yuyuko having pale skin and constantly being surrounded by phantoms and apparitions, Youmu's phantom half, and Tago and Mizuchi's weird ghost legs), whereas the heroines that have entered it look just fine.

In my defense, I never claimed the protagonist were dead. Otherwise, that would kinda contradict the notion they could resist. (Even in PCB, they're treated as living people and are shown to still be alive). I even explained the "temporary" portion was meant in the sense that the villagers would enter the netherworld and then leave it after the situation was handled. With the whole "temporary vs permanent" debacle.

As for Mal's last point. That would kinda work, if Youmu didn't immediately mention the protagonist being alive while in the netherworld. Thus debunking any sort of "They could've just been temporarily dead" claim.

TL DR - Never claimed the protagonist were dead. The "temporary death" was me addressing the fact they would be brought into the netherworld as guests and then let out. And the protagonist were never dead during their visit.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As for Mal's last point. That would kinda work, if Youmu didn't immediately mention the protagonist being alive while in the netherworld. Thus debunking any sort of "They could've just been temporarily dead" claim.

I should probably provide scans of that.

So yeah they're pretty blatantly not dying lmao

 

[Malomtek]

Is this an intentional joke comment? You're saying that actual proof of something isn't evidence of said something.

Scans aren't automatically "actual proof" of anything. Haven't there been more than enough Content Revision Threads for you to recognize this? Right now you're just engaging in some really circular reasoning.

You're again ignoring context. Yuyuko was considering letting the humans take refuge inside the Netherworld, until she realized that would result in the humans dying if they got inside, and then being reborn once they left. Also, Yuyuko has been potrayed to be dimwitted at times, so your "it would be absurd for her to do this" argument falls flat.

Your supposed "context" being based on circular reasoning where the premise ("netherworld has an auto-death effect") is essentially the same as the conclusion ("she realized that she couldn't let the humans take refuge because the netherworld has an auto-death effect".

Saying that a random scan is poetic isn't an argument.

It is. Not everything is to be literally interpreted in fiction.

You're being a hypocrite in this post. You accuse us of using headcanons, and then use one as an argument. Also, if the heroines were "guests" that were allowed inside the Netherworld, then the entire plot of Perfect Cherry Blossom is a mess, since in the story the heroines are trying to break into the Netherworld since they weren't invited to it (The Prismriver Sisters deny Reimu access to the Netherworld since she wasn't invited, they don't let Marisa in until she beats them, and Sakuya bypasses the barrier since the sisters won't ler her in).

I was just following up on the logic of the opposing side. I didn't bring up the "guests" argument, someone else did. You should take it up with them, not me.

Angel's argument doesn't make sense either, since it's shown that humans become spirits upon entering the Netherworld in the second scan. It also doesn't help that characters that originate from the Netherworld have a ghastly appearance (Yuyuko having pale skin and constantly being surrounded by phantoms and apparitions, Youmu's phantom half, and Tago and Mizuchi's weird ghost legs), whereas the heroines that have entered it look just fine.

Well I guess we can throw away that "temporarily dying" nonsense.

As for the "humans become spirits upon entering the netherworld" stuff, the "second scan" just shows a visualization of the process of reincarnation. There's nothing in it that actually proves that humans automatically become spirits upon entering the netherworld.

However, if the human villagers are merely invited to the Netherworld and ‘die’ there before coming back, they never face the Yama’s judgment and are free to leave whenever they wish

Wait, hold on. If the humans do indeed "die" upon entering the netherworld, wouldn't they be "swept up" to Higan to face the Yama's judgement anyway, since the afterlife mechanics of 2hu should be universal throughout? Clearly, they don't magically dissipate on Yuyuko's will, so what gives here?

If they're not actually dying, that gives up the "resistance to death manipulation for going inside the netherworld and staying alive" argument right then and there.

Also, Malomtek, please remember to continuously do your best be polite and not provoke others.

Sir, you personally know of the ways that these people have been nothing but nakedly hostile towards me and accusing me of every type of dishonesty under the sun ("lying", "misinterpreting evidence", etc.). I'm trying to be as polite and un-provoking as possible (especially given the circumstances), but these people clearly aren't giving me the same courtesy. In fact, they're clearly all showing attitude towards me simply on the fact that I'm present here and arguing against them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Scans aren't automatically "actual proof" of anything. Haven't there been more than enough Content Revision Threads for you to recognize this? Right now you're just engaging in some really circular reasoning.

"Threads need to be supported by scans...or any other direct proof"

Our discussion rules quite literally consider scans to be one of the primary forms of evidence required for a CRT. You're just embarrassing yourself with this 'scans aren't evidence' screed you keep insisting on.

It is. Not everything is to be literally interpreted in fiction.

Unfortunately, you need evidence of that being the case. You can't just say shit and not back yourself up.

Well I guess we can throw away that "temporarily dying" nonsense.

As for the "humans become spirits upon entering the netherworld" stuff, the "second scan" just shows a visualization of the process of reincarnation. There's nothing in it that actually proves that humans automatically become spirits upon entering the netherworld.

No, we can't, because they'd be 'temporarily dead' in the sense that they die while within the Netherworld, but come back to life once they leave.

Did you even read the text accompanying that visualization? “Passing on to the Netherworld and back… wouldn’t that be reincarnation?” The text is quite explicitly attributing the process of dying to entering the Netherworld, and the process of coming back to leaving the Netherworld.

Wait, hold on. If the humans do indeed "die" upon entering the netherworld, wouldn't they be "swept up" to Higan to face the Yama's judgement anyway, since the afterlife mechanics of 2hu should be universal throughout? Clearly, they don't magically dissipate on Yuyuko's will, so what gives here?

If they're not actually dying, that gives up the "resistance to death manipulation for going inside the netherworld and staying alive" argument right then and there.

Unfortunately, that would still contradict the text; If that were the case, Yuyuko's entire premise of granting refuge would be meaningless, since everybody would end up in Higan and not the Netherworld. Also like. You do realize that people don't get instantaneously BFR'd to Higan when they die, right? They need to be found and accompanied by Komachi, then ferried across the Sanzu River first; They aren't getting 'swept up' anywhere, because that is not how death works in Touhou.

They are dying. The text literally could not be more explicit about people dying when they enter the Netherworld.

Sir, you personally know of the ways that these people have been nothing but nakedly hostile towards me and accusing me of every type of dishonesty under the sun ("lying", "misinterpreting evidence", etc.). I'm trying to be as polite and un-provoking as possible (especially given the circumstances), but these people clearly aren't giving me the same courtesy. In fact, they're clearly all showing attitude towards me simply on the fact that I'm present here and arguing against them.

This is a particularly rich statement from somebody who has been banned twice, warned countless times, and repeatedly reported on the RVR for this exact behavior. Deflect all you like, but that will not change the fact that people are very quickly starting to grow sick of your behavior.

 

[Antvasima]

No bickering please. Laughing at him is rude and unnecessary.

 

[Shmooply]

You're once again using buzz words to disprove our arguments. Saying that something is a fallacy because you can't debunk it doesn't help your argument.

Scans aren't automatically "actual proof" of anything.

They literally are. Do you know what the definition of a scan is when it comes to battleboards? They are proof/evidence of a feat or statement, I don't understand your logic. Unless you were using the wrong words and meant to say faked scans or something.

Your supposed "context" being based on circular reasoning where the premise ("netherworld has an auto-death effect") is essentially the same as the conclusion ("she realized that she couldn't let the humans take refuge because the netherworld has an auto-death effect".

What even is your argument here, and how is it circular reasoning? Yes, Yuyuko realized she couldn't let the humans go inside the Netherworld because it would kill them, and your issue with this is... what?

It is. Not everything is to be literally interpreted in fiction.

I am fully aware of that. Interpetation of feats and other things is literally what makes this hobby fun. However, the issue lies that you're just saying something is poetic without explaining why is that the case, and not providing scans for your case.

the "second scan" just shows a visualization of the process of reincarnation. There's nothing in it that actually proves that humans automatically become spirits upon entering the netherworld.

How many times are you going to ignore the context of this scan?

It explicitly states and shows that if a living human were to go inside the Netherworld, they would die and turn into a spirit.

Sir, you personally know of the ways that these people have been nothing but nakedly hostile towards me and accusing me of every type of dishonesty under the sun ("lying", "misinterpreting evidence", etc.). I'm trying to be as polite and un-provoking as possible (especially given the circumstances), but these people clearly aren't giving me the same courtesy. In fact, they're clearly all showing attitude towards me simply on the fact that I'm present here and arguing against them.

Stop being a hypocrite and crying janitor wolf every single time. You've been warned and banned enough times for trying to play the victim, even though you yourself have been condescending and rude towards the supporters of this verse. Didn't you literally compare us to a hivemind before?

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait to see what our other staff members here think instead of launching a long bickering argument.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Sir, you personally know of the ways that these people have been nothing but nakedly hostile towards me and accusing me of every type of dishonesty under the sun ("lying", "misinterpreting evidence", etc.). I'm trying to be as polite and un-provoking as possible (especially given the circumstances), but these people clearly aren't giving me the same courtesy. In fact, they're clearly all showing attitude towards me simply on the fact that I'm present here and arguing against them.

I could make jokes. I could throw insults or be snarky, but I'll continue to try and respect Ant's wishes. No matter how difficult it may be. So, I'll answer sincerely and respectfully.

You are part of the problem. You cannot picture yourself getting banned, warned, reported, and still somehow deflect and blame others. You're not the only part of the problem, but you play a big role. Whether intentional or not, you automatically grow hostile, automatically gain an attitude, and everything you get upset about. You do in a near instant. Instead of debating by bringing canon material that contradicts said evidence. You instead try devaluing the supporting side by labeling everything as nonsense. (Headcanon, misinterpreting, etc). It's frustrating for people to go scan hunting just for someone to dismiss it with no evidence besides "logic".
Like I said, you're not the only problem. Those you face should also be respectful and what not. But you're not innocent, you make it difficult for us as we do for you. I'm pretty sure every mod who visits Touhou knows you're also the problem, much like a few of the supporting side are as well. We can all try respecting each other. But that is if everyone cooperates and plays on even grounds.

 

[Antvasima]

Angelzewolf makes sense to me.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I very strongly agree with Ant, Shmooply, and Angelzewolf. I really don't have much of anything else to add.

 

[Malomtek]

Did you even read the text accompanying that visualization? “Passing on to the Netherworld and back… wouldn’t that be reincarnation?” The text is quite explicitly attributing the process of dying to entering the Netherworld, and the process of coming back to leaving the Netherworld.

Yes, when you die, you pass on to the netherworld in Touhou. Nothing about that implies that the netherworld has insta-death properties.

You're once again using buzz words to disprove our arguments. Saying that something is a fallacy because you can't debunk it doesn't help your argument.

I didn't just throw "buzzwords", a term you yourself are just throwing around to dismiss my arguments.

They literally are. Do you know what the definition of a scan is when it comes to battleboards? They are proof/evidence of a feat or statement, I don't understand your logic. Unless you were using the wrong words and meant to say faked scans or something.

A scan can very much not prove anything of what the person posting it is actually arguing. There are countless content revision threads where this is the case.

What even is your argument here, and how is it circular reasoning? Yes, Yuyuko realized she couldn't let the humans go inside the Netherworld because it would kill them, and your issue with this is... what?

Because it doesn't kill them. Simple.

I am fully aware of that. Interpetation of feats and other things is literally what makes this hobby fun. However, the issue lies that you're just saying something is poetic without explaining why is that the case, and not providing scans for your case.

It is poetic because of the rather flowery, long-winded, "indirect" language involved in describing the whole thing. You keep on squawking about "scans" like it's some sort of crutch, when we're talking about how to handle a piece of text. It's incredibly silly.

How many times are you going to ignore the context of this scan?

It explicitly states and shows that if a living human were to go inside the Netherworld, they would die and turn into a spirit.

"Passing on"

This is a clear reference to what happens to a person in the netherworld if they already died beforehand, and are now going through the process of reincarnation. You don't "pass on" anywhere if you're just visiting it.

This is a particularly rich statement from somebody who has been banned twice, warned countless times, and repeatedly reported on the RVR for this exact behavior. Deflect all you like, but that will not change the fact that people are very quickly starting to grow sick of your behavior.

Stop being a hypocrite and crying janitor wolf every single time. You've been warned and banned enough times for trying to play the victim, even though you yourself have been condescending and rude towards the supporters of this verse. Didn't you literally compare us to a hivemind before?

I could make jokes. I could throw insults or be snarky, but I'll continue to try and respect Ant's wishes. No matter how difficult it may be. So, I'll answer sincerely and respectfully.

You are part of the problem. You cannot picture yourself getting banned, warned, reported, and still somehow deflect and blame others. You're not the only part of the problem, but you play a big role. Whether intentional or not, you automatically grow hostile, automatically gain an attitude, and everything you get upset about. You do in a near instant. Instead of debating by bringing canon material that contradicts said evidence. You instead try devaluing the supporting side by labeling everything as nonsense. (Headcanon, misinterpreting, etc). It's frustrating for people to go scan hunting just for someone to dismiss it with no evidence besides "logic".
Like I said, you're not the only problem. Those you face should also be respectful and what not. But you're not innocent, you make it difficult for us as we do for you. I'm pretty sure every mod who visits Touhou knows you're also the problem, much like a few of the supporting side are as well. We can all try respecting each other. But that is if everyone cooperates and plays on even grounds.

I repeat this for all of you: get off your high horses. Especially you, FujiwaraYesMokou, who's also been warned and (IIRC) banned multiple times as well.

Not once has any Touhou supporter in these threads been even mildly willing to "meet me halfway" or compromise with me on anything here. Every time I enter a Touhou thread, every Touhou supporter there puts on this "oh it's you, Mal" attitude. I'm sick of it. I don't like any of you, and I'll freely admit that, but I'm still willing to keep decorum for the purposes of keeping the threads "clean", and yet I'm constantly accused of every type of dishonesty by you people. If I were regularly accusing you people of being dishonest in this thread, you'd all be crying to the mods about it in the RVR thread. If I were throwing as much insults and snide remarks as you people do towards me, you'd constantly be crying to the RVR thread.

Just recently FujiwaraYesMokou reported me to the RVR thread because she thought my remarks towards her were "trying to start something", and I'm supposed to tolerate you people basically calling me some dishonest cretin by the second page of every thread?

FujiwaraYesMokou and Overlord Donnelly even jumped into a Bleach thread I made some time ago just to say "hurr hurr ur arguments suck just as they've always had Malomtek", which even the staff, who gives you people a lot of wide berth for this shit, said was unacceptable. I constantly see Angelzewolf and Overlord Donnelly randomly jump into arguments between me and YesMokou, as if on cue, just to plus-one YesMokou and say "you're the real bad one, Mal". It's tiring. I don't do that shit, you people do. It isn't "victim playing" when I see an entire verse's supporter group basically try to run me off this site because I don't agree with their conception of 2hu stats, trying to report me for even minor perceived infractions.

The effect is accentuated in that, aside from some staff members, who tend to come in these threads infrequently, and then only after much prodding, I'm basically alone in arguing against these "revisions", which tend to turn into a circle-jerk done almost entirely to over-inflate the stats of Touhou characters when I'm not there, and a "let's bash Malomtek" festival when I am there. Practically every argument against this circle-jerking is met with rote crowing about "scans" or some variety of wagon-circling as all the Touhou supporters act almost in unison to try to shore up each others arguments.

I'd feel more apologetic for my remarks being too sharp or for being "too dismissive" or whatever real or perceived grievances the Touhou supporters have against me if they didn't insist on being so obnoxious against me in general, while constantly crying about the "bad Malomtek" and pretending they didn't do anything wrong in the process, while I strenuously follow rules of thread decorum that they seem to skirt on regularly, without any mod checks against such behavior. It's nothing more or less than crybullying, and I'm sick and tired of it in general.

Inb4 I get reported for this too.

Let's wait to see what our other staff members here think instead of launching a long bickering argument.

Angelzewolf makes sense to me.

I don't want to get into long bickering arguments anymore, but I don't really agree with what Angelzewolf says

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"I don't want to get into long bickering arguments" proceeds to start a long bickering argument

The TL;DR is that you need evidence to support your claims and you need to stop treating everyone like shit. That's it. Nobody is trying to crucify you or brand you as the ******* antichrist or whatever; We are literally just holding you to the same standards as everyone else on this site. Now please just wait until we get an actual evaluation going so we can stop going in circles.

I suppose given the long walls of text given in between the original recaps, I should post my own recap again for convenience.

Spoiler: Netherworld death manip

In PCB, when fighting Yuyuko in Reimu’s route, she says the following;

“Being here is equal to being dead”

This could be interpreted as only dead beings being allowed in the Netherworld, but that leads me to the second statement in CDS:

“Passing on to the Netherworld and back… wouldn’t that be reincarnation?”

The context here is that Yuyuko will provide refuge to the denizens of the human village should a volcanic eruption occur. Since the process of going to the Netherworld and back is compared to reincarnation, this would mean anybody who enters it would die and then come back to life later on (after all, you need to die in order to reincarnate). We even see an example human villager represented in this cycle as ‘dying’ and coming back to life in a simplistic chart.

Finally, as a bit of supporting evidence, even the plants and animals within the Netherworld are dead.

As for characters resisting it, basically every main character who has gone to the Netherworld did not die; they continued to live in a location that kills all living beings within it. This is quite obviously resistance to death manipulation.

Now for the counterpoints.

“Yuyuko is saying she’ll grant refuge to the human villagers in that they’ll die, go to the Netherworld naturally, and then she’ll let them go”

There’s a lot wrong with this assumption, and covering it will also cover a few other debunks brought up.

First of all, that’s not what ‘take refuge’ means; It means to seek shelter or protection from potential harm. So, if the villagers have already been killed by the eruption, what exactly are they taking refuge from?

Secondly, the Netherworld doesn’t work like that. If someone is to die naturally, they must first go to Higan and face the Yama’s judgment. From there, they will be shuffled off to the Netherworld, Hell, or Heaven depending on their actions in life. For Yuyuko to grant the human villagers refuge in the Netherworld after they face the Yama’s judgment (as they would have to after being killed in an eruption), this would mean every single villager would have to have lived a life so identical to one another that they all end up in the same afterlife; Obviously a ridiculous assumption.

But let’s say that that does happen, somehow; Turns out this argument still doesn’t work, because it also hinges on the idea that Yuyuko will let them go after a while (she does just straight up say that in the original text, so it isn’t a permanent stay). Thing is, for those who go to the Netherworld post-judgment, they literally cannot leave until they reach nirvana or reincarnate; To assume that Yuyuko could make this a mere temporary stay when the mechanics of how the afterlife in Touhou works directly contradicts this is absurd.

However, if the human villagers are merely invited to the Netherworld and ‘die’ there before coming back, they never face the Yama’s judgment and are free to leave whenever they wish; Therefore, the interpretation that I and other supporters believe (that Yuyuko grants still-living villagers refuge in the Netherworld) avoids the issues of potentially differentiating afterlives, the idea of a permanent stay, and the fact that Mal’s interpretation misrepresents the text (taking refuge from something that already killed you is really funny, but unfortunately unusable in an actual debate).

“The eruption would kill the villagers before Yuyuko or anyone else could evacuate them”

Also wrong for numerous reasons! Volcanic eruptions don’t just kill anybody instantaneously; They take a long time to occur, or even directly threaten nearby settlements. But more than that, the main concern for the human village is stated to be food; They cannot grow any crops with volcanic ash around, after all. While food shortage is a serious issue, it still leaves ample time for alternate solutions; Starvation takes days to occur, and of course food reserves exist.

But let’s say this is as dire as Mal makes it out to be and the villagers have like 10 minutes before they all die horribly; After all, Gensokyo is spatially pretty small, so they wouldn’t have anywhere to go. Problem is, Yuyuko can literally open portals to the Netherworld whenever she wants, and virtually the entire non-human village population is capable of flight. Even in this hypothetical doomsday scenario that is in no way stated or implied by the text, there would still be ample opportunity to get the human villagers to safety.

Actually, I think these were the only two actual points that were made? Everything else was just saying the reasons I and other supporters provided were just flowery language, hyperbole, headcanon, etc. No real arguments or evidence, just ‘you’re wrong and bad and no I will not elaborate’. So if this seems one-sided then I guess that’s because it is?

 

[Malomtek]

"I don't want to get into long bickering arguments" proceeds to start a long bickering argument

The argument existed way before this, bro.

We are literally just holding you to the same standards as everyone else on this site.

And yet you people insist on badgering me and throwing every type of insinuation and well-poisoning tactic against me, while complaining if I punch back in any capacity. "Same standards" my foot.

Here's my own recap, if anyone is interested:

Here's the recap, particularly of the "netherworld death inducement stuff" (since I don't particularly care for the rest, and I'll let multiple staff deal with the Sanzu River nonsense):

The current argument begins with:

As you can see here, YesMokou is arguing that due to Yuyuko saying that "being in the netherworld is the same as being dead", and someone asking whether passing on to the netherworld and back would be identical to the process of reincarnation, it means that the netherworld has insta-death auto-kill properties against living beings, and therefore being able to enter the netherworld and stay alive in the process means resistance to death manipulation.

My own argument is that these all amount to little more than poetic manners of saying that the netherworld is the "land of the dead", and that someone asking about the netherworld and it's relation to reincarnation is entirely in relation to the passing on of Human Villagers in the wake of a cataclysmic volcanic eruption and its fallout.

The counter-argument is that volcanic eruptions and emissions don't kill people that fast, and therefore the Human Villagers would have had time to seek shelters, so not all of them would die, and I argue that that's irrelevant because Gensokyo basically is an island rimmed with mountains, the Human Village is an unfortified settlement surrounded by monsters, and the humans have nowhere to go before the volcanic effects catch up to them anyway. Even if some of them did find shelter in the living world, it would be irrelevant to the actual workings of the netherworld anyway, as the rest would be either dying or dead.

Somebody (I don't remember exactly who) advanced an argument that one that enters the netherworld through the process of death has to go through the reincarnation cycle to leave, while someone who enters the netherworld simply as a "guest" can leave whenever they want to. I argue (reasonably) that this undercuts the "death resistances" argumentation, because a "guest" being able to leave a netherworld whenever implies strongly against said netherworld having magic insta-kill properties.

There's also this nice dilemma I brought up:

1. The netherworld has magical insta-death auto-kill properties on living beings, meaning that it would be an absurdity for Yuyuko to attempt to take still-living humans into refuge into the netherworld, where they'll just die anyway.

2. The netherworld doesn't have those properties, which means that nobody gets resistances simply from entering it and staying alive.

Angelzewolf has also advanced the argument that the netherworld only temporarily kills people, and upon leaving the netherworld they are un-killed. I argue (reasonably) that this is pure headcanon, and that this also kneecaps the notion of "death resistances" for simply entering the netherworld and appearing to stay alive, since anyone entering (like the protagonists) could also just be "temporarily dead" for the remainder of their stay.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Don't call me 'bro'. That's the last I'll be saying here.

 

[Malomtek]

Don't call me 'bro'. That's the last I'll be saying here.

Okay, bro.

 

[Shmooply]

oh my ******* god can you two stop being at eachothers ******* throats for one ******* thread youre acting like a grumpy elderly couple

 

[Malomtek]

oh my ******* god can you two stop being at eachothers ******* throats for one ******* thread youre acting like a grumpy elderly couple

Don't think you're not involved in this, what with your attempted call-outs against me.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, bro.

Stop. I'm asking you for some basic decency and you respond with the equivalent of a toddler going 'I'm not touching you~'.

oh my ******* god can you two stop being at eachothers ******* throats for one ******* thread youre acting like a grumpy elderly couple

You're not helping.

 

[Malomtek]

Stop. I'm asking you for some basic decency and you respond with the equivalent of a toddler going 'I'm not touching you~'.

Don't give me that "basic decency" crap, bro. You've accused me of "lying", "fabricating evidence", and (deliberately) "misinterpreting everything" in several threads just like this one. You clearly don't respect me, and I don't see why I should respect you outside of basic decorum rules.