To Mal:
Iol
Is it wise to do this when Saikou isn't around to further his points? Dude hasn't been on in over a month.
Don't know anything about the verse but this sounds like it's one of those times when fiction uses the word "infinite" or "endless" to represent that the place is constantly changing and making it an endless maze type of thing. Instead of it being the actual size of ∞.
And this makes sense to me.
Not to try sound like an edgelord, but for the love of holy spirit, what exactly is agreeable up there without your interpretation of how Kaguya's linking feat works not really aligning with your statement of "Not knowing anything about the verse".
No. The corridor does not have a variable size; it is repeatedly stated to be made of infinitely-linked pieces of the space-time continuum, or just outright infinite and endless (with character statements about not seeing the end and the like supporting this). Nothing about its size ever changes.
Saikou has demonstrated that he does not even understand the context under which the feat was performed (part of his debunk was that the ship started in Makai, when in fact it started in a completely separate dimension), so I don't understand why you're just blindly agreeing here.
Even 2 meters of spacetime are "infinitely linked" because a continuum, by definition, has infinite parts (point coordinates) to it.
Eirin Yagokoro EXITS | ||
|---|---|---|
| Yukari | この廊下はおかしいわ。 いくらなんでもこんなに長い筈がない。 | This corridor is strange. It can't possibly be this long. |
| Reimu | 外が見たことが無い世界になってる！ | The outside's turned into some world I've never seen! |
| Reimu | 長い廊下ももう終った見たいね そろそろ観念したらどう？ | It looks like that long corridor has ended now. How about giving up soon? |
| Eirin | ここは偽の月と地上の間。 さっきの永い廊下は、偽の月と地上を 結ぶ偽物の通路。 貴方達は偽満月が生み出した幻像に 騙されてここまで来たのよ。 | This place is between the false moon and the Earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two. You two were fooled by an illusion that the false full moon produced, and came here. |
|---|
| Eirin | そう、外よ。 貴方達は永い廊下に導かれてここまで来た。 どう？ 外の空気は。 | Yes, the outside. You were led through that eternal corridor, and came here. So, how's the air outside? |
|---|
| Eirin Yagokoro EXITS | ||
|---|---|---|
| Sakuya | でも、さっきから大分進んでいるけど……。 この廊下、終わりが見えません！ | We've gone so far by now, but... I can't see an end to this corridor! |
| Sakuya | 廊下は終ったみたいだけど、 ここは一体……。 | It looks like the corridor has ended, but where on earth is this...? |
Might as well go on without him, in that case. I know for sure that @Eficiente has some (more) things to say about infinite speed Touhou.
Without further context, maybe. But there are literally numerous statements made in the exact same scene that you're referencing that refer to an infinite spatial extent; "Lady Kaguya's endless corridor spell", "a corridor that continues endlessly", "breaking through this endless-corridor spell", "this infinite trap". This isn't even including the numerous statements outside of AoCF.
Big problem here. That 'indeterminate distance' you're referring to? It ******* is the infinite corridor. Hell, that's literally in the text itself; "That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two."
Those mentions of "spells" and "traps" makes it sound more like the corridor's "infinity" is more due to Kaguya's weird spatial manipulation powers, with very little to do with it's actual size.
They weren't at the "false moon", which the corridor is supposed to connect to the Eientei estate, so in real terms, they haven't crossed any quantifiable amount of distance.
Marisa and Sanae were two of the characters present for that feat, and neither of them have spacetime bending powers, and nothing within the game itself signifies they used any special abilities to perform the feat, they simply would have had to do this of their own ability.
...It literally traveled to the edge of an infinite location; that IS the ******* indication that it has infinite speed.
2 big issues with this. First is that, if you state that a character used one of their abilities in an instance, you would need evidence of that being the case. Second is that, of the three characters to perform the feat, both Sanae and Marisa lack any sort of hax that would let them catch up to the ship or go to Hokkai without movement speed. No spacehax, no dimensional travel, no teleportation, you get the idea. They couldn't make their goal of catching up to the ship any easier even if they wanted to.
It has an infinite size specifically because of the spells used to make it that size, Mal. The entire POINT of Kaguya's involvement here is to take pre-existing space, and and stretch it to an infinite distance to keep out intruders. Hell, if you read the scans, you would know CDS outright states this. It doesn't matter why the corridor is infinite, just that it is infinite at the time the protagonists crossed it; which it was.
The text says "This place (referring to the location the protags end up in post-corridor crossing) is between the false moon and earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two". This very clearly means that the distance the protagonists crossed (the earth --> unknown space location) was what was connected by the corridor, NOT the earth and false moon. So the protagonists really did cross the entire infinite distance and not some unknowable amount.
| 失われた命が一時的に戻ってくると言われる戻り橋。命が戻るくらいだから弾幕も戻る。 | A returning-bridge that's said to temporarily return lost lives. If it can bring back entire lives, it can bring back danmaku no problem. | |
| どんどん過去に戻っていくと、こんな感じの弾幕になるんだな。 | So this is what danmaku looks like while you're gradually moving back to the past, huh? | |
| しかし私のマスタースパークでは、過去に戻ろうが未来へ進もうが印象は変わらんだろう。つまり、光の速さは時空を越えて不変なのだ。やっぱりレーザー最強だな。 | But even if you go back to the past or forward to the future, my Master Spark's impression ought to be exactly the same. In other words, the speed of light is unchanging throughout all of space-time.[1] Man, lasers really are the best. |
Doesn't Marisa have gravity manipulation - which is basically just a more limited form of spacetime manipulation anyway - and Sanae have "miracle"/probability manipulation as well? They could have used those to "help" themselves along the way.
The "location" isn't "infinite", as they traveled there with clearly finite speed. It's like claiming a character has "infinite" speed because he got to the "edge" of an "infinite" realm, even though he's shown walking there on foot.
What were those "two MFTL+ feats" again? Moving across a random dimension with wallpaper lights, and something else I can't remember right now.
Or it could just be some weird spacetime gobbledygook and the space is constantly "stretching". Breaking out of the "infinite corridor", if anything, amounts to little more than space(time) manipulation resistance.
Why are you being this weirdly pedantic about word choices? The corridor is said to be a "false passage" connecting the "two", meaning the Earth and the "false moon". There's no reason why some random location out in space would be part of the "two". They're not physically present on the "false moon". Therefore, they're not at the end of the corridor. Simple.
It's never mentioned, shown, or implied that Marisa used gravity manip in any way to gain an advantage, and to my knowledge her gravity manip isn't something she could use herself to help within this context, largely in firepower application. Sanae on the other hand, would not be able to have used her miracle abilities in this instance, as complex miracles, something such as, moving at infinite speed, "require days of preparation". There is also never a point when Sanae implies, states, or is shown using her miracle abilities to reach these speeds.
Why are already accepted feats and scans that are unrelated to the debate of infinite speed being mentioned? If you wish to see the scans or proof of these feats, please look at the verse's admittedly outdated blog, in the "Lightspeed and Beyond" section, as these are fairly old and well known. If you're unaware of even these basic, entry level speed feats, why are you here arguing in regards to other feats with nothing but pure speculation? I genuinely wish to know.
Your unwarranted, unnecessary condescension aside, I can't be forced to remember every little thing about 2hu. And since any implication of a finite limit to speed works against "infinite speed" Touhou, these "already accepted feats and scans" are most certainly relevant.
Background scrolling is not an indication of speed, Mal. We've been over this over and over again. Do not bring it up again, and I will ignore it if you continue to do so anyways.
It is derailing, the topic here is the validity of infinite speed feats. I'll keep ignoring these responses until you actually address the topic at hand.
Source? You made a claim ("the space is constantly stretching"), so where's your evidence for this fun little headcanon you have? Because I've read and reread the scripts for IN and AoCF dozens of times now, and I can't seem to find any evidence of this claim. So you certainly seem to just be making shit up.
You can't be ******* serious. The phrase "connecting the two" is explicitly referring to the earth and the 'space' the protagonists end up in; Eirin makes that statement WHILE IN THE SPACE ITSELF, and you literally see in the stage itself that the 'end' of the corridor leads to this space as well. Y'know what, here's a helpful little illustration I made that'll hopefully explain this concept more in depth.
Breaking news, fiction is unrealistic, more at 11.
I wouldn't say baseline series feats are "little things", they're the foundations for which the debating of this series are built upon. If you wish to defend, or oppose, a verse, you need to at least have a good grasp on it's fundamentals. It's incredibly reductive to demand of someone the most entry level feats you could find with a simple search of the Touhou blog page, but it seems you didn't care to go that far. All I ask is that if you wish to poke holes in Infinite Speed Touhou, go ahead, if someone proves the verse isn't Infinite, great, be my guest, but as is, you are taking swings at something you haven't taken the time to fully comprehend.
These things are unrelated, not because I "want them to be", but because they hold no stake in the conversation of if these infinite speed feats are valid or not. And no, these "Just past the speed of light" top speeds you're trying to float are not the peak of the series, there are a handful of MFTL+ feats that also exist and were appended to these profiles for years, and have never been debunked. You cannot apply the existence of a FTL feat from the series to dispel the existence of an Infinite speed feat within the same series, that is simply not how things work.
Wall of text territory AND close to page 3 territory. Yea, go for it.
It is when you're trying to portray "infinite" speed, in the sense that it works completely against it.
No it's not derailing. They were brought up specifically within the context of the validity of supposedly "infinite" speed feats. Things don't stop being relevant just because you want them to.
Moving across a random dimension with wallpaper lights isn't a quantifiable feat by any stretch.
What evidence do you have for your own headcanon? What I've said is far more valid considering how the corridor actually "plays out" than what you've said.
Really, everything is irrelevant compared to the fact that, according to you, the "infinite corridor" ends at some random point in space. According to the text itself, it ends at the "false moon".You can't be ******* serious. The phrase "connecting the two" is explicitly referring to the earth and the 'space' the protagonists end up in; Eirin makes that statement WHILE IN THE SPACE ITSELF, and you literally see in the stage itself that the 'end' of the corridor leads to this space as well. Y'know what, here's a helpful little illustration I made that'll hopefully explain this concept more in depth.
"Fiction is unrealistic anyway" isn't a good-enough excuse for a self-contradicting "infinite corridor" feat in which the corridor in question just ends at some random point in space.
So you admit background scrolling is bunk? Good, me too. Let's move on then.
I've been providing evidence the entire goddamn time. It's your turn. And in case you forgot what the discussion rules say, well,
What? No the **** it doesn't. I'm looking at the text right now and it doesn't say that. Like genuinely, this just. isn't a thing that exists. You're completely fabricating evidence at this point.
Where does this talk about "fully comprehending" something come from? All I needed were some memory-refreshers, that's all.
And I was asking about those (supposed) MFTL+ feats as well, but I guess people aren't able/willing to post that for some reason.
I didn't relate that statement at all to background scrolling. Please don't put words in my mouth.
You're only evidence is that "well these people say it's endless/infinite", which is then immediately contradicted by the corridor either ending at some random location in space, or at some "false moon".I've been providing evidence the entire goddamn time. It's your turn. And in case you forgot what the discussion rules say, well,
Burden of proof is on you here.
What even is this?
