Amitabha-Sized Touhou Revisions (Previous Thread Merging)

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

All of this seems fine, but for Acausality, are those humans the only one's who believe in them? Because if there are other humans than something happening to the single village wouldn't cause their existence problems would it?.

Yes. The human village as it is referred to in Touhou is the only population of humans within Gensokyo, save for the rare individual who exists outside of there (which is like. 3-4 people at most). In case that gives some doubt, characters like Sumireko, Maribel, and Renko all believe in youkai in the outside world, but their belief alone isn't enough to sustain the existence of youkai, so it needs to be a much larger number of people (which is exactly what the human village is).

Thank you for the evaluation, though Confluctor said they'd try to evaluate it on their own later, so I'll wait for their input before going ahead with any edits.

edit: beaten to the punch by shmooply, gdi

 

[Shmooply]

just accept that ill always be faster than you already
Oh right, forgot to include scans that states that the existence of all youkai is dependent on the human village.

Yukari's pseudo-biography in PMiSS says that she was the one who came up with the "Youkai Expansion" Project. She wrapped Gensokyo in a barrier so that youkai could have a place to exist, since the humans in Gensokyo still believed in youkai and other supernatural phenomena, while the rest of the world didn't, which was making youkais weaker and weaker:

Spoiler: Scan in question

五百年以上前の逸話である.

人口の増加により、人間に押され気味だった幻想郷の妖怪の勢力を回復する為に、紫が立案、実行した。

これ以前の幻想郷は単なる人里離れた山奥に過ぎなかったが、幻想郷の周りに幻と実体の境界を創り、論理的に世界を創ってしまおうという計画である。
幻想郷の中を幻の世界、外の世界を実体の世界とする事で、外の世界で勢力が弱まってきた妖怪達を自動的に幻想郷に呼び込んでしまうという画期的なものである。

これにより、日本の外の国からも妖怪が移民してくる様になった。

境界の効果は現在も続いている。

また、この計画の賢い所は、外の世界で妖怪が消えれば消えるほど、幻想郷では妖怪が強くなる事だ。

外の世界が人間の天下である以上、幻想郷では妖怪の天下が続いている。

A story from over 500 years ago.

The project refers to a plan designed and implemented by Yukari in order to restore power to the youkai of Gensokyo, who felt pressured by the increase in the human population.

Until then Gensokyo was merely an isolated mountain town, but she planned to create the boundary of phantasm and substance around Gensokyo, thus logically creating a new world.

By establishing Gensokyo as an illusionary world, and the outside as the real world, the youkai weakened by the outside world would naturally flock to Gensokyo; this was a truly epochal event.

At this time, it seems that youkai from outside of Japan immigrated to Gensokyo, as well.

The effects of the boundary continue even now.

The cleverness of the plan lies in allowing youkai to disappear in the outside world while permitting them to thrive within Gensokyo.

As long as the outside world remains in the hands of the humans, Gensokyo will be ruled by the youkai.

In Volume 5, Chapter 48 of Forbidden Scrollery, Akyuu wrote that the human village would be unable to exist without youkai. Marisa elaborates on this, saying that there's a theory going around that the youkai sages created Gensokyo because the increasingly skeptic and scientifically-based outside world was threatening the existence of youkai.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, Griffin.

 

[Shmooply]

Yukari's pseudo-biography in PMiSS says that she was the one who came up with the "Youkai Expansion" Project. She wrapped Gensokyo in a barrier so that youkai could have a place to exist, since the humans in Gensokyo still believed in youkai and other supernatural phenomena, while the rest of the world didn't, which was making youkais weaker and weaker:

Edited the scan in. I unfortunately couldn't find any others that state that youkai rely on the humans in Gensokyo to survive at the moment, so I apologize for the long wait.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Supporting scans on youkai relying on humans can be find in Touhou Suzunaan Chapter 48.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Le bumpe

Really, we're just waiting on Conflcutor, especially since we need at least one more approval on the Sanzu River stuff.

 

[Shmooply]

Supporting scans on youkai relying on humans can be find in Touhou Suzunaan Chapter 48.

So the Touhou wiki had the wrong sources listed... again, good to know. Thanks for the help, though. This should be enough proof that youkai rely on the human village in Gensokyo to exist.
(Also edited it into my previous post)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So uh

Is it too late to bring up new evidence in favor of death resistance?

Not related to the Netherworld, but so much as touching a ghost can cause death. Given how numerous characters have physically fought Yuyuko and survived, this is obviously resistance to death manip. Also gives Yuyu passive death manip, which is neat.

I'll need to go back and find any and all instances of characters physically touching Yuyuko, ughhhhhhHHHHHHHHH

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Actually, Ghosts can passively kill people near them, no need to touch them.

On the other hand, ghosts simply cause everything around to die: any human nearby would be drawn to their death. Although in Yuyuko's case, she seemed to have the power to manipulate death even before she became a ghost.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

So the Touhou wiki had the wrong sources listed... again, good to know. Thanks for the help, though. This should be enough proof that youkai rely on the human village in Gensokyo to exist.
(Also edited it into my previous post)

No problemo, I for some reasons can't edit the scans in lol, so yeah thanks for editing the scans, I can only tell the source, for some reason at the time I was posting that.

 

[Shmooply]

and you found this AFTER grif agreed to a possible resistance to death hax

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Context?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, Ghosts can passively kill people near them, no need to touch them.

Ohhhhhhhh ************

Alright. We should probably get a list of everybody who has ever come into contact with Yuyuko. It'll take a while, probably.

Thank you for finding this, this is honestly massive.

and you found this AFTER grif agreed to a possible resistance to death hax

shut up i already feel like an idiot about it ;w;

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Alright. We should probably get a list of everybody who has ever come into contact with Yuyuko. It'll take a while, probably.

A lot I think, one of the example are when Yuyuko comes over to the "tell scary story" at Touhou Suzunaan chapter...I forgot, basically a lot, since a lot of people came to the party.

 

[Shmooply]

Considering how prominent she is, it'll take an absurd amount of time to find out which character has been near her or fought her.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The fighting games and Cheating Detective Satori should be easy to look through, at least.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I don't think so, she is kinda a neet. Anyway I leave the rest to y'all lol, kinda busy rn.

 

[Shmooply]

I'll join in (Characters who have fought or were near Yuyuko)

• Reimu (Numerous reasons)
• Marisa (Numerous reasons)
• Sanae (Fought her in Ten Desires)
• Satori (Hung around with her during CTS)
• Rin (Same as Satori)
• Aya (Fought her in STB and SWR)
• Mononobe (Stood near her in HM)
• Toyosatomimi (Same as above, also her tomb was located in the Netherworld, so...)
• Byakuren (Same as above)
• Koishi (Same as above)
• Mamizou (Same as above)
• Kokoro (Same as above)
• Yukari (They're literally friends like come on man)
• Sakuya (Fought her in IaMP)
• Remilia (Same as above)
• Suika (Same as above)
• Komachi (Fought her in SWR)
• Iku (Same as above)
• Tenshi (Same as above)
• Seija (Possible resistance. It's assumed Yuyuko was one of the many youkai trying to capture her)
• Eiki (Eiki is the one who gave Yuyuko her rank, they also interact in PoFV)
• Ran (Visited the Netherworld before. Was near both Yuyuko and Youmu)
• Wriggle ("Fought" Yuyuko and Youmu in IN)
• Mystia (Same as above)
• Keine (Same as above)
• Reisen and Tewi (Same as above)
• Eirin (Same as above)

Will update later.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll join in (Characters who have fought or were near Yuyuko)

• Reimu (Numerous reasons)
• Marisa (Numerous reasons)
• Sanae (Fought her in Ten Desires)
• Satori (Hung around with her during CTS)
• Rin (Same as Satori)
• Aya (Fought her in STB)
• Mononobe (Stood near her in HM)
• Toyosatomimi (Same as above, also her tomb was located in the Netherworld, so...)
• Ichirin and Unzan (Same as Mononobe)
• Byakuren (Same as above)
• Nitori (Same as above)
• Koishi (Same as above)
• Mamizou (Same as above)
• Kokoro (Same as above)

Will update later.

Lemme stop you right there. I assume you're getting the HM cast resistances from her stage cameo, right? That should not apply to everyone, since not everyone actually goes to that stage in their story routes. Unless you're referring to a different scene?

Rest are fine though.

 

[Shmooply]

Lemme stop you right there. I assume you're getting the HM cast resistances from her stage cameo, right? That should not apply to everyone, since not everyone actually goes to that stage in their story routes. Unless you're referring to a different scene?

Double-checked. Yea, some of them don't visit the masoleum during the events of HM, so I'll remove them from the list.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So the list of everybody who has come near Yuyuko, as far as I can tell:

Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, Yukari, Satori, Orin, Alice, Sanae, Patchouli, Remilia, Suika, Aya, Seija, Reisen, Iku, Tenshi, Eiki, Komachi, the Prismriver Sisters, Seiga, Tojiko, Yoshika, Miko, Futo, Renko, Maribel, Sumireko, Kanako, Wriggle, Mystia, Keine, Tewi, Ran, Chen, Kasen, Minoriko, Mamizou, Momiji, Kokoro, Koishi, Akyuu, Kosuzu, Nitori, Suwako, Utsuho, Sekibanki, Hatate, Nazrin, Rumia, Seiran, Ringo, Yuuka, Shinmyoumaru, Hecatia, Kogasa, Aunn, Ichirin, Hina, and Letty.

I left out Hourai immortals and fairies for obvious reasons.

god damn you ZUN for including so many party scenes :v

 

[Antvasima]

So what do our staff members still have to evaluate here?

Also, didn't we topic-ban you and Malomtek from Touhou threads until both of you have managed to get along sufficiently well via a private conversation, Fujiwara?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Was I topic banned? I don't recall that being brought up, though I'm sorry if it was and I forgot. In that case I can stop posting until a more appropriate time.

As for what remains to be evaluated, we have gathered new evidence for resistance to death manipulation that should be looked at, and while everything else has been given the go-ahead by Griffin, I recall Confluctor saying that they would try to evaluate it in the future, so we should at least wait for them. Additionally, Griffin believed that we should get more opinions on the Sanzu River crossing feat due to it being significantly more controversial.

 

[Antvasima]

Was I topic banned? I don't recall that being brought up, though I'm sorry if it was and I forgot. In that case I can stop posting until a more appropriate time.

Yes, other staff members wanted to ban both of you completely for constantly bickering with each other in a very annoying manner, but I mitigated it to a topic ban that will last until you manage to straighten out your problems and reach agreements for rules of conduct via a private PM conversation, and then together tell us when you have managed to do so via the RVR thread.

As for what remains to be evaluated, we have gathered new evidence for resistance to death manipulation that should be looked at, and while everything else has been given the go-ahead by Griffin, I recall Confluctor saying that they would try to evaluate it in the future, so we should at least wait for them. Additionally, Griffin believed that we should get more opinions on the Sanzu River crossing feat due to it being significantly more controversial.

Okay. Can somebody assemble the longer in-depth explanation for all of that into a single post please, to simplify the evaluation process for Griffin, Confluctor, and other staff members here, please?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I see. I apologize for forgetting the mention of a topic ban.

Everything within this spoiler should be given a second look, especially the infinite speed part.

Spoiler: Everything else that needs to be evaluated (really long)

Acrobatics

So as far as I’m aware, this applies to the main cast primarily due to the ability to weave in and out of complex danmaku patterns while flying (which, AFAIK, would qualify as self-momentum), as well as air dashes, front flips, and the like in the grounded fighters. With that in mind, the fact that I applied it to characters such as Tenryu or Chang’e is pretty blatantly wrong, given how they don’t engage in spell card duels (or any fights at all, for that matter). So remove acrobatics from them and all other non-combatants. I’d also like to add acrobatics to Okina, because while I originally thought applying acrobatics to a canon wheelchair user was kind of cruel, she does in fact show the same skill in dodging danmaku in spite of that, putting her on par with everyone else.

Fairies

Add Immortality (Types 3 & 4). While they do have type 8, fairies can still die; they just come back to life later on. Akyuu also mentions this in PMiSS, stating that they immediately resurrect after death. It’s not like we can just leave it at type 8, either; the immortality page makes it pretty clear that type 8 has to grant at least one other form of immortality:

"The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise."

Type 3 is from their already accepted High-Mid regen.

Also, the key for the species page should be changed to say “At least 10-C, up to 9-B” since we know of the existence of fairies that are only a few inches tall. This would also be a reason to add Small Size (Type 1) to the species page, with the specification that it only applies to some fairies.

Phantoms, Fairies, and Prismrivers

Grouping these all together for convenience.

In PoFV, Komachi says that fairies exist in a similar state to phantoms, in that they have no lifespan. She also says the same about the Prismrivers. Lacking a lifespan is pretty obviously Immortality (Type 1), which should be applied to all phantoms, fairies, and the Prismrivers. And of course, since Komachi can outright see lifespans, she’s definitely an accurate source on this.

I’m aware fairy type 1 immortality is somewhat contradicted by PMiSS saying they are short-lived, but given how it immediately goes on to talk about how reckless fairies are due to their immortality, the context seems to be that they just don’t care if they die, not that they have naturally short lifespans.

Ability Cards

Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and Clairvoyance from Youmu's card granting you half of Youmu's phantom half and from Nazrin's card granting you her ability. Applies to Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, and Sakuya's optional equipment tabs.

All Youkai + Reimu & Marisa

Type 1 Acausality, as none of them were affected by the human village being removed from history. Youkai are reliant on human belief to sustain their existence, so naturally removing the source of that belief would erase youkai from reality. Except that obviously didn’t happen, so this proves that youkai are unaffected by changes to the past.

Reimu and Marisa, being two humans who do in fact rely on the human village (especially so for Marisa, given her family lives there), should also get this from, y’know, not dying.

Beast Youkai

PMiSS describes them as being resistant to mental attacks, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation.

Applies to Chen, Ran, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Shou, Kyouko, Mamizou, Seiran, and Ringo. Also applies to Yuuma since she should be a beast youkai similarly to Saki and Yachie.

17.5 Cast

Reimu, Marisa, Kanako, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre should get Water Manipulation, Absorption, and Healing, since the central mechanic of 17.5 is absorbing water to heal yourself and power your spell cards. The video itself doesn’t really make it apparent but the mechanics are explained more in depth in the video description.

Still More Resistances

I know I already covered some resistances above, but this is for stuff that applies to a big chunk of the cast. I'm not gonna explain literally every character's appearance on the lists below because that'd take an eternity.

Two things first, though. I’m not giving resistances for fighting game characters unless the resistance comes from a story mode, otherwise we’d get an overly inflated number of resistances. Secondly, I am 100% positive I missed some characters due to how hard it is to look through every bit of canon material to determine who’s been where and who’s fought who. If you see anyone who’s missing from a list, please say so, and keep these resistances in mind for future reference should we find another character who would qualify.

Anyone who's canonically fought or interacted with phantoms should get Resistance to Empathic and Mind Manipulation, since phantoms passively affect the minds and emotions of anyone near them, and the characters listed below have no indication that they were ever affected. For the record, I'm not including vengeful spirits, ghosts, poltergeists, or dream souls, since I can't confidently say they're similar enough to phantoms to have the same physiology. I'm also only going by characters who were visibly near phantoms at some point, otherwise I'd have to make a ton of assumptions. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Rumia, Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Alice, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Suika, Komachi, Tenshi, Letty, Chen, Ran, Suika, Wriggle, Mystia, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Mokou, Aki, Eiki, Shizuha, Nitori, Hina, Aya, Orin, Utsuho, Hatate, Kogasa, Luna Child, Sunny Milk, Star Sapphire, Byakuren, Nazrin, Nue, Ichirin, Shou, Joon, Shion, and Kanako.

Then we have Doremy's dream souls, which can instantly put a person to sleep and send their soul to the Dream World. Since these characters get hit by her dream souls repeatedly in Doremy's AoCF story route and are fine, they should get Resistance to Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and BFR. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Byakuren, Ichirin, Miko, Futo, Mokou, Yukari, Nitori, Kokoro, Joon, Shion, and Sumireko.

Reimu was affected by a dream soul in WaHH, but keep in mind that the chapter of WaHH where this happened was released 2 years prior to AoCF (2015 vs 2017), so it's likely that she developed a resistance over time.

We also have Tenshi attempting to absorb temperament in the form of mist from all across Gensokyo and the Otherworlds in SWR. According to Komachi, temperament is phantoms, and in PMiSS we’re told that phantoms are souls, so Tenshi was absorbing souls in this case (as further demonstrated by phantoms disappearing from the Netherworld). In case you need more evidence to prove these are souls being absorbed, Tenshi also calls it ‘the essence of all living things’. The protagonists, while affected, are still able to fight normally and shrug off the effects for a long time, so they should all have Resistance to Soul Absorption. But it doesn’t stop there. Youmu’s statement makes it clear that this was affecting all living things, not just the SWR cast. Since obviously nobody died or had their souls permanently affected as a result of this, this means literally ******* everyone should have resistance to soul absorption. There are a few exceptions however, such as those that did not exist at the time or were not in Gensokyo, who I’ll list below.

Tenshi (doesn’t count since she was the one doing the absorbing), Benben, Yatsuhashi, Raiko, Sumireko, Aunn, Narumi, Maribel, Renko.

Jesus. Should the universal resistance not go through it should at least still apply to the SWR cast, minus Tenshi.

Next is Hell and Former Hell. In WaHH, it's explained that as a soul travels deeper underground, they'll begin to be purified and ultimately crystalize. Considering Hell is about as deep as you can get, it should be more than deep enough for souls to begin to crystalize (or already be crystalized), so everyone who's visited Hell should get Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Transmutation, and Purification (Type 2) (not Junko's brand of purification, sadly). Additionally, Kasen states that the air in Former Hell is more toxic than the air at a geyser that was emitting poisonous gas, so everyone who's been there should get Resistance to Poison Manipulation (only applies to Former Hell, not any other hell). The list of everyone who's been to Hell or Former Hell is as follows:

Former Hell: Reimu, Marisa, Aya, Sanae, Kanako, Parsee, Suika, Yuugi, Satori, Orin, Okuu, Koishi, Hatate, Ichirin, Murasa, Byakuren, Miko, Shinmyoumaru, Sumireko, Joon, Shion, and Kasen.

Hell: Everyone in the Former Hell list, plus Youmu, Komachi, Eiki, Tenshi, Hecatia, Clownpiece, and Suiki.

Additionally, Reimu, Marisa, Orin, and Utsuho should get Resistance to Extreme Heat. Shouldn't be hard to explain, they all fight while right next to a giant lava lake, and Orin states the temperatures are so hot that the things that burn there don’t even leave ashes behind. Sanae and Cirno also get this since they fight Utsuho inside the reactor core in their Hisoutensoku routes, and both mention how overwhelming the heat is, though they fight Utsuho without issue. Finally, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre also get this due to fighting Utsuho in 17.5, while surrounded on both sides by flames.

Next is the Forest of Magic, which is both stated to change the nature of anything that lives there, the air there is filled with poisonous spores that worsen the health of anyone there, and there are mushrooms that can cause hallucinations just by being near them. Now, the first statement is a bit vague, but since the example given is of a regular jizo statue turning into a magician (Narumi), it seems more like transformation than anything else. You could argue Narumi doesn't resist it because she was obviously transformed, but the way I see it is that she didn't have any innate resistances as a jizo statue since she was just an inanimate object, but now that she's alive she does have her own resistances. The resistances for characters who've gone to the Forest of Magic are Resistance to Transformation, Poison Manipulation, and Perception Manipulation. The list of everyone who's been to the Forest of Magic is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Cirno, Sakuya, Remilia, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Aya, Komachi, Satori, Sumireko, Narumi, Mai, Satono, Rinnosuke, Mamizou, Aki, Eternity, Star Sapphire, Luna Child, and Sunny Milk.

Finally, we have the Netherworld, which Yuyuko says being there is equal to being dead. Furthermore, Yuyuko compares the process of visiting and leaving the Netherworld to that of reincarnation, supporting the idea that the Netherworld does in fact kill whatever exists there (since in order to reincarnate, you need to die). Considering numerous characters have visited the Netherworld and were obviously still alive while doing so, they should all get Resistance to Death Manipulation. This obviously doesn’t apply to anyone who is already dead (like Yuyuko).

Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, Saigyou Ayakashi, Yukari, Alice, Patchouli, Remilia, Aya, Sanae, Seija, Chen, Ran, Satori, Orin, Reisen, Komachi, and Iku.

The Netherworld and Heaven

A re-upgrade for the cosmology: not too long ago, the idea that the Netherworld and Heaven are infinite was rejected because Akyuu's statement comparing the Netherworld to Hell was seen as inaccurate or just a rumor. However, this is no longer the case, since in the references section of PMiSS, it's made very clear that Akyuu got her information on the afterlives from The Ministry of Right and Wrong, which oversees the afterlives, so considering this information came from them, we can now confidently say that "the Netherworld is larger than Hell'' is an accurate statement.

What does this change? Well, it gives us a more concrete understanding of the cosmology, but more importantly, Tenshi shaking the Heavens and threatening to destroy all of it, which was originally placed at 4-A/3-B, is now H3-A, some very important evidence for Touhou keeping its current ratings. It also further strengthens the argument for Doremy’s universal dream creation, since she can clearly recreate the Netherworld.

Universal Re-Scaling

As much as I strongly believe in universal Touhou, I have to admit our current profiles do a shit job of explaining why Touhou is universal. Time to fix that.

Suika: Just remove the canopy of the heavens feat, pretty sure a vague ‘shattering the sky’ statement caps out at like. Tier 6 in most circumstances.

Miko: Senkai creation is universal again, maybe: one thing that we all kinda overlooked when we downgraded this feat is that we currently treat Otherworlds as brane worlds, so Senkai’s spatial extent doesn’t really matter; this is a low 2-C creation feat because brane worlds are ******* stupid (but I’m not complaining). So remove the “realm with a moon” stuff and change the description to reference how Senkai is a brane world and branes are low 2-C by default.

Kasen: Same deal as Miko. List Senkai creation, and while the “far superior to Miko” statement is fine by itself, adding the Senkai feat is one less hoop people have to jump through when finding the source of universal AP.

Yukari: I kinda regret adding the constellation feat because it doesn’t really add to the universal justifications. The feat itself is weird anyways since we don’t know if she actually created the individual stars that make up the constellations or just moved pre-existing ones. Get rid of it.

Eirin: Bit of a minor change, the ‘hinted to be able to use a Klein bottle’ thing is a bit weird since WoG confirms it IS a Klein bottle, no speculation needed. Change the description to something like “Can utilize a Klein bottle in combat, which contains infinite mass and is likely 4D”. Furthermore, creating the sealed chamber should be removed. Her profile currently says it might be an illusion, but the text itself is very blatant about how none of it is real. So it's an illusion creation feat that doesn't scale to AP and wouldn't have even been universal, anyways.

Okina: The ‘god of stars’ thing needs to go, literally what ******* purpose does this serve lmao

Doremy: Dreams can contain Hell, which is infinite. That alone is a much better justification than “Otherworlds of varying size”. And now that the Netherworld is infinite too, we should probably add that as well since it also appears in dreams. And of course, the whole “Otherworlds are brane worlds” thing makes size irrelevant anyways. This should be 2-C, but dream scaling isn’t something I’m going to bother debating yet. Though if we can get 2-C accepted here then that’d be pretty cool.

Tenshi: for the love of god why have we still not added the ‘shaking the Heavens’ feat it’s been like 5 years since AoCF came out

Keine: Her Hakutaku form can create history, which according to WoG, creates the future as well. Being able to create the past and future is a pretty blatant timeline creation feat, and thus low 2-C.

Youmu: Add her spell card "Matsuyoi-Reflecting Satellite Slash", it covers an infinite range with energy, can’t get more blatantly H3-A than that.

Komachi: Pretty sure we agreed that her spatial expansion feat doesn't translate to AP. It has no reason to remain.

Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition

Note: LordGriffin has already agreed to this feat.

I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V

Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.

In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.

The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).

We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.

The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.

First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.

In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.

In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.

TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.

As for death manipulation, in PMiSS it is stated that ghosts can kill whatever they touch, and in SCoOW it's stated that Yuyuko passively kills whatever comes near her. The list below is of all characters who have touched or otherwise come near Yuyuko and survived, and thus have resistance to death manipulation:

Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, Yukari, Satori, Orin, Alice, Sanae, Patchouli, Remilia, Suika, Aya, Seija, Reisen, Iku, Tenshi, Eiki, Komachi, the Prismriver Sisters, Seiga, Tojiko, Yoshika, Miko, Futo, Renko, Maribel, Sumireko, Kanako, Wriggle, Mystia, Keine, Tewi, Ran, Chen, Kasen, Minoriko, Mamizou, Momiji, Kokoro, Koishi, Akyuu, Kosuzu, Nitori, Suwako, Utsuho, Sekibanki, Hatate, Nazrin, Rumia, Seiran, Ringo, Yuuka, Shinmyoumaru, Hecatia, Kogasa, Aunn, Ichirin, Hina, and Letty.

That should be everything, and until the issues between me and Mal are resolved, this will be my last post here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. I hope that Confluctor and Griffin will take a look at the above post later though.

 

[Confluctor]

1. Why would abilities card grant those abilities? Don't think you explained that.
2. About Beast Youkai, why would that be mind manip resistance? Mental attacks can come in variety of forms and shapes. Can you send some feats so easier to evaluate?
3. About water stuff... I don't see any Absorption?
4. About soul and bfr stuff... The scan is not showing that? Also bfr would be limited at best from description since it's seems like an after effects of the soul hax.
5. Soul Absorption also needs some more scans that are relevant to the feat itself.. explaination is alright, but where does it say they are resisting being sucked into whatever?
6. Soul and purification stuff... You gotta show the feats of these guys being unaffected by it. Also the whole thing seems somewhat Sus overall.
7. Residence to poison seem alright, but not so much for transformation or perception manip. Think about it, the two happens due to the after effects of the poison, if poison doesn't work, naturally they won't get far enough to resist the other stuff.
8. Can we see some feats of death manip resistance? Were they unaffected at all?
9. About the size of heaven, where does it say that it's infinite?

Will check the rest some other time

 

[Antvasima]

Should we allow Fujiwara to help us finish this thread by responding to questions from our staff, and then apply the full Touhou topic ban?

 

[Shmooply]

I can respond to some of the questions in a moment.

 

[Shmooply]

1. Why would abilities card grant those abilities? Don't think you explained that.

Phantoms in Touhou have the ability to affect the minds of the people around them. Youmu is also stated to be half-ghost in Strange Creators of Outer World, and ghosts in Touhou can influence the hearts of humans, in the same book it's also stated that phantoms "bring the disposition of everything around them closer to their own," and one of the examples included is that a cheerful phantom can make a gloomy human near them cheerful. Nazrin's main ability is clairvoyance, so I don't think I need to explain that much.

About Beast Youkai, why would that be mind manip resistance? Mental attacks can come in variety of forms and shapes. Can you send some feats so easier to evaluate?

Mental attacks in Touhou are classified as attacks that directly attack the mind. Reimu states that her amulets do mental damage to her opponents, and are ineffective against gullible people.

1. About water stuff... I don't see any Absorption?

In the video, Reimu is shown absorbing Marisa's water-based magic attacks. I guess it's hard to tell because of the visuals.

1. About soul and bfr stuff... The scan is not showing that? Also bfr would be limited at best from description since it's seems like an after effects of the soul hax.

Doremy's profile explains further on her soul hax and BFR stuff and of course they both lack scans **** me why. People fall asleep by getting into contact with her dream souls, and she can banish people to the Dream World and/or put them inside nightmares with said dream souls as well.

but where does it say they are resisting being sucked into whatever?

Youmu says that the temperament of phantoms and living beings are being sucked in. Since she's a magic user, who can sense disturbances in temperament, I doubt she was lying.

1. Soul and purification stuff... You gotta show the feats of these guys being unaffected by it. Also the whole thing seems somewhat Sus overall.

I'll let Mokou handle this one, since I don't feel like tackling it.

1. Can we see some feats of death manip resistance? Were they unaffected at all?

Besides the scans in the OP, there's also Youmu and the other phantoms being shocked that Reimu, a living human, is somehow in the Netherworld. It's also stated in PMiSS that being touched by a ghost can make a living being be "beckoned by death." Yuyuko's profile in Strange Creators of Outer World states that ghosts make anything around them die, making any nearby human drawn to their death.

1. About the size of heaven, where does it say that it's infinite?

I'll tackle this one at a later date, since it's midnight here. Other supporters can chime in on this while I'm gone, though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Why would abilities card grant those abilities? Don't think you explained that.

Youmu’s ability card grants you access to part of her phantom half, and phantoms passively affect the minds and emotions of anyone who comes near them, so possessing a phantom in this way would grant the same passive hax. Nazrin’s card is stated to grant you her ability, which allows her to find anything so long as somebody is looking for it, which we consider clairvoyance on her profile.

About Beast Youkai, why would that be mind manip resistance? Mental attacks can come in variety of forms and shapes. Can you send some feats so easier to evaluate?

No direct feats, but what else would even qualify as a mental attack other than something that, well, attacks the mind? Mind manipulation is the ability that best fits the description.

About water stuff... I don't see any Absorption?

It’s difficult to tell in the gameplay itself, but the video description describes it as such: “You absorb water while grazing/dashing; that will give you thouse weird orbs which you can use as a bomb, but be careful, since they're also your lives.” Basically they’re drawing in the water from their surroundings to heal themselves. I can maybe look for a more clear example of the mechanic in action if that’d help?

About soul and bfr stuff... The scan is not showing that? Also bfr would be limited at best from description since it's seems like an after effects of the soul hax.

Lemme post a bit more context. Reimu gets hit by one of those dream souls, passes out, and the original scan explains that it sent her soul to the dream world. Not sure where you’re getting the aftereffect interpretation from? It sent their souls to the Dream World, it didn’t do some weird shit to their souls that just so happened to also coincidentally BFR them.

Soul Absorption also needs some more scans that are relevant to the feat itself.. explaination is alright, but where does it say they are resisting being sucked into whatever?

I mean, the text says that the souls of all living things were rising (it even says they're being 'sucked up', which is clear absorption). Nothing in the text ever states or implies that anybody died from this (as one would when having their soul sucked out), and the protagonists of the game are clearly still alive, so how are they not resisting it? I guess you could argue they’re not resisting the absorption itself, so it’s just soul manip resistance since they can survive without their souls?

Soul and purification stuff... You gotta show the feats of these guys being unaffected by it. Also the whole thing seems somewhat Sus overall.

Many games and manga take place in Hell, and nobody ever had their soul purified, crystalized, or otherwise affected. Like, the Touhou wiki has a list of characters who live in Hell/Former Hell, so that should be good enough I think? Unless you need specific examples of every time a character enters Hell, for each character on the list. Which I can do, it’ll just take a long time.

Residence to poison seem alright, but not so much for transformation or perception manip. Think about it, the two happens due to the after effects of the poison, if poison doesn't work, naturally they won't get far enough to resist the other stuff.

Uh, the text never says the poison is what causes the hallucinations or transformation. The first one is just from standing near mushrooms with hallucinogenic properties, with no mention of those specific mushrooms being poisonous. The second is the nature of the Forest of Magic itself, and isn’t tied to any one plant or whatever. Neither of these effects are attributed to any kind of poison.

Can we see some feats of death manip resistance? Were they unaffected at all?

For the current death manip justifications, I again can give you every instance of every character touching or being near Yuyuko and not dying, but hopefully some broad examples will work? Yuyuko’s SWR route, where multiple characters physically hit her and don’t die. This big festival in one of the manga where Yuyuko also is and people don’t die (I circled her because she’s kinda hard to spot). Yuyuko being a stage boss in TD. So on and so forth.

About the size of heaven, where does it say that it's infinite?

Heaven is larger than the Netherworld, which is larger than Hell, which is infinite.

I'm assuming this response is okay because Ant suggested it?

EDIT: SHMOOPY I SWEAR TO ******* GOD-

 

[Shmooply]

EDIT: SHMOOPY I SWEAR TO ******* GOD-

What? I said I was gonna respond to them.
call me aya cause im fast as **** than the rest of you

 

[Confluctor]

Phantoms in Touhou have the ability to affect the minds of the people around them. Youmu is also stated to be half-ghost in Strange Creators of Outer World, and ghosts in Touhou can influence the hearts of humans, in the same book it's also stated that phantoms "bring the disposition of everything around them closer to their own," and one of the examples included is that a cheerful phantom can make a gloomy human near them cheerful. Nazrin's main ability is clairvoyance, so I don't think I need to explain that much.

So the cards grants them abilities of phantoms or...?

Mental attacks in Touhou are classified as attacks that directly attack the mind. Reimu states that her amulets do mental damage to her opponents, and are ineffective against gullible people.

Again, mental damage can mean anything. Can we actually see some feats of it.

And what is the relevance of the last scan?

In the video, Reimu is shown absorbing Marisa's water-based magic attacks. I guess it's hard to tell because of the visuals.

Hm, doesn't seem like it, but alright. Sure.

Doremy's profile explains further on her soul hax and BFR stuff and of course they both lack scans **** me why. People fall asleep by getting into contact with her dream souls, and she can banish people to the Dream World and/or put them inside nightmares with said dream souls as well.

What are dream souls now?

Youmu says that the temperament of phantoms and living beings are being sucked in. Since she's a magic user, who can sense disturbances in temperament, I doubt she was lying.

I don't see how that's is any evidence of soul Absorption resistance?

I'll let Mokou handle this one, since I don't feel like tackling it.

Weak

Besides the scans in the OP, there's also Youmu and the other phantoms being shocked that Reimu, a living human, is somehow in the Netherworld. It's also stated in PMiSS that being touched by a ghost can make a living being be "beckoned by death." Yuyuko's profile in Strange Creators of Outer World states that ghosts make anything around them die, making any nearby human drawn to their death.

Isn't that because she is a special being? Considering how she is half phantom and half human? Or is there a different mechanism involved?

About the last bit, did the ghost touch her?

.
No direct feats, but what else would even qualify as a mental attack other than something that, well, attacks the mind? Mind manipulation is the ability that best fits the description.

Could be TP, could be madness hax, could be morality related shenanigans, could be something else. There are quite a few things that could qualify for something as vague as that. So, I ask, feats?

Lemme post a bit more context. Reimu gets hit by one of those dream souls, passes out, and the original scan explains that it sent her soul to the dream world. Not sure where you’re getting the aftereffect interpretation from? It sent their souls to the Dream World, it didn’t do some weird shit to their souls that just so happened to also coincidentally BFR them.

The after effect things comes from how you described the ability, might wanna reword it then.

But then where does the resistance comes from?

I mean, the text says that the souls of all living things were rising (it even says they're being 'sucked up', which is clear absorption). Nothing in the text ever states or implies that anybody died from this (as one would when having their soul sucked out), and the protagonists of the game are clearly still alive, so how are they not resisting it? I guess you could argue they’re not resisting the absorption itself, so it’s just soul manip resistance since they can survive without their souls?

Is there a video or game or manga page or whatever for this event? Because rising, yes, but idk, it's too vague. Perhaps send some other scans which supports them being absorbed in?

Many games and manga take place in Hell, and nobody ever had their soul purified, crystalized, or otherwise affected. Like, the Touhou wiki has a list of characters who live in Hell/Former Hell, so that should be good enough I think? Unless you need specific examples of every time a character enters Hell, for each character on the list. Which I can do, it’ll just take a long time.

I need at least one - more is better - specific example of them resisting all of this.

Uh, the text never says the poison is what causes the hallucinations or transformation. The first one is just from standing near mushrooms with hallucinogenic properties, with no mention of those specific mushrooms being poisonous. The second is the nature of the Forest of Magic itself, and isn’t tied to any one plant or whatever. Neither of these effects are attributed to any kind of poison.

You should have explained it like this initially then. So, if it's not an after effect, sure then.

For the current death manip justifications, I again can give you every instance of every character touching or being near Yuyuko and not dying, but hopefully some broad examples will work? Yuyuko’s SWR route, where multiple characters physically hit her and don’t die. This big festival in one of the manga where Yuyuko also is and people don’t die (I circled her because she’s kinda hard to spot). Yuyuko being a stage boss in TD. So on and so forth.

Is there death hax passive or...?

Heaven is larger than the Netherworld, which is larger than Hell, which is infinite.

Sure, works

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I'm going to give this a try, but there's probably better answers and people whose devices actually let them post sources on the way. I just want to try and help.

So the cards grants them abilities of phantoms or...?

Each card granted the abilities and characteristics of the characters and things they were based on, yeah. Them noticing the cards is essentially the what kickstarts the plot in TH 18.

Again, mental damage can mean anything. Can we actually see some feats of it.

I'm not sure if this context helps at all, but the core of all youkai come from their mind, so much so that destroying or replacing their mind would essentially kill them. It makes sense that Reimu's gear can harm the mind since it's her job to exterminate Youkai, and that's most effective way to kill them.

This also ties into how it's worth mentioning that beast Youkai in particular would be more resistant to said mental damage, compared to other types of Youkai. At least that's how I'd see it.

What are dream souls now?

Dream souls are floating pink orbs that are a considered a type of phantom, and each one is the physical embodiment of a dream.

Also, the resistances come from being hit by dreams souls in the later games, without having the same effects happen.

About the last bit, did the ghost touch her?

Yuyuko has definitely fought people in a few story mode routes in the fighting game. That should qualify them for it.

Given that ghosts have the natural ability that makes nearby things die, anyone who has not touched her, but at least come into very close contact, would likely count as having resisted the effects too, I believe.

Is there death hax passive or...?

In one of the sources above, when comparing the difference between phantoms and ghosts, it describes how phantoms can affect one's mood just by being near you, and then follows up by explaining how instead ghosts cause everything around them to die. So in the same way that phantoms have passive, aoe affects on people, ghosts have a passive, aoe type of death manipulation on people.

These are the topics I could actually address. I hope something here helps. I'll try to add sources if my phone actually lets me. Pain

 

[Confluctor]

I will get to this after work or tomorrow

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I will get to this after work or tomorrow

Take whatever time you need, and I wish ya the best of luck with today!

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Could be TP, could be madness hax, could be morality related shenanigans, could be something else. There are quite a few things that could qualify for something as vague as that. So, I ask, feats?

Those are all just subsets of mind manipulation, though. This statement is the only thing supporting any kind of resistance. OverlordDonnelly's explanation is good too though.

The after effect things comes from how you described the ability, might wanna reword it then.

But then where does the resistance comes from?

So, Doremy is a character who can wield and weaponize the same dream souls as shown in the manga in one of the fighting games. The omake.txt says they're dream souls, and ZUN has said that the pink blobs Doremy holds are dream souls (he even acknowledges that they're the same ones as in the manga). This is important because quite a few of Doremy's attacks throw dream souls at her opponent. Since numerous characters fight her in their respective story routes (or Doremy's own routes) and didn't get affected by any of the dream soul hax, they should resist it. It's kinda difficult to find footage of every character listed getting hit, because the game in question has a swap out mechanic and pre-existing videos aren't guaranteed to even have Doremy out in front. However, every character listed did in fact canonically fight Doremy, and this IS her primary means of attack, so I hope this is good enough?

I need at least one - more is better - specific example of them resisting all of this.

Sure. The entire 3rd and 4th stages of SA take place in Former Hell (videos of each, for reference), here you can see characters standing around in Former Hell just fine, and here we see Reimu in Hell existing just as a soul separated from her body, yet she's totally fine.

Is there death hax passive or...?

Yes. As stated in her SCoOW profile, ghosts passively kill everything around them. And, well, Yuyuko's a ghost. Same goes for physical touch.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

But then where does the resistance comes from?

Deez nuts.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Deez nuts.

Bold. Go to the corner and think about what you've done, young man.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Confluctor.