Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,144
- 10,431
Due to popular request, I’ll be combining all 4 active revisions into a single, larger revision.
This is obviously going to be very long and somewhat disorganized, but hopefully this will help get this stuff actually ******* evaluated.
I’m going to split this up into changes for individual characters and changes that apply to a significant number of characters (as in, more than 3).
And before anybody bitches about how hard this will be to evaluate due to being a huge wall of text, you all brought this upon yourselves.
Small Scale Changes (Evaluated and Accepted)
Hourai Immortals
Resistance to Life & Death Manipulation needs to go. It isn’t wrong, of course, but it’s just kinda redundant with type 5 immortality. Also, why does every hourai immortal get “resisted Yuyuko’s attempt at killing her” as a justification when IIRC that only happened to Mokou?
Phantoms
Possession from, well, possessing people.
Oni
For the record, I disagree with this for reasons I’ll get to in a bit.
Dream Manipulation, as when Aya drank oni sake, she experienced severe nightmares.
The problem here stems from how the sake was served to her by Miyoi, who has shown the ability to induce nightmares in drunken people. There are many examples, but the most obvious is when she and Suika plan to get revenge on Kanako by making her experience nightmares, something attributed specifically to Miyoi’s power (we even see her do a little incantation as Kanako drinks the sake). Furthermore, many characters also experience these nightmares after coming into contact with Miyoi despite not drinking any oni sake.
Not only that, but in WaHH, Mamizou drinks sake taken from Suika’s gourd and is totally fine, further proving that the nightmare stuff isn’t due to any innate quality of oni sake, but rather Miyoi’s ability.
WBaWC Cast
In WBaWC, all three protagonists are possessed by beast spirits. However, all of them seem actively aware of the fact that they’re possessed, and in fact are able to break free of the possession and think for themselves (albeit only for a very limited time). Naturally, this is Limited Resistance to Possession.
Reimu
Feel a little stupid for forgetting to add this before, but Reimu gets Weather Manipulation from being able to control the boundary between seasons.
Astral Projection from being able to act independently even when her soul is separated from her body.
Mind Manipulation from her ofuda dealing mental damage. Note that this is being treated as a unique quality of her ofuda, and as such it can’t just be referring to the pain it causes or their ability to hit non-physical targets, as these qualities also apply to her other techniques.
We should change her concept manip justification since downscaling from Yukari via gap creation is a bit weird and non-specific. A better example is her gathering the boundaries between seasons in her second fight with Okina, who also points out that Reimu’s boundary manipulation is nearly identical to Yukari’s. It’s a more direct comparison than just “these two characters have abilities that look similar so they must function the same”, though the gap stuff is decent supporting evidence.
Youmu
Ice Manipulation since her phantom half shouldn't be any different from a regular phantom, which is so cold that even touching it can cause frostbite.
Yuyuko
Duplication from doing shadow clone jutsu.
Enhanced Senses and Information Analysis from detecting a corpse underneath a tree and deducing how long it had been decaying for.
As a weakness addition, she can be repelled by churches or temples.
Sakuya
Weapon Control from making her knives spin around her.
Flandre
Should get a pretty big buff to her ability to destroy anything. In 17.5, she completely obliterates Yuuma and everything she's absorbed, to the point where it looks like nothing remains. This is important, since this would've extended to her soul, since phantoms are souls and phantoms are pretty consistently shown to be visible. The fact that not even a phantom remained is pretty clear evidence that Flan's ability is just Existence Erasure on a spiritual level. Yuuma would also have mid-godly regen due to coming back from this, but she doesn't have a profile yet.
Another thing to note is range; she destroyed Yuuma's stomach, which isstated to be infinite, and claimed she would destroy the infinite water supply of the Sanzu River, so both of these would qualify as H3-A range with hax.
Additionally, Crystal Manipulation from creating crystals with her attacks. Pretty simple.
Kasen
Limited Resistance to Sealing and Natural Weaponry, since her arm can only be sealed by a special katana and Reimu's Fantasy Seal, which was intended to seal her, did almost nothing. Natural weaponry comes from her implied fight with Reimu before they went to Avici, where she left deep claw marks all over the Hakurei Shrine.
Remove Teleportation. As far as I can tell, the only citation for this is the wiki’s speculation that, because she spontaneously appears behind someone with no explanation on two occasions, she can teleport. That’s not solid grounds for teleportation at all; maybe a ‘possibly’ at best.
Eirin
Dream Manipulation from creating a drug that is able to induce specific dreams in whoever takes it, as well as Poison Manipulation and Statistics Amplification via drugs since the drugs that Reisen uses in a few of her fighting game spell cards are stated to come from Eirin.
Resistance to Poison Manipulation from stating that poisons and drugs won’t work on her, proven by the fact that she survived Yuyuko’s attempt at poisoning her.
Yukari
An additional form of Durability Negation, since she can open gaps inside people to cut them in half, and Boundary of Intellect and Feet(god I ******* hate that name) states that “Being able to draw a boundary on anything means that there is nothing that can't be cut into two”.
Damage Reduction from Meiling stating that when physically striking her, she met a sort of resistance. Furthermore, when Rinnosuke swung a mallet at her, he noted that it felt like hitting a pillow.
Fear Manipulation from apparently being able to induce fear in Eirin just by smiling.
Energy Manipulation from being able to siphon off part of her own energy and store it away in a gap for later use.
Immortality Negation (Type 5) from supposedly being able to induce death in Mokou.
Astral Projection, Enhanced Senses, and Perception Manipulation via upscaling from Maribel. We already do this with her time travel, and it’s a logical conclusion given how Yukari’s boundary manipulation is obviously overwhelmingly superior to Maribel’s.
Finally, Yukari should also get Power Nullification from dispelling Reimu’s illusion in SSiB, as well as forcing Suika out of her mist form at the end of every IaMP route.
Akyuu
Akyuu should get some form of Resistance to Causality Manipulation since she states that the history of the Gensokyo Chronicle and thus her own history is above what Keine can affect with her history manipulation.
Additionally, her ability should be considered Photographic Memory.
Reisen
Energy Projection from shooting lasers from her eyes.
Perception Manipulation from directly affecting people’s senses.
Mamizou
Light Manipulation/Fire Manipulation from turning into the ******* sun, apparently.
Patchouli
Can bind ghosts to a set location which is likely Soul Manipulation.
Yorihime and Toyohime
The AP justification of ‘stopped Junko from invading the Lunar Capital’ is so blatantly wrong that I’m amazed it ever got accepted. Their last appearance was in CiLR, in 2007, while Junko first appeared in LoLK, in 2015. There is literally no in-canon evidence of them even acknowledging each other’s existence, let alone fighting.
The scaling makes even less sense when you remember that one of Junko’s AP justifications is her being a threat to the entire Lunar Capital, which would obviously include Yorihime and Toyohime. So do the Watatsukis upscale from Junko, or does Junko upscale from the Watatsukis? We need to pick a side here.
Regardless, this has no bearing on their stats because WoG saying they’re superior to everyone in Gensokyo still works fine.
Murasa and Byakuren
In 17.5, she’s able to ‘reveal the truth’ via a mantra that Byakuren taught her, which should be Information Analysis.
Byakuren also gets Overwhelming Aura and Existence Erasure from this skill card.
Miko
Sleep Manipulation from being able to put herself to sleep with a spell.
Yuuma
Made a page for her.
Sandbox: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:FujiwaraYesMokou/sandbox#Yuuma_Toutetsu
(Ignore the WIP Risk of Rain and WBaWC profiles I’ll finish those eventually :v)
Given that Flandre was sent by Okina with explicit orders to kill Yuuma I don’t think the scaling is questionable. I shouldn’t have to explain that nobody holds back during an assassination attempt.
Verse-Wide Changes (Still Needs Evaluation)
Acrobatics
So as far as I’m aware, this applies to the main cast primarily due to the ability to weave in and out of complex danmaku patterns while flying (which, AFAIK, would qualify as self-momentum), as well as air dashes, front flips, and the like in the grounded fighters. With that in mind, the fact that I applied it to characters such as Tenryu or Chang’e is pretty blatantly wrong, given how they don’t engage in spell card duels (or any fights at all, for that matter). So remove acrobatics from them and all other non-combatants. I’d also like to add acrobatics to Okina, because while I originally thought applying acrobatics to a canon wheelchair user was kind of cruel, she does in fact show the same skill in dodging danmaku in spite of that, putting her on par with everyone else.
Fairies
Add Immortality (Types 3 & 4). While they do have type 8, fairies can still die; they just come back to life later on. Akyuu also mentions this in PMiSS, stating that they immediately resurrect after death. It’s not like we can just leave it at type 8, either; the immortality page makes it pretty clear that type 8 has to grant at least one other form of immortality:
"The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise."
Type 3 is from their already accepted High-Mid regen.
Also, the key for the species page should be changed to say “At least 10-C, up to 9-B” since we know of the existence of fairies that are only a few inches tall. This would also be a reason to add Small Size (Type 1) to the species page, with the specification that it only applies to some fairies.
Phantoms, Fairies, and Prismrivers
Grouping these all together for convenience.
In PoFV, Komachi says that fairies exist in a similar state to phantoms, in that they have no lifespan. She also says the same about the Prismrivers. Lacking a lifespan is pretty obviously Immortality (Type 1), which should be applied to all phantoms, fairies, and the Prismrivers. And of course, since Komachi can outright see lifespans, she’s definitely an accurate source on this.
I’m aware fairy type 1 immortality is somewhat contradicted by PMiSS saying they are short-lived, but given how it immediately goes on to talk about how reckless fairies are due to their immortality, the context seems to be that they just don’t care if they die, not that they have naturally short lifespans.
Ability Cards
Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and Clairvoyance from Youmu's card granting you half of Youmu's phantom half and from Nazrin's card granting you her ability. Applies to Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, and Sakuya's optional equipment tabs.
All Youkai + Reimu & Marisa
Type 1 Acausality, as none of them were affected by the human village being removed from history. Youkai are reliant on human belief to sustain their existence, so naturally removing the source of that belief would erase youkai from reality. Except that obviously didn’t happen, so this proves that youkai are unaffected by changes to the past.
Reimu and Marisa, being two humans who do in fact rely on the human village (especially so for Marisa, given her family lives there), should also get this from, y’know, not dying.
Beast Youkai
PMiSS describes them as being resistant to mental attacks, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation.
Applies to Chen, Ran, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Shou, Kyouko, Mamizou, Seiran, and Ringo. Also applies to Yuuma since she should be a beast youkai similarly to Saki and Yachie.
17.5 Cast
Reimu, Marisa, Kanako, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre should get Water Manipulation, Absorption, and Healing, since the central mechanic of 17.5 is absorbing water to heal yourself and power your spell cards. The video itself doesn’t really make it apparent but the mechanics are explained more in depth in the video description.
Still More Resistances
I know I already covered some resistances above, but this is for stuff that applies to a big chunk of the cast. I'm not gonna explain literally every character's appearance on the lists below because that'd take an eternity.
Two things first, though. I’m not giving resistances for fighting game characters unless the resistance comes from a story mode, otherwise we’d get an overly inflated number of resistances. Secondly, I am 100% positive I missed some characters due to how hard it is to look through every bit of canon material to determine who’s been where and who’s fought who. If you see anyone who’s missing from a list, please say so, and keep these resistances in mind for future reference should we find another character who would qualify.
Anyone who's canonically fought or interacted with phantoms should get Resistance to Empathic and Mind Manipulation, since phantoms passively affect the minds and emotions of anyone near them, and the characters listed below have no indication that they were ever affected. For the record, I'm not including vengeful spirits, ghosts, poltergeists, or dream souls, since I can't confidently say they're similar enough to phantoms to have the same physiology. I'm also only going by characters who were visibly near phantoms at some point, otherwise I'd have to make a ton of assumptions. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:
Reimu, Marisa, Rumia, Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Alice, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Suika, Komachi, Tenshi, Letty, Chen, Ran, Suika, Wriggle, Mystia, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Mokou, Aki, Eiki, Shizuha, Nitori, Hina, Aya, Orin, Utsuho, Hatate, Kogasa, Luna Child, Sunny Milk, Star Sapphire, Byakuren, Nazrin, Nue, Ichirin, Shou, Joon, Shion, and Kanako.
Then we have Doremy's dream souls, which can instantly put a person to sleep and send their soul to the Dream World. Since these characters get hit by her dream souls repeatedly in Doremy's AoCF story route and are fine, they should get Resistance to Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and BFR. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:
Reimu, Marisa, Byakuren, Ichirin, Miko, Futo, Mokou, Yukari, Nitori, Kokoro, Joon, Shion, and Sumireko.
Reimu was affected by a dream soul in WaHH, but keep in mind that the chapter of WaHH where this happened was released 2 years prior to AoCF (2015 vs 2017), so it's likely that she developed a resistance over time.
We also have Tenshi attempting to absorb temperament in the form of mist from all across Gensokyo and the Otherworlds in SWR. According to Komachi, temperament is phantoms, and in PMiSS we’re told that phantoms are souls, so Tenshi was absorbing souls in this case (as further demonstrated by phantoms disappearing from the Netherworld). In case you need more evidence to prove these are souls being absorbed, Tenshi also calls it ‘the essence of all living things’. The protagonists, while affected, are still able to fight normally and shrug off the effects for a long time, so they should all have Resistance to Soul Absorption. But it doesn’t stop there. Youmu’s statement makes it clear that this was affecting all living things, not just the SWR cast. Since obviously nobody died or had their souls permanently affected as a result of this, this means literally ******* everyone should have resistance to soul absorption. There are a few exceptions however, such as those that did not exist at the time or were not in Gensokyo, who I’ll list below.
Tenshi (doesn’t count since she was the one doing the absorbing), Benben, Yatsuhashi, Raiko, Sumireko, Aunn, Narumi, Maribel, Renko.
Jesus. Should the universal resistance not go through it should at least still apply to the SWR cast, minus Tenshi.
Next is Hell and Former Hell. In WaHH, it's explained that as a soul travels deeper underground, they'll begin to be purified and ultimately crystalize. Considering Hell is about as deep as you can get, it should be more than deep enough for souls to begin to crystalize (or already be crystalized), so everyone who's visited Hell should get Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Transmutation, and Purification (Type 2) (not Junko's brand of purification, sadly). Additionally, Kasen states that the air in Former Hell is more toxic than the air at a geyser that was emitting poisonous gas, so everyone who's been there should get Resistance to Poison Manipulation (only applies to Former Hell, not any other hell). The list of everyone who's been to Hell or Former Hell is as follows:
Former Hell: Reimu, Marisa, Aya, Sanae, Kanako, Parsee, Suika, Yuugi, Satori, Orin, Okuu, Koishi, Hatate, Ichirin, Murasa, Byakuren, Miko, Shinmyoumaru, Sumireko, Joon, Shion, and Kasen.
Hell: Everyone in the Former Hell list, plus Youmu, Komachi, Eiki, Tenshi, Hecatia, Clownpiece, and Suiki.
Additionally, Reimu, Marisa, Orin, and Utsuho should get Resistance to Extreme Heat. Shouldn't be hard to explain, they all fight while right next to a giant lava lake, and Orin states the temperatures are so hot that the things that burn there don’t even leave ashes behind. Sanae and Cirno also get this since they fight Utsuho inside the reactor core in their Hisoutensoku routes, and both mention how overwhelming the heat is, though they fight Utsuho without issue. Finally, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre also get this due to fighting Utsuho in 17.5, while surrounded on both sides by flames.
Next is the Forest of Magic, which is both stated to change the nature of anything that lives there, the air there is filled with poisonous spores that worsen the health of anyone there, and there are mushrooms that can cause hallucinations just by being near them. Now, the first statement is a bit vague, but since the example given is of a regular jizo statue turning into a magician (Narumi), it seems more like transformation than anything else. You could argue Narumi doesn't resist it because she was obviously transformed, but the way I see it is that she didn't have any innate resistances as a jizo statue since she was just an inanimate object, but now that she's alive she does have her own resistances. The resistances for characters who've gone to the Forest of Magic are Resistance to Transformation, Poison Manipulation, and Perception Manipulation. The list of everyone who's been to the Forest of Magic is as follows:
Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Cirno, Sakuya, Remilia, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Aya, Komachi, Satori, Sumireko, Narumi, Mai, Satono, Rinnosuke, Mamizou, Aki, Eternity, Star Sapphire, Luna Child, and Sunny Milk.
Finally, we have the Netherworld, which Yuyuko says being there is equal to being dead. Furthermore, Yuyuko compares the process of visiting and leaving the Netherworld to that of reincarnation, supporting the idea that the Netherworld does in fact kill whatever exists there (since in order to reincarnate, you need to die). Considering numerous characters have visited the Netherworld and were obviously still alive while doing so, they should all get Resistance to Death Manipulation. This obviously doesn’t apply to anyone who is already dead (like Yuyuko).
Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, Saigyou Ayakashi, Yukari, Alice, Patchouli, Remilia, Aya, Sanae, Seija, Chen, Ran, Satori, Orin, Reisen, Komachi, and Iku.
The Netherworld and Heaven
A re-upgrade for the cosmology: not too long ago, the idea that the Netherworld and Heaven are infinite was rejected because Akyuu's statement comparing the Netherworld to Hell was seen as inaccurate or just a rumor. However, this is no longer the case, since in the references section of PMiSS, it's made very clear that Akyuu got her information on the afterlives from The Ministry of Right and Wrong, which oversees the afterlives, so considering this information came from them, we can now confidently say that "the Netherworld is larger than Hell'' is an accurate statement.
What does this change? Well, it gives us a more concrete understanding of the cosmology, but more importantly, Tenshi shaking the Heavens and threatening to destroy all of it, which was originally placed at 4-A/3-B, is now H3-A, some very important evidence for Touhou keeping its current ratings. It also further strengthens the argument for Doremy’s universal dream creation, since she can clearly recreate the Netherworld.
Universal Re-Scaling
As much as I strongly believe in universal Touhou, I have to admit our current profiles do a shit job of explaining why Touhou is universal. Time to fix that.
Suika: Just remove the canopy of the heavens feat, pretty sure a vague ‘shattering the sky’ statement caps out at like. Tier 6 in most circumstances.
Miko: Senkai creation is universal again, maybe: one thing that we all kinda overlooked when we downgraded this feat is that we currently treat Otherworlds as brane worlds, so Senkai’s spatial extent doesn’t really matter; this is a low 2-C creation feat because brane worlds are ******* stupid (but I’m not complaining). So remove the “realm with a moon” stuff and change the description to reference how Senkai is a brane world and branes are low 2-C by default.
Kasen: Same deal as Miko. List Senkai creation, and while the “far superior to Miko” statement is fine by itself, adding the Senkai feat is one less hoop people have to jump through when finding the source of universal AP.
Yukari: I kinda regret adding the constellation feat because it doesn’t really add to the universal justifications. The feat itself is weird anyways since we don’t know if she actually created the individual stars that make up the constellations or just moved pre-existing ones. Get rid of it.
Eirin: Bit of a minor change, the ‘hinted to be able to use a Klein bottle’ thing is a bit weird since WoG confirms it IS a Klein bottle, no speculation needed. Change the description to something like “Can utilize a Klein bottle in combat, which contains infinite mass and is likely 4D”. Furthermore, creating the sealed chamber should be removed. Her profile currently says it might be an illusion, but the text itself is very blatant about how none of it is real. So it's an illusion creation feat that doesn't scale to APand wouldn't have even been universal, anyways.
Okina: The ‘god of stars’ thing needs to go, literally what ******* purpose does this serve lmao
Doremy: Dreams can contain Hell, which is infinite. That alone is a much better justification than “Otherworlds of varying size”. And now that the Netherworld is infinite too, we should probably add that as well since it also appears in dreams. And of course, the whole “Otherworlds are brane worlds” thing makes size irrelevant anyways. This should be 2-C, but dream scaling isn’t something I’m going to bother debating yet. Though if we can get 2-C accepted here then that’d be pretty cool.
Tenshi: for the love of god why have we still not added the ‘shaking the Heavens’ feat it’s been like 5 years since AoCF came out
Keine: Her Hakutaku form can create history, which according to WoG, creates the future as well. Being able to create the past and future is a pretty blatant timeline creation feat, and thus low 2-C.
Youmu: Add her spell card "Matsuyoi-Reflecting Satellite Slash", it covers an infinite range with energy, can’t get more blatantly H3-A than that.
Komachi: Pretty sure we agreed that her spatial expansion feat doesn't translate to AP. It has no reason to remain.
Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition
I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V
Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.
In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.
The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).
We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.
The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.
First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.
In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.
We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.
In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.
TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.
That should be everything, I believe. I swear to god if this goes unevaluated despite everyone getting on my ass about merging the threads, I'll commit self-"Let This Whole World Burn Away to Nothing!"
This is obviously going to be very long and somewhat disorganized, but hopefully this will help get this stuff actually ******* evaluated.
I’m going to split this up into changes for individual characters and changes that apply to a significant number of characters (as in, more than 3).
And before anybody bitches about how hard this will be to evaluate due to being a huge wall of text, you all brought this upon yourselves.
Small Scale Changes (Evaluated and Accepted)
Hourai Immortals
Resistance to Life & Death Manipulation needs to go. It isn’t wrong, of course, but it’s just kinda redundant with type 5 immortality. Also, why does every hourai immortal get “resisted Yuyuko’s attempt at killing her” as a justification when IIRC that only happened to Mokou?
Phantoms
Possession from, well, possessing people.
Oni
For the record, I disagree with this for reasons I’ll get to in a bit.
Dream Manipulation, as when Aya drank oni sake, she experienced severe nightmares.
The problem here stems from how the sake was served to her by Miyoi, who has shown the ability to induce nightmares in drunken people. There are many examples, but the most obvious is when she and Suika plan to get revenge on Kanako by making her experience nightmares, something attributed specifically to Miyoi’s power (we even see her do a little incantation as Kanako drinks the sake). Furthermore, many characters also experience these nightmares after coming into contact with Miyoi despite not drinking any oni sake.
Not only that, but in WaHH, Mamizou drinks sake taken from Suika’s gourd and is totally fine, further proving that the nightmare stuff isn’t due to any innate quality of oni sake, but rather Miyoi’s ability.
WBaWC Cast
In WBaWC, all three protagonists are possessed by beast spirits. However, all of them seem actively aware of the fact that they’re possessed, and in fact are able to break free of the possession and think for themselves (albeit only for a very limited time). Naturally, this is Limited Resistance to Possession.
Reimu
Feel a little stupid for forgetting to add this before, but Reimu gets Weather Manipulation from being able to control the boundary between seasons.
Astral Projection from being able to act independently even when her soul is separated from her body.
Mind Manipulation from her ofuda dealing mental damage. Note that this is being treated as a unique quality of her ofuda, and as such it can’t just be referring to the pain it causes or their ability to hit non-physical targets, as these qualities also apply to her other techniques.
We should change her concept manip justification since downscaling from Yukari via gap creation is a bit weird and non-specific. A better example is her gathering the boundaries between seasons in her second fight with Okina, who also points out that Reimu’s boundary manipulation is nearly identical to Yukari’s. It’s a more direct comparison than just “these two characters have abilities that look similar so they must function the same”, though the gap stuff is decent supporting evidence.
Ice Manipulation since her phantom half shouldn't be any different from a regular phantom, which is so cold that even touching it can cause frostbite.
Yuyuko
Duplication from doing shadow clone jutsu.
Enhanced Senses and Information Analysis from detecting a corpse underneath a tree and deducing how long it had been decaying for.
As a weakness addition, she can be repelled by churches or temples.
Sakuya
Weapon Control from making her knives spin around her.
Flandre
Should get a pretty big buff to her ability to destroy anything. In 17.5, she completely obliterates Yuuma and everything she's absorbed, to the point where it looks like nothing remains. This is important, since this would've extended to her soul, since phantoms are souls and phantoms are pretty consistently shown to be visible. The fact that not even a phantom remained is pretty clear evidence that Flan's ability is just Existence Erasure on a spiritual level. Yuuma would also have mid-godly regen due to coming back from this, but she doesn't have a profile yet.
Another thing to note is range; she destroyed Yuuma's stomach, which isstated to be infinite, and claimed she would destroy the infinite water supply of the Sanzu River, so both of these would qualify as H3-A range with hax.
Additionally, Crystal Manipulation from creating crystals with her attacks. Pretty simple.
Kasen
Limited Resistance to Sealing and Natural Weaponry, since her arm can only be sealed by a special katana and Reimu's Fantasy Seal, which was intended to seal her, did almost nothing. Natural weaponry comes from her implied fight with Reimu before they went to Avici, where she left deep claw marks all over the Hakurei Shrine.
Remove Teleportation. As far as I can tell, the only citation for this is the wiki’s speculation that, because she spontaneously appears behind someone with no explanation on two occasions, she can teleport. That’s not solid grounds for teleportation at all; maybe a ‘possibly’ at best.
Eirin
Dream Manipulation from creating a drug that is able to induce specific dreams in whoever takes it, as well as Poison Manipulation and Statistics Amplification via drugs since the drugs that Reisen uses in a few of her fighting game spell cards are stated to come from Eirin.
Resistance to Poison Manipulation from stating that poisons and drugs won’t work on her, proven by the fact that she survived Yuyuko’s attempt at poisoning her.
Yukari
An additional form of Durability Negation, since she can open gaps inside people to cut them in half, and Boundary of Intellect and Feet
Damage Reduction from Meiling stating that when physically striking her, she met a sort of resistance. Furthermore, when Rinnosuke swung a mallet at her, he noted that it felt like hitting a pillow.
Fear Manipulation from apparently being able to induce fear in Eirin just by smiling.
Energy Manipulation from being able to siphon off part of her own energy and store it away in a gap for later use.
Immortality Negation (Type 5) from supposedly being able to induce death in Mokou.
Astral Projection, Enhanced Senses, and Perception Manipulation via upscaling from Maribel. We already do this with her time travel, and it’s a logical conclusion given how Yukari’s boundary manipulation is obviously overwhelmingly superior to Maribel’s.
Finally, Yukari should also get Power Nullification from dispelling Reimu’s illusion in SSiB, as well as forcing Suika out of her mist form at the end of every IaMP route.
Akyuu
Akyuu should get some form of Resistance to Causality Manipulation since she states that the history of the Gensokyo Chronicle and thus her own history is above what Keine can affect with her history manipulation.
Additionally, her ability should be considered Photographic Memory.
Reisen
Energy Projection from shooting lasers from her eyes.
Perception Manipulation from directly affecting people’s senses.
Mamizou
Light Manipulation/Fire Manipulation from turning into the ******* sun, apparently.
Patchouli
Can bind ghosts to a set location which is likely Soul Manipulation.
Yorihime and Toyohime
The AP justification of ‘stopped Junko from invading the Lunar Capital’ is so blatantly wrong that I’m amazed it ever got accepted. Their last appearance was in CiLR, in 2007, while Junko first appeared in LoLK, in 2015. There is literally no in-canon evidence of them even acknowledging each other’s existence, let alone fighting.
The scaling makes even less sense when you remember that one of Junko’s AP justifications is her being a threat to the entire Lunar Capital, which would obviously include Yorihime and Toyohime. So do the Watatsukis upscale from Junko, or does Junko upscale from the Watatsukis? We need to pick a side here.
Regardless, this has no bearing on their stats because WoG saying they’re superior to everyone in Gensokyo still works fine.
Murasa and Byakuren
In 17.5, she’s able to ‘reveal the truth’ via a mantra that Byakuren taught her, which should be Information Analysis.
Byakuren also gets Overwhelming Aura and Existence Erasure from this skill card.
Miko
Sleep Manipulation from being able to put herself to sleep with a spell.
Yuuma
Made a page for her.
Sandbox: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:FujiwaraYesMokou/sandbox#Yuuma_Toutetsu
(Ignore the WIP Risk of Rain and WBaWC profiles I’ll finish those eventually :v)
Given that Flandre was sent by Okina with explicit orders to kill Yuuma I don’t think the scaling is questionable. I shouldn’t have to explain that nobody holds back during an assassination attempt.
Verse-Wide Changes (Still Needs Evaluation)
Acrobatics
So as far as I’m aware, this applies to the main cast primarily due to the ability to weave in and out of complex danmaku patterns while flying (which, AFAIK, would qualify as self-momentum), as well as air dashes, front flips, and the like in the grounded fighters. With that in mind, the fact that I applied it to characters such as Tenryu or Chang’e is pretty blatantly wrong, given how they don’t engage in spell card duels (or any fights at all, for that matter). So remove acrobatics from them and all other non-combatants. I’d also like to add acrobatics to Okina, because while I originally thought applying acrobatics to a canon wheelchair user was kind of cruel, she does in fact show the same skill in dodging danmaku in spite of that, putting her on par with everyone else.
Fairies
Add Immortality (Types 3 & 4). While they do have type 8, fairies can still die; they just come back to life later on. Akyuu also mentions this in PMiSS, stating that they immediately resurrect after death. It’s not like we can just leave it at type 8, either; the immortality page makes it pretty clear that type 8 has to grant at least one other form of immortality:
"The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise."
Type 3 is from their already accepted High-Mid regen.
Also, the key for the species page should be changed to say “At least 10-C, up to 9-B” since we know of the existence of fairies that are only a few inches tall. This would also be a reason to add Small Size (Type 1) to the species page, with the specification that it only applies to some fairies.
Phantoms, Fairies, and Prismrivers
Grouping these all together for convenience.
In PoFV, Komachi says that fairies exist in a similar state to phantoms, in that they have no lifespan. She also says the same about the Prismrivers. Lacking a lifespan is pretty obviously Immortality (Type 1), which should be applied to all phantoms, fairies, and the Prismrivers. And of course, since Komachi can outright see lifespans, she’s definitely an accurate source on this.
I’m aware fairy type 1 immortality is somewhat contradicted by PMiSS saying they are short-lived, but given how it immediately goes on to talk about how reckless fairies are due to their immortality, the context seems to be that they just don’t care if they die, not that they have naturally short lifespans.
Ability Cards
Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and Clairvoyance from Youmu's card granting you half of Youmu's phantom half and from Nazrin's card granting you her ability. Applies to Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, and Sakuya's optional equipment tabs.
All Youkai + Reimu & Marisa
Type 1 Acausality, as none of them were affected by the human village being removed from history. Youkai are reliant on human belief to sustain their existence, so naturally removing the source of that belief would erase youkai from reality. Except that obviously didn’t happen, so this proves that youkai are unaffected by changes to the past.
Reimu and Marisa, being two humans who do in fact rely on the human village (especially so for Marisa, given her family lives there), should also get this from, y’know, not dying.
Beast Youkai
PMiSS describes them as being resistant to mental attacks, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation.
Applies to Chen, Ran, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Shou, Kyouko, Mamizou, Seiran, and Ringo. Also applies to Yuuma since she should be a beast youkai similarly to Saki and Yachie.
17.5 Cast
Reimu, Marisa, Kanako, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre should get Water Manipulation, Absorption, and Healing, since the central mechanic of 17.5 is absorbing water to heal yourself and power your spell cards. The video itself doesn’t really make it apparent but the mechanics are explained more in depth in the video description.
Still More Resistances
I know I already covered some resistances above, but this is for stuff that applies to a big chunk of the cast. I'm not gonna explain literally every character's appearance on the lists below because that'd take an eternity.
Two things first, though. I’m not giving resistances for fighting game characters unless the resistance comes from a story mode, otherwise we’d get an overly inflated number of resistances. Secondly, I am 100% positive I missed some characters due to how hard it is to look through every bit of canon material to determine who’s been where and who’s fought who. If you see anyone who’s missing from a list, please say so, and keep these resistances in mind for future reference should we find another character who would qualify.
Anyone who's canonically fought or interacted with phantoms should get Resistance to Empathic and Mind Manipulation, since phantoms passively affect the minds and emotions of anyone near them, and the characters listed below have no indication that they were ever affected. For the record, I'm not including vengeful spirits, ghosts, poltergeists, or dream souls, since I can't confidently say they're similar enough to phantoms to have the same physiology. I'm also only going by characters who were visibly near phantoms at some point, otherwise I'd have to make a ton of assumptions. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:
Reimu, Marisa, Rumia, Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Alice, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Suika, Komachi, Tenshi, Letty, Chen, Ran, Suika, Wriggle, Mystia, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Mokou, Aki, Eiki, Shizuha, Nitori, Hina, Aya, Orin, Utsuho, Hatate, Kogasa, Luna Child, Sunny Milk, Star Sapphire, Byakuren, Nazrin, Nue, Ichirin, Shou, Joon, Shion, and Kanako.
Then we have Doremy's dream souls, which can instantly put a person to sleep and send their soul to the Dream World. Since these characters get hit by her dream souls repeatedly in Doremy's AoCF story route and are fine, they should get Resistance to Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and BFR. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:
Reimu, Marisa, Byakuren, Ichirin, Miko, Futo, Mokou, Yukari, Nitori, Kokoro, Joon, Shion, and Sumireko.
Reimu was affected by a dream soul in WaHH, but keep in mind that the chapter of WaHH where this happened was released 2 years prior to AoCF (2015 vs 2017), so it's likely that she developed a resistance over time.
We also have Tenshi attempting to absorb temperament in the form of mist from all across Gensokyo and the Otherworlds in SWR. According to Komachi, temperament is phantoms, and in PMiSS we’re told that phantoms are souls, so Tenshi was absorbing souls in this case (as further demonstrated by phantoms disappearing from the Netherworld). In case you need more evidence to prove these are souls being absorbed, Tenshi also calls it ‘the essence of all living things’. The protagonists, while affected, are still able to fight normally and shrug off the effects for a long time, so they should all have Resistance to Soul Absorption. But it doesn’t stop there. Youmu’s statement makes it clear that this was affecting all living things, not just the SWR cast. Since obviously nobody died or had their souls permanently affected as a result of this, this means literally ******* everyone should have resistance to soul absorption. There are a few exceptions however, such as those that did not exist at the time or were not in Gensokyo, who I’ll list below.
Tenshi (doesn’t count since she was the one doing the absorbing), Benben, Yatsuhashi, Raiko, Sumireko, Aunn, Narumi, Maribel, Renko.
Jesus. Should the universal resistance not go through it should at least still apply to the SWR cast, minus Tenshi.
Next is Hell and Former Hell. In WaHH, it's explained that as a soul travels deeper underground, they'll begin to be purified and ultimately crystalize. Considering Hell is about as deep as you can get, it should be more than deep enough for souls to begin to crystalize (or already be crystalized), so everyone who's visited Hell should get Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Transmutation, and Purification (Type 2) (not Junko's brand of purification, sadly). Additionally, Kasen states that the air in Former Hell is more toxic than the air at a geyser that was emitting poisonous gas, so everyone who's been there should get Resistance to Poison Manipulation (only applies to Former Hell, not any other hell). The list of everyone who's been to Hell or Former Hell is as follows:
Former Hell: Reimu, Marisa, Aya, Sanae, Kanako, Parsee, Suika, Yuugi, Satori, Orin, Okuu, Koishi, Hatate, Ichirin, Murasa, Byakuren, Miko, Shinmyoumaru, Sumireko, Joon, Shion, and Kasen.
Hell: Everyone in the Former Hell list, plus Youmu, Komachi, Eiki, Tenshi, Hecatia, Clownpiece, and Suiki.
Additionally, Reimu, Marisa, Orin, and Utsuho should get Resistance to Extreme Heat. Shouldn't be hard to explain, they all fight while right next to a giant lava lake, and Orin states the temperatures are so hot that the things that burn there don’t even leave ashes behind. Sanae and Cirno also get this since they fight Utsuho inside the reactor core in their Hisoutensoku routes, and both mention how overwhelming the heat is, though they fight Utsuho without issue. Finally, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre also get this due to fighting Utsuho in 17.5, while surrounded on both sides by flames.
Next is the Forest of Magic, which is both stated to change the nature of anything that lives there, the air there is filled with poisonous spores that worsen the health of anyone there, and there are mushrooms that can cause hallucinations just by being near them. Now, the first statement is a bit vague, but since the example given is of a regular jizo statue turning into a magician (Narumi), it seems more like transformation than anything else. You could argue Narumi doesn't resist it because she was obviously transformed, but the way I see it is that she didn't have any innate resistances as a jizo statue since she was just an inanimate object, but now that she's alive she does have her own resistances. The resistances for characters who've gone to the Forest of Magic are Resistance to Transformation, Poison Manipulation, and Perception Manipulation. The list of everyone who's been to the Forest of Magic is as follows:
Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Cirno, Sakuya, Remilia, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Aya, Komachi, Satori, Sumireko, Narumi, Mai, Satono, Rinnosuke, Mamizou, Aki, Eternity, Star Sapphire, Luna Child, and Sunny Milk.
Finally, we have the Netherworld, which Yuyuko says being there is equal to being dead. Furthermore, Yuyuko compares the process of visiting and leaving the Netherworld to that of reincarnation, supporting the idea that the Netherworld does in fact kill whatever exists there (since in order to reincarnate, you need to die). Considering numerous characters have visited the Netherworld and were obviously still alive while doing so, they should all get Resistance to Death Manipulation. This obviously doesn’t apply to anyone who is already dead (like Yuyuko).
Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, Saigyou Ayakashi, Yukari, Alice, Patchouli, Remilia, Aya, Sanae, Seija, Chen, Ran, Satori, Orin, Reisen, Komachi, and Iku.
The Netherworld and Heaven
A re-upgrade for the cosmology: not too long ago, the idea that the Netherworld and Heaven are infinite was rejected because Akyuu's statement comparing the Netherworld to Hell was seen as inaccurate or just a rumor. However, this is no longer the case, since in the references section of PMiSS, it's made very clear that Akyuu got her information on the afterlives from The Ministry of Right and Wrong, which oversees the afterlives, so considering this information came from them, we can now confidently say that "the Netherworld is larger than Hell'' is an accurate statement.
What does this change? Well, it gives us a more concrete understanding of the cosmology, but more importantly, Tenshi shaking the Heavens and threatening to destroy all of it, which was originally placed at 4-A/3-B, is now H3-A, some very important evidence for Touhou keeping its current ratings. It also further strengthens the argument for Doremy’s universal dream creation, since she can clearly recreate the Netherworld.
Universal Re-Scaling
As much as I strongly believe in universal Touhou, I have to admit our current profiles do a shit job of explaining why Touhou is universal. Time to fix that.
Suika: Just remove the canopy of the heavens feat, pretty sure a vague ‘shattering the sky’ statement caps out at like. Tier 6 in most circumstances.
Miko: Senkai creation is universal again, maybe: one thing that we all kinda overlooked when we downgraded this feat is that we currently treat Otherworlds as brane worlds, so Senkai’s spatial extent doesn’t really matter; this is a low 2-C creation feat because brane worlds are ******* stupid (but I’m not complaining). So remove the “realm with a moon” stuff and change the description to reference how Senkai is a brane world and branes are low 2-C by default.
Kasen: Same deal as Miko. List Senkai creation, and while the “far superior to Miko” statement is fine by itself, adding the Senkai feat is one less hoop people have to jump through when finding the source of universal AP.
Yukari: I kinda regret adding the constellation feat because it doesn’t really add to the universal justifications. The feat itself is weird anyways since we don’t know if she actually created the individual stars that make up the constellations or just moved pre-existing ones. Get rid of it.
Eirin: Bit of a minor change, the ‘hinted to be able to use a Klein bottle’ thing is a bit weird since WoG confirms it IS a Klein bottle, no speculation needed. Change the description to something like “Can utilize a Klein bottle in combat, which contains infinite mass and is likely 4D”. Furthermore, creating the sealed chamber should be removed. Her profile currently says it might be an illusion, but the text itself is very blatant about how none of it is real. So it's an illusion creation feat that doesn't scale to AP
Okina: The ‘god of stars’ thing needs to go, literally what ******* purpose does this serve lmao
Doremy: Dreams can contain Hell, which is infinite. That alone is a much better justification than “Otherworlds of varying size”. And now that the Netherworld is infinite too, we should probably add that as well since it also appears in dreams. And of course, the whole “Otherworlds are brane worlds” thing makes size irrelevant anyways. This should be 2-C, but dream scaling isn’t something I’m going to bother debating yet. Though if we can get 2-C accepted here then that’d be pretty cool.
Tenshi: for the love of god why have we still not added the ‘shaking the Heavens’ feat it’s been like 5 years since AoCF came out
Keine: Her Hakutaku form can create history, which according to WoG, creates the future as well. Being able to create the past and future is a pretty blatant timeline creation feat, and thus low 2-C.
Youmu: Add her spell card "Matsuyoi-Reflecting Satellite Slash", it covers an infinite range with energy, can’t get more blatantly H3-A than that.
Komachi: Pretty sure we agreed that her spatial expansion feat doesn't translate to AP. It has no reason to remain.
Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition
I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V
Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.
In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.
The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).
We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.
The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.
First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.
In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.
We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.
In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.
TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.
That should be everything, I believe. I swear to god if this goes unevaluated despite everyone getting on my ass about merging the threads, I'll commit self-"Let This Whole World Burn Away to Nothing!"
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