Amitabha-Sized Touhou Revisions (Previous Thread Merging)

[Angelzewolf]

I repeat this for all of you: get off your high horses. Especially you, FujiwaraYesMokou, who's also been warned and (IIRC) banned multiple times as well.

Not once has any Touhou supporter in these threads been even mildly willing to "meet me halfway" or compromise with me on anything here. Every time I enter a Touhou thread, every Touhou supporter there puts on this "oh it's you, Mal" attitude. I'm sick of it. I don't like any of you, and I'll freely admit that, but I'm still willing to keep decorum for the purposes of keeping the threads "clean", and yet I'm constantly accused of every type of dishonesty by you people. If I were regularly accusing you people of being dishonest in this thread, you'd all be crying to the mods about it in the RVR thread. If I were throwing as much insults and snide remarks as you people do towards me, you'd constantly be crying to the RVR thread.

Just recently FujiwaraYesMokou reported me to the RVR thread because she thought my remarks towards her were "trying to start something", and I'm supposed to tolerate you people basically calling me some dishonest cretin by the second page of every thread?

FujiwaraYesMokou and Overlord Donnelly even jumped into a Bleach thread I made some time ago just to say "hurr hurr ur arguments suck just as they've always had Malomtek", which even the staff, who gives you people a lot of wide berth for this shit, said was unacceptable. I constantly see Angelzewolf and Overlord Donnelly randomly jump into arguments between me and YesMokou, as if on cue, just to plus-one YesMokou and say "you're the real bad one, Mal". It's tiring. I don't do that shit, you people do. It isn't "victim playing" when I see an entire verse's supporter group basically try to run me off this site because I don't agree with their conception of 2hu stats, trying to report me for even minor perceived infractions.

The effect is accentuated in that, aside from some staff members, who tend to come in these threads infrequently, and then only after much prodding, I'm basically alone in arguing against these "revisions", which tend to turn into a circle-jerk done almost entirely to over-inflate the stats of Touhou characters when I'm not there, and a "let's bash Malomtek" festival when I am there. Practically every argument against this circle-jerking is met with rote crowing about "scans" or some variety of wagon-circling as all the Touhou supporters act almost in unison to try to shore up each others arguments.

I'd feel more apologetic for my remarks being too sharp or for being "too dismissive" or whatever real or perceived grievances the Touhou supporters have against me if they didn't insist on being so obnoxious against me in general, while constantly crying about the "bad Malomtek" and pretending they didn't do anything wrong in the process, while I strenuously follow rules of thread decorum that they seem to skirt on regularly, without any mod checks against such behavior. It's nothing more or less than crybullying, and I'm sick and tired of it in general.

Inb4 I get reported for this too.

See what I mean? I tried being respectful. I apologized, put everyone to blame, and even stated I'd try being more respectful going forward if you were. Instead, you accused me of riding my "highhorse", and practically tried undermining my words by making it seem as if I'm always against you or a lapdog. We do not agree on a lot, in fact anything, but I rarely ever cast all the blame onto you when something starts up. I already know my words are practically nonexistent to you at this point so, this reply is primarily towards the mods. I did genuinely try, I'll try my best to continue respecting Ant's wishes about remaining polite and respectful. But I can guarantee, there will be many interactions where I will not act that way towards Mal.

I don't want to get into long bickering arguments anymore, but I don't really agree with what Angelzewolf says

We can tell. Outside of that, I agree. This was pretty much useless as nothing is going to change. It's better to just focus on the contents of the thread itself and wrap up this thread by handling what's remaining. Basically just waiting for a mod to look through the death stuff.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Don't give me that "basic decency" crap, bro. You've accused me of "lying", "fabricating evidence", and (deliberately) "misinterpreting everything" in several threads just like this one. You clearly don't respect me, and I don't see why I should respect you outside of basic decorum rules.

If you weren't aware, I'm a trans woman, so I really ******* despise the term bro (as well as similar terms like dude or man) because of that. This isn't a matter of 'an eye for an eye'; If you continue, you're just being a transphobic dick for no reason.

 

[Malomtek]

See what I mean? I tried being respectful. I apologized, put everyone to blame, and even stated I'd try being more respectful if you were. Instead, you accused me of riding my "highhorse", and practically tried undermining my words by making it seem as if I'm always against you or a lapdog. We do not agree on a lot, in fact anything, but I rarely ever cast all the blame onto you when something starts up. I already know my words are practically nonexistent to you at this point so, this reply is primarily towards the mods. I did genuinely try, I'll try my best to continue respecting Ant's wishes about remaining polite and respectful. But I can guarantee, there will be many interactions where I will not act that way towards Mal.

The bolded really illustrates what I'm trying to say here:

"I'd feel more apologetic for my remarks being too sharp or for being "too dismissive" or whatever real or perceived grievances the Touhou supporters have against me if they didn't insist on being so obnoxious against me in general, while constantly crying about the "bad Malomtek" and pretending they didn't do anything wrong in the process, while I strenuously follow rules of thread decorum that they seem to skirt on regularly, without any mod checks against such behavior. It's nothing more or less than crybullying, and I'm sick and tired of it in general."

I've never seen any thread in which you weren't against me, or weren't jumping in during a back-and-forth between me and FujiwaraYesMokou to +1 YesMokou, so these niceties about "I'm not casting all the blame on you" ring very hollow to me.

It's nice that you're at least admitting that you will be disrespectful and impolite. I can even respect you a bit for that.

If you weren't aware, I'm a trans woman, so I really ******* despise the term bro (as well as similar terms like dude or man) because of that. This isn't a matter of 'an eye for an eye'; If you continue, you're just being a transphobic dick for no reason.

When did you being transgendered come into the picture? I never brought up my race or gender or life situation in any of these threads, because, like your own transgender status, doing so never even crossed my mind. It's all completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. You're blatantly trying to victimize yourself on account of me simply calling you "bro", which is a great irony in itself when I've seen multiple posts in this thread calling me out for self-victimization.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm asking you to simply respect my gender identity. That's it. Is this really a hill you want to die on?

 

[Malomtek]

I'm asking you to simply respect my gender identity. That's it. Is this really a hill you want to die on?

Your gender identity is irrelevant to this thread, sis, and in fact you're derailing it completely with this grievance-mongering.

 

[Confluctor]

FFS can the two of you just not fight every single damn thread?

If you guys can't continue a normal discussion without throwing hands, then maybe considering going outside for a bit, getting some fresh air or some shit. Seriously.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm not the one throwing hands here. All I'm doing is asking for Mal to stop throwing hands.

 

[Confluctor]

Sure. Just drop it. At once. This will be the last post about it in this thread.

Return to abilities and shit.

 

[Angelzewolf]

The bolded really illustrates what I'm trying to say here:

"I'd feel more apologetic for my remarks being too sharp or for being "too dismissive" or whatever real or perceived grievances the Touhou supporters have against me if they didn't insist on being so obnoxious against me in general, while constantly crying about the "bad Malomtek" and pretending they didn't do anything wrong in the process, while I strenuously follow rules of thread decorum that they seem to skirt on regularly, without any mod checks against such behavior. It's nothing more or less than crybullying, and I'm sick and tired of it in general."

I've never seen any thread in which you weren't against me, or weren't jumping in during a back-and-forth between me and FujiwaraYesMokou to +1 YesMokou, so these niceties about "I'm not casting all the blame on you" ring very hollow to me.

Because that's debating? You make a point and I disagree. That's my only "side" with Mokou. (Well, that and the lack of scans/canon evidence I guess since that does get on my nerves). If my words feel hollow then...that's that. As stated, everything was pointless so might as well end this little heart to heart of ours here.

It's nice that you're at least admitting that you will be disrespectful and impolite. I can even respect you a bit for that.

Well, yeah. They would/will see me act that way so no point denying it. Like I said previously, I'm not going to act polite/respectful when you certainly will not. I'll try but I'm not gonna snap my neck for it.

That aside, I'm pretty sure both sides have made their summaries for their points. (I think?). So there's not really much for us to do besides wait for the evaluation. (Maybe there's some remaining stuff, but the death stuff is the main thing people are battling for/against so once that's settled, things should go smoothly...hopefully).

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Not once has any Touhou supporter in these threads been even mildly willing to "meet me halfway" or compromise with me on anything here.

Pretty sure I've given you the benefit of the doubt many times, even giving you credit out of fairness. In fact, all I ever ask is that you provide supporting evidence for your alternate takes on things.

FujiwaraYesMokou and Overlord Donnelly even jumped into a Bleach thread I made some time ago just to say "hurr hurr ur arguments suck just as they've always had Malomtek"

Except I quite literally joined this Wiki due to the Bleach upgrades and partake in the general thread, so of course I'd be quick to defend it in a downgrade thread.

I constantly see Angelzewolf and Overlord Donnelly randomly jump into arguments between me and YesMokou, as if on cue, just to plus-one YesMokou and say "you're the real bad one, Mal".

I come into a thread when I have time, or a point I want to address, especially when it's one I've personally looked into myself.

This is exactly the kind of thing that upsets me because you're having a victim mentality as you say this. Like, I've done my best to be respectful to you and to diffuse potential aggression (both on and off the forum), so that's why these accusations are leaving me upset. I try constantly to see both perspectives, leading into:

when I see an entire verse's supporter group basically try to run me off this site because I don't agree with their conception of 2hu stats,

I have constantly been willing to compromise when needed. It's hard to compromise with someone who says "No" to whatever he disagrees with and doesn't budge. I've compromised on some upgrades and additions though.

rote crowing about "scans" or some variety of wagon-circling as all the Touhou supporters act almost in unison to try to shore up each others arguments.

Mal, your arguments need supporting evidence or scans. Otherwise, it's nothing more than you perceived perspective on things. And, even if one could say the same about our perspective going into a revision thread, that's why we bring in the scans to support why our thoughts are more than just "our perceived perspective."



Confluctor, I'm deeply sorry if this is seen as stirring the pot, and I'll definitely hold my tongue moving forward. I saw my name being severely dragged through the mud and my intentions being misrepresented, and felt the need to defend myself.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I personally think it's a little ridiculous that we can have someone come into a thread, do exactly what is not allowed to be done in CRTs in the first place, blatantly start shit, ignore user's hard work and throw out their points because of personal "logic", make broad grandstanding comments about every other supporter in the thread, continue to insult other users, and then continue to disrespect a single user, when they have a history of causing issues on this wiki and being banned/warned, and it's instead deemed an issue on everyone, instead of the one who's continually provoking users. Continuing to call someone something they requested not to be called, and then having the audacity to italicize it and instead begin italicizing the opposite pronoun when referring to them is absurdly disrespectful and I'm personally amazed this is being passed over. How are we expected to ignore this or "be the better person" when it's so explicitly in front of our face and isn't exactly something we can ignore in a CRT?

Apologies if this comes off as disrespectful to a mod or something, but I needed to get this off of my chest. I too, would rather get back to discussing the abilities this thread was created for in the first place.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways, given that this issue has moved to the RVR, I will repost everything that has yet to be evaluated, including the full recap of the Netherworld death manip arguments. Here's hoping this will be a fresh start for the thread.

Spoiler: Everything else that needs to be evaluated (really long)

Acrobatics

So as far as I’m aware, this applies to the main cast primarily due to the ability to weave in and out of complex danmaku patterns while flying (which, AFAIK, would qualify as self-momentum), as well as air dashes, front flips, and the like in the grounded fighters. With that in mind, the fact that I applied it to characters such as Tenryu or Chang’e is pretty blatantly wrong, given how they don’t engage in spell card duels (or any fights at all, for that matter). So remove acrobatics from them and all other non-combatants. I’d also like to add acrobatics to Okina, because while I originally thought applying acrobatics to a canon wheelchair user was kind of cruel, she does in fact show the same skill in dodging danmaku in spite of that, putting her on par with everyone else.

Fairies

Add Immortality (Types 3 & 4). While they do have type 8, fairies can still die; they just come back to life later on. Akyuu also mentions this in PMiSS, stating that they immediately resurrect after death. It’s not like we can just leave it at type 8, either; the immortality page makes it pretty clear that type 8 has to grant at least one other form of immortality:

"The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise."

Type 3 is from their already accepted High-Mid regen.

Also, the key for the species page should be changed to say “At least 10-C, up to 9-B” since we know of the existence of fairies that are only a few inches tall. This would also be a reason to add Small Size (Type 1) to the species page, with the specification that it only applies to some fairies.

Phantoms, Fairies, and Prismrivers

Grouping these all together for convenience.

In PoFV, Komachi says that fairies exist in a similar state to phantoms, in that they have no lifespan. She also says the same about the Prismrivers. Lacking a lifespan is pretty obviously Immortality (Type 1), which should be applied to all phantoms, fairies, and the Prismrivers. And of course, since Komachi can outright see lifespans, she’s definitely an accurate source on this.

I’m aware fairy type 1 immortality is somewhat contradicted by PMiSS saying they are short-lived, but given how it immediately goes on to talk about how reckless fairies are due to their immortality, the context seems to be that they just don’t care if they die, not that they have naturally short lifespans.

Ability Cards

Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and Clairvoyance from Youmu's card granting you half of Youmu's phantom half and from Nazrin's card granting you her ability. Applies to Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, and Sakuya's optional equipment tabs.

All Youkai + Reimu & Marisa

Type 1 Acausality, as none of them were affected by the human village being removed from history. Youkai are reliant on human belief to sustain their existence, so naturally removing the source of that belief would erase youkai from reality. Except that obviously didn’t happen, so this proves that youkai are unaffected by changes to the past.

Reimu and Marisa, being two humans who do in fact rely on the human village (especially so for Marisa, given her family lives there), should also get this from, y’know, not dying.

Beast Youkai

PMiSS describes them as being resistant to mental attacks, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation.

Applies to Chen, Ran, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Shou, Kyouko, Mamizou, Seiran, and Ringo. Also applies to Yuuma since she should be a beast youkai similarly to Saki and Yachie.

17.5 Cast

Reimu, Marisa, Kanako, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre should get Water Manipulation, Absorption, and Healing, since the central mechanic of 17.5 is absorbing water to heal yourself and power your spell cards. The video itself doesn’t really make it apparent but the mechanics are explained more in depth in the video description.

Still More Resistances

I know I already covered some resistances above, but this is for stuff that applies to a big chunk of the cast. I'm not gonna explain literally every character's appearance on the lists below because that'd take an eternity.

Two things first, though. I’m not giving resistances for fighting game characters unless the resistance comes from a story mode, otherwise we’d get an overly inflated number of resistances. Secondly, I am 100% positive I missed some characters due to how hard it is to look through every bit of canon material to determine who’s been where and who’s fought who. If you see anyone who’s missing from a list, please say so, and keep these resistances in mind for future reference should we find another character who would qualify.

Anyone who's canonically fought or interacted with phantoms should get Resistance to Empathic and Mind Manipulation, since phantoms passively affect the minds and emotions of anyone near them, and the characters listed below have no indication that they were ever affected. For the record, I'm not including vengeful spirits, ghosts, poltergeists, or dream souls, since I can't confidently say they're similar enough to phantoms to have the same physiology. I'm also only going by characters who were visibly near phantoms at some point, otherwise I'd have to make a ton of assumptions. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Rumia, Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Alice, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Suika, Komachi, Tenshi, Letty, Chen, Ran, Suika, Wriggle, Mystia, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Mokou, Aki, Eiki, Shizuha, Nitori, Hina, Aya, Orin, Utsuho, Hatate, Kogasa, Luna Child, Sunny Milk, Star Sapphire, Byakuren, Nazrin, Nue, Ichirin, Shou, Joon, Shion, and Kanako.

Then we have Doremy's dream souls, which can instantly put a person to sleep and send their soul to the Dream World. Since these characters get hit by her dream souls repeatedly in Doremy's AoCF story route and are fine, they should get Resistance to Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and BFR. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Byakuren, Ichirin, Miko, Futo, Mokou, Yukari, Nitori, Kokoro, Joon, Shion, and Sumireko.

Reimu was affected by a dream soul in WaHH, but keep in mind that the chapter of WaHH where this happened was released 2 years prior to AoCF (2015 vs 2017), so it's likely that she developed a resistance over time.

We also have Tenshi attempting to absorb temperament in the form of mist from all across Gensokyo and the Otherworlds in SWR. According to Komachi, temperament is phantoms, and in PMiSS we’re told that phantoms are souls, so Tenshi was absorbing souls in this case (as further demonstrated by phantoms disappearing from the Netherworld). In case you need more evidence to prove these are souls being absorbed, Tenshi also calls it ‘the essence of all living things’. The protagonists, while affected, are still able to fight normally and shrug off the effects for a long time, so they should all have Resistance to Soul Absorption. But it doesn’t stop there. Youmu’s statement makes it clear that this was affecting all living things, not just the SWR cast. Since obviously nobody died or had their souls permanently affected as a result of this, this means literally ******* everyone should have resistance to soul absorption. There are a few exceptions however, such as those that did not exist at the time or were not in Gensokyo, who I’ll list below.

Tenshi (doesn’t count since she was the one doing the absorbing), Benben, Yatsuhashi, Raiko, Sumireko, Aunn, Narumi, Maribel, Renko.

Jesus. Should the universal resistance not go through it should at least still apply to the SWR cast, minus Tenshi.

Next is Hell and Former Hell. In WaHH, it's explained that as a soul travels deeper underground, they'll begin to be purified and ultimately crystalize. Considering Hell is about as deep as you can get, it should be more than deep enough for souls to begin to crystalize (or already be crystalized), so everyone who's visited Hell should get Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Transmutation, and Purification (Type 2) (not Junko's brand of purification, sadly). Additionally, Kasen states that the air in Former Hell is more toxic than the air at a geyser that was emitting poisonous gas, so everyone who's been there should get Resistance to Poison Manipulation (only applies to Former Hell, not any other hell). The list of everyone who's been to Hell or Former Hell is as follows:

Former Hell: Reimu, Marisa, Aya, Sanae, Kanako, Parsee, Suika, Yuugi, Satori, Orin, Okuu, Koishi, Hatate, Ichirin, Murasa, Byakuren, Miko, Shinmyoumaru, Sumireko, Joon, Shion, and Kasen.

Hell: Everyone in the Former Hell list, plus Youmu, Komachi, Eiki, Tenshi, Hecatia, Clownpiece, and Suiki.

Additionally, Reimu, Marisa, Orin, and Utsuho should get Resistance to Extreme Heat. Shouldn't be hard to explain, they all fight while right next to a giant lava lake, and Orin states the temperatures are so hot that the things that burn there don’t even leave ashes behind. Sanae and Cirno also get this since they fight Utsuho inside the reactor core in their Hisoutensoku routes, and both mention how overwhelming the heat is, though they fight Utsuho without issue. Finally, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre also get this due to fighting Utsuho in 17.5, while surrounded on both sides by flames.

Next is the Forest of Magic, which is both stated to change the nature of anything that lives there, the air there is filled with poisonous spores that worsen the health of anyone there, and there are mushrooms that can cause hallucinations just by being near them. Now, the first statement is a bit vague, but since the example given is of a regular jizo statue turning into a magician (Narumi), it seems more like transformation than anything else. You could argue Narumi doesn't resist it because she was obviously transformed, but the way I see it is that she didn't have any innate resistances as a jizo statue since she was just an inanimate object, but now that she's alive she does have her own resistances. The resistances for characters who've gone to the Forest of Magic are Resistance to Transformation, Poison Manipulation, and Perception Manipulation. The list of everyone who's been to the Forest of Magic is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Cirno, Sakuya, Remilia, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Aya, Komachi, Satori, Sumireko, Narumi, Mai, Satono, Rinnosuke, Mamizou, Aki, Eternity, Star Sapphire, Luna Child, and Sunny Milk.

Finally, we have the Netherworld, which Yuyuko says being there is equal to being dead. Furthermore, Yuyuko compares the process of visiting and leaving the Netherworld to that of reincarnation, supporting the idea that the Netherworld does in fact kill whatever exists there (since in order to reincarnate, you need to die). Considering numerous characters have visited the Netherworld and were obviously still alive while doing so, they should all get Resistance to Death Manipulation. This obviously doesn’t apply to anyone who is already dead (like Yuyuko).

Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, Saigyou Ayakashi, Yukari, Alice, Patchouli, Remilia, Aya, Sanae, Seija, Chen, Ran, Satori, Orin, Reisen, Komachi, and Iku.

The Netherworld and Heaven

A re-upgrade for the cosmology: not too long ago, the idea that the Netherworld and Heaven are infinite was rejected because Akyuu's statement comparing the Netherworld to Hell was seen as inaccurate or just a rumor. However, this is no longer the case, since in the references section of PMiSS, it's made very clear that Akyuu got her information on the afterlives from The Ministry of Right and Wrong, which oversees the afterlives, so considering this information came from them, we can now confidently say that "the Netherworld is larger than Hell'' is an accurate statement.

What does this change? Well, it gives us a more concrete understanding of the cosmology, but more importantly, Tenshi shaking the Heavens and threatening to destroy all of it, which was originally placed at 4-A/3-B, is now H3-A, some very important evidence for Touhou keeping its current ratings. It also further strengthens the argument for Doremy’s universal dream creation, since she can clearly recreate the Netherworld.

Universal Re-Scaling

As much as I strongly believe in universal Touhou, I have to admit our current profiles do a shit job of explaining why Touhou is universal. Time to fix that.

Suika: Just remove the canopy of the heavens feat, pretty sure a vague ‘shattering the sky’ statement caps out at like. Tier 6 in most circumstances.

Miko: Senkai creation is universal again, maybe: one thing that we all kinda overlooked when we downgraded this feat is that we currently treat Otherworlds as brane worlds, so Senkai’s spatial extent doesn’t really matter; this is a low 2-C creation feat because brane worlds are ******* stupid (but I’m not complaining). So remove the “realm with a moon” stuff and change the description to reference how Senkai is a brane world and branes are low 2-C by default.

Kasen: Same deal as Miko. List Senkai creation, and while the “far superior to Miko” statement is fine by itself, adding the Senkai feat is one less hoop people have to jump through when finding the source of universal AP.

Yukari: I kinda regret adding the constellation feat because it doesn’t really add to the universal justifications. The feat itself is weird anyways since we don’t know if she actually created the individual stars that make up the constellations or just moved pre-existing ones. Get rid of it.

Eirin: Bit of a minor change, the ‘hinted to be able to use a Klein bottle’ thing is a bit weird since WoG confirms it IS a Klein bottle, no speculation needed. Change the description to something like “Can utilize a Klein bottle in combat, which contains infinite mass and is likely 4D”. Furthermore, creating the sealed chamber should be removed. Her profile currently says it might be an illusion, but the text itself is very blatant about how none of it is real. So it's an illusion creation feat that doesn't scale to AP and wouldn't have even been universal, anyways.

Okina: The ‘god of stars’ thing needs to go, literally what ******* purpose does this serve lmao

Doremy: Dreams can contain Hell, which is infinite. That alone is a much better justification than “Otherworlds of varying size”. And now that the Netherworld is infinite too, we should probably add that as well since it also appears in dreams. And of course, the whole “Otherworlds are brane worlds” thing makes size irrelevant anyways. This should be 2-C, but dream scaling isn’t something I’m going to bother debating yet. Though if we can get 2-C accepted here then that’d be pretty cool.

Tenshi: for the love of god why have we still not added the ‘shaking the Heavens’ feat it’s been like 5 years since AoCF came out

Keine: Her Hakutaku form can create history, which according to WoG, creates the future as well. Being able to create the past and future is a pretty blatant timeline creation feat, and thus low 2-C.

Youmu: Add her spell card "Matsuyoi-Reflecting Satellite Slash", it covers an infinite range with energy, can’t get more blatantly H3-A than that.

Komachi: Pretty sure we agreed that her spatial expansion feat doesn't translate to AP. It has no reason to remain.

Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition

Note: LordGriffin has already agreed to this feat.

I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V

Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.

In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.

The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).

We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.

The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.

First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.

In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.

In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.

TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.

Spoiler: Netherworld death manip

In PCB, when fighting Yuyuko in Reimu’s route, she says the following;

“Being here is equal to being dead”

This could be interpreted as only dead beings being allowed in the Netherworld, but that leads me to the second statement in CDS:

“Passing on to the Netherworld and back… wouldn’t that be reincarnation?”

The context here is that Yuyuko will provide refuge to the denizens of the human village should a volcanic eruption occur. Since the process of going to the Netherworld and back is compared to reincarnation, this would mean anybody who enters it would die and then come back to life later on (after all, you need to die in order to reincarnate). We even see an example human villager represented in this cycle as ‘dying’ and coming back to life in a simplistic chart.

Finally, as a bit of supporting evidence, even the plants and animals within the Netherworld are dead.

As for characters resisting it, basically every main character who has gone to the Netherworld did not die; they continued to live in a location that kills all living beings within it. This is quite obviously resistance to death manipulation.

Now for the counterpoints.

“Yuyuko is saying she’ll grant refuge to the human villagers in that they’ll die, go to the Netherworld naturally, and then she’ll let them go”

There’s a lot wrong with this assumption, and covering it will also cover a few other debunks brought up.

First of all, that’s not what ‘take refuge’ means; It means to seek shelter or protection from potential harm. So, if the villagers have already been killed by the eruption, what exactly are they taking refuge from?

Secondly, the Netherworld doesn’t work like that. If someone is to die naturally, they must first go to Higan and face the Yama’s judgment. From there, they will be shuffled off to the Netherworld, Hell, or Heaven depending on their actions in life. For Yuyuko to grant the human villagers refuge in the Netherworld after they face the Yama’s judgment (as they would have to after being killed in an eruption), this would mean every single villager would have to have lived a life so identical to one another that they all end up in the same afterlife; Obviously a ridiculous assumption.

But let’s say that that does happen, somehow; Turns out this argument still doesn’t work, because it also hinges on the idea that Yuyuko will let them go after a while (she does just straight up say that in the original text, so it isn’t a permanent stay). Thing is, for those who go to the Netherworld post-judgment, they literally cannot leave until they reach nirvana or reincarnate; To assume that Yuyuko could make this a mere temporary stay when the mechanics of how the afterlife in Touhou works directly contradicts this is absurd.

However, if the human villagers are merely invited to the Netherworld and ‘die’ there before coming back, they never face the Yama’s judgment and are free to leave whenever they wish; Therefore, the interpretation that I and other supporters believe (that Yuyuko grants still-living villagers refuge in the Netherworld) avoids the issues of potentially differentiating afterlives, the idea of a permanent stay, and the fact that Mal’s interpretation misrepresents the text (taking refuge from something that already killed you is really funny, but unfortunately unusable in an actual debate).

“The eruption would kill the villagers before Yuyuko or anyone else could evacuate them”

Also wrong for numerous reasons! Volcanic eruptions don’t just kill anybody instantaneously; They take a long time to occur, or even directly threaten nearby settlements. But more than that, the main concern for the human village is stated to be food; They cannot grow any crops with volcanic ash around, after all. While food shortage is a serious issue, it still leaves ample time for alternate solutions; Starvation takes days to occur, and of course food reserves exist.

But let’s say this is as dire as Mal makes it out to be and the villagers have like 10 minutes before they all die horribly; After all, Gensokyo is spatially pretty small, so they wouldn’t have anywhere to go. Problem is, Yuyuko can literally open portals to the Netherworld whenever she wants, and virtually the entire non-human village population is capable of flight. Even in this hypothetical doomsday scenario that is in no way stated or implied by the text, there would still be ample opportunity to get the human villagers to safety.

Actually, I think these were the only two actual points that were made? Everything else was just saying the reasons I and other supporters provided were just flowery language, hyperbole, headcanon, etc. No real arguments or evidence, just ‘you’re wrong and bad and no I will not elaborate’. So if this seems one-sided then I guess that’s because it is?

 

[Malomtek]

My own recap (again), if anyone is interested:

Here's the recap, particularly of the "netherworld death inducement stuff" (since I don't particularly care for the rest, and I'll let multiple staff deal with the Sanzu River nonsense):

The current argument begins with:

As you can see here, YesMokou is arguing that due to Yuyuko saying that "being in the netherworld is the same as being dead", and someone asking whether passing on to the netherworld and back would be identical to the process of reincarnation, it means that the netherworld has insta-death auto-kill properties against living beings, and therefore being able to enter the netherworld and stay alive in the process means resistance to death manipulation.

My own argument is that these all amount to little more than poetic manners of saying that the netherworld is the "land of the dead", and that someone asking about the netherworld and it's relation to reincarnation is entirely in relation to the passing on of Human Villagers in the wake of a cataclysmic volcanic eruption and its fallout.

The counter-argument is that volcanic eruptions and emissions don't kill people that fast, and therefore the Human Villagers would have had time to seek shelters, so not all of them would die, and I argue that that's irrelevant because Gensokyo basically is an island rimmed with mountains, the Human Village is an unfortified settlement surrounded by monsters, and the humans have nowhere to go before the volcanic effects catch up to them anyway. Even if some of them did find shelter in the living world, it would be irrelevant to the actual workings of the netherworld anyway, as the rest would be either dying or dead.

Somebody (I don't remember exactly who) advanced an argument that one that enters the netherworld through the process of death has to go through the reincarnation cycle to leave, while someone who enters the netherworld simply as a "guest" can leave whenever they want to. I argue (reasonably) that this undercuts the "death resistances" argumentation, because a "guest" being able to leave a netherworld whenever implies strongly against said netherworld having magic insta-kill properties.

There's also this nice dilemma I brought up:

1. The netherworld has magical insta-death auto-kill properties on living beings, meaning that it would be an absurdity for Yuyuko to attempt to take still-living humans into refuge into the netherworld, where they'll just die anyway.

2. The netherworld doesn't have those properties, which means that nobody gets resistances simply from entering it and staying alive.

Angelzewolf has also advanced the argument that the netherworld only temporarily kills people, and upon leaving the netherworld they are un-killed. I argue (reasonably) that this is pure headcanon, and that this also kneecaps the notion of "death resistances" for simply entering the netherworld and appearing to stay alive, since anyone entering (like the protagonists) could also just be "temporarily dead" for the remainder of their stay.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I apologize for commenting late, I've had a very shit day. My power was out for majority of the day (main reason I couldn't comment sooner), my family problems aren't going well, and I've still got a multiple profiles on the wiki that need fixing but something always comes up (real life shit). Then when I did comment, my phone ****** up and caused me to screw up the message (which is why the comment I made previously is deleted)

Anyway, I've read through the arguments and will say my piece and after that I'm outta here.

Anyways, I suppose I'll post my own recap.

In PCB, when fighting Yuyuko in Reimu’s route, she says the following;

“Being here is equal to being dead”

This could be interpreted as only dead beings being allowed in the Netherworld,

Yes and no. Being in the Netherworld is obviously the same as being dead because only dead people are suppose to be there which is why it says being there means you have died. This doesn't mean only dead things can exist in the Netherworld.

but that leads me to the second statement in CDS:

“Passing on to the Netherworld and back… wouldn’t that be reincarnation?”

The context here is that Yuyuko will provide refuge to the denizens of the human village should a volcanic eruption occur. Since the process of going to the Netherworld and back is compared to reincarnation, this would mean anybody who enters it would die and then come back to life later on (after all, you need to die in order to reincarnate). We even see an example human villager represented in this cycle as ‘dying’ and coming back to life in a simplistic chart.

It's a comparison, however that doesn't mean it's exactly like that. In a metaphorical way, if someone goes to the afterlife and then back to the living world it can be interpreted as similar to reincarnation as you went to a place that was only meant for dead people and then returned to a place only made for living things.

Finally, as a bit of supporting evidence, even the plants and animals within the Netherworld are dead.

There being dead things in the Netherworld isn't supporting evidence that it kills any living thing that enters it.

As for characters resisting it, basically every main character who has gone to the Netherworld did not die; they continued to live in a location that kills all living beings within it. This is quite obviously resistance to death manipulation.

Now for the counterpoints.

“Yuyuko is saying she’ll grant refuge to the human villagers in that they’ll die, go to the Netherworld naturally, and then she’ll let them go”

There’s a lot wrong with this assumption, and covering it will also cover a few other debunks brought up.

First of all, that’s not what ‘take refuge’ means; It means to seek shelter or protection from potential harm. So, if the villagers have already been killed by the eruption, what exactly are they taking refuge from?

Secondly, the Netherworld doesn’t work like that. If someone is to die naturally, they must first go to Higan and face the Yama’s judgment. From there, they will be shuffled off to the Netherworld, Hell, or Heaven depending on their actions in life. For Yuyuko to grant the human villagers refuge in the Netherworld after they face the Yama’s judgment (as they would have to after being killed in an eruption), this would mean every single villager would have to have lived a life so identical to one another that they all end up in the same afterlife; Obviously a ridiculous assumption.

But let’s say that that does happen, somehow; Turns out this argument still doesn’t work, because it also hinges on the idea that Yuyuko will let them go after a while (she does just straight up say that in the original text, so it isn’t a permanent stay). Thing is, for those who go to the Netherworld post-judgment, they literally cannot leave until they reach nirvana or reincarnate; To assume that Yuyuko could make this a mere temporary stay when the mechanics of how the afterlife in Touhou works directly contradicts this is absurd.

However, if the human villagers are merely invited to the Netherworld and ‘die’ there before coming back, they never face the Yama’s judgment and are free to leave whenever they wish; Therefore, the interpretation that I and other supporters believe (that Yuyuko grants still-living villagers refuge in the Netherworld) avoids the issues of potentially differentiating afterlives, the idea of a permanent stay, and the fact that Mal’s interpretation misrepresents the text (taking refuge from something that already killed you is really funny, but unfortunately unusable in an actual debate).

“The eruption would kill the villagers before Yuyuko or anyone else could evacuate them”

Also wrong for numerous reasons! Volcanic eruptions don’t just kill anybody instantaneously; They take a long time to occur, or even directly threaten nearby settlements. But more than that, the main concern for the human village is stated to be food; They cannot grow any crops with volcanic ash around, after all. While food shortage is a serious issue, it still leaves ample time for alternate solutions; Starvation takes days to occur, and of course food reserves exist.

But let’s say this is as dire as Mal makes it out to be and the villagers have like 10 minutes before they all die horribly; After all, Gensokyo is spatially pretty small, so they wouldn’t have anywhere to go. Problem is, Yuyuko can literally open portals to the Netherworld whenever she wants, and virtually the entire non-human village population is capable of flight. Even in this hypothetical doomsday scenario that is in no way stated or implied by the text, there would still be ample opportunity to get the human villagers to safety.

Actually, I think these were the only two actual points that were made? Everything else was just saying the reasons I and other supporters provided were just flowery language, hyperbole, headcanon, etc. No real arguments or evidence, just ‘you’re wrong and bad and no I will not elaborate’. So if this seems one-sided then I guess that’s because it is?

I don't 100% agree with the counter arguments but this doesn't mean I agree 100% agree with the OP's reasons either.

My Stance

I will suggest possible Resistance to Death Manipulation, nothing more, nothing less. The statement can be seen as you die if you go into the netherworld, however the way it's said can also be see in a metaphorical way regardless if you want to accept it or not as I explained above when addressing each point. We don't get an actual feat of it happening but that doesn't make them completely invalid. The metaphorical argument isn't solid in itself do to the fact that the verse would have to be known for using them on many occasions which doesn't seem to be the case here. It's not right to complete throw away comparisons but I want it to be understood that they "could be" interpreted in a different way than what is being suggested.

This is why my stance is, and will remain "possible" Resistance to Death Manipulation.

As for whatever is going on in this thread. This back and fourth stuff isn't going anywhere. I will not go into it as it has died down, however if someone comments and you find it doesn't make sense or you've addressed it already, don't respond. The only person that should be responding at this point on is the OP, if someone has a question or valid response to the evaluation of what's suggested in the OP. I do not want to see this thread go on for page after page of nothing but the same shit.

I apologize to Mal and Fujiwara for the late response but this is as much as your going to get out of me regarding this Resistance to Death Manipulation topic. If you disagree then that's fine, you can always ask another staff member to comment. As for the rest of the evaluations, I'd rather someone else handle them but I will check in if need be, anyway, stay civil and I hope all of you have a better time then the horrible day I've just had.

 

[Shmooply]

I read the earlier draft of your post before you deleted it and agreed with it, and I still do. A possible resistance to death hax looks like the safest bet.

 

[Malomtek]

I hope all of you have a better time then the horrible day I've just had

Sad to hear you going through all that, hope the rest of your day goes on better. Thanks for your commentary.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, I do personally disagree with a possibly, but I do at least understand your points and am willing to go with a possibly rating.

I'm very sorry to hear about your IRL situation and hope things get better in the near future. And don't worry about commenting here or continuing to help out, given how you've already helped a tremendous amount.

 

[Malomtek]

For what it's worth, I'm fine with a "possible resistance to death manipulation" for entering the netherworld and staying alive in the process.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I apologize for commenting late, I've had a very shit day. My power was out for majority of the day (main reason I couldn't comment sooner), my family problems aren't going well, and I've still got a multiple profiles on the wiki that need fixing but something always comes up (real life shit). Then when I did comment, my phone ****** up and caused me to screw up the message (which is why the comment I made previously is deleted)

Yeesh, horrible luck. Sorry your day went poorly, I hope things sort themselves out for you sooner rather than later.

Thanks for stopping by and evaluating this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So, that just leaves this stuff then.

Spoiler: Everything else that needs to be evaluated (really long)

Acrobatics

So as far as I’m aware, this applies to the main cast primarily due to the ability to weave in and out of complex danmaku patterns while flying (which, AFAIK, would qualify as self-momentum), as well as air dashes, front flips, and the like in the grounded fighters. With that in mind, the fact that I applied it to characters such as Tenryu or Chang’e is pretty blatantly wrong, given how they don’t engage in spell card duels (or any fights at all, for that matter). So remove acrobatics from them and all other non-combatants. I’d also like to add acrobatics to Okina, because while I originally thought applying acrobatics to a canon wheelchair user was kind of cruel, she does in fact show the same skill in dodging danmaku in spite of that, putting her on par with everyone else.

Fairies

Add Immortality (Types 3 & 4). While they do have type 8, fairies can still die; they just come back to life later on. Akyuu also mentions this in PMiSS, stating that they immediately resurrect after death. It’s not like we can just leave it at type 8, either; the immortality page makes it pretty clear that type 8 has to grant at least one other form of immortality:

"The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise."

Type 3 is from their already accepted High-Mid regen.

Also, the key for the species page should be changed to say “At least 10-C, up to 9-B” since we know of the existence of fairies that are only a few inches tall. This would also be a reason to add Small Size (Type 1) to the species page, with the specification that it only applies to some fairies.

Phantoms, Fairies, and Prismrivers

Grouping these all together for convenience.

In PoFV, Komachi says that fairies exist in a similar state to phantoms, in that they have no lifespan. She also says the same about the Prismrivers. Lacking a lifespan is pretty obviously Immortality (Type 1), which should be applied to all phantoms, fairies, and the Prismrivers. And of course, since Komachi can outright see lifespans, she’s definitely an accurate source on this.

I’m aware fairy type 1 immortality is somewhat contradicted by PMiSS saying they are short-lived, but given how it immediately goes on to talk about how reckless fairies are due to their immortality, the context seems to be that they just don’t care if they die, not that they have naturally short lifespans.

Ability Cards

Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and Clairvoyance from Youmu's card granting you half of Youmu's phantom half and from Nazrin's card granting you her ability. Applies to Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, and Sakuya's optional equipment tabs.

All Youkai + Reimu & Marisa

Type 1 Acausality, as none of them were affected by the human village being removed from history. Youkai are reliant on human belief to sustain their existence, so naturally removing the source of that belief would erase youkai from reality. Except that obviously didn’t happen, so this proves that youkai are unaffected by changes to the past.

Reimu and Marisa, being two humans who do in fact rely on the human village (especially so for Marisa, given her family lives there), should also get this from, y’know, not dying.

Beast Youkai

PMiSS describes them as being resistant to mental attacks, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation.

Applies to Chen, Ran, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Shou, Kyouko, Mamizou, Seiran, and Ringo. Also applies to Yuuma since she should be a beast youkai similarly to Saki and Yachie.

17.5 Cast

Reimu, Marisa, Kanako, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre should get Water Manipulation, Absorption, and Healing, since the central mechanic of 17.5 is absorbing water to heal yourself and power your spell cards. The video itself doesn’t really make it apparent but the mechanics are explained more in depth in the video description.

Still More Resistances

I know I already covered some resistances above, but this is for stuff that applies to a big chunk of the cast. I'm not gonna explain literally every character's appearance on the lists below because that'd take an eternity.

Two things first, though. I’m not giving resistances for fighting game characters unless the resistance comes from a story mode, otherwise we’d get an overly inflated number of resistances. Secondly, I am 100% positive I missed some characters due to how hard it is to look through every bit of canon material to determine who’s been where and who’s fought who. If you see anyone who’s missing from a list, please say so, and keep these resistances in mind for future reference should we find another character who would qualify.

Anyone who's canonically fought or interacted with phantoms should get Resistance to Empathic and Mind Manipulation, since phantoms passively affect the minds and emotions of anyone near them, and the characters listed below have no indication that they were ever affected. For the record, I'm not including vengeful spirits, ghosts, poltergeists, or dream souls, since I can't confidently say they're similar enough to phantoms to have the same physiology. I'm also only going by characters who were visibly near phantoms at some point, otherwise I'd have to make a ton of assumptions. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Rumia, Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Alice, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Suika, Komachi, Tenshi, Letty, Chen, Ran, Suika, Wriggle, Mystia, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Mokou, Aki, Eiki, Shizuha, Nitori, Hina, Aya, Orin, Utsuho, Hatate, Kogasa, Luna Child, Sunny Milk, Star Sapphire, Byakuren, Nazrin, Nue, Ichirin, Shou, Joon, Shion, and Kanako.

Then we have Doremy's dream souls, which can instantly put a person to sleep and send their soul to the Dream World. Since these characters get hit by her dream souls repeatedly in Doremy's AoCF story route and are fine, they should get Resistance to Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and BFR. The list of characters this applies to is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Byakuren, Ichirin, Miko, Futo, Mokou, Yukari, Nitori, Kokoro, Joon, Shion, and Sumireko.

Reimu was affected by a dream soul in WaHH, but keep in mind that the chapter of WaHH where this happened was released 2 years prior to AoCF (2015 vs 2017), so it's likely that she developed a resistance over time.

We also have Tenshi attempting to absorb temperament in the form of mist from all across Gensokyo and the Otherworlds in SWR. According to Komachi, temperament is phantoms, and in PMiSS we’re told that phantoms are souls, so Tenshi was absorbing souls in this case (as further demonstrated by phantoms disappearing from the Netherworld). In case you need more evidence to prove these are souls being absorbed, Tenshi also calls it ‘the essence of all living things’. The protagonists, while affected, are still able to fight normally and shrug off the effects for a long time, so they should all have Resistance to Soul Absorption. But it doesn’t stop there. Youmu’s statement makes it clear that this was affecting all living things, not just the SWR cast. Since obviously nobody died or had their souls permanently affected as a result of this, this means literally ******* everyone should have resistance to soul absorption. There are a few exceptions however, such as those that did not exist at the time or were not in Gensokyo, who I’ll list below.

Tenshi (doesn’t count since she was the one doing the absorbing), Benben, Yatsuhashi, Raiko, Sumireko, Aunn, Narumi, Maribel, Renko.

Jesus. Should the universal resistance not go through it should at least still apply to the SWR cast, minus Tenshi.

Next is Hell and Former Hell. In WaHH, it's explained that as a soul travels deeper underground, they'll begin to be purified and ultimately crystalize. Considering Hell is about as deep as you can get, it should be more than deep enough for souls to begin to crystalize (or already be crystalized), so everyone who's visited Hell should get Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Transmutation, and Purification (Type 2) (not Junko's brand of purification, sadly). Additionally, Kasen states that the air in Former Hell is more toxic than the air at a geyser that was emitting poisonous gas, so everyone who's been there should get Resistance to Poison Manipulation (only applies to Former Hell, not any other hell). The list of everyone who's been to Hell or Former Hell is as follows:

Former Hell: Reimu, Marisa, Aya, Sanae, Kanako, Parsee, Suika, Yuugi, Satori, Orin, Okuu, Koishi, Hatate, Ichirin, Murasa, Byakuren, Miko, Shinmyoumaru, Sumireko, Joon, Shion, and Kasen.

Hell: Everyone in the Former Hell list, plus Youmu, Komachi, Eiki, Tenshi, Hecatia, Clownpiece, and Suiki.

Additionally, Reimu, Marisa, Orin, and Utsuho should get Resistance to Extreme Heat. Shouldn't be hard to explain, they all fight while right next to a giant lava lake, and Orin states the temperatures are so hot that the things that burn there don’t even leave ashes behind. Sanae and Cirno also get this since they fight Utsuho inside the reactor core in their Hisoutensoku routes, and both mention how overwhelming the heat is, though they fight Utsuho without issue. Finally, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre also get this due to fighting Utsuho in 17.5, while surrounded on both sides by flames.

Next is the Forest of Magic, which is both stated to change the nature of anything that lives there, the air there is filled with poisonous spores that worsen the health of anyone there, and there are mushrooms that can cause hallucinations just by being near them. Now, the first statement is a bit vague, but since the example given is of a regular jizo statue turning into a magician (Narumi), it seems more like transformation than anything else. You could argue Narumi doesn't resist it because she was obviously transformed, but the way I see it is that she didn't have any innate resistances as a jizo statue since she was just an inanimate object, but now that she's alive she does have her own resistances. The resistances for characters who've gone to the Forest of Magic are Resistance to Transformation, Poison Manipulation, and Perception Manipulation. The list of everyone who's been to the Forest of Magic is as follows:

Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Cirno, Sakuya, Remilia, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Aya, Komachi, Satori, Sumireko, Narumi, Mai, Satono, Rinnosuke, Mamizou, Aki, Eternity, Star Sapphire, Luna Child, and Sunny Milk.

The Netherworld and Heaven

A re-upgrade for the cosmology: not too long ago, the idea that the Netherworld and Heaven are infinite was rejected because Akyuu's statement comparing the Netherworld to Hell was seen as inaccurate or just a rumor. However, this is no longer the case, since in the references section of PMiSS, it's made very clear that Akyuu got her information on the afterlives from The Ministry of Right and Wrong, which oversees the afterlives, so considering this information came from them, we can now confidently say that "the Netherworld is larger than Hell'' is an accurate statement.

What does this change? Well, it gives us a more concrete understanding of the cosmology, but more importantly, Tenshi shaking the Heavens and threatening to destroy all of it, which was originally placed at 4-A/3-B, is now H3-A, some very important evidence for Touhou keeping its current ratings. It also further strengthens the argument for Doremy’s universal dream creation, since she can clearly recreate the Netherworld.

Universal Re-Scaling

As much as I strongly believe in universal Touhou, I have to admit our current profiles do a shit job of explaining why Touhou is universal. Time to fix that.

Suika: Just remove the canopy of the heavens feat, pretty sure a vague ‘shattering the sky’ statement caps out at like. Tier 6 in most circumstances.

Miko: Senkai creation is universal again, maybe: one thing that we all kinda overlooked when we downgraded this feat is that we currently treat Otherworlds as brane worlds, so Senkai’s spatial extent doesn’t really matter; this is a low 2-C creation feat because brane worlds are ******* stupid (but I’m not complaining). So remove the “realm with a moon” stuff and change the description to reference how Senkai is a brane world and branes are low 2-C by default.

Kasen: Same deal as Miko. List Senkai creation, and while the “far superior to Miko” statement is fine by itself, adding the Senkai feat is one less hoop people have to jump through when finding the source of universal AP.

Yukari: I kinda regret adding the constellation feat because it doesn’t really add to the universal justifications. The feat itself is weird anyways since we don’t know if she actually created the individual stars that make up the constellations or just moved pre-existing ones. Get rid of it.

Eirin: Bit of a minor change, the ‘hinted to be able to use a Klein bottle’ thing is a bit weird since WoG confirms it IS a Klein bottle, no speculation needed. Change the description to something like “Can utilize a Klein bottle in combat, which contains infinite mass and is likely 4D”. Furthermore, creating the sealed chamber should be removed. Her profile currently says it might be an illusion, but the text itself is very blatant about how none of it is real. So it's an illusion creation feat that doesn't scale to AP and wouldn't have even been universal, anyways.

Okina: The ‘god of stars’ thing needs to go, literally what ******* purpose does this serve lmao

Doremy: Dreams can contain Hell, which is infinite. That alone is a much better justification than “Otherworlds of varying size”. And now that the Netherworld is infinite too, we should probably add that as well since it also appears in dreams. And of course, the whole “Otherworlds are brane worlds” thing makes size irrelevant anyways. This should be 2-C, but dream scaling isn’t something I’m going to bother debating yet. Though if we can get 2-C accepted here then that’d be pretty cool.

Tenshi: for the love of god why have we still not added the ‘shaking the Heavens’ feat it’s been like 5 years since AoCF came out

Keine: Her Hakutaku form can create history, which according to WoG, creates the future as well. Being able to create the past and future is a pretty blatant timeline creation feat, and thus low 2-C.

Youmu: Add her spell card "Matsuyoi-Reflecting Satellite Slash", it covers an infinite range with energy, can’t get more blatantly H3-A than that.

Komachi: Pretty sure we agreed that her spatial expansion feat doesn't translate to AP. It has no reason to remain.

Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition

Note: LordGriffin has already agreed to this feat.

I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V

Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.

In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.

The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).

We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.

The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.

First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.

In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.

In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.

TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.

 

[Pixy]

I apologize for commenting late, I've had a very shit day. My power was out for majority of the day (main reason I couldn't comment sooner), my family problems aren't going well, and I've still got a multiple profiles on the wiki that need fixing but something always comes up (real life shit). Then when I did comment, my phone ****** up and caused me to screw up the message (which is why the comment I made previously is deleted)

You can rest tho No one mind you if you late Take care yourself first we can wait and I hope it end well for you

 

[Antvasima]

So should we apply Griffin's conclusions here then?

Also, I hope that things will go much better for him.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, he only evaluated part of the second half of the CRT (that being Netherworld death manipulation), so we will still need further input.

I am fine with applying a 'possibly' rating, though I do have my own arguments in favor of a full rating if we are to get a separate evaluation.

For now though, we still have a lot of ground to cover. Even then, Griffin advised waiting for further opinions on the Sanzu River crossing feat, so even according to him we should wait for more input.

 

[Antvasima]

@LordGriffin1000

There is no hurry, given your current real life problems, but after you have recovered, we would appreciate your help with evaluating this:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/amitabha-sized-touhou-revisions-previous-thread-merging.132295/post-4549504

@Confluctor @KingTempest @Eficiente

Your help with this would also be appreciated.

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Eficiente]

@Eficiente

Aapologies, but I really do not feel comfortable to continue to tackle this thread.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I see.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that we will have to wait for @LordGriffin1000 , @KingTempest , and @Confluctor then.

 

[Shmooply]

King was fine with everything except the infinite speed stuff, he was neutral on that and said he doesn't want to be involved with it. I'm pretty sure Confluctor only showed up here to tell everyone to stop bickering.

 

[Confluctor]

I can certainly try to look at some of them.

A bit too long for on thread tbh

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

King was fine with everything except the infinite speed stuff, he was neutral on that and said he doesn't want to be involved with it. I'm pretty sure Confluctor only showed up here to tell everyone to stop bickering.

I'm pretty sure KT only agreed to the ability additions. So that still leaves universal scaling as well as infinite speed.

I can certainly try to look at some of them.

A bit too long for on thread tbh

Hey, I was just doing what was asked of me :v

 

[Shmooply]

i mean we had to go with a big crt because nobody liked that there were five active touhou crts

 

[Antvasima]

I can certainly try to look at some of them.

A bit too long for on thread tbh

Thank you for the help. Maybe you can strictly focus on what LordGriffin has not already evaluated, in order to save time and effort?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

As I said before I'd rather have another take a look at this given my current situation but I'm not going to keep FujiwaraYesMokou waiting especially given the patience. I'll go over the remainder of the stuff today and I'll comment later today or tomorrow.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Really, there's no rush. Impatient as I may be at times, I would much rather you evaluate this when you are in a better position to do so rather than force yourself to do so when dealing with other sources of stress.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, take your time please. I hope that your situation will improve a lot.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Verse-Wide Changes (Still Needs Evaluation)

Acrobatics

So as far as I’m aware, this applies to the main cast primarily due to the ability to weave in and out of complex danmaku patterns while flying (which, AFAIK, would qualify as self-momentum), as well as air dashes, front flips, and the like in the grounded fighters. With that in mind, the fact that I applied it to characters such as Tenryu or Chang’e is pretty blatantly wrong, given how they don’t engage in spell card duels (or any fights at all, for that matter). So remove acrobatics from them and all other non-combatants. I’d also like to add acrobatics to Okina, because while I originally thought applying acrobatics to a canon wheelchair user was kind of cruel, she does in fact show the same skill in dodging danmaku in spite of that, putting her on par with everyone else.

Fairies

Add Immortality (Types 3 & 4). While they do have type 8, fairies can still die; they just come back to life later on. Akyuu also mentions this in PMiSS, stating that they immediately resurrect after death. It’s not like we can just leave it at type 8, either; the immortality page makes it pretty clear that type 8 has to grant at least one other form of immortality:

"The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise."

Type 3 is from their already accepted High-Mid regen.

Also, the key for the species page should be changed to say “At least 10-C, up to 9-B” since we know of the existence of fairies that are only a few inches tall. This would also be a reason to add Small Size (Type 1) to the species page, with the specification that it only applies to some fairies.

Phantoms, Fairies, and Prismrivers

Grouping these all together for convenience.

In PoFV, Komachi says that fairies exist in a similar state to phantoms, in that they have no lifespan. She also says the same about the Prismrivers. Lacking a lifespan is pretty obviously Immortality (Type 1), which should be applied to all phantoms, fairies, and the Prismrivers. And of course, since Komachi can outright see lifespans, she’s definitely an accurate source on this.

I’m aware fairy type 1 immortality is somewhat contradicted by PMiSS saying they are short-lived, but given how it immediately goes on to talk about how reckless fairies are due to their immortality, the context seems to be that they just don’t care if they die, not that they have naturally short lifespans.

Ability Cards

Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and Clairvoyance from Youmu's card granting you half of Youmu's phantom half and from Nazrin's card granting you her ability. Applies to Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, and Sakuya's optional equipment tabs.

All Youkai + Reimu & Marisa

Type 1 Acausality, as none of them were affected by the human village being removed from history. Youkai are reliant on human belief to sustain their existence, so naturally removing the source of that belief would erase youkai from reality. Except that obviously didn’t happen, so this proves that youkai are unaffected by changes to the past.

Reimu and Marisa, being two humans who do in fact rely on the human village (especially so for Marisa, given her family lives there), should also get this from, y’know, not dying.

Beast Youkai

PMiSS describes them as being resistant to mental attacks, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation.

Applies to Chen, Ran, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Shou, Kyouko, Mamizou, Seiran, and Ringo. Also applies to Yuuma since she should be a beast youkai similarly to Saki and Yachie.

17.5 Cast

Reimu, Marisa, Kanako, Murasa, Joon, Shion, and Flandre should get Water Manipulation, Absorption, and Healing, since the central mechanic of 17.5 is absorbing water to heal yourself and power your spell cards. The video itself doesn’t really make it apparent but the mechanics are explained more in depth in the video description.

All of this seems fine, but for Acausality, are those humans the only one's who believe in them? Because if there are other humans than something happening to the single village wouldn't cause their existence problems would it?.

Universal Re-Scaling

As much as I strongly believe in universal Touhou, I have to admit our current profiles do a shit job of explaining why Touhou is universal. Time to fix that.

Suika: Just remove the canopy of the heavens feat, pretty sure a vague ‘shattering the sky’ statement caps out at like. Tier 6 in most circumstances.

Miko: Senkai creation is universal again, maybe: one thing that we all kinda overlooked when we downgraded this feat is that we currently treat Otherworlds as brane worlds, so Senkai’s spatial extent doesn’t really matter; this is a low 2-C creation feat because brane worlds are ******* stupid (but I’m not complaining). So remove the “realm with a moon” stuff and change the description to reference how Senkai is a brane world and branes are low 2-C by default.

Kasen: Same deal as Miko. List Senkai creation, and while the “far superior to Miko” statement is fine by itself, adding the Senkai feat is one less hoop people have to jump through when finding the source of universal AP.

Yukari: I kinda regret adding the constellation feat because it doesn’t really add to the universal justifications. The feat itself is weird anyways since we don’t know if she actually created the individual stars that make up the constellations or just moved pre-existing ones. Get rid of it.

Eirin: Bit of a minor change, the ‘hinted to be able to use a Klein bottle’ thing is a bit weird since WoG confirms it IS a Klein bottle, no speculation needed. Change the description to something like “Can utilize a Klein bottle in combat, which contains infinite mass and is likely 4D”. Furthermore, creating the sealed chamber should be removed. Her profile currently says it might be an illusion, but the text itself is very blatant about how none of it is real. So it's an illusion creation feat that doesn't scale to AP and wouldn't have even been universal, anyways.

Okina: The ‘god of stars’ thing needs to go, literally what ******* purpose does this serve lmao

Doremy: Dreams can contain Hell, which is infinite. That alone is a much better justification than “Otherworlds of varying size”. And now that the Netherworld is infinite too, we should probably add that as well since it also appears in dreams. And of course, the whole “Otherworlds are brane worlds” thing makes size irrelevant anyways. This should be 2-C, but dream scaling isn’t something I’m going to bother debating yet. Though if we can get 2-C accepted here then that’d be pretty cool.

Tenshi: for the love of god why have we still not added the ‘shaking the Heavens’ feat it’s been like 5 years since AoCF came out

Keine: Her Hakutaku form can create history, which according to WoG, creates the future as well. Being able to create the past and future is a pretty blatant timeline creation feat, and thus low 2-C.

Youmu: Add her spell card "Matsuyoi-Reflecting Satellite Slash", it covers an infinite range with energy, can’t get more blatantly H3-A than that.

Komachi: Pretty sure we agreed that her spatial expansion feat doesn't translate to AP. It has no reason to remain.

Obviously I agree with removing the unnecessary stuff that doesn't support the ratings and updating them with more proper descriptions.

The only thing left that I need to evaluate is the resistances minus Death Manipulation Resistance as I've already done that.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Really, there's no rush. Impatient as I may be at times, I would much rather you evaluate this when you are in a better position to do so rather than force yourself to do so when dealing with other sources of stress.

Yes, take your time please. I hope that your situation will improve a lot.

Thank you. I just rather evaluate it when I'm in a solid mood rather than waiting just in case something gets in the way and screws with my day. I only need to evaluate the resistances now though.

 

[Shmooply]

All of this seems fine, but for Acausality, are those humans the only one's who believe in them? Because if there are other humans than something happening to the single village wouldn't cause their existence problems would it?.

Those are the only humans that believe that youkai exist. IIRC, one of the reasons Gensokyo was created was to prevent youkai from dying off due to so many humans lacking belief in their existence.