Amitabha-Sized Touhou Revisions (Previous Thread Merging)

[OnsokunoSonic]

The attack looks like this, it's not a spellcard, literally something she can pull out out her feet.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The attack looks like this, it's not a spellcard, literally something she can pull out out her feet.

Ah, I see. Not quite sure how that supports durability negation, though?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Ah, I see. Not quite sure how that supports durability negation, though?

It's the same white colour is used to signify a gap in space, look at the spellcard "Universe of Matter and Antimatter" or "Ride the Waves, Fight the Ocean"

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, I know it's a gap; However, her attacking with a gap doesn't necessarily negate durability. Now if she's doing so inside the target's body, then yes, it would (since it's more or less organ crushing at that point), but attacking the outside means regular durability should still apply.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

No, I know it's a gap; However, her attacking with a gap doesn't necessarily negate durability. Now if she's doing so inside the target's body, the yes, it would (since it's more or less organ crushing at that point), but attacking the outside means regular durability should still apply.

It's a spatial distortion, an attack that slice the space to be exact, it's still a durability negation. And Yukari can use this attack to attack the opponent.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's a spatial distortion, an attack that slice the space to be exact, it's still a durability negation. And Yukari can use this attack to attack the opponent.

Ehhhhh...

I'm not quite sure what the standards are regarding that; Does this site really consider all spatial distortion/portal-based attacks as dura neg? If so then I'll agree, though either way dura neg is valid based on other stuff.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I'm not quite sure what the standards are regarding that; Does this site really consider all spatial distortion/portal-based attacks as dura neg? If so then I'll agree, though either way dura neg is valid based on other stuff.

Pretty sure cutting space is dura negation.

 

[KingTempest]

From a glance the abilities look fine.

Everything else, leave me out of it

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can't blame you for that :v

Thanks for the evaluation though, it helps a lot.

 

[Malomtek]

Finally, we have the Netherworld, which Yuyuko says being there is equal to being dead. Furthermore, Yuyuko compares the process of visiting and leaving the Netherworld to that of reincarnation, supporting the idea that the Netherworld does in fact kill whatever exists there (since in order to reincarnate, you need to die). Considering numerous characters have visited the Netherworld and were obviously still alive while doing so, they should all get Resistance to Death Manipulation. This obviously doesn’t apply to anyone who is already dead (like Yuyuko).

You're ignoring context here. Both quotes are refer to entering the netherworld as part of the process of dying, with the second one being explicitly in reference to the potential fallout of a volcano's eruption as said fallout affects the Human Village.

Simply entering the netherworld while alive doesn't automatically grant anyone resistance to anything whatsoever.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You're ignoring context here. Both quotes are refer to entering the netherworld as part of the process of dying, with the second one being explicitly in reference to the potential fallout of a volcano's eruption as said fallout affects the Human Village.

Simply entering the netherworld while alive doesn't automatically grant anyone resistance to anything whatsoever.

Uh... How exactly does this prove or disprove anything? If you're assuming that the second statement is bunk because the implication is "they'll die from the volcanic eruption and then go to the Netherworld", that's wrong because Yuyuko says she'll let humans take refuge in the Netherworld before anyone dies. Them entering the Netherworld while still living and then leaving is what induces that cycle of reincarnation, and nothing else.

Also, I never said anybody gets resistances from merely going to the Netherworld; As proven by the second scan, even regular humans can do so. However, doing so will also kill them, and when we see multiple characters explicitly not die when entering the Netherworld, then yes, that is a resistance.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually real quick I wanna add a bit of evidence for this from the PMiSS articles on the Netherworld and Hakugyokurou, which state that even the birds, insects, and other animals in the Netherworld are basically dead. Additionally, the cherry trees there are stated to basically be the ghosts of cherry trees. So the Netherworld killing any and all life that enters it is starting to look more consistent than I initially gave it credit for.

 

[Malomtek]

Uh... How exactly does this prove or disprove anything? If you're assuming that the second statement is bunk because the implication is "they'll die from the volcanic eruption and then go to the Netherworld", that's wrong because Yuyuko says she'll let humans take refuge in the Netherworld before anyone dies. Them entering the Netherworld while still living and then leaving is what induces that cycle of reincarnation, and nothing else.

No. You're acting as if the "passing on to the netherworld" question is somehow before anyone dies. It's not. Yuyuko states that she's going to let the humans "take refuge" in the netherworld "if that happened", that is, the volcanic eruption. Which would kill people. Leaving only their spirits behind.

Also, I never said anybody gets resistances from merely going to the Netherworld; As proven by the second scan, even regular humans can do so. However, doing so will also kill them, and when we see multiple characters explicitly not die when entering the Netherworld, then yes, that is a resistance.

There's no evidence beyond your wild misinterpretations that the netherworld automatically "kills" anyone that enters it. So yes, you basically are arguing that anybody gets resistances from merely entering the netherworld (and staying alive).

Actually real quick I wanna add a bit of evidence for this from the PMiSS articles on the Netherworld and Hakugyokurou, which state that even the birds, insects, and other animals in the Netherworld are basically dead. Additionally, the cherry trees there are stated to basically be the ghosts of cherry trees. So the Netherworld killing any and all life that enters it is starting to look more consistent than I initially gave it credit for.

This is some flowery language that doesn't prove anything. We know that ghosts exist in the netherworld. This just means that those ghosts can be the ghosts of animals too.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No. You're acting as if the "passing on to the netherworld" question is somehow before anyone dies. It's not. Yuyuko states that she's going to let the humans "take refuge" in the netherworld "if that happened", that is, the volcanic eruption. Which would kill people. Leaving only their spirits behind.

No. This is. such a stupid ******* take I'm sorry man. Look at any news coverage on a volcanic eruption from the past decade, and what's the main thing recommended to people in that area? Take shelter. Move away. Seek refuge. Volcanic eruptions don't just instantly ******* slaughter everyone in a miles wide radius; People virtually always have time to move a safer location, and in this case that 'safer location' is the refuge in the Netherworld being offered by Yuyuko.

Also it's a little stupid for Yuyuko to say 'take refuge' if she's referring to people just dying. The definition of 'take refuge' means to to seek protection or shelter from harm; So how, exactly, can one take refuge from a volcanic eruption if the eruption already killed them? Your interpretations simply do not hold up to even the most basic levels of scrutiny.

There's no evidence beyond your wild misinterpretations that the netherworld automatically "kills" anyone that enters it. So yes, you basically are arguing that anybody gets resistances from merely entering the netherworld (and staying alive).

Misinterpretations based on what? The text ******* saying that that's how it works?

This is some flowery language that doesn't prove anything. We know that ghosts exist in the netherworld. This just means that those ghosts can be the ghosts of animals too.

'Flowery language'

So what you're saying is, you have no actual proof to shoot this down. Got it. I'll keep ignoring anything you post that pulls the same flowery language BS because I gotta keep my sanity intact somehow.

Also like. Why the hell are you suddenly debating this mere hours after a thread mod accepted it? You had like an entire week to bring this up and ignored it until it actually got accepted.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, KingTempest.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, I wanna emphasize something from my last post.

The debunk of Netherworld death manip hinges on the idea that human villagers are taking refuge from an event that, in Mal's interpretation, already killed them. However, this is directly contradictory to the actual definition of taking refuge. So either reconcile that inconsistency somehow, or just move on.

 

[Malomtek]

No. This is. such a stupid ******* take I'm sorry man. Look at any news coverage on a volcanic eruption from the past decade, and what's the main thing recommended to people in that area? Take shelter. Move away. Seek refuge. Volcanic eruptions don't just instantly ******* slaughter everyone in a miles wide radius; People virtually always have time to move a safer location, and in this case that 'safer location' is the refuge in the Netherworld being offered by Yuyuko.

Volcanic eruptions do indeed kill people by themselves, if the historic eruption at Pompeii is any example. The volcanic emissions also kill people too, as even the comic scan notes. The Human Village is, well, a village, situated on what is essentially a small island floating in the middle of nowhere. Both the volcanic eruptions and emissions would **** them over, easily.

This isn't hard.

Also it's a little stupid for Yuyuko to say 'take refuge' if she's referring to people just dying. The definition of 'take refuge' means to to seek protection or shelter from harm; So how, exactly, can one take refuge from a volcanic eruption if the eruption already killed them? Your interpretations simply do not hold up to even the most basic levels of scrutiny.

She's giving them refuge as spirits. Then she sends them back to the "living world" once all is said and done.

In fact, what would be the point of offering them refuge in the netherworld if it just auto-kills them anyway? Your entire argument contradicts itself the more I think about it.

'Flowery language'

So what you're saying is, you have no actual proof to shoot this down. Got it. I'll keep ignoring anything you post that pulls the same flowery language BS because I gotta keep my sanity intact somehow.

Also like. Why the hell are you suddenly debating this mere hours after a thread mod accepted it? You had like an entire week to bring this up and ignored it until it actually got accepted.

A single thread mod said "at a glance", the abilities listed "look fine". That's not anything strong or certain enough that I would conclude a revisions thread on.

The quotes you gave where clearly talking about "dead animals" in a "land of the dead" sense (i.e. ghosts), so enough with the pedantry already. The netherworld is a land of ghosts, the "dead animals" there are animal ghosts. It's so obvious I don't even understand why I have to argue this now.

What specific time frame I enter a thread in is none of your business.

 

[Angelzewolf]

No. You're acting as if the "passing on to the netherworld" question is somehow before anyone dies. It's not. Yuyuko states that she's going to let the humans "take refuge" in the netherworld "if that happened", that is, the volcanic eruption. Which would kill people. Leaving only their spirits behind.

Yeah, no. You need proof of this. I don't think even the surrounding context (which you brought up) supports this. No where was it mentioned the humans would've died. Just that the area would be covered in ashes and smoke. And the humans would struggle to grow crops. And that's it. While the eruption might kill some, if any, it is absolutely ridiculous to assume it'd kill all of them. (Especially with the incident resolvers most definitely taking action). And Yuyuko addressed them as a single group. There's nothing to suggest they died prior to entering the Netherworld. And the only mentioning of death was the statement talking about reincarnation. Which addressed them entering the netherworld and leaving. The volcano eruption specifically talked about ruining the living area. Not the death it would cause. (Even the function of the Netherworld doesn't support this. How is it them taking refuge when they died? That's literally where ghosts/spirits primarily go to. It is the land of the dead).

There's no evidence beyond your wild misinterpretations that the netherworld automatically "kills" anyone that enters it. So yes, you basically are arguing that anybody gets resistances from merely entering the netherworld (and staying alive).

You can't bring up "no evidence" when you lack...literally any evidence yourself. The issue is, you're doing what you claim Mokou is. You're misinterpreting the scans while making up some random scenarios that have no barring or even a shred of evidence/support within the context, you again wanted to bring up. If you had evidence, you'd have a better leg to stand on. But it's literally just your interpretation of the events being transpired with, again, no supporting evidence. It's not even "give everyone resistance" because not everyone goes into the Netherworld. And we know if regular villagers enter and leave. They basically reincarnated in some way. Hell, shouldn't even try and enter. There is a barrier in place to keep people out.

This is some flowery language that doesn't prove anything. We know that ghosts exist in the netherworld. This just means that those ghosts can be the ghosts of animals too.

I'm not even gonna give this the light of day.

Edit: Just wanna address the "point" of providing refuge...yeah, I'm pretty sure temporarily dying in, what appears to be, instantly, is a much better experience than burning to death or choking from the thick smoke.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Angelzewolf said it better than I ever could, thank you.

I will, however, bring up one more thing.

Volcanic eruptions do indeed kill people by themselves, if the historic eruption at Pompeii is any example. The volcanic emissions also kill people too, as even the comic scan notes. The Human Village is, well, a village, situated on what is essentially a small island floating in the middle of nowhere. Both the volcanic eruptions and emissions would **** them over, easily.

Yes, I am aware. But it takes time for that to happen. People always try to evacuate from a natural disaster before it kills them, and it seems that you are deliberately ignoring this very basic fact.

She's giving them refuge as spirits. Then she sends them back to the "living world" once all is said and done.

In fact, what would be the point of offering them refuge in the netherworld if it just auto-kills them anyway? Your entire argument contradicts itself the more I think about it.

Do you have a source on that first bit? It doesn't seem to be present in the text that I provided, so I would like to see some sources.

The primary difference between going to the Netherworld as a guest and going there post-death is quite simple; In the former case, one can leave whenever they desire. In the latter case, it is intended to be a permanent stay until they achieve nirvana or reincarnate. One is a temporary, voluntary stay, the other is not. Quite simple.

wait **** that was two things

 

[Malomtek]

Yeah, no. You need proof of this. I don't think even the surrounding context (which you brought up) supports this. No where was it mentioned the humans would've died. Just that the area would be covered in ashes and smoke. And the humans would struggle to grow crops. And that's it. While the eruption might kill some, if any, it is absolutely ridiculous to assume it'd kill all of them. (Especially with the incident resolvers most definitely taking action). And Yuyuko addressed them as a single group. There's nothing to suggest they died prior to entering the Netherworld. And the only mentioning of death was the statement talking about reincarnation. Which addressed them entering the netherworld and leaving. The volcano eruption specifically talked about ruining the living area. Not the death it would cause. (Even the function of the Netherworld doesn't support this. How is it them taking refuge when they died? That's literally where ghosts/spirits primarily go to. It is the land of the dead).

What is this incoherent nonsense I'm reading right now? The Human Village is situated on a small island surrounded by mountains. It absolutely is possible that a sudden eruption would kill all the Human Villagers. And if we're going to go with the notion that some would somehow remain in the wake of a volcanic eruption, why are we also assuming that Yuyuko was referring to every single Human Villager when speaking of them as a general group? It's silly.

The talk of "if that happened" clearly references that Yuyuko would only be taking them in upon the event of the volcanic eruption, which would of course cause lots of deaths. She takes them in, the incident is resolved, she releases them out ("reincarnated" or otherwise). This isn't hard to understand.

You can't bring up "no evidence" when you lack...literally any evidence yourself. The issue is, you're doing what you claim Mokou is. You're misinterpreting the scans while making up some random scenarios that have no barring or even a shred of evidence/support within the context, you again wanted to bring up. If you had evidence, you'd have a better leg to stand on. But it's literally just your interpretation of the events being transpired with, again, no supporting evidence. It's not even "give everyone resistance" because not everyone goes into the Netherworld. And we know if regular villagers enter and leave. They basically reincarnated in some way. Hell, shouldn't even try and enter. There is a barrier in place to keep people out.

Where's the evidence that the netherworld auto-kills people again? If you're going to post these TL;DR screeds, you can at least do better than that.

Yes, I am aware. But it takes time for that to happen. People always try to evacuate from a natural disaster before it kills them, and it seems that you are deliberately ignoring this very basic fact.

And where would the Human Villagers be going again? I repeat, Gensokyo is a small island, floating in essentially the middle of nowhere, and filled with monsters. The Human Village is an unfortified settlement within this island.

I don't think any Human Villager would be able to get too far before the volcanic effects "caught up" to them.

Do you have a source on that first bit? It doesn't seem to be present in the text that I provided, so I would like to see some sources.

The fact that she's taking them in explicitly only after the volcanic eruption occurs. Unless you're arguing that once the volcano erupts, Yuyuko instantly and magically dumps them all in the netherworld via portals or whatever spell.

The primary difference between going to the Netherworld as a guest and going there post-death is quite simple; In the former case, one can leave whenever they desire. In the latter case, it is intended to be a permanent stay until they achieve nirvana or reincarnate. One is a temporary, voluntary stay, the other is not. Quite simple.

And what happens to the supposed "auto-kill" effect upon going the netherworld as a guest? Does that just not occur? Keep in mind that the supposed "auto-killing" nature of the netherworld is what this entire "resistance to death manipulation" argument hinges upon. If the netherworld doesn't actually auto-kill you if you're going there as a guest, there's no reason to assert that anyone has death manipulation resistance for simply being able to enter there and stay alive in the process.

This entire netherworld argument keeps finding ways to contradict itself. It's amazing.

 

[Malomtek]

Edit: Just wanna address the "point" of providing refuge...yeah, I'm pretty sure temporarily dying in, what appears to be, instantly, is a much better experience than burning to death or choking from the thick smoke.

Wait, when did the netherworld "temporarily" kill people? You're throwing all these text-walls at me and accusing me of all sorts of bullshit, yet you're basically inventing fanfiction to shore up your "point". Hypocrite much?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And what happens to the supposed "auto-kill" effect upon going the netherworld as a guest? Does that just not occur? Keep in mind that the supposed "auto-killing" nature of the netherworld is what this entire "resistance to death manipulation" argument hinges upon. If the netherworld doesn't actually auto-kill you if you're going there as a guest, there's no reason to assert that anyone has death manipulation resistance for simply being able to enter there and stay alive in the process.

This entire netherworld argument keeps finding ways to contradict itself. It's amazing.

It still kills them. However, because they do not go through the Yama's judgement and are thus not 'assigned' to the Netherworld, they are not necessarily bound there like with those who are sent there after their natural deaths, and can therefore leave whenever they wish. That is the important distinction here.

Wait, when did the netherworld "temporarily" kill people? You're throwing all these text-walls at me and accusing me of all sorts of bullshit, yet you're basically inventing fanfiction to shore up your "point". Hypocrite much?

Temporarily as in, they die when they enter the Netherworld but come back to life when they leave.

Also cool it with the insults, ******* hell. Going around and calling people hypocrites for no good reason really does not make your argument look any better.

Where's the evidence that the netherworld auto-kills people again? If you're going to post these TL;DR screeds, you can at least do better than that.

It's literally in the OP.

And where would the Human Villagers be going again? I repeat, Gensokyo is a small island, floating in essentially the middle of nowhere, and filled with monsters. The Human Village is an unfortified settlement within this island.

I don't think any Human Villager would be able to get too far before the volcanic effects "caught up" to them.

The Netherworld, because that's where Yuyuko explicitly says they'll go. You are just straight up ignoring the text at this point.

The fact that she's taking them in explicitly only after the volcanic eruption occurs. Unless you're arguing that once the volcano erupts, Yuyuko instantly and magically dumps them all in the netherworld via portals or whatever spell.

Oh you mean creating portals to the Netherworld? An ability that Yuyuko explicitly has? Also it wouldn't necessarily have to be instantly, things like magma and volcanic ash aren't particularly fast, which would give a large enough buffer for evacuation.

Also this has literally already been accepted why the **** are we still here? Just to suffer?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually since KT has accepted most of this stuff, I can probably go ahead and start applying stuff, yeah? Doubt we'll get any other staff input at this rate.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

And before anybody bitches about how hard this will be to evaluate due to being a huge wall of text, you all brought this upon yourselves.

To bad for you, I'm going to "bitch" regardless, especially when I didn't bring this upon myself because I wasn't even there when this shit was suggested. Like for real, I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is not the best way to do a thread. On that note, I still give this a look but it's going to take some time since I'm busy as heck.

Phantoms

Possession from, well, possessing people.

Why does this apply to all Phantoms? You need to provide evidence that they all have that ability.

Reimu

Mind Manipulation from her ofuda dealing mental damage. Note that this is being treated as a unique quality of her ofuda, and as such it can’t just be referring to the pain it causes or their ability to hit non-physical targets, as these qualities also apply to her other techniques.

Looking at this one, I'm going to say it's limited. In the scan it says it's not very effective on the oblivious but if it did mental damage in general, it wouldn't matter if the character was oblivious or not. Me not paying attention shouldn’t stop me from being damaged mentally

Actually since KT has accepted most of this stuff, I can probably go ahead and start applying stuff, yeah? Doubt we'll get any other staff input at this rate.

No, I'm going over some of these additions for the Small Scale Changes and have some issues. I'll post my other issues in a bit.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

wow i really do have the worst timing huh

To bad for you, I'm going to "bitch" regardless, especially when I didn't bring this upon myself because I wasn't even there when this shit was suggested. Like for real, I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is not the best way to do a thread. On that note, I still give this a look but it's going to take some time since I'm busy as heck.

This was mostly meant as a joke, and I'm sorry if it came off as rude or insulting. And yes, I am aware this is not the best way to do a thread, but it was requested both by a staff member and regular users.

Why does this apply to all Phantoms? You need to provide evidence that they all have that ability.

The story treats it as a completely normal phantom with no unique traits whatsoever, so I don't know why we wouldn't.

Looking at this one, I'm going to say it's limited. In the scan it says it's not very effective on the oblivious but if it did mental damage in general, it wouldn't matter if the character was oblivious or not. Me not paying attention shouldn’t stop me from being damaged mentally

Limited mind manip works for me.

No, I'm going over some of these additions for the Small Scale Changes and have some issues. I'll post my other issues in a bit.

Of course. Please take your time.

 

[Angelzewolf]

What is this incoherent nonsense I'm reading right now? The Human Village is situated on a small island surrounded by mountains. It absolutely is possible that a sudden eruption would kill all the Human Villagers. And if we're going to go with the notion that some would somehow remain in the wake of a volcanic eruption, why are we also assuming that Yuyuko was referring to every single Human Villager when speaking of them as a general group? It's silly.

I...I'm actually dumbfounded...my entire brain just kind of shut off when I read this. You...do know, Volcanos don't instantly kill...right? Like...the characters CAN work together to evacuate the villagers...right? Because all of them can fly...and a majority possess powers that could aid in the evacuation...right? The size of Gensokyo is literally irrelevant considering how these characters operate and the powers/abilities they possess. Like, there's not only a somewhat warning sign for when a volcano will erupt, but the actual killing process is much slower than the characters can act. (Hell, some characters can solo rescue due to their abilities). Even IF it was sudden, again. A volcano's death rate would not exceed the speed of a single resolver like Reimu. Much LESS multiple with powers to absolute slow down the effects and speed up the rescue.
As for why we're assuming Yuyuko meant all...because there's nothing to suggest she was singling out a group. The entire time she spoke plural and only addresses them as a group "villagers". Never once separating them as individuals or even subsections. The most silly thing one could do is just assume she was only referring to those who died when nothing in canon suggests that. (Almost as silly as assuming even the majority would die in this particular world).

The talk of "if that happened" clearly references that Yuyuko would only be taking them in upon the event of the volcanic eruption, which would of course cause lots of deaths. She takes them in, the incident is resolved, she releases them out ("reincarnated" or otherwise). This isn't hard to understand.

It's not hard to understand, but you do seem to be struggling. No, nothing AT ALL references death. Making assumptions isn't a direct reference. Like...actually dude, THAT statement is legit AFTER she mentions the fact they can't grow crops. And even if you want to claim she wasn't referring to said crops. Satori never mentioned death. Again, only mentioning how the village would be destroyed. Talking specifically about the environment and the state of the village. Clear cut, no. They were not talking about deaths. But the state the village would be in after the eruption.

Where's the evidence that the netherworld auto-kills people again? If you're going to post these TL;DR screeds, you can at least do better than that.

The same place where your evidence is. Joking aside, I was referring to the current discussion. Since right now, we're debating whether or not the Netherworld does indeed kill people instantaneously using the scans provided.
Again, you lose all right to ask for evidence or even make such comments as "You can do better than that" when you're inherently allergic to bringing up evidence. The problem is, the evidence is right there...presented to you. You're just trying to jump through loops and hurdles to debunk it while making a nonsensical debunk.

Wait, when did the netherworld "temporarily" kill people? You're throwing all these text-walls at me and accusing me of all sorts of bullshit, yet you're basically inventing fanfiction to shore up your "point". Hypocrite much?

Mal, stay with me. Very complicated stuff, I know...but when I said "temporarily" it...is temporarily. They go and leave. They're not staying there, otherwise that be known as permanent. You know? Right? When you don't stay in a location for long, that's only a temporary visit...correct? That aside, I love the "hypocrite" comment. Like, I'm okay with that. It's inaccurate but it does prove something. That you are aware of what you do. You have the level of self awareness needed to understand your actions regarding making up "fanfictions". It's the first level, so now it'd be nice if you start providing evidence for your claims. Like...you know...You're suppose to do in a debate.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Let's maybe put the Netherworld stuff on hold for now, now that Griffin is evaluating stuff, yeah? Carrying on two conversations at once seems like it'd lead to confusion.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Let's maybe put the Netherworld stuff on hold for now, now that Griffin is evaluating stuff, yeah? Carrying on two conversations at once seems like it'd lead to confusion.

Fair. I'll take a pause until Grif evaluates the stuff he wants.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Flandre

Should get a pretty big buff to her ability to destroy anything. In 17.5, she completely obliterates Yuuma and everything she's absorbed, to the point where it looks like nothing remains. This is important, since this would've extended to her soul, since phantoms are souls and phantoms are pretty consistently shown to be visible. The fact that not even a phantom remained is pretty clear evidence that Flan's ability is just Existence Erasure on a spiritual level. Yuuma would also have mid-godly regen due to coming back from this, but she doesn't have a profile yet.

That's not how it works, it literally says "it looked as though" which means it isn't certain. There is nothing that says it was truly erased. And being able to destroy souls isn't Existence Erasure eith

Another thing to note is range; she destroyed Yuuma's stomach, which isstated to be infinite, and claimed she would destroy the infinite water supply of the Sanzu River, so both of these would qualify as H3-A range with hax.

The infinite stomach statement sounds like hyperbole in my opinion but the Sanzu River one seems fine.so I guess High 3-A range is fine.

Akyuu

Additionally, her ability should be considered Photographic Memory.

Why?

Patchouli

Can bind ghosts to a set location which is likely Soul Manipulation.

This would be Sealing and Non-Physical Interaction, not Soul Manipulation

Yuuma

Made a page for her.

Sandbox: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:FujiwaraYesMokou/sandbox#Yuuma_Toutetsu
(Ignore the WIP Risk of Rain and WBaWC profiles I’ll finish those eventually :v)

Given that Flandre was sent by Okina with explicit orders to kill Yuuma I don’t think the scaling is questionable. I shouldn’t have to explain that nobody holds back during an assassination attempt.

So long as it has the proper justifications, scans and references i don't have a problem with the creation of the page.

Other than what I've mentioned above, the other powers and abilities additions seem fine.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's not how it works, it literally says "it looked as though" which means it isn't certain. There is nothing that says it was truly erased. And being able to destroy souls isn't Existence Erasure eith

Soul destruction seems reasonable. I still think non-EE options would leave a visible trace, but I won't dwell on it.

Why?

Akyuu describes her ability as not being able to forget things once seen, with memories even persisting through several reincarnations.

This would be Sealing and Non-Physical Interaction, not Soul Manipulation

She already has NPI, but sealing does seem a bit more reasonable.

So long as it has the proper justifications, scans and references i don't have a problem with the creation of the page.

Other than what I've mentioned above, the other powers and abilities additions seem fine.

I can probably go back and add a few scans but for the most part I think every potential issue has already been hammered out.

Thanks for helping out, I highly appreciate it.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition

I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V

Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.

In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.

The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).

We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.

The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.

First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.

In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.

In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.

TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.

That should be everything, I believe. I swear to god if this goes unevaluated despite everyone getting on my ass about merging the threads, I'll commit self-"Let This Whole World Burn Away to Nothing!"

Also I personally don't see the issue here regarding the Sanzu River being infinite in this case. It has the statements and no contradictions from what I'm aware so I'm fine with this feat.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Akyuu describes her ability as not being able to forget things once seen, with memories even persisting through several reincarnations.

Photographic Memory is fine with me then.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, Griffin. It is very appreciated.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Perfect. I believe everything in the minor abilities section has been settled, then? And it looks as though the Sanzu River feat has been accepted as well, though given how I literally just had a case of speaking too soon, I'll hold my tongue on that for now

As usual, thank you for helping here Griffin.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

The story treats it as a completely normal phantom with no unique traits whatsoever, so I don't know why we wouldn't.

Forget to comment on this. If the story treats them as standard powers then I don’t have an issue applying it to other Phantoms.

Perfect. I believe everything in the minor abilities section has been settled, then? And it looks as though the Sanzu River feat has been accepted as well, though given how I literally just had a case of speaking too soon, I'll hold my tongue on that for now

The abilities can be added but yeah, I'd wait a bit for the Sanzu River feat.

 

[Malomtek]

It still kills them. However, because they do not go through the Yama's judgement and are thus not 'assigned' to the Netherworld, they are not necessarily bound there like with those who are sent there after their natural deaths, and can therefore leave whenever they wish. That is the important distinction here.


Temporarily as in, they die when they enter the Netherworld but come back to life when they leave.

Also cool it with the insults, ******* hell. Going around and calling people hypocrites for no good reason really does not make your argument look any better.


It's literally in the OP.


The Netherworld, because that's where Yuyuko explicitly says they'll go. You are just straight up ignoring the text at this point.


Oh you mean creating portals to the Netherworld? An ability that Yuyuko explicitly has? Also it wouldn't necessarily have to be instantly, things like magma and volcanic ash aren't particularly fast, which would give a large enough buffer for evacuation.

Also this has literally already been accepted why the **** are we still here? Just to suffer?

I...I'm actually dumbfounded...my entire brain just kind of shut off when I read this. You...do know, Volcanos don't instantly kill...right? Like...the characters CAN work together to evacuate the villagers...right? Because all of them can fly...and a majority possess powers that could aid in the evacuation...right? The size of Gensokyo is literally irrelevant considering how these characters operate and the powers/abilities they possess. Like, there's not only a somewhat warning sign for when a volcano will erupt, but the actual killing process is much slower than the characters can act. (Hell, some characters can solo rescue due to their abilities). Even IF it was sudden, again. A volcano's death rate would not exceed the speed of a single resolver like Reimu. Much LESS multiple with powers to absolute slow down the effects and speed up the rescue.
As for why we're assuming Yuyuko meant all...because there's nothing to suggest she was singling out a group. The entire time she spoke plural and only addresses them as a group "villagers". Never once separating them as individuals or even subsections. The most silly thing one could do is just assume she was only referring to those who died when nothing in canon suggests that. (Almost as silly as assuming even the majority would die in this particular world).



It's not hard to understand, but you do seem to be struggling. No, nothing AT ALL references death. Making assumptions isn't a direct reference. Like...actually dude, THAT statement is legit AFTER she mentions the fact they can't grow crops. And even if you want to claim she wasn't referring to said crops. Satori never mentioned death. Again, only mentioning how the village would be destroyed. Talking specifically about the environment and the state of the village. Clear cut, no. They were not talking about deaths. But the state the village would be in after the eruption.



The same place where your evidence is. Joking aside, I was referring to the current discussion. Since right now, we're debating whether or not the Netherworld does indeed kill people instantaneously using the scans provided.
Again, you lose all right to ask for evidence or even make such comments as "You can do better than that" when you're inherently allergic to bringing up evidence. The problem is, the evidence is right there...presented to you. You're just trying to jump through loops and hurdles to debunk it while making a nonsensical debunk.


Mal, stay with me. Very complicated stuff, I know...but when I said "temporarily" it...is temporarily. They go and leave. They're not staying there, otherwise that be known as permanent. You know? Right? When you don't stay in a location for long, that's only a temporary visit...correct? That aside, I love the "hypocrite" comment. Like, I'm okay with that. It's inaccurate but it does prove something. That you are aware of what you do. You have the level of self awareness needed to understand your actions regarding making up "fanfictions". It's the first level, so now it'd be nice if you start providing evidence for your claims. Like...you know...You're suppose to do in a debate.

All this convoluted headcanon? Irrelevant.

This entire "resistance to death manipulation due to entering the netherworld and staying alive" thing can only go one of two ways:

1. The netherworld has magical insta-death auto-kill properties on living beings, meaning that it would be an absurdity for Yuyuko to attempt to take still-living humans into refuge into the netherworld, where they'll just die anyway.

2. The netherworld doesn't have those properties, which means that nobody gets resistances simply from entering it and staying alive.

Bullshit headcanons about "temporarily dying" when going inside the netherworld and "un-dying" when you leave can only work against any sort of "resistance", because then there's no reason why any main character shouldn't be "temporarily dead" from going inside the netherworld too.

@Antvasima @LordGriffin1000 can you take note of this as well?

 

[Malomtek]

Mal, stay with me. Very complicated stuff, I know...but when I said "temporarily" it...is temporarily. They go and leave. They're not staying there, otherwise that be known as permanent. You know? Right?

Get off your high horse and quit this condescending bullshit. You've just been posting headcanons, and you should own up to that.

 

[Angelzewolf]

All this convoluted headcanon? Irrelevant.

This entire "resistance to death manipulation due to entering the netherworld and staying alive" thing can only go one of two ways:

1. The netherworld has magical insta-death auto-kill properties on living beings, meaning that it would be an absurdity for Yuyuko to attempt to take still-living humans into refuge into the netherworld, where they'll just die anyway.

2. The netherworld doesn't have those properties, which means that nobody gets resistances simply from entering it and staying alive.

Bullshit headcanons about "temporarily dying" when going inside the netherworld and "un-dying" when you leave can only work against any sort of "resistance", because then there's no reason why any main character shouldn't be "temporarily dead" from going inside the netherworld too.

@Antvasima @LordGriffin1000 can you take note of this as well?

Summed Up: "I have no evidence to debunk the claim so I'll claim headcanon to help me out".

You're the only one making some convoluted argument. Throwing in evidence that's not present and then refusing to even provide a bit of canon material to at least justify your statements. At the very least, it seems you're sitting down and letting the mods evaluate themselves. So, I'll do the same.

Get off your high horse and quit this condescending bullshit. You've just been posting headcanons, and you should own up to that.

Bruh, what? You literally called me a hypocrite and spoke to me in a condescending manner. Now you're upset with me for doing the same? Whether you meant to or not, you didn't exactly present yourself in a way that would encourage me to respect you. I gave you the same energy you gave me. Not a single thing I said was headcannon? The scan is right there? You know. Evidence. The thing you lack and refuse to even acknowledge you lack/refuse to even use. I'm using the information present. One scan talks about entering the Netherworld is similar to death and the next scan talks about giving the humans refuge if the village gets destroyed. You're twisting the information and throwing in random details that aren't ever addressed or hinted at within the scans like the humans somehow dying from the volcano when that is highly unlikely to be the case. I'm genuinely confused why you think I should respect you? Most of the time I speak to you normally. The only times I get snarky or what not is when you start to show an attitude. (And I'm going to assume the best case scenario and say, you don't mean to have said attitude or realize you're doing it but nonetheless, it's there). And thus, I respond the same way. Yes, I should definitely not do so and remain civil. So, I'll apologize for that. But I don't think you have the right to complain about my attitude or talk about "headcanon" when the only support you ever bring is...well...headcanon.

Outside of that, I think I'll be ending the discussion here. I rather not derail the thread with another back and forth. If you wish to showcase evidence or start over with a more respectful tone, I'll match the energy and show you respect. Otherwise, have a good day.

 

[Antvasima]

Can everybody here please try to be polite and respectful to each other? I am overworked and stressed out and do not have the energy to deal with sorting it out right now.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Can everybody here please try to be polite and respectful to each other? I am overworked and stressed out and do not have the energy to deal with sorting it out right now.

I'll try to be more respectful going forward.