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Ah, screw it. FTL Travel speed Dr. Eggman (Game) CRT

ElixirBlue

ElixirBlue

VS Battles
Content Moderator
10,272
2,754
This is one of the more controversial stat additions that I, at one point, disagree with. But as time went on, the logic against FTL Dr. Eggman got weaker and weaker in my mind till it became more factual than not.

So, I'm scaling Sonic's Base speed to Eggman and give the Super Peel Out further justification of being faster than Sonic's Base Speed

The scaling for Dr. Eggman's only known running speed during the Classic Era:

giphy.gif

Ending of Sonic 1

giphy.gif

Ending of Sonic 2

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Ending of Sonic & Knuckles or Sonic 3 & Knuckles

What really convinced me:

Of the 4 Mainline (CD is mainline-ish), Dr. Eggman consistently runs ahead of Sonic the Hedgehog with Sonic only able to keep up. Its well-known that many believe (including myself) this can only be considered Game Mechanics or Classic Sonic's "Casual Speed" that allowed Dr. Eggman to appear just as fast as Classic Sonic's base speed. There are reasons for the common belief, like Eggman is a human and Sonic is supposed to be the fastest guy around.

While Dr. Eggman being human really doesn't mean anything in fiction when it comes to how strong or fast a character is, Sonic the Hedgehog is known to be the fastest thing around. So its not plausible for Dr. Eggman run as fast as Sonic.

I believed that Dr. Eggman couldn't scale either. But I have changed my mind on it.

1.

Dr. Eggman does already scale to Sonic's base speed, due to being the final boss of every classic level and future boss fights in the Modern era. A famous example in the Modern era is the Opening of Unleashed, as Dr. Eggman is operating a Mech that is controlled by his own movements. Almost intercepting Sonic's Homming Attack and missing by a hair, and grabbing Sonic. Sonic wasn't using his Boost during his fight with Dr. Eggman.

giphy.gif

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2.


Ending of Sonic CD

Now this ending is what really convinced me Dr. Eggman's apparent speed is more than Game Mechanics. Sonic isn't able to pass Dr. Eggman in Sonic 1, 2 and 3 & Knuckles but is able to past Dr. Eggman in Sonic CD. Out of the 4 Classic games, Sonic CD is the only one Sonic has access to the Super Peel Out, which is a known Stat increase higher than Sonic's base speed. With the Super Peel Out, Sonic is able to outrun and surpass Dr. Eggman.

Now, the discussion of Eggman's speed came from Sonic 2, as Gamers reaching the ending and using the spindash reach top speed in order to catch Dr. Eggman. The issue with that is, the Spindash is not a stat booster like the Super Peel Out. It allows Sonic to reach top speed from a standstill. If Eggman already scales to Sonic's top speed without any speed amps, then the Spin Dash doesn't let Sonic catch him.

sonic.fandom.com

Spin Dash

The Spin Dash (スピンダッシュ, Supin Dasshu?) is a move that appears in the Sonic the Hedgehog series. It is a variant of the Spin Attack where the user blasts forward with a revved-up Spin Attack from a stationary position. It is also one of Sonic's signature techniques. Since its introduction, the...
sonic.fandom.com sonic.fandom.com


IMG_1419.jpg


Why this works for me, narratively, the Super Peel Out keeps Sonic being the fastest guy around, while keeping Eggman scaling to his base speed in Boss fights and these Classic game endings making sense.

Is Dr. Eggman a Human?

Yes.

Shouldn't he scale to other humans?

Not really. For one, humans as a species don't have many feats or justifications in the Games for Eggman to scale to them and vice versa, other than "human". There are times when other humans have shown to scale to Sonic and Co., at least in reaction and combat speed.

B-3x Hot Shot​

R-1/A Flying Dog​

F-6t Big Foot​

Blue Falcon​

and

Heavy Dog​

All operated by humans that have directly fought Rouge, Sonic, and notably Shadow, like any other Boss.
sonic.fandom.com

G.U.N. robots

sonic.fandom.com sonic.fandom.com

Dr. Eggman himself has so much scaling to Sonic and Co.'s base speed in Reaction and Combat Speed, who most of the cast treats Dr. Eggman seriously, thats it's unquestionable Eggman scales without looking at other humans.

Classic Sonic using "Casual Speed"

So, I know why this idea of Sonic having a casual speed during the Classic Games came to be. Cause he was chasing Eggman and didn't catch up. I mean, an explanation had to be created in the face of Game Mechanics for the story to make sense with Sonic's narrative to be the fastest guy around. But Sonic not trying to catch up to Eggman does run counter to the story of the Classic games.

Before going into that, some believe Classic Sonic shares the same personality as Modern Sonic and both view Dr. Eggman the same way. Yes, in Modern times, Sonic still takes Eggman seriously but he isn't urgent about it. But in Sonic Generations, before Classic meets Modern and realize he is standing next to himself, in comparison, dashes immediately towards Classic Eggman when he realize Classic Eggman is up to something.




Another thing people also believe, Classic Sonic had shown annoyance to Dr. Eggman, instead of seeing him as a serious threat. They imply since Sonic showed annoyance to Eggman, he wouldn't have ran after Dr. Eggman seriously.

But, the only time Sega showed Classic Sonic being annoyed by something, it was a comment by Amy Rose.

IMG_1424.jpg


The story of the Classic Games, as the games went on, had Dr. Eggman prove more and more as a character to be stop. Sonic 2's no rings boss fight against Mecha Sonic, only to follow it up without rings against the Death Egg Robot. The final levels of Sonic 3 & Knuckles called for Sonic to take everything more serious than before, as he spent Sonic 3 to prevent the Death Egg from being launched, only for Eggman to succeed and launch it anyway in Sonic & Knuckles, but this time, Dr. Eggman had the Master Emerald too, the bigger emerald than the Emeralds that allow him to go Super Sonic.

With Sonic's efforts in Sonic 3, Sonic wouldn't have taken the situation in & Knuckles easy going, especially after the Death Egg successfully launched.

Any examples of Dr. Eggman's travel speed in the Modern Era?

There is one example. Sonic Lost World. When the Zeti broke free from Dr. Eggman's control, they turned his robots on him and Sonic & Tails. Tails got hit and Sonic grabbed him to make run to retreat. Eggman follows behind, running alongside him and keeping up.

giphy.gif


I don't count this however, since it clearly showed Sonic decelerated to chat with Tails.

Edit, Adventure Era:

I have found a Travel Speed scaling for Eggman but its doesn't come from Sonic and takes place during the Adventure Era.

giphy.gif


If approve, would Modern Eggman scale to Modern Sonic's base travel speed?

No, this is only for Eggman to scale to Classic Sonic's speed. Modern's base speed has grown so fast, that even in the Meta Era, Dr. Eggman has been relying on other energies or fighting Sonic in a straight line like a fighter jet, to keep up.

  • Sonic Colors, Eggman used the Wisps energy to fight Sonic.
  • Sonic Generations, Eggman used the Time Eater to fight Sonic/Super Sonic. Even in Generations, Eggman used the Egg Dragoon to fight Modern Sonic, a machine powered by Dark Gaia energy.
  • Sonic Lost World, Eggman aborbed the Planet's Energy to fight Sonic.
  • Sonic Forces, Eggman used the Phantom Ruby to fight Sonic.

Dr. Eggman has lacked a fight with Sonic's speed without a crutch for a very long time now, evidence Sonic's growing Speed and AP is giving Eggman trouble to keep up.



So, yeah, CRT for requesting Dr. Eggman's travel speed to scale to Classic Sonic's.
 
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Is Dr. Eggman a Human?

Yes.
Click to expand...
Yes, but actually no. He was in an accident with the chaos emeralds and transmuted according to an official website made by Sonic Team.
That gives me at least more than enough of a clue he could vary from a normie human from that exposure. Humans are otherwise shown to be pretty grounded in the series physically. Cartoony stars spinning around Eggman's head gag when he got hit by a rock thrown by Kwod aside scaling him to normies. He has a lot of stuff he can do with his punches in Sonic Riders series that definitely normal humans couldn't do.

For the crt as a whole, I think Eggman narratively being capable of sustaining anything close to Classic's Sonic speed over really, really long distances unlike Sonic who's actually claimed to be capable to cross such distances like across continents such as in Sonic World Adventure (Sonic Unleashed) could be a factor in why he cannot be capable of long travels like this in the story proper, but short burst sprints here are possible.
 
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Mephistus said:
For the crt as a whole, I think Eggman narratively being capable of sustaining anything close to Classic's Sonic speed over really,really long distances unlike Sonic who's actually claimed to be capable to cross such distances like across continents such in Sonic: World Adventure / Sonic Unleashed could be a factor in why he can be capable of sprints like this in the story proper, but short burst sprints here are possible.
Click to expand...
I do agree Eggman has a Stamina issue. Likely why he is always shown siting.

Wait, I have found a travel speed feat scaling for Dr. Eggman in the Modern Era. Well, its from the Adventure Era. I'll add it to the OP under Modern Examples.
 
Mephistus said:
Yes, but actually no. He was in an accident with the chaos emeralds and transmuted according to an official website made by Sonic Team.
That gives me at least more than enough of a clue he could vary from a normie human from that exposure. Humans are otherwise shown to be pretty grounded in the series physically. Cartoony stars spinning around Eggman's head gag when he got hit by a rock thrown by Kwod aside scaling him to normies. He has a lot of stuff he can do with his punches in Sonic Riders series that definitely normal humans couldn't do.
Click to expand...
But I wonder how canon it is. One of the reasons Sonic Boom's original origin was cut, if I remember this to be accurate, was because Sonic Team might make their own origin story one day.
 
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No, I disagree immensely with this. Most of this evidence is just "Eggman runs as Sonic does" from the classic games, things that literally everyone sees as being gameplay mechanics because Sonic is the fastest thing alive. No. Absolutely not
 
I don't really know how to feel about this, ngl. Some feels like game mechanics, but the sonic CD makes this is a strong argument in favour of the upgrade. Hmmm. It's quite complicated.


I have a question, does Sonic's speed come from the game or the lore/guidebook/extra game materials such as a novel or something?
 
I guess he keeps up in short burst he clearly isn’t faster as much as he is “equal” he always had a head start but sonic is still more consistent I think this is fine nothing really contradicts it also isn’t eggman still relatively fast in the chao garden.
 
Well, I wanna post Sonic 1's Manual that describes the Story.

English:
The English story prologue found in the original western manuals:

Crush Dr. Robotnik!

Dr. Ivo Robotnik, the mad scientist, is snatching innocent animals and turning them into evil robots! Only one tough dude can put an end to the demented scientist’s fiendish scheme. It’s Sonic, the real cool hedgehog with the spiked haircut and power sneakers that give him super speed.

Help Sonic fight hordes of metal maniacs and do the loop with the Super Sonic Spin Attack. Speed down twisting tunnels and swing over dangerous booby traps. Leap across lava pits and dodge burning rocks. Then splash through the chilling waters in an underground cavern. And if you’re lucky, you can warp to the secret zone where you spin around in a floating maze! Your greatest challenge lurks in a secret lab where you come face to face with Dr. Robotnik himself!

Spin through space, loop ’til you’re dizzy, save the animals and become the super hero. Be Sonic! Be atomic!
Click to expand...

Japanese:
A translation of the story prologue from the Japanese manual:[1]

The evil mad scientist Dr. Eggman is up to his old nasty tricks again. "Sonic…that annoying, impertinent hedgehog. Thanks to him, my great plans are always laid to waste! Oh, but this time, I'm going to rub him out with the power of science! Ha ha ha ha ha…"

South Island is a treasure trove of gems and ancient ruins. They say that it's the island where the mystical Chaos Emeralds lie. The Chaos Emeralds are a super-material that give energy to all living beings. Also, when applied to scientific purposes, they can be used for nuclear and laser based weaponry. However, nobody knows exactly how to get a hold of these emeralds. At the same time, though, they do say that the reason why South Island is always moving is because the emeralds are somewhere inside the island's hazy depths.

One day, crisis visited upon the island. And who showed up with it but Dr. Eggman and his cronies. "I'll find those emeralds even if I have to dig up the entire island to do it!"

Dr. Eggman set up a fort in one corner of the island, and went about carrying out his plan.

"Eggman, you still haven't had enough?" Sonic hurried as soon as he heard the news. Dr. Eggman never seemed to leave him alone, even though Sonic had beaten him every time so far. It sounded like Dr. Eggman considered Sonic his sworn enemy, but he was never any match for Sonic.

However, this time something is amiss.

"Have you seen it, Sonic? This time is going to be different! Because this time, I've turned all the animals on the island into robots!"

"E...Everybody!?"

"All of them go about in accordance to my orders. In other words, Sonic, everyone on the island is your enemy! Gya— Ha ha ha ha ha ha ^cough^ ^ack^ ^ahem^. This time, the world really will be all mine!"

This is terrible! Hurry! Sonic the Hedgehog - everyone is waiting for your help!
Click to expand...

Ignoring the fact Sonic 1's Jap manual heavily implies Sonic 1 is not the first time Game Sonic and Game Eggman fought, neither Manual states Sonic is the faster in the verse. The both Manuals do state Sonic has Super Speed, but, at this time, nothing implies other characters can't scale to him.

Japan's states Eggman was never any match but... I don't believe that implies stats, since Boss fights during and after the Classic Era still have Sonic and Eggman having dynamic fights, with Sonic Unleashed being the biggest factor after so many battles that Eggman can still put up a fight against Sonic. So more than the alternative, this is likely in relation to combat skill.

Also, I do believe Eggman was weaker in combat before Sonic 1. Sonic 1 is implied in the manual to be the first time Dr. Eggman had a Robot Army. Each Classic Game has Eggman ramping up the stakes, but I'm starting to get off topic.
 
unknown.png


Side-by-side with Eggman when describing the characters as of their first game appearance from Sonic 1, Sonic is straight-up called the fastest thing alive within the Sonic Encyclopedia. Can't really be the fastest thing alive if you have an equal. I don't agree with Eggman scaling flatly to Sonic. The prospect is ridiculous that Eggman is physically on-par with Sonic in any regard to be frank (except for durability, for obvious reasons), and I don't think a repeated gimmick should change that. Sonic being referred to as the fastest thing alive seems to prove that it exists solely for Eggman to escape, and the fact that he does this in later games (where Sonic should be faster, mind you) proves this. Not to mention this would make him scale above some higher-end machinery (those Eggrobos) that are built for the sole purpose of attempting to even remotely compete with the Classic Cast (in which they're still relatively fodder, AND Knuckles' section with the Eggrobo boss is insult to injury since the Eggrobos need machinery themself). So I heavily disagree with this.
 
ShakeResounding said:
unknown.png


Side-by-side with Eggman when describing the characters as of their first game appearance from Sonic 1, Sonic is straight-up called the fastest thing alive within the Sonic Encyclopedia. Can't really be the fastest thing alive if you have an equal. I don't agree with Eggman scaling flatly to Sonic. The prospect is ridiculous that Eggman is physically on-par with Sonic in any regard to be frank (except for durability, for obvious reasons), and I don't think a repeated gimmick should change that. Sonic being referred to as the fastest thing alive seems to prove that it exists solely for Eggman to escape, and the fact that he does this in later games (where Sonic should be faster, mind you) proves this.
Click to expand...
"The Fastest Thing Alive" is a nickname Sonic acquired after years in the games and the Encyclopedia uses it as a nickname, not anything blatant "Sonic was the fastest thing in Sonic 1". Sonic in Sonic 1 had no nickname to give him because Sonic didn't have a reputation in Sonic 1. As the Encyclopedia is introducing Sonic's overall character which won't be its intention to do so when talking about the later games, "The Fastest Thing Alive" is what Sonic is commonly known as today.



Also, wouldn't being called "The Fastest Thing Alive" all the way back in Sonic 1 by the Encyclopedia with advance knowledge on the series' history (which now includes Forces knowing Sonic passively gets faster) neg Shadow's speed scaling to Sonic? It's far later in the timeline in SA2. Since Shadow is alive in Sonic 1 and the encyclopedia knows that, with Forces (and you yourself💙) have proven Sonic passively gets faster over time, Shadow's speed scaling to Sonic in SA2 would be null and we'd have to conclude Sonic was holding back there as well. :V Or ignore that logic, be bias, and only apply that logic to Eggman.

ShakeResounding said:
Not to mention this would make him scale above some higher-end machinery (those Eggrobos) that are built for the sole purpose of attempting to even remotely compete with the Classic Cast (in which they're still relatively fodder, AND Knuckles' section with the Eggrobo boss is insult to injury since the Eggrobos need machinery themself). So I heavily disagree with this.
Click to expand...

Eggrobos:
Not sure where you want to take the Eggrobos in retaliation to Eggman, since they aren't meant to run away from Sonic but shoot him (Base Eggrobos) when he appears.

Also, I wouldn't use any of the robots (and for the purposes of this CRT, Eggman himself) operating the Eggman's Machines as an anti-feat of sorts. I don't think anyone here scales Mecha Sonic's speed below the Mech he is operating and choosing to do so as an anti-feat for him.

giphy.gif


As for the Eggrobos themselves, Knuckles' boss fights show the Eggrobos and Dr. Eggman have the same durability, since they both react the same way to getting blown up. (Mecha Sonic doesn't react, making his Durability scale above both the Eggrobo and Dr. Eggman, considering Mecha fights Sonic 3 times and then Knuckles, that kind of tracks). "Built for the sole purpose of attempting to even remotely compete with the Classic Cast" and yet scaling to Dr. Eggman, which its an anti-feat on the Eggrobos, since Dr. Eggman had no feats to anti-scale the Eggrobos. Well, except the feat of keeping pace ahead of Sonic.

IMG_1515.png

IMG_1516.png


Returning to Speed-wise, they all operate Eggman's mechs are the same speed as Eggman himself (Also like to mention again Mecha Sonic does operate Eggman's Mech at the same speed as well). Outside of the Mechs, they react to Sonic's speed, who dodges their lasers.

giphy.gif


I apologize Shake, but I am becoming serious about debating this. "Is ridiculous", "repeated gimmick" are opinions, not debunks.
 
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ElixirBlue said:
Also, wouldn't being called "The Fastest Thing Alive" all the way back in Sonic 1 by the Encyclopedia with advance knowledge on the series' history (which now includes Forces knowing Sonic passively gets faster) neg Shadow's speed scaling to Sonic?
Click to expand...
Why the **** would it neg Shadow's blatant scaling? Sonic IS faster than Shadow, that doesn't mean he doesn't scale, however your Eggman scaling requires him to be faster than Sonic
 
Ian very clearly meant that Sonic was the fastest thing alive back in Sonic 1 when he wrotte that entry, denying that to claim he is talking about the future (which he would have noted so if it was the case) is pure cope
 
Theuser789 said:
Why the **** would it neg Shadow's blatant scaling? Sonic IS faster than Shadow, that doesn't mean he doesn't scale, however your Eggman scaling requires him to be faster than Sonic
Click to expand...
Ok, could you point to where I claim Eggman is required to be faster than Sonic? I never said that as an argument, so I'm confused on why you've kept repeating it. Maybe I didn't word myself right on something?
 
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Theuser789 said:
Ian very clearly meant
Click to expand...
User can read minds now (Is friendly joke). Question for you. What are the other entires in the Encyclopedia for other games that introduce the character of Sonic? Reading through the Encyclopedia (Thanks Meph), it appears he only did so only once. Its the only time Ian summarize a character in the title they debut in.
 
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Eggman scales in combat speed and Sonic is the fastest thing alive due to his travel speed being that high while Eggman’s isn’t. Problem solved.
 
Greenshifter said:
My question is do short burst sprints qualify for travel speed or combat speed?
Click to expand...
Answer is combat. Since we'd need more information to infer he can sustain it over much, much longer distances. He really relies on tech for such travel purposes.
 
Well seems pretty obvious to me then. Like Eggman scaling to Sonic in combat and reaction speed seems like a no-brainer considering he’s capable of fighting him in like at least half the games he’s in. Or heck fighting alongside Sonic when the situation calls for it.
 
I agree with the upgrade and with Eggman's stamina being pretty low. It's not like he has any impressive physical stamina feat anyway.
 
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