A skeleton sorcerer fights a squid sorcerer

[Yobo_Blue]

Well, it's said to be high level. In verse, Demiurge, who's mind manip is considered to be weak enough to be blocked by minor items, can control large groups of people. I think it worked on a large portion of Lizardmen, but I'll have to check again

I was more talking about Shalltear for the resistance

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright. I only ask because by this time the MF has a rather large force of mind-controlled slaves and all that.

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay, scaling from Demiurge's "Suggestion" ability (See the D&D ability, you'll see why) is not worth even a penny compared to the Mind Flayers, considering a regular human, the Bloody Emperor, was able to resist him.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That wasn't due to his resistance, that was a item, and Demiurge's suggestion is considered low tier, while Ainz's resistance is high tier.

 

[Axl233]

Im mean if my Orc barbarian with 5 intelligence can resist a mind blast if he rolls high enough why cant Ainz do the same?

 

[Udlmaster]

Im mean if my Orc barbarian with 5 intelligence can resist a mind blast if he rolls high enough why cant Ainz do the same?

Actually, a Barbarian can't succeed a Will saving throw against a 9th tier spell.

If you know how a DC saving throw goes, it goes, 10+spell level+intellect modifier.

You need an intellect of 19 to cast 9th tier spells, so let's assume it's the minimum, so +4.

So, 10+9+4 So DC 24. The Barbarian has a Will save modifier of -3. Even if he rolled a Nat 20, due to the -3, he'd always fail. So no. He can't.

 

[Akreious]

Okay, scaling from Demiurge's "Suggestion" ability (See the D&D ability, you'll see why) is not worth even a penny compared to the Mind Flayers, considering a regular human, the Bloody Emperor, was able to resist him.

This is fundamentally wrong. The Emperor was actually not only intellectually powerful (Being a great schemer, although too paranoid to see things properly), and even if we use D&D rules, he'd be fairly high up there in intelligence+willpower PLUS he utilizes an item called The Medallion of Mental Protectio which prevents mind hax up to at least Level 40 as long as the user stays focused, and since the Emperor at the time was staring at a flucking Frog Demon telling his men/protectors to bow, that's some strong willpower and focus. I counted at least 9 people affected in the Throne Room meeting with no difficulty, likely far more due to them being off-screen and a lot more hourses around the carriage in the scenes prior; which makes sense since the ability seems to operate on the range of how far someone can hear his voice; as his voice is the thing doing the mind haxing. Number of people affected is not a factor for this ability.

Ainz is an undead, with Mind Hax resistance considered to be "Immunity". As in, unless the ability explicitly bypasses immunities, you are flat out never going to affect him even with the strongest of 10th tier spells. The Emperor's medallion ain't got crap on an Undead's resistance.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just gonna say a Barbarian absolutely can succeed a save versus high level spells. Aside from magic items, there are feats and stat raises that allow them to do this pretty easily.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also a lot of this discussion is game mechanics being assumed to be real

 

[Udlmaster]

Words

Stopped to at least level 40 mind hax.

Ezzy clap. Well played, 40th level mind hax, too bad Demiurge is level 100. It just goes to prove that Demiurge's Mind hax are very weak as even the wiki you cited said this:

"With this, the mental barrier is enough to ward off Demiurge's mind control so it can resist any mental attack that is at least up to level 40."

So Demiurge's mindhax are only level 40, so don't bring it up as an example for "muh resisted mindhax" because level 40s are fodder in the verse.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

what

levels literally don't matter here

non-equatable

 

[Udlmaster]

That's basically what I'm saying.

 

[Belyompusct]

Also, how good is Ainz' Mind Manip resistance btw?

Pretty good, considering only reality altering artifacts which are lore-wise essences of entire planes of existence can lolnope Ainz's mind protection.

Time Hax seem like they don't work well on comparable beings, see Shalltear Fight and how he didn't use it once in that fight.

Nope, she simply has countermeasure item against time-based abililities and Ainz knew all of her data before starting the battle, thats all.

Since Ainz has no idea what a Mind Flayer is, he'll most likely not start out with Time hax.

In YGGDRASIL there were many grotesque looking heteromorphic races, Mind Flayer's facade could remind Ainz about Tabula Smaragdina, who is stronger than Ainz in terms of destructive capabilities. There's no reason on Ainz's side to not treat him seriously.

Mind Flayer gets theirs, Ainz is stunned and MF kills them

Ainz is resistant to large portion of status effects in his verse, including movement restrictions.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Pretty good, considering only reality altering artifacts which is lore-wise essences of entire planes of existence can lolnope Ainz's mind protection.

You mean like the Wish spell?

>Nope, she simply has countermeasure item against time-based abililities and Ainz knew all of her data, thats all.

Citation needed.

>In YGGDRASIL there were many grotesque looking heteromorphic races, Mind Flayer's facade could remind Ainz about Tabula Smaragdina, who is stronger than Ainz in terms of destructive capabilities. There's no reason on Ainz's side to not treat him seriously.

Literally only due to their class build not by their race.

>Ainz is resistant to large portion of status effects in his verse, including movement restrictions.

Citation needed for the movement restrictions. His rings give him "attacks designed to impede their freedom of movement." but that's incredibly vague and most likely isn't applicable in a vsdebate anyway as it borders on NLF.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

The wish spell is causality manipulation, which neither have

 

[Udlmaster]

The wish spell is causality manipulation, which neither have

Reality Warping, Time Manipulation and Causality Manipulation.

Also, Sorcerers do have access to the Wish spell.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

At high enough level, yes. But I don't think any mind flayers have it.

 

[Belyompusct]

>You mean like the Wish spell?

World Items. It's the highest class of items, which effects if took place can be undone even by Wish (Wish Upon a Star) spell.

 

[Udlmaster]

At high enough level, yes. But I don't think any mind flayers have it.

Not very well known, as a CR 8+ Monster, they could have access to the Wish Spell.

 

[Udlmaster]

>You mean like the Wish spell?
World Items. It's the highest class of items, which effects if took place can be undone even by Wish (Wish Upon a Star) spell.

Wish Upon a Star is not the same as the Wish spell. Do not compare them, they are EXTREMELY different.

Casuality, Time and Reality Warping is the Wish spell on up to a Multiversal level, but more commonly in a Universal level, so, no, he cannot resist a Higher-D spell.

Yes, Wish upon a Star is based on it, but that's like saying The Effal tower in Vegas is as tall as the real Eiffal tower in France because it's based on it.

 

[Moritzva]

I do not believe or remember it specifically stated that Shalltear had anti-time equipment, but considering how Ainz clearly stated he knew Shalltear's entire build (Episode 13 for anime, in light novel too iirc) and fought specifically around her and had previously stated that time countermeasures were important in the fight against Gazef, it makes sense that Ainz had a reason for not doing so.

Now, against Gazef, even the episode itself is named Player vs Player, since Ainz respected him enough to take him seriously like a player would, even stating that time countermeasures are important in PvP combat. This proves that if he believes his opponent does not have time resistance, he'll likely use it.

This is mostly speculation, but so is a lot of this fight. The Mind Flayer would likely use a mind attack first, which would fail due to mental immunity. Ainz would likely use any of his hax spells first, including Grasp Heart and Time Stop. Now, some info for Mind Flayer's resistances to these measures would be important, but given that the staff of Ainz Ooal Gown boosts Ainz's racial abilities, which can be found on the Overlord wiki or by watching the show, which would likely contribute to his mind resistance and various other abilities, as well as boosting his Aura of Despair (It's stated the staff of Ainz Ooal Gown can boost Aura of Despair until it effects level 100 NPCs, and that's just an example).

Over all, while it has the chance to go either way, I believe Ainz wins because he has better resistances and more versatility and items for such.

Edit: Overlord wiki defines his mind immunity as a basic undead trait, so the Staff would boost it in this fight. As there are no restrictions, I'd say he has it.

 

[Belyompusct]

How high are the chances for Mind Flayers to use the Wish spell simply to undo Ainz mind resistance, before the later in-character timestops and instakillls then calls it a day?

 

[Udlmaster]

They can resist Time Hax (Time Manip), Death Manipulation and Instant-Death hax, for example the spell "Heart Stop" is incredibly similar to "Grasp Heart". A Mind Flayer can resist it.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

We explained why the time manipulation is going to hit tho

 

[Udlmaster]

How high are the chances for Mind Flayers to use the Wish spell simply to undo Ainz mind resistance, before the later in-character timestops and instakillls then calls it a day?

He could simply Wish Ainz out of existence.

How in character is it? Unknown, because Mind Flayers are determined by Lumi. Their behavour is commonly to go for a incap, but since Ainz is obviously an Undead, and Undead in D&D are immune to Mind Manip as well, they would go for the Kill, most of all because they'd see him as a Lich, which is very very powerful in the verse.

 

[Moritzva]

I don't know extensively about Mind Flayers, but given Ainz's abilities, first, the Mindflayer would need to try a mental attack to know Ainz has mental resistance, which gives Ainz a free turn to do whatnot. Now, what are the specifics behind their Time Hax? Being able to cast Time Stop does not protect you from a Time Stop unless prepared as a counterspell.

As well, having a death spell, unless prepared as a counterspell, won't protect yourself from a death spell, so I'd like specifics on those abilities.

 

[Udlmaster]

Words

No, they wouldn't go for Mind attacks, he's obviously undead and Undead in D&D are immune to Mental attacks. So, no, they wouldn't go for the Mind Hax at all. They normally go for an incap but go for the kill with Constructs, Undead and Outsiders.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, the Mind Flayer has the speed advantage with High Hypersonic Reactions, so he'd react first/go for before Ainz would.

 

[Belyompusct]

Ainz' has self-ressurection ring, btw.

 

[Moritzva]

Right, so how exactly does Mind Flayer win? I believe it comes down to if Wish can actually do such or not- Wish isn't unlimited in the game, as a DM can keep things in line. Except we don't have a DM here.

So the matter is, can Mind Flayer do it? If not, I give this to Ainz for more likely to kill faster.

 

[Moritzva]

The ring's another thing. The Mindflayer would have to specifically wish for something that not only destroys Ainz, but prevents him from ever being brought back. Probable, but more specific.

Yes, Mindflayer goes first. But can he win before Ainz uses a hax on him, as I've not seen evidence that their own Time Stop nor Death Spells serve as actual countermeasures against Ainz.

 

[Udlmaster]

"I Wish this Lich out of existence."

Boom, done.

Spell Resistance as well as their own base resistances that they have. Death Ward and spells like that make them immune to Death Manip and Instant-killing spells.

 

[Moritzva]

Death Ward does need to be cast first, which either they do on the first turn or they lose.

As well, the Mind Flayer is not known to start with a Wish spell, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Moritzva]

Actually, I don't see Wish or even a mention of it on the profile, alongside none of the abilities it offers. If I missed something, please point it out, but I don't even see a single 9th level spell noted in it's profile. So, even if it did happen, there's reason not to believe it would start with such.

 

[Udlmaster]

It starts with something that can kill. Which can be anything, as well as being Supergenius and being vastly smarter than Ainz as well and being connected to the Elder Brain, a CR 25 being.

And which then comes down to either Time stop for Ainz or Wish for Mind Flayer, so it comes to an inconclusive.

 

[Udlmaster]

There's a lot of thing missing from the Profiles, that's why the entire Verse is under revision.

 

[Moritzva]

Well, Ainz has a bit more hax than the Mindflayer. Mindflayer has to start with Wish for a specific wish that negates the ring of resurrection. Genius or not, you can't know what you don't know. The Mind Flayer wouldn't be able to know Ainz's strength or resistances, so there is reason to believe the Mind Flayer would not risk a 33% chance of losing Wish forever and exhaustion when another method could theoretically do the trick.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Is an Obvious Lich

>Is obviously Undead

>In D&D Undead are immune to Mind Hax

>Mind Flayers are Eusocial (In nature and behavour) and don't care if they sacrifice themselves as long as the Elder Brain is protected.

If the Mind Flayer thinks a Lich is going to attack, then it'd use a Wish to erase the Liches existence so it doesn't come back. So yes, it would go for the Wish and Erase.

 

[Moritzva]

Right, but first, rework or not it's not on the profile.

Second, with rework in mind, there's reason to debate the Mind Flayer starting with another spell. Sunburst is plenty good against undead, and if Mind Flayer assumes they'll just revive to their soul hidey place, which would still count as a victory for the Mind Flayer.

 

[Udlmaster]

They would also make sure the Lich does not come back again, a Lich would know about the location of the Nest and therefore the Mind Flayer would make sure the Lich does not come back and a Mind Flayer would know that a Lich wouldn't go down in one go with Sunburst.