Ainz Ooal Gown vs Strahd von Zarovich

[Apeironaxim]

I may just change my vote to incon due to some info being clarified

It does seem like there are a good number of uncertain factors in this fight

 

[Saga89]

Strahd has a way to protect himself against any wish used to gain information about him, even indirectly. RAW: mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject's mind or to gain informatio about it.

> Undeath to Death
That's a bit different, don'tcha think? It specifically targets that. It isn't the same as a death spell in a verse where undead aren't typically immune to that sort of thing.

It still is a necromancy spell.

The definition of the D&D necromancy school in 3.5 is: Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force.

The definition of Death Manipulation of this wiki reads pretty much identical: The power to manipulate and induce death [...] Death manipulation is often associated with necromancy and has a wealth of deeper potential uses and utility.

Possibly, instead of death induced by negative energy, undead to dead may be "death" caused by subtracting negative energy.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

One of Ainz's classes is a necromancer, just saying.

Although in Overlord Negative Energy heals/fuels the undead, IDK about Ainz removing it from other undead.

 

[Moritzva]

Heck. What has been agreed upon so far?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, it's necromancy, but it is a very specific ability that targets undead. It is literally the only thing to do so.

It's a bit of a special case, is all. It isn't the same as flat-out Death Manip.

 

[Saga89]

It's not the only necromancy deleterious to undead . If you were still to argue undead to dead is another case entirely (but hey, it's still the power of death, unlife, and the life force), nothing states whether undead to dead manipulates positive or negative energy. In the first case, than it's not unique (see the examples above) and so it's not ruled out as a singular exception. In the second, 4th and 5th editions necrotic energy can damage undead, and if necrotic energy can be equalled to the negative energy of previous editions this also supports you can Death Manip undead with certain spell formula. Probably D&D spells are limited only by this, their formula, as most of them need to "say something" (Verbal Components, reading spells from scrolls, and such) but if this "something" the caster is trying to say isn't applicable to the case, than the spell just fail.

Also, there are feats that grants Mind Manipulation against undead , both mindless and intelligent.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Bump.

Do we have a vote count?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

3 for Strahd (Saga, DragonEmperor, Myself)

1 for Incon (Apeir)

TGoaLiD is up in the air depending on whether we take the fan translation, if it is conceptual then yeet, but the official translation yada yada yada.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

We already determined TGoaLiD isn't conceptual in another thread, though.

 

[Moritzva]

In that case I'll have to vote Strahd. More cases than not, soul hax gg.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ah, right then

Didn't know that

my b

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Strahd - 4 (Saga, DragonEmperor, Bambu, Pixel)

Incon - 1 (Apiero)

 

[Antoniofer]

I mean, we already threat Undeads as being immune to Death Manipulation, and the reason why undeads and construct are immune to that in DnD is cuz they are already dead or aren't alive, so their immunity is nothing special compared to the conventional undead. If Ainz can bring death to undead and construct then its magic its already special by itself.

Also again, Ainz can resist to magic too, and from what I heard, he could easily have INT 24 (+7) compared to Strahd 20 (+5), although you can ignore those stats if you want; that he could resist then he can resist.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It actually is. As said above there are things that do and do not affect them through death. Typical death manip isn't it.

Ainz' stats in D&D aren't related. Also Intelligence isn't what is used to resist magic. It's a special quality, Spell Resistance. Plus a fair amount of spells ignore it entirely.

 

[Antoniofer]

What I meaning to resistance is the DC, few of Strahd spells sudmit its target to these, and naturally, can be resisted (same with Ainz spells, that as a wizard/sorcerer, use INT; or perhaps CHA, not sure).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The wizard's DC is based on INT, sorcerer's is based on CHA. The resistance DC, the opposing one, is based on WIS, though.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

3 more, it seems...?

 

[Schnee_One]

Nope, 2.

Strahd FRA

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Ok, so I sorta lost track of the arguements. Could I get as brief an explanation as possible?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Basically:

Ainz has a huge AP advantage, having 10x what Strahd upscales a bit from. He can paste him in a single attack. However, since TGoaLiD isn't conceptual, Strahd can resist essentially any hax Ainz throws at him. So Ainz win-con is just annihilating with AP.

That said, Strahd's Regenerationn dependent on his shielded casket makes it nigh-impossible for Ainz to permakill, since upon death Strahd transforms into vapor and regenerates in an hour. Ainz could in theory discover this room but it is hidden away somewhere in a country sized area.

Furthermore, Strahd has his own win-conditions of soul hax via Soul Anchor (which binds a target within an area with defined borders- this could be a building, a valley, etc, and they just... can't leave). He can also lessen enemy resistance to mindhax and win that way.

It was deemed that Strahd's win conditions in this war of attrition are more likely than Ainz discovering a hidden room in a country sized area (Barovia).

 

[Schnee_One]

I almost want to say stomp due to how unlikely that is

But what do I know....

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean

It isn't like Ainz has any issue dispatching Strahd with a single attack or surviving for a very long time

it is possible he stumbles on the general area before Strahd soulhaxes

just unlikely.

 

[Schnee_One]

That's more likely then what I interpreted

Anyway, I'm done

YEET

 

[Moritzva]

This very finely walks the line between stompish and decisive.

I love how I thought Ainz was going to easily win then it was just

"...oh"

"...oh"

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be a BFR victory for Ainz then?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Nooot exactly. Strahd can get back before time-limit.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

So assuming Strahd comes back to the scene of his death everytime Ainz would, in theory, have a much easier time finding Strahd's hiding place, right? What are the exact requirements for Soul Bind and how likely is he to use it and could Ainz break it with his own magic?

Sorry if these have already been answered, but the threads very long now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Soul Bind requires a moment or two to prepare but after that it's just a touch attack. He's relatively likely to use it. Basically, his character is denoted as the following methods:

1. Poke defenses with summons/ambushes. Ainz passes this with flying colors.

2. Attempt to mindhax if the target is susceptible to mindhax (from Strahd's point of view, this would be a physical fighter-type).

3. Other hax. While it can be hard to say what he uses due to sheer number of hax, it is in Strahd's character to trap others here with him- which can be achieved via Close the Borders or Soul Bind. In this case Soul Bind is more likely.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Sucks that the evidence for Ainz getting Resistance to Soul Manip wasn't deemed good enough

Oh well, maybe one day...

 

[Moritzva]

Wait, he needs to touch Ainz for Soul Hax, or set up traps? Because I believe Ainz has at least one spell that lets him get around stuff like that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, to address Ainz discovering Strahd's room via following the path he comes from: it's not very likely, you must admit, aside from giving Ainz a cardinal direction where Strahd is coming from. Strahd's coffin is in a room hidden away through magical means that IIRC only he really has access to.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wait, he needs to touch Ainz for Soul Hax, or set up traps? Because I believe Ainz has at least one spell that lets him get around stuff like that.

Touch. Just a touch.

 

[Apeironaxim]

I'm guessing Strahd would be able to get the drop on Ainz twice then?

 

[Moritzva]

Well, getting close enough to touch Ainz is insanely unlikely since Ainz can literally just smite him with any spell in existence.

So, what kind of magical spell is needed for Ainz to find the hidden coffin? Seeing that there's basically no way Strahd can ever get close enough to touch Ainz.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That's not exactly true, Pixel. Spectral Hand counters. He in-character uses the spell to deliver touch-attacks (its a small floating ghostly hand that does nothing other than deliver touch attacks)

Ignoring the fact that I'm fairly sure Strahd could touch Ainz to begin with, of course.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Would Ainz not be extremely wary after dying one time?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Would Ainz not be extremely wary after dying one time?

Strahd isn't killing him. I'm fairly sure he won't even bother since in his world liches just don't die until you find their phylacteries and destroy them- it would be extremely stupid to waste efforts before neutralizing him.

Strahd is incapping via Sealing. Soul Anchor.

 

[Antoniofer]

Question: From what edition Strahd does have Soul Bind? in EtCR do not have that spell (not prepared). Also, that spells involve a gems and only works on beings that died recently (60 s in Strahd case I believe).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Soul Anchor. Not Soul Bind. That misconception was cleared up above, and it is 2e. The link is up above for a screenshot of its exact effects- and... no? It can affect any creature.

TO BE CLEAR:

Soul Bind is a spell used to capture the soul of a fallen creature to ensure resurrection is impossible.

Soul Anchor is a spell that binds a creature to an area with a set location, making them unable to leave that area.

 

[Moritzva]

That's not exactly true, Pixel. Spectral Hand counters. He in-character uses the spell to deliver touch-attacks (its a small floating ghostly hand that does nothing other than deliver touch attacks)
Ignoring the fact that I'm fairly sure Strahd could touch Ainz to begin with, of course.

How long is Spectral Hand? Because I still doubt that'll help when literally anything Strahd does is responded to with... well, a spell.

Not to mention, once Strahd returns for the first time, Ainz will know what's up. He'll use Pantheon and various Create Undead spells along with buffs to prep for Strahd coming. I doubt Strahd would be able to get close enough to touch Ainz once he has all his buffs on him and controls a large, mobile army of high-level Undead and angels. Every time Strahd comes, Ainz and his army obliterates him before he can do anything.

How could Strahd get past that?