Ainz vs Helmed Horror(s?), can we make a fair fight happen?

[Carfusso]

IMPORTANT UPDATE/EDIT (I have "censored" the outdated info)
1) The Horror's Magic Resistance lets it take REDUCED dmg from "blasting" spells (it still has elemental resistances on top of that, and it's still functionally immune to any and all of Ainz's hax)
2) Same goes for "object creation" spells like Wall of Skeleton and Thousand Bone Lance: they work but may deal reduced dmg.
3) The Horror's sword is now enchanted with speed.
4) I might add an extra Horror or 2 depending on what you think, or just keep that as a round 2

Yes, we're back at this (I'm trying to find a fair match for Ainz that doesn't hinge on either party 1-shotting the other)
This one runs on 5 assumptions in order to be fair:
1)I can use the "possibly" rating as the Horror's AP/dura
2)The ability the horror has in 5e to choose 3 spells to be immune to is a thing here as well (may not be needed depending on HOW bullshit-ridiculous D&D resistances truly are, let me know)
3)Hopefully the horror doesn't just get kited to death (can I use 2/3 Horrors and still have this added?)
4)I know D&D resistances are bullshit-ridiculous but (from my experience playing D&D) I assume they're not the "I resist your damage so hard I might as well be immune" kind of bullshit-ridiculous. I assume the "I'm practically immune to your magic" part only applies to hax, while damage only gets reduced by half (or more/less, Idk how you treat that but I assume it's not a problem)
5)I got the AP/dura numbers right lol
SO
(the pictures are cards because I found it funny for some stupid reason that I don't even know, my sense of humor has been broken for years now, leave me be)

Helmed Horror (seems to scale to around 500 tons in the possibly 8-A rating)

Ainz Ooal Gown (seems to scale to around 1.4 kilotons): 4 votes for now


Starting distance is 10 meters, everything else is SBA.
Battle Horror is used.
The Horror was made (and infused) with knowledge of Ainz's standard tactics, TGoALiD and most used spells so one of the "chosen resistances" is Time Stop. (if needed, see assumptions 2 and 4)
Horror sword is enchanted with either speed of fire depending on what would make the fight more fair. (I'd say fire)
Ainz has his standard equipment.
Speed has to be equalized I'm afraid.
Just like last time there's very little that I would not be willing to change in order to make the fight more fair. (including adding 1/2 horrors if the match can still be added)

 

[Carfusso]

The time has come, the bumping shall commence

 

[Carfusso]

Bumping up...back on the streets, did my bump, took my chancees

 

[Carfusso]

What is a bump? A miserable pile of secrets (I apologize in advance for using a quote while knowing nothing about it)

 

[DaReaperMan]

Horror resists Everything Ainz can do just by normal DnD resistances, probably with the layer he needs for Time Stop as well, and the only way Ainz can fight it is with Perfect Warrior, so you might want to give Ainz some prep in order to grab some decent equipment to do the job, like, enough for him to run into the treasury and grab some shit, so probably like an hour of prep with no prior knowledge.

You should remove the infusion onto the Horror for prior knowledge, that makes it a bit unfair due to the fact it'll just counter Ainz's melee.

And I think you should probably keep fire, though Ainz has counter measures for not getting ****** by fire.

Otherwise good match and I'll need to know more about the Horror so I can properly make arguments.

 

[Carfusso]

Horror resists Everything Ainz can do just by normal DnD resistances, probably with the layer he needs for Time Stop as well, and the only way Ainz can fight it is with Perfect Warrior, so you might want to give Ainz some prep in order to grab some decent equipment to do the job, like, enough for him to run into the treasury and grab some shit, so probably like an hour of prep with no prior knowledge.

You should remove the infusion onto the Horror for prior knowledge, that makes it a bit unfair due to the fact it'll just counter Ainz's melee.

And I think you should probably keep fire, though Ainz has counter measures for not getting ****** by fire.

Otherwise good match and I'll need to know more about the Horror so I can properly make arguments.

I know the horror resists Ainz's hax (and if you're right, this includes time stop) but are you sure damage just gets nullified/trivialized? Usually in D&D resistance and immunity are treated differently, expecially when it comes to damage and Ainz has around a 3 times AP advantage so he should still be able to damage the Horror with spells unless "resistance to magic" is treated like immunity here.
That being said summons are a thing as well so he may not need to use Perfect Warrior even if he can't blast the Horror. (again, I'm still willing to give prep time to grab shit from the treasury if needed)
I gave knowledge of TGoALiD because it's the only hax that I wasn't 100% sure was resisted (source: a previous thread, Ainz vs the red dragon, a match that was deemed a stomp with FAR more reasoning than needed since the dragon was like 1000 times stronger lol)
Same goes for the fire sword, it's there to try to bridge a pretty significant AP gap (though it's not like fire 1-shots him) since Ainz's countermeasures would involve prep.
We really need some D&D people to know the specifics it seems.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I know the horror resists Ainz's hax (and if you're right, this includes time stop) but are you sure damage just gets nullified/trivialized? Usually in D&D resistance and immunity are treated differently, expecially when it comes to damage and Ainz has around a 3 times AP advantage so he should still be able to damage the Horror with spells unless "resistance to magic" is treated like immunity here.
That being said summons are a thing as well so he may not need to use Perfect Warrior even if he can't blast the Horror. (again, I'm still willing to give prep time to grab shit from the treasury if needed)
I gave knowledge of TGoALiD because it's the only hax that I wasn't 100% sure was resisted (source: a previous thread, Ainz vs the red dragon, a match that was deemed a stomp with FAR more reasoning than needed since the dragon was like 1000 times stronger lol)
Same goes for the fire sword, it's there to try to bridge a pretty significant AP gap (though it's not like fire 1-shots him) since Ainz's countermeasures would involve prep.
We really need some D&D people to know the specifics it seems.

Yeah a resistance is basically treated as a form of immunity here I believe so

You do realize 99% of Ainz's summons are dogshit for this fight right? He has like three dozen 9-As and like 4 Low 7-Cs, and he likes to use the 9-As a lot more than the Low 7-Cs.

The Red Dragon probably resists TGoALiD, as I specified there, plus Ainz takes like 10 years to use the spell in the first place.

Ainz's literal normal attire is to counteract his weakness to fire, you do realize this right? You do realize he has countermeasures for shit on-hand at all times right?

 

[Carfusso]

Yeah a resistance is basically treated as a form of immunity here I believe so

You do realize 99% of Ainz's summons are dogshit for this fight right? He has like three dozen 9-As and like 4 Low 7-Cs, and he likes to use the 9-As a lot more than the Low 7-Cs.

The Red Dragon probably resists TGoALiD, as I specified there, plus Ainz takes like 10 years to use the spell in the first place.

Ainz's literal normal attire is to counteract his weakness to fire, you do realize this right? You do realize he has countermeasures for shit on-hand at all times right?

I can understand resistance to hax as it is mostly "either resist and you're fine or don't and get shit on" but are you sure it applies to damage as well?

Yes the fodder summons are useless (somewhat debatable, he used them in a really cool way in the bonus volume by summoning a horde of them and then letting them die to his Iä Shub-Niggurath, something that would work here since the horror lacks the AoE to kill a significant amount of them quickly enough, expecially while dealing with the low 7-C ones) but he also has a decent number of stronger ones as well, that are all around 3 times stronger than the Horror (well maybe slightly less as they all downscale from him but still... it's a pretty decent advantage) and has shit like the (double or triple if he wants) Obsidian Sword that can work as a "pseudo summon" so I still don't think he needs Perfect Warrior to win. (it is a decent option though)

Well my point was that it was never confirmed and that it didn't really matter since the dragon was around 1000 times stronger so there's no universe in which Ainz lives more than a second there (still,this was meant to be kind of an irrelevant sidenote, expecially if the horror resists TGoALiD as well)

Honestly I did not remember the exact resistances he chose to have with his normal combat gear (could have been resistance to holy for all I remember, if it's fire then fine), I just know that he CAN resist fire if he wants to but his "countermeasures for shit" usually involve him changing gear, something he's only done out of combat (exept for the sticks he used in the Shalltear fight). Given what you said though I believe the horror might need a different power on the sword (maybe speed to not get kited, mabe something else Idk)

 

[DaReaperMan]

I can understand resistance to hax as it is mostly "either resist and you're fine or don't and get shit on" but are you sure it applies to damage as well?

Yes the fodder summons are useless (somewhat debatable, he used them in a really cool way in the bonus volume by summoning a horde of them and then letting them die to his Iä Shub-Niggurath, something that would work here since the horror lacks the AoE to kill a significant amount of them quickly enough, expecially while dealing with the low 7-C ones) but he also has a decent number of stronger ones as well, that are all around 3 times stronger than the Horror (well maybe slightly less as they all downscale from him but still... it's a pretty decent advantage) and has shit like the (double or triple if he wants) Obsidian Sword that can work as a "pseudo summon" so I still don't think he needs Perfect Warrior to win. (it is a decent option though)

Well my point was that it was never confirmed and that it didn't really matter since the dragon was around 1000 times stronger so there's no universe in which Ainz lives more than a second there (still,this was meant to be kind of an irrelevant sidenote, expecially if the horror resists TGoALiD as well)

Honestly I did not remember the exact resistances he chose to have with his normal combat gear (could have been resistance to holy for all I remember, if it's fire then fine), I just know that he CAN resist fire if he wants to but his "countermeasures for shit" usually involve him changing gear, something he's only done out of combat (exept for the sticks he used in the Shalltear fight). Given what you said though I believe the horror might need a different power on the sword (maybe speed to not get kited, mabe something else Idk)

I think so

You do realize how long Shub takes to cast yeah? Takes like 10 years. Also he doesn't have a bunch of high-tier summons. He's got 4 that are WAY weaker than him, or two that are just quite weaker than him. That's it. That's all he can do. And considering the only one that's useful is Ruinous Night due to resistances and lack of knowledge. So chances are he wastes most of those summons on shit that plain doesn't work.

It was never confirmed because I never bothered to check if the dnD resistances included resistance negation.

The robes he brought to the Shalltear fight were holy, his main robes are fire. And he can apsolutely Change weapons and rings on the fly, he can just do it a lot faster with the sticks. He has Equipment in his inventory and he can access it at any time. He just has to reach in, he literally pulled the swords of darkness dagger thing out to talk to Clementine before he killed her. And if Ainz decides to Kite the horror, which is likely, he can literally teleport to orbit or some shit. He has Greater Teleportation. It's got that range

 

[Carfusso]

I think so

You do realize how long Shub takes to cast yeah? Takes like 10 years. Also he doesn't have a bunch of high-tier summons. He's got 4 that are WAY weaker than him, or two that are just quite weaker than him. That's it. That's all he can do. And considering the only one that's useful is Ruinous Night due to resistances and lack of knowledge. So chances are he wastes most of those summons on shit that plain doesn't work.

It was never confirmed because I never bothered to check if the dnD resistances included resistance negation.

The robes he brought to the Shalltear fight were holy, his main robes are fire. And he can apsolutely Change weapons and rings on the fly, he can just do it a lot faster with the sticks. He has Equipment in his inventory and he can access it at any time. He just has to reach in, he literally pulled the swords of darkness dagger thing out to talk to Clementine before he killed her. And if Ainz decides to Kite the horror, which is likely, he can literally teleport to orbit or some shit. He has Greater Teleportation. It's got that range

I think it's BS but I'll play along until further info is given, might make the match more interesting.

Yea I do, however Ainz can decide to shorten it with his cash shop item sticks, something that he hesitates to use yes, but if this thing can't be hurt by any of his magic he WILL use them 100%, and now the super-tier spell is instant (hell...he may even decide to use Pantheon instead of Shub for MORE shit to throw at the horror).
His higher tier summons are not very numerous but they are listed as low 7-C if I'm not mistaken so even 1 (e.g. Doom Lord) is enough to at least keep the horror busy while dealing some dmg (and if he sees the horror just not giving a shit about his magic he's extremely unlikely to summon the spellcasting skull, and if he is stupid enough to summon it, it's DEFINITELY only happening once) and even the weaker ones (e.g. Death Knight) may not be able to hurt the Horror but they can buy time (to either buff himself, change gear, summon more shit etc...) with their "I'm not getting 1-shot lol" skill and Armageddon Evil has SOME merit by virtue of just being A LOT of summons (though admittedly only to gain a minimal amount of time and/or as Shub fodder). On top of that there's the Obsidian Swords.

k, we'll asssume the Horror resists

Fair, thinking back at it he just never did because he was always ready for his opponent's stuff (so yea...speed seems to be the better option for the horror since Ainz will resist any other damage type eventually by changing gear...also...how does this work for our standards on resistance? Ainz RESISTS those dmg types yet he still gets hurt, just less hurt)

Also keep in mind, these are not arguments for either side winning, I'm just saying that I don't think Ainz needs Perfect Warrior to stand a chance

 

[DaReaperMan]

I think it's BS but I'll play along until further info is given, might make the match more interesting.

Yea I do, however Ainz can decide to shorten it with his cash shop item sticks, something that he hesitates to use yes, but if this thing can't be hurt by any of his magic he WILL use them 100%, and now the super-tier spell is instant (hell...he may even decide to use Pantheon instead of Shub for MORE shit to throw at the horror).
His higher tier summons are not very numerous but they are listed as low 7-C if I'm not mistaken so even 1 (e.g. Doom Lord) is enough to at least keep the horror busy while dealing some dmg (and if he sees the horror just not giving a shit about his magic he's extremely unlikely to summon the spellcasting skull, and if he is stupid enough to summon it, it's DEFINITELY only happening once) and even the weaker ones (e.g. Death Knight) may not be able to hurt the Horror but they can buy time (to either buff himself, change gear, summon more shit etc...) with their "I'm not getting 1-shot lol" skill and Armageddon Evil has SOME merit by virtue of just being A LOT of summons (though admittedly only to gain a minimal amount of time and/or as Shub fodder). On top of that there's the Obsidian Swords.

k, we'll asssume the Horror resists

Fair, thinking back at it he just never did because he was always ready for his opponent's stuff (so yea...speed seems to be the better option for the horror since Ainz will resist any other damage type eventually by changing gear...also...how does this work for our standards on resistance? Ainz RESISTS those dmg types yet he still gets hurt, just less hurt)

Also keep in mind, these are not arguments for either side winning, I'm just saying that I don't think Ainz needs Perfect Warrior to stand a chance

If they aren't even effected by his magic generally, yes, he's going to assume they're just immune to magic and as such not bother with super-tier spells, as they're magic, so while he might just decide to throw the Low 7-Cs at them, we don't know what the pale death does, two are useless here, and one just dies over time, in all cases they're not optimal for usage against the horror. And Ainz isn't just going to waste time throwing apsolute fodder at the wall until something sticks, seeing as, if the horror is any good at fighting in terms of skill in comparison to Ainz, the Low 7-C summons ain't gonna do too much, your putting so much weight on stuff Ainz Could do without realizing what his mindset is, and seeing magic not work, he's gonna go "oh shit". In case you forgot, Ainz is a magic Caster, if his magic literally doesn't work and summons don't really do much to stop the horror, Ainz isn't going to try and throw more shit at it, would it be optimal? Maybe. Would he do it instead of giving his balls a tug and just trying to go melee with Perfect Warrior? No, because at that point he wants to end the fight as fast as possible with as little loss of resources as possible. If he's expending a cash shop item that's not as little loss of resources as possible, that's in fact a crushing loss of resources cause he can't replace them.

There were a couple times he wasn't ready, for instance he got attacked by a dragon off-screen which he eventually nuked with spells after it showed resistance to his time shit, and as for the resistance arguments, mate, you'd have to talk to someone else, the baseline assumption is resisting something means your practically immune to it and lesser variants.

 

[Carfusso]

If they aren't even effected by his magic generally, yes, he's going to assume they're just immune to magic and as such not bother with super-tier spells, as they're magic, so while he might just decide to throw the Low 7-Cs at them, we don't know what the pale death does, two are useless here, and one just dies over time, in all cases they're not optimal for usage against the horror. And Ainz isn't just going to waste time throwing apsolute fodder at the wall until something sticks, seeing as, if the horror is any good at fighting in terms of skill in comparison to Ainz, the Low 7-C summons ain't gonna do too much, your putting so much weight on stuff Ainz Could do without realizing what his mindset is, and seeing magic not work, he's gonna go "oh shit". In case you forgot, Ainz is a magic Caster, if his magic literally doesn't work and summons don't really do much to stop the horror, Ainz isn't going to try and throw more shit at it, would it be optimal? Maybe. Would he do it instead of giving his balls a tug and just trying to go melee with Perfect Warrior? No, because at that point he wants to end the fight as fast as possible with as little loss of resources as possible. If he's expending a cash shop item that's not as little loss of resources as possible, that's in fact a crushing loss of resources cause he can't replace them.

There were a couple times he wasn't ready, for instance he got attacked by a dragon off-screen which he eventually nuked with spells after it showed resistance to his time shit, and as for the resistance arguments, mate, you'd have to talk to someone else, the baseline assumption is resisting something means your practically immune to it and lesser variants.

I disagree with the mindset part, Ainz might end up trying Perfect Warrior but not before being SURE he can't use any of his other tricks. Yes he hates wasting resources when it's not needed and he's a massive hoarder but you're acting like 1)he's confident he can beat a "combat specialist" with stats similar to his own in a straight up close combat confrontation and 2)he's not willing to use his resources in a fight with his life on the line (both things proven very wrong by the series).
If he ever goes Perfect Warrior (which he might eventually, I agree) it's after he tried everything and he's done all he can to chip down the Horror's resources (well...mostly HP in this case) like he did against Shalltear

He won't bother with super-tier spells like Fallen Down I agree on that but we know Pantheon is an in-charachter option for him (he used it out of combat sure but still, if he realizes that his damaging spells won't do shit he'll 100% at least consider it if nothing else sticks, hell...even if the angels were nothing but "I use sword and fly" they'd still be very helpful). As for the other summons sadly we don't know what some of them do but (after realizing his spells do no dmg) he WILL use the low 7-C ones...that's NOT a question and even just the Doom Lord (while it may lose hp over time keep in mind it can be resummoned) is still stronger than the Horror so it will likely leave a dent expecially in conjunction with Obsidian Swords and maybe some semi-fodder summons (so unless the Horror is made by having Ikki Kurogane do a fusion dance with the enirety of Kamen Rider and Warhammer Fantasy the skill part doesn't invalidate the effectiveness of the summons, at most it means the Horror won't get overwhelmed).
I'm not suggesting he will throw some absolute fodder at the wall but you seem to forget that he's an analitycal fighter that will likely formulate some amount of a plan thanks to the time he will get, such a plan MIGHT include summoning hordes of fodder that dies to a Hourglass-shortened Shub or it may be something else entirely.

Well it's never implied he changed his gear in any way in that fight (I think it was the Brightness Dragon Lord in the bonus volume) and the fight ended in a sort of draw (he ran away if i'm not mistaken). If anything that proves he will try EVERYTHING in his arsenal if the usual stuff doesn't work (including all of his strongest summons) to see what sticks.

Well who do you think could know this resistance stuff? (and again, it feels weird when talking about non dura-negging damage but I'm playing along for the sake of argument)

 

[DaReaperMan]

I disagree with the mindset part, Ainz might end up trying Perfect Warrior but not before being SURE he can't use any of his other tricks. Yes he hates wasting resources when it's not needed and he's a massive hoarder but you're acting like 1)he's confident he can beat a "combat specialist" with stats similar to his own in a straight up close combat confrontation and 2)he's not willing to use his resources in a fight with his life on the line (both things proven very wrong by the series).
If he ever goes Perfect Warrior (which he might eventually, I agree) it's after he tried everything and he's done all he can to chip down the Horror's resources (well...mostly HP in this case) like he did against Shalltear

He won't bother with super-tier spells like Fallen Down I agree on that but we know Pantheon is an in-charachter option for him (he used it out of combat sure but still, if he realizes that his damaging spells won't do shit he'll 100% at least consider it if nothing else sticks, hell...even if the angels were nothing but "I use sword and fly" they'd still be very helpful). As for the other summons sadly we don't know what some of them do but (after realizing his spells do no dmg) he WILL use the low 7-C ones...that's NOT a question and even just the Doom Lord (while it may lose hp over time keep in mind it can be resummoned) is still stronger than the Horror so it will likely leave a dent expecially in conjunction with Obsidian Swords and maybe some semi-fodder summons (so unless the Horror is made by having Ikki Kurogane do a fusion dance with the enirety of Kamen Rider and Warhammer Fantasy the skill part doesn't invalidate the effectiveness of the summons, at most it means the Horror won't get overwhelmed).
I'm not suggesting he will throw some absolute fodder at the wall but you seem to forget that he's an analitycal fighter that will likely formulate some amount of a plan thanks to the time he will get, such a plan MIGHT include summoning hordes of fodder that dies to a Hourglass-shortened Shub or it may be something else entirely.

Well it's never implied he changed his gear in any way in that fight (I think it was the Brightness Dragon Lord in the bonus volume) and the fight ended in a sort of draw (he ran away if i'm not mistaken). If anything that proves he will try EVERYTHING in his arsenal if the usual stuff doesn't work (including all of his strongest summons) to see what sticks.

Well who do you think could know this resistance stuff? (and again, it feels weird when talking about non dura-negging damage but I'm playing along for the sake of argument)

Why would if be needed, Ainz is fighting someone with around 3x less HP than him, unless info analysis is resisted it's getting used guaranteed, he'd know that the horror is likely weaker than him despite it being good. And yes, he'd be confident about fighting something like that if he had better gear, outside of Dark Warrior gear he doesn't keep any good shit on him such as Touch Me's armor. And mate, if by observing and such, if he thought the only way he could win was Perfect Warrior, he'd 100% do it, why would he throw more shit that's not working? do you believe Ainz wouldn't go "Ah, summons aren't working for shit" after the horror maybe shreds Ainz's summons? Sure, if it doesn't, Ainz may go for more, but if it does, Ainz is not going to waste resources on shit he knows doesn't work very well at all, sure, his life is on the line, but he's not going to do shut that he'd consider unoptimal. Plus we don't even know what the Pantheon summons do lol

Yeah, Pantheon is IC, but tell me, do you know what they do? I don't think so, and see my argument above for that being unoptimal, especially if they don't do much to drain resources at all, especially since it's not hard to outskill an Overlord character. They don't have a lot of skill feats. So if the hunter is outskilling the summons and barely taking damage, yeah.

Ah yes, tons of fodder... up to 32... yeah some things may need a couple revisions, regardless Ainz can't spam summons like your saying he can, he has four summons that can do anything except for tank hits, and those summons are ridiculously weaker than Ainz lol

Because he didn't exactly have time to change gear, also, he changed gear from Perfect Warrior to his robes automatically, so yes he can change main gear mid-fight now that I remember

Probably Mr._Bambu, who's also a DnD guy

 

[Carfusso]

(I'm formatting it like this to try to make it easier to understand since it's a bit fragmented)
Why would if be needed, Ainz is fighting someone with around 3x less HP than him, unless info analysis is resisted it's getting used guaranteed, he'd know that the horror is likely weaker than him despite it being good. And yes, he'd be confident about fighting something like that if he had better gear, outside of Dark Warrior gear he doesn't keep any good shit on him such as Touch Me's armor. And mate, if by observing and such, if he thought the only way he could win was Perfect Warrior, he'd 100% do it, why would he throw more shit that's not working? do you believe Ainz wouldn't go "Ah, summons aren't working for shit" after the horror maybe shreds Ainz's summons? Sure, if it doesn't, Ainz may go for more, but if it does, Ainz is not going to waste resources on shit he knows doesn't work very well at all, sure, his life is on the line, but he's not going to do shut that he'd consider unoptimal. Plus we don't even know what the Pantheon summons do lol

Life Essence will tell him the Horror's HP is lower than his own (I don't remember seeing info analisys resistance, could be wrong but we'll see) but Ainz will still assume that the Horror has a trump card of some kind (something Ainz always does, at least at first) so it's VERY unlikely he goes Perfect Warrior at any "early" point of the fight, even with weapons/armors from the treasury at hand.
Oh yea, I agree, if his conclusion after observing what the Horror can do was that his best path to win is Perfect Warrior he's 100% going to use it, but this is only happening after the fight has gone on for a while.
You keep saying that summons won't do shit/will get shredded and I can't really see any good reason why:
after realizing his magic doesn't work for damage he's 100% going to resort to the stronger summons and (since he is, after all, a being that was blessed with the gift of sentience) I'd assume he's only going to bring out the "beatsticks" ones like the Doom Lord (and, just to make the most unreasonably conservative assumption, let's say it's the only undead he has that can fit this role) which are all weaker but comparable to him, on top of spells like Obsidian Sword (doubled or tripled) so I fail to see how an undead stronger than the Horror backed up by 1/2/3 flying swords of comparable AP to (at least) the Doom Lord can be ineffective.

Yeah, Pantheon is IC, but tell me, do you know what they do? I don't think so, and see my argument above for that being unoptimal, especially if they don't do much to drain resources at all, especially since it's not hard to outskill an Overlord character. They don't have a lot of skill feats. So if the hunter is outskilling the summons and barely taking damage, yeah.

Once again even if the angels were just "I use sword and fly" (which I'd consider a reasonable but conservative assumption) they'd still be 6 beatsticks that are stronger than the Horror, regardeless though...fine, since we know nothing about them aside their LvL I won't consider Pantheon as a factor.
The skill bit is...interesting, I'd say you need some VERY good feats to prove you can easily "outskill and barely take damage" against multiple enemies that are comparable or stronger than you unless your opponents are COMPLETELY inept (which is not the case here) so, even assuming the Horror is a better fighter than Ainz or any of his summons, (which is likely) I wouldn't just go "lolskill" when you're at a numbers and AP disadvantage.

Ah yes, tons of fodder... up to 32... yeah some things may need a couple revisions, regardless Ainz can't spam summons like your saying he can, he has four summons that can do anything except for tank hits, and those summons are ridiculously weaker than Ainz lol

Where are you getting the 32 from? Because Armageddon Evil definitely isn't capped there. (though to be fair, as I already said, Armageddon Evil would probably only be useful as Shub fodder)
Also I assume the 4 summons you are talking about are the "summon high tier undead" ones (as I said, let's assume it's just the Doom Lord), the ones that downscale from Ainz but are not ridiculously weaker in any way, expecially when you factor in the fact that undead created by Ainz are quite a bit stronger than regular ones.

Because he didn't exactly have time to change gear, also, he changed gear from Perfect Warrior to his robes automatically, so yes he can change main gear mid-fight now that I remember

How do you know that he didn't when we did not see the fight? Couldn't it be that he didn't have time to do that because he was fighting? Still it's fine, he could probably gain enough time to change gear in this fight and it's not like it's a big deal anyway.

Probably Mr._Bambu, who's also a DnD guy

Do I ping him here, message him or something else?

 

[DaReaperMan]

(I'm formatting it like this to try to make it easier to understand since it's a bit fragmented)
Why would if be needed, Ainz is fighting someone with around 3x less HP than him, unless info analysis is resisted it's getting used guaranteed, he'd know that the horror is likely weaker than him despite it being good. And yes, he'd be confident about fighting something like that if he had better gear, outside of Dark Warrior gear he doesn't keep any good shit on him such as Touch Me's armor. And mate, if by observing and such, if he thought the only way he could win was Perfect Warrior, he'd 100% do it, why would he throw more shit that's not working? do you believe Ainz wouldn't go "Ah, summons aren't working for shit" after the horror maybe shreds Ainz's summons? Sure, if it doesn't, Ainz may go for more, but if it does, Ainz is not going to waste resources on shit he knows doesn't work very well at all, sure, his life is on the line, but he's not going to do shut that he'd consider unoptimal. Plus we don't even know what the Pantheon summons do lol

Life Essence will tell him the Horror's HP is lower than his own (I don't remember seeing info analisys resistance, could be wrong but we'll see) but Ainz will still assume that the Horror has a trump card of some kind (something Ainz always does, at least at first) so it's VERY unlikely he goes Perfect Warrior at any "early" point of the fight, even with weapons/armors from the treasury at hand.
Oh yea, I agree, if his conclusion after observing what the Horror can do was that his best path to win is Perfect Warrior he's 100% going to use it, but this is only happening after the fight has gone on for a while.
You keep saying that summons won't do shit/will get shredded and I can't really see any good reason why:
after realizing his magic doesn't work for damage he's 100% going to resort to the stronger summons and (since he is, after all, a being that was blessed with the gift of sentience) I'd assume he's only going to bring out the "beatsticks" ones like the Doom Lord (and, just to make the most unreasonably conservative assumption, let's say it's the only undead he has that can fit this role) which are all weaker but comparable to him, on top of spells like Obsidian Sword (doubled or tripled) so I fail to see how an undead stronger than the Horror backed up by 1/2/3 flying swords of comparable AP to (at least) the Doom Lord can be ineffective.

Yeah, Pantheon is IC, but tell me, do you know what they do? I don't think so, and see my argument above for that being unoptimal, especially if they don't do much to drain resources at all, especially since it's not hard to outskill an Overlord character. They don't have a lot of skill feats. So if the hunter is outskilling the summons and barely taking damage, yeah.

Once again even if the angels were just "I use sword and fly" (which I'd consider a reasonable but conservative assumption) they'd still be 6 beatsticks that are stronger than the Horror, regardeless though...fine, since we know nothing about them aside their LvL I won't consider Pantheon as a factor.
The skill bit is...interesting, I'd say you need some VERY good feats to prove you can easily "outskill and barely take damage" against multiple enemies that are comparable or stronger than you unless your opponents are COMPLETELY inept (which is not the case here) so, even assuming the Horror is a better fighter than Ainz or any of his summons, (which is likely) I wouldn't just go "lolskill" when you're at a numbers and AP disadvantage.

Ah yes, tons of fodder... up to 32... yeah some things may need a couple revisions, regardless Ainz can't spam summons like your saying he can, he has four summons that can do anything except for tank hits, and those summons are ridiculously weaker than Ainz lol

Where are you getting the 32 from? Because Armageddon Evil definitely isn't capped there. (though to be fair, as I already said, Armageddon Evil would probably only be useful as Shub fodder)
Also I assume the 4 summons you are talking about are the "summon high tier undead" ones (as I said, let's assume it's just the Doom Lord), the ones that downscale from Ainz but are not ridiculously weaker in any way, expecially when you factor in the fact that undead created by Ainz are quite a bit stronger than regular ones.

Because he didn't exactly have time to change gear, also, he changed gear from Perfect Warrior to his robes automatically, so yes he can change main gear mid-fight now that I remember

How do you know that he didn't when we did not see the fight? Couldn't it be that he didn't have time to do that because he was fighting? Still it's fine, he could probably gain enough time to change gear in this fight and it's not like it's a big deal anyway.

Probably Mr._Bambu, who's also a DnD guy

Do I ping him here, message him or something else?

Mate, your talking with a guy who deals with army solo skill feats on a regular(Warcraft, Warhammer, RotMG...), 6 or 4v1, while impressive, can be done. Especially with a sword and wide sweeps, keep in mind, I don't know the DnD skill feats, so I'm playing it safe by putting them above the threshold of soldier, which is what Overlord is at for its Low 7-Cs right now to my knowledge. That will give it the skill to do a 6v1 without too much issue. Around 2x AP disadvantage be damned.

I'm getting 32 from the fact Ainz can summon 20 low-tier undead and 12 mid-tier undead a day. Armageddon Evil is just something he lying around somewhere.

Because we kind of know kind of how it went, plus Ainz fought another dragon later he didn't have the time to switch gear and such lol

You message him. Ping doesn't work for blue names like us

 

[Carfusso]

Mate, your talking with a guy who deals with army solo skill feats on a regular(Warcraft, Warhammer, RotMG...), 6 or 4v1, while impressive, can be done. Especially with a sword and wide sweeps, keep in mind, I don't know the DnD skill feats, so I'm playing it safe by putting them above the threshold of soldier, which is what Overlord is at for its Low 7-Cs right now to my knowledge. That will give it the skill to do a 6v1 without too much issue. Around 2x AP disadvantage be damned.

I...don't think that's how it works, first of all I'm not sure those army-soloing feats were done against armies of fighters with comparable stats since named characters tend to be the ones with outstanding stats in their verses but I'll assume they were comparable for the sake of argument (don't bother elaborating too much, I'll just trust you since I'm not planning matches with any of those verses), in that case the people that do this are treated as incredibly skilled, there's MANY of them in WH fantasy sure but still, (even there) not everyone can do that.
Regardeless though, you need some pretty heavy skill feats (like doing it in your own verse, or doing something "as impressive") to prove you can even just 2v1 opponents with comparable (or slightly higher in this case) AP, expecially while "barely taking damage", that shit is hard to do. Ironically enough the fact that I'm "talking with a guy who deals with army solo skill feats on a regular (Warcraft, Warhammer, RotMG...)" might just mean you are starting to underestimate how hard it is to fight comparable opponents while at a numbers disadvantage, the fact that there's a fkton of characters doing it in those verses doesn't mean that anyone with better skill than the opponents can 2/3/4v1 them (at least not easily and without taking meaningful damage), it just means that those verses are filled to the brim with characters that can do it.

I'm getting 32 from the fact Ainz can summon 20 low-tier undead and 12 mid-tier undead a day. Armageddon Evil is just something he lying around somewhere.

Oh ok, still Death Knights do get some use as meatshield so he's realistically got 20 useless fodder and 12 "couple of seconds of respite do do some shit"

Because we kind of know kind of how it went, plus Ainz fought another dragon later he didn't have the time to switch gear and such lol

Yea so that's what I'm saying, he can't just change gear for free, he'll get the time to do it in this fight though

You message him. Ping doesn't work for blue names like us

Got it, I'll do it

 

[DaReaperMan]

Mate, your talking with a guy who deals with army solo skill feats on a regular(Warcraft, Warhammer, RotMG...), 6 or 4v1, while impressive, can be done. Especially with a sword and wide sweeps, keep in mind, I don't know the DnD skill feats, so I'm playing it safe by putting them above the threshold of soldier, which is what Overlord is at for its Low 7-Cs right now to my knowledge. That will give it the skill to do a 6v1 without too much issue. Around 2x AP disadvantage be damned.

I...don't think that's how it works, first of all I'm not sure those army-soloing feats were done against armies of fighters with comparable stats since named characters tend to be the ones with outstanding stats in their verses but I'll assume they were comparable for the sake of argument (don't bother elaborating too much, I'll just trust you since I'm not planning matches with any of those verses), in that case the people that do this are treated as incredibly skilled, there's MANY of them in WH fantasy sure but still, (even there) not everyone can do that.
Regardeless though, you need some pretty heavy skill feats (like doing it in your own verse, or doing something "as impressive") to prove you can even just 2v1 opponents with comparable (or slightly higher in this case) AP, expecially while "barely taking damage", that shit is hard to do. Ironically enough the fact that I'm "talking with a guy who deals with army solo skill feats on a regular (Warcraft, Warhammer, RotMG...)" might just mean you are starting to underestimate how hard it is to fight comparable opponents while at a numbers disadvantage, the fact that there's a fkton of characters doing it in those verses doesn't mean that anyone with better skill than the opponents can 2/3/4v1 them (at least not easily and without taking meaningful damage), it just means that those verses are filled to the brim with characters that can do it.

I'm getting 32 from the fact Ainz can summon 20 low-tier undead and 12 mid-tier undead a day. Armageddon Evil is just something he lying around somewhere.

Oh ok, still Death Knights do get some use as meatshield so he's realistically got 20 useless fodder and 12 "couple of seconds of respite do do some shit"

Because we kind of know kind of how it went, plus Ainz fought another dragon later he didn't have the time to switch gear and such lol

Yea so that's what I'm saying, he can't just change gear for free, he'll get the time to do it in this fight though

You message him. Ping doesn't work for blue names like us

Got it, I'll do it

Yes, fighting multiple opponents is difficult, it's why I specified how one can do it without being bullshit like WHF or Warcraft, and the general way to fight multiple opponents, especially since the Horror has a weapon, is to make wide sweeps or force one away from the rest and nuke them, obviously, the ladder won't work, so the former it is. Another detail is to keep all opponents in front of you. Obviously, both are very easy here, and another thing making this easier is piercing damage. Yeah. It's about to get fucky.

To explain piercing damage for a sword in this case is simple, it's about like shooting a sniper rifle like a Barret 50 except with less piercing damage. Guns, especially ones as strong as fast as Supersonic+, have a **** ton of piercing damage, and can even minorly harm 8-Cs, keep in mind even Mini/machinegun bullets are 9-C, however it's not quite that strong for a sword outside of that super thin tip, so the sword is going to be doing WORK due to piercing damage.

Another thing I missed was the fact that the Horror has reactions over 10x higher than it's actual combat speed, and that will actually remain under speed equal, under the rules detailed Here. So the Horror is going to have a very easy time dodging, as it'll be seeing the various ***** in slow motion.

Now onto your actual other stuff, yeah, DKs serve as good meat shields to temporarily keep the horror back, but that's temporarily, and it won't take very long either as DKs are very much 9-A

Mhm.

 

[Carfusso]

Yes, fighting multiple opponents is difficult, it's why I specified how one can do it without being bullshit like WHF or Warcraft, and the general way to fight multiple opponents, especially since the Horror has a weapon, is to make wide sweeps or force one away from the rest and nuke them, obviously, the ladder won't work, so the former it is. Another detail is to keep all opponents in front of you. Obviously, both are very easy here, and another thing making this easier is piercing damage. Yeah. It's about to get fucky.

To explain piercing damage for a sword in this case is simple, it's about like shooting a sniper rifle like a Barret 50 except with less piercing damage. Guns, especially ones as strong as fast as Supersonic+, have a **** ton of piercing damage, and can even minorly harm 8-Cs, keep in mind even Mini/machinegun bullets are 9-C, however it's not quite that strong for a sword outside of that super thin tip, so the sword is going to be doing WORK due to piercing damage.

Another thing I missed was the fact that the Horror has reactions over 10x higher than it's actual combat speed, and that will actually remain under speed equal, under the rules detailed Here. So the Horror is going to have a very easy time dodging, as it'll be seeing the various ***** in slow motion.

Now onto your actual other stuff, yeah, DKs serve as good meat shields to temporarily keep the horror back, but that's temporarily, and it won't take very long either as DKs are very much 9-A

Mhm.

Ok so gj, you make wide sweeps, wide sweeps are also slower due to...you know...being wide and missing equals getting hit by multiple sources since...you know...there's multiple opponents...not to mention the fact that if the first target decides "I'll block it with my weapon or just take the hit" (and they can, since they are at least just as strong as you) your sweep has been stopped, you're now in "endlag" (sorry for the "fighting game terminology", I hope it's understandable) and you're about to eat at least a hit from ALL the other opponents. Also in what universe is it easy to keep a massive Scythe weilding undead AND 3 flying B.F. swords in front of you at all times? And this is just a small part of the disadvantages of fighting while outnumbered
So yea...still not convinced you can easily 4v1 without some REALLY good skill feats to back it up, now would it win the 4v1? Likely yes, expecially given the speed point...but it's definitely not a 1-sided beatdown and the Horror is not coming out with minimal damage unless it has some insane skill feats.
(I'm sure you know this but still...B.F. swords is a reference to LoL that references the B.(ig) F.(ucking) gun in...tf2 I believe)



I mean...obviously you didn't know that but you just explained the concept of pressure to a physics student...ok I guess...why wouldn't the Doom Lord AND Obsidian Swords do the exact same (you know...we got a scythe and literal swords here) expecially coming from a slightly higher AP value to begin with? (also this feels a bit fucky, aren't ratings supposed to be with standard equipment taken into account? Wouldn't it be 8-A, higher with sword for example if the wiki treated it like you said?)


Wait wtf? I didn't see that. So the first rating is combat speed and the second is just reactions? Well that definetly helps it in not getting overwhelimed for sure but you still need some crazy shit in order to prove it will just curbstomp a 4v1 scenario. Reactions help but you still need to move fast enough.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ok so gj, you make wide sweeps, wide sweeps are also slower due to...you know...being wide and missing equals getting hit by multiple sources since...you know...there's multiple opponents...not to mention the fact that if the first target decides "I'll block it with my weapon or just take the hit" (and they can, since they are at least just as strong as you) your sweep has been stopped, you're now in "endlag" (sorry for the "fighting game terminology", I hope it's understandable) and you're about to eat at least a hit from ALL the other opponents. Also in what universe is it easy to keep a massive Scythe weilding undead AND 3 flying B.F. swords in front of you at all times? And this is just a small part of the disadvantages of fighting while outnumbered
So yea...still not convinced you can easily 4v1 without some REALLY good skill feats to back it up, now would it win the 4v1? Likely yes, expecially given the speed point...but it's definitely not a 1-sided beatdown and the Horror is not coming out with minimal damage unless it has some insane skill feats.
(I'm sure you know this but still...B.F. swords is a reference to LoL that references the B.(ig) F.(ucking) gun in...tf2 I believe)



I mean...obviously you didn't know that but you just explained the concept of pressure to a physics student...ok I guess...why wouldn't the Doom Lord AND Obsidian Swords do the exact same (you know...we got a scythe and literal swords here) exept coming from a slightly higher AP value to begin with? (also this feels a bit fucky, aren't ratings supposed to be with standard equipment taken into account? Wouldn't it be 8-A, higher with sword for example if the wiki treated it like you said?)


Wait wtf? I didn't see that. So the first rating is combat speed and the second is just reactions? Well that definetly helps it in not getting overwhelimed for sure but you still need some crazy shit in order to prove it will just curbstomp a 4v1 scenario. Reactions help but you still need to move fast enough.

Trying to outright block a sword without a shield is a moronic thing to do, if you want to argue delay, they can't close the gap before ANOTHER attack comes, in fact, due to piercing damage, chances are trying to block with the scythe is only going to get it cut through, so now they're down a weapon AND whatever limbs and shit were behind it, and the Obsidian Swords are easy, just don't hit edge on edge, hit the side and let that do the work, and keeping everything in front of you is easy, it's called force them to go at you head on with this thing called positioning and moving, and you're assuming Ainz does this all at once. He has NEVER done that, even PA acting as Ainz(which should be consistent to Ainz because lo and behold PA has to mimic fighting styles too) didn't summon both the Doom Lord and the Elemental skull at once and never summoned the blades, so your arguing Ainz not acting as he(or someone who mimicked him) has done ever.

I am not a telepath, and honestly I don't care what your student history is either, just because we both understand this doesn't mean it isn't there, the swords are out of play so we don't mention them again, and the Doom Lord's scythes are frankly badly made, half of what you'd think was the edge is instead fancy shit and the other half is made in such a way where the scythe is just more durable with a VERY pronounced medial ridge, which grants a far less sharp edge than what the Horror has. And as for the "higher with sword" thing, it's kind of just that thing where it's physics, it's gonna be brought up, but nobody feels the need to put it on the profiles.

They're literally equal in combat speed. The Horror would never get touched ever unless it's the world's worst fighter.

 

[Carfusso]

Trying to outright block a sword without a shield is a moronic thing to do, if you want to argue delay, they can't close the gap before ANOTHER attack comes, in fact, due to piercing damage, chances are trying to block with the scythe is only going to get it cut through, so now they're down a weapon AND whatever limbs and shit were behind it, and the Obsidian Swords are easy, just don't hit edge on edge, hit the side and let that do the work,

Why can't they close the gap b4 the next attack if speed is equal? That would mean the Horror is fast enough to fend off attacks from 4 different sources...exept these sources are just as fast as it is...something is missing here. I mean if they conga-line and face the Horror 1 at a time sure but I'd wager that's not what's going to happen.
Also it is stupid in a 1v1, in a 4v1 where the thing that gets hit is an expendable undead it can be a real option when (just as the quickest and stupidest example possible) the Doom Lord is on its last legs it blocks and takes a hit leaving the Horror open to getting hit by the swords.
I...don't see your point on the swords...THEY are deciding to hit with the sharp end regardeless of what you want and I'm not sure you can say it's easy to make sure 3 flying swords attaking simultaneously (with comparable speed and power) never hit with the sharp part without some stupid skill feats

and keeping everything in front of you is easy, it's called force them to go at you head on with this thing called positioning and moving,

Forcing 4 opponents that are all at least comparable to you (3 of which can fly) in power and speed definitely isn't as easy as you are impliying since they can also use this thing called positioning and moving...exept there's 4 of them.

and you're assuming Ainz does this all at once. He has NEVER done that, even PA acting as Ainz(which should be consistent to Ainz because lo and behold PA has to mimic fighting styles too) didn't summon both the Doom Lord and the Elemental skull at once and never summoned the blades, so your arguing Ainz not acting as he(or someone who mimicked him) has done ever.

Well that's true...to an extent: first of all PA was explicitly told to hold back as that fight was planned to be for information gathering and feeding false info to the PDL so while that fight is decently consistent with Ainz's general tactics it isn't a 1 to 1 rappresentation. Also you are ignoring 2 factors: 1)PA did use Twin Magic, Obsidian Sword and 2)the PDL isn't immune to all of Ainz's spells so PA was trying to blast him as well. Here blasting is out of the question apparently (still feels like a weird way to treat resistance but we should get an answer soon enough) so other things are getting used and the swords are a good option we know he can use.


I am not a telepath, and honestly I don't care what your student history is either, just because we both understand this doesn't mean it isn't there, the swords are out of play so we don't mention them again, and the Doom Lord's scythes are frankly badly made, half of what you'd think was the edge is instead fancy shit and the other half is made in such a way where the scythe is just more durable with a VERY pronounced medial ridge, which grants a far less sharp edge than what the Horror has. And as for the "higher with sword" thing, it's kind of just that thing where it's physics, it's gonna be brought up, but nobody feels the need to put it on the profiles.

Why are the swords out of play again?
On what basis is the Doom Lord's scythe less sharp than the horror's sword? And even if it was I don't think you can argue it's a blunt weapon so piercing/slashing damage still applies.
Considering this is the first time I see it brought up in a vs thread (technically the second, the first was still from you in the Chakax, vs Garou thread) I'd say either that needs to be added to profiles or standardized in some way.

They're literally equal in combat speed. The Horror would never get touched ever unless it's the world's worst fighter.

Equal in combat speed vs multiple opponents means THEY hold the advantage as they just cover more space, the horror having faster reactions means it has an easier time not getting overwhelmed but it still needs to move fast enough to stop multiple attacks likely coming from different angles. Getting hit sometimes but still winning in this situation is NOT an indicator of "being the world's worst fighter" it's an indicator of "being a good fighter but not having BS skill feats that make it believable it can deal with multiple simultanous attacks from stronger enemies no problem"

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ainz is a decently intelligent individual, particularly in metagaming. As far as he's concerned, he's in a video game, and treats things as such. Because of that, I do think he has a good chance of dealing with the Horror. After noting that his abilities do very little, but that he is more powerful than the Horror, I truly doubt he won't just pelt it with as much damage as possible. The Horror's ability to teleport away is fine and all, but it will stay in combat- Horror's aren't really made to run away.

Given this, I'd vote for Ainz via AP advantage and the fact that I think he'd figure the Helmed Horror out within a reasonable timeframe.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Ainz FRA

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Ainz fra

 

[Epiccheev]

Magic bones FRA