A possible new rule for gender sections in our character profile pages

[Antvasima]

I wish.

 

[Jasonsith]

The major focus on the vocal LGBTQIA+ rights advocaters are that characters should be called by their current status.

I believe that, to avoid disrespect while maintaining information and objectivity, we may continue to list M(AFAB) and F(AMAB) for such characters but just call the characters by the current gender they proclaim their current gender status.

If one can feel confused, we can add guidelines to how characters should be called given the different statuses.

 

[Damage3245]

From an objective standpoint, that would be the most accurate option but several individuals are uncomfortable with that.

 

[Antvasima]

Look, we already decided to avoid including AFAB and AMAB in the gender sections, as several of our trans-members consider it very offensive.

 

[Abstractions]

I believe that, to avoid disrespect while maintaining information and objectivity, we should list M(AFAB) and F(AMAB) for such characters but just call the characters by the current gender they proclaim their current status.

Thought we were beyond that and were intent on the summary argument, not the Gender tag.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think it is the "most accurate option from an objective standpoint". It's the gender section, information on a character's sex is irrelevant. Just because it could come up in a fight with 0.1% of our characters does not really matter; it's the wrong section regardless.

If you disagree then fair enough, but it seems like your view has been outvoted.

 

[Abstractions]

I don't think it is the "most accurate option from an objective standpoint". It's the gender section, information on a character's sex is irrelevant. Just because it could come up in a fight with 0.1% of our characters does not really matter; it's the wrong section regardless.

0.1% of characters against a small minority of characters that also would need to be within the tier range to even have a match discussion. That's what this is attempting to appeal to.

 

[Damage3245]

To me the label has more to do with gender than sex, but I'll drop it. Going to sleep now anyway.

 

[Jasonsith]

Look, we already decided to avoid including AFAB and AMAB in the gender sections, as several of our trans-members consider it very offensive.

I am asleep (from 1 am to 7 am SGT) while the announcement is made. And I am getting up, cleaning myself and having breakfast and going to work.
Therefore I cannot really give feedback to how to give alternatives to address the concerns of some of our staffs here on time. Sorry.

Jasonsith has been outvoted

I would like people to reconsider. Digging into paragraphs just to understand one character for one ability is already cumbersome. And this should not be done on a relatively simple column.

The Fandom staff already make their standpoints. And that basically out proposed change is more on not to "provoke anger among some of our members", and therefore out real change should be that we can make guidelines on the standard character profile editing page on how different gender characters should be greeted or referred to or whatever instead.
Like, teach people to greet F(AMAB) as F instead even if they are listed as F(AMAB). This will not provoke disrespect.

This is a general topic supposed to be anyway. In fiction there will be more complex cases, and I really want to maintain information objectivity while calming as many valuable members as possible. I am sorry if this has caused any inconvenience. Just, please. Focus on education rather than truncation.

 

[Moritzva]

I don't think a character's assigned gender at birth is really at all relevant and needs to be pointed out. In the very, remarkably rare scenario that it ends up being relevant, just address it on the thread.

 

[Abstractions]

And that basically out proposed change is more on not to "provoke anger among some of our members"

Have we not already decided to appeal to "sensitivities" when we started introducing content warnings on pages? To not "trigger" people? Don't think you can really use that as a point against the opposition.

 

[Agnaa]

I would like people to reconsider. Digging into paragraphs just to understand one character for one ability is already cumbersome.

That just has to be done for obscure abilities. We are not going to list every character's "regrets and bad memories they're trying to leave behind" just to make it easier to match them against Koyomi Araragi. We are not going to list every character's nightmares just to make it easier to match them against Sylvester Ashling. These sorts of complicated abilities often just need to be hashed out in threads, and that's okay.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I agree with the exclusion of AFAB and AMAB whether or not it has been accepted everywhere by the majority as appropriate.

I also agree that a summary is needed to address any confusion visitors may have idk.

So I propose a footnote on the gender on the gender section. Maybe like this for example

Gender: Female [1]

Which would link to a summary at the bottom of the page explaining that the character is a transgender character in a respectful way that I am unsure of at the moment. Maybe the members in the community who can relate can come up with something, I really hope they do. But fpr the sake of the members of our community who are offended by the AFAB AMAB thing we should ignore that completely.

 

[The_Impress]

Just, please. Focus on education rather than truncation

famous school topic of knowing what's inside bridget's pants. libs got to the education system too darn it.

 

[Jasonsith]

I see your points.

* To not "trigger" people? Don't think you can really use that as a point against the opposition.
If this is the focal point... We can raise alternatives. We can continue to greet characters by their current assigned gender despite their past. A new guideline with one or two lines is way simpler than making revamps on profiles for such sake.

* That just has to be done for obscure abilities. We are not going to list every character's "regrets and bad memories they're trying to leave behind" just to make it easier to match them against
The characters' past are not even necessarily bad and regretful to begin with. It could just be new aspirations. And while our current respect on the character (despite knowing their past) is important, knowing their past in a precise way only helps us identifying their way to deal with.

* agree that a summary is needed to address any confusion visitors may have idk.
I agree this should be done for the more complex gender assignment case. This is to be agreed on no matter we list a F(AMAB) as F or F(AMAB) or what else.



I can help with whatever I can (and even then my help can be accepted or not depending on the case).

Help and respect and finding ways to reconcile is important as always. Sorry again if you mistake me as disrespectful. Sorry.



And one heads up: If we decide to move on and just change the LISTING of current characters it will be difficult to do so because we have profiles with different presentations of gender assignment. (We have had simple transgender characters, we have had characters okay with their past. We have had characters that can swap characters. And so on And so forth.)
And some characters may run into a risk of not having a tag at all.
And I can say, they are more complex cases than Bridget or Yamato.
If a rule has to be applied instead of making a guideline, this will mean potentially massive revamp projects. Like correction on every list of every "M previously F" into "M" and then review every paragraph to see if the gender.

Like I respect everyone here. And I still believe a guideline on how to greet more complex characters is way simpler for the sake of properly greeting characters at a currently assigned gender and not provoking anger for some of the more sensitive staff here.

 

[Agnaa]

The characters' past are not even necessarily bad and regretful to begin with. It could just be new aspirations.

I know? I was bringing up a character who can warp reality to bring other character's regrets and bad memories into existence.

knowing their past in a precise way only helps us identifying their way to deal with

That can be included under other keys, the name section, or the summary. I just don't think the gender section is a great place.

 

[Jasonsith]

May I ask: if we are going to at least agree to greet the characters by their current genders as long as they list as such, no matter their past genders assigned at birth or by who else and how they are listed in a profile.
Like we can greet a character by their current gender (whatever their past).

The characters' past are not even necessarily bad and regretful to begin with. It could just be new aspirations.
I know? I was bringing up a character who can warp reality to bring other character's regrets and bad memories into existence.

Well we have read through tales with a more horrible world than calling a character by their incorrect gender sure.

knowing their past in a precise way only helps us identifying their way to deal with
That can be included under other keys, the name section, or the summary. I just don't think the gender section is a great place.

See. Well, that can always be included under other keys, the name section, or the summary aside from the gender section. And this will be extra important if the gender section is said to be left with only the "currently identified gender".



I still believe that a guideline on how to properly greet a character with reference to their gender will serve a better purpose (that we should "greet the characters by their current genders") than reviewing, possibly revamping all profiles around here.

Especially when our current gender referencing systems is reviewed okay by Fandom and what left to do is to help addressing the concern of some staff here.
I see their concerns and I know that everyone wants to make sure their concerns have been heard (even I do - albeit may not look like what they are currently in mind).
I wish to make as simple modifications to meet their demand as possible rather than digging through all sites.
I see that a guideline on properly addressing a character is far more useful in addressing their concerns than making changes on all profiles in our site.

(I really need to get back to work - this is approaching 9 AM SGT in my time zone.)

 

[Agnaa]

ngl, I'm finding it difficult to understand your post Jason.

May I ask: if we are going to at least agree to greet the characters by their current genders as long as they list as such

Characters should be referred to by their current gender, yes.

Well we have read through tales with a more horrible world than calling a character by their incorrect gender sure.

I don't understand what you're saying here. I merely brought up an example about a character's ability relying on some information about their opponent. Why do you keep doing this weird tie-in stuff with gender?

And this will be extra important if the gender section is said to be left with only the "currently identified gender".

Meh, I don't think it's really that important.

I still believe that a guideline on how to properly greet a character with reference to their gender will serve a better purpose (that we should "greet the characters by their current genders") than reviewing, possibly revamping all profiles around here.

I don't really understand why such a thing would be necessary, but ig we could write a rule saying that characters should be referred to by pronouns fitting their current gender.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to write a new suggested rule text instead then. However, make certain to try to avoid any wordings that might be deemed offensive.

Look, we already decided to avoid including AFAB and AMAB in the gender sections, as several of our trans-members consider it very offensive.

So about this...

 

[Jasonsith]

Look, we already decided to avoid including AFAB and AMAB in the gender sections, as several of our trans-members consider it very offensive.

I am already working IRL so I shall keep it simple:

The paragraphs and posts so write is trying to make alternatives which are far easier to execute (like one guideline on how characters are greeted instead of reviewing and changing every page in our site) and far more effective in addressing the concerns of some of our trans-members.
This will ultimately serve the purpose of satisfying their concern on how characters should be greeted without making changes on what the Fandom has accepted in the past and in the present.

Sorry for any misunderstanding. (This includes you Agnaa, where I misunderstand your meaning when you talk about "reality warping".)
I can see I am likely outvoted here and you have currently outvoted things before I even make my view.
But while I am working IRL I am actually working on what to do to actually accurately satisfy the needs of our our trans-members while minimising extra workload for all staffs here.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So about this...

Ant Sir what about adding the most recent gender to the gender section and, with a footnote, referencing that gender of the affected pages to a summary at the bottom of the pages briefly explaining the history of their gender identity?


It should be a compromise for both sides. Idk.

famous school topic of knowing what's inside bridget's pants. libs got to the education system too darn it.

Is that okay with you too?

 

[Jasonsith]

Ant Sir what about adding the most recent gender to the gender section and, with a footnote, referencing that gender of the affected pages to a summary at the bottom of the pages briefly explaining the history of their gender identity?

Well we have already agreed to "add most recent gender to the gender section and, with a footnote or an including at the character summary, referencing that gender of the affected pages to a summary at the bottom of the pages briefly explaining the history of their gender identity".

We are discussing that since the notation of AMAB and AFAB format does currently comply with the current Fandom rules and guidelines regarding some staff members' concerns, should we keep these notations or drop them out.
And
(a) should we keep the notations (which will not affect how we should greet and refer such characters - as some of our staff members are concerned about), what else we can do to address their concerns of preventing characters from without sacrificing information background preciseness and objectivity. Which I have suggested that a guideline be added as a general page or an addition to such.
(b) should we drop them, what will be the treatment for more complex cases. And I can foresee a big project to deal with. (Which can be resolved if we just keep these notations but some staff members disagree.)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think making the default gender based on preferred identification is the way to go; however, I personally think details about them being transgender is harmless to have in (round brackets).

I don't see how simply mentioning a status of being transgender is even considered offensive when they're just normal people too. People should be encouraged with the way they are; both inside and outside as that's what makes everyone one of a kind and special. If it's considered offensive to even simply mention it, that inherently gives the impression that they feel ashamed of their status when no one really should just because of that. I think it's worth mentioning if a character is LGBTQ+ if they happen to be in anyway shape or form so that they're added to the list of possible candidates used to celebrate the LGBTQ+ Pride Month that we do annually. They deserve to be able to love and express themselves and not have to force themselves to live in shadows; which I think acknowledging and sharing the details or facts is the way to go for that.

Basically, I think giving a MtF Transgender stats that look like this are fine.

Female (Is a male to female transgender)

Same with FtM transgender characters

Male (Is a female to male transgender)

I also think giving artificial characters genders based off identification and/or role or appearance also sounds right to me. Character like Hatsune Miku or Cortana can just be described as female. Though in the same vein, I don't think it's harmful to mention if they physically don't have a gender via being digital or mechanical and what not.

 

[Jasonsith]

I think making the default gender based on preferred identification is the way to go; however, I personally think details about them being transgender is harmless to have in (round brackets).

I don't see how simply mentioning a status of being transgender is even considered offensive when they're just normal people too. People should be encouraged with the way they are; both inside and outside as that's what makes everyone one of a kind and special. If it's considered offensive to even simply mention it, that inherently gives the impression that they feel ashamed of their status when no one really should just because of that. I think it's worth mentioning if a character is LGBTQ+ if they happen to be in anyway shape or form so that they're added to the list of possible candidates used to celebrate the LGBTQ+ Pride Month that we do annually. They deserve to be able to love and express themselves and not have to force themselves to live in shadows; which I think acknowledging and sharing the details or facts is the way to go for that.

Basically, I think giving a MtF Transgender stats that look like this are fine.

Female (Is a male to female transgender)

Same with FtM transgender characters

Male (Is a female to male transgender)

I also think giving artificial characters genders based off identification and/or role or appearance also sounds right to me. Character like Hatsune Miku or Cortana can just be described as female. Though in the same vein, I don't think it's harmful to mention if they physically don't have a gender via being digital or mechanical and what not.

Thank you. Thank you so much for being inclusive and making sure we are in the right track.

Just some word nitpicking: the terms our current site prefers to use for transgender characters are "Male (Assigned Female at Birth)" and "Female (Assigned Male at Birth)".
That our current practices are completely in line with the current Fandom guidelines.
The Fandom does not stop us from going a hassle and change rules otherwise as long as the new rules are not against theirs and are actually what we can agree and have the resource to apply.
That The Imp-ress insists to propose to drop the AMAB and AFAB altogether.
That I see that "making a guideline to clarify how to refer characters" is a better way to properly let casuals refer to characters than changing our existing practice and undergo massive site inspection and revamp works.

Apparently all the discussions between the camp "led" by The Imp-ress and the camp "led" by me do compromise that the current practice of "add most recent gender (with remarks or not) to the gender section and, with a footnote or an inclusion at the character summary, referencing that gender of the affected pages to a summary at the bottom of the pages briefly explaining the history of their gender identity".
The difference is on the remarks that currently in line with Fandom but one camp wants to drop while the other does not see the necessity. And that to comfort the camp's concern in properly addressing a character, I propose a guideline be made on character editing section of our site instead so that people will know how to refer characters for those more complicated cases without mistreating who they are.

 

[Andytrenom]

Listing AMAB or AFAB in the gender section of trans characters brings attention to the fact they are different and can be a cause of distress for trans people. These terms are fine as replacement for biological male or female but in this context we would be unnecessarily announcing someone being Transgender

 

[Mariogoods]

First of all, I support the general idea which we take a more inclusive approach in our wiki. However, there are something awaiting for us to discuss here too which is specifically in vs debating communities when dealing with fictional characters. Fictional world generally have far more capabilities than the real world, and therefore some abilities should be discussed before we apply any change.

First, there are characters who could change their own body. (e.g. Sun Wukong, Ranma Saotome) How we treat their gender?

Second, there are characters who have abilities which only affect certain gender (e.g. Yang Guo has seduction which "works on female character", some gacha characters could induce gender-based buffs or debuffs) How we treat such abilities?

 

[BlackeJan]

Please no. We’ll end up getting people who wanna cry and try that woke shit with “why is this written male when it should be something different?!”

IMO don’t have it there for everyone’s sake

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Gender and identity debates on VSBW… These topics really do spread everywhere nowadays…

I have no comment on the thread… Don’t want any part of this at all

 

[Jasonsith]

Listing AMAB or AFAB in the gender section of trans characters brings attention to the fact they are different and can be a cause of distress for trans people

That should never stop anyone from properly identifying and greeting them.
I mean, in the past being referred as a particular gender or even sex can be offensive - that there are still people pretending to be one gender they are not just to make a living. But guess what? We can properly respect each other and properly call each other without any hiding - in a significant part of our nowadays world at least. Are we disallowed from properly calling a proper gender just because we are more aware of what they are?

(If you want to argue, there can be issues in mixing biological females with transgender females - in fact those problems are already having impacts in real life that you can read on newspapers but I dare not to explain more unless being encouraged to do so as in line with our bureaucrat's advice.)

I support the general idea which we take a more inclusive approach in our wiki

We all see here. Especially when the fictional world has already been more tolerant on how different characters are.

In fact, I thought our current standings and reference practices are good enough - Fandom cerified. That one extra guideline on properly calling characters with different gender positions should suffice to address special needs and prevent improper refrencing. Not big revamps that makes more staff feel bothered and go away.

 

[Jackythejack]

I swear if they start considering skin color and race….

We're trying to have a serious discussion here this isn't necessary.

Anyways, talking about their gender history or whatever is being suggested is, in my opinion, really not a good idea? I don't see how that could be relevant whatsoever to...anything, really. I can't stress enough that the category is GENDER and not SEX. These don't mean the same thing, as much as some people think they do. As much as you want to think they do. In today's environment, these two things are completely different.

Thank you. Thank you so much for being inclusive and making sure we are in the right track.

I'd approach this post but half of it appears to be really hard to read. I just don't understand, though, while biological sex is so important to list on profiles when there's basically no match where said information would be relevant. As others have said, there's far more useful things that could be listed on a profile that are not (specifically fears, because people like Scarecrow have fear manipulation and sometimes a fear is what you need to know in these debates). Biological sex is, ultimately, not important, and not something that's even requested on any profile.

 

[Jibz]

they “lovely” trans group is gonna get triggered and start bashing us because they didn’t get what they want

This isnt necessary, and your snarky comments arent blind to us either.

That’s why anything they ask that’s solely for or anything close to political or social views needs to be rejected immediately

We are community. We will as a result need to have social discussions. Come on man.

Trying to apply something because a group of people want it is just gonna cause shit to happen down the lane

Not only is this just a slippery slope fallacy with no presedence. It doesnt even make sense. The ”lovely trans group” as you crudely put it is against applying super specific identifiers such as AFAB or AMAB rather then just Male or Female.

Please no. We’ll end up getting people who wanna cry and try that woke shit with “why is this written male when it should be something different?!”

How a character isnt presented isnt woke shit, its correcting inaccurate misinformation.

If you wish to reply take it to my pagewall and dont dish out your thinly vieled bigotry here. Thanks.

 

[Jackythejack]

If that's your view this isn't a conversation you should be a part of, quite frankly.

if you want to spout more bigoted ideas there are many other places on the internet to do that. This is not one of those places, especially not THIS thread.

 

[AKM sama]

Guys, stop at once. This is massive derailment.

 

[BlackeJan]

Guys, stop at once. This is massive derailment.

I didn’t think we were derailing but again I want to say that I have no I’ll towards anyone

 

[Damage3245]

Far too many non-staff individuals commenting recently. Bear in mind people that the OP says "Staff Only".

 

[Jackythejack]

I assumed that at least as a member of the community in question being talked about (LGBT and all that) I could at least throw in my two cents about the policy and the discussion at hand.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Zark requested that Trans members be allowed to give their opinions on this thread and Ant approved of the request. You're fine, Jacky.

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly the fact that there is a discussion at all is incredibly embarrassing. This is hurtful to trans people, that's literally been proven by so many of them opposing it in this thread. The opinions of random cis dudes on whether they should or shouldn't feel offended are worth precisely nothing.

So unless we want to say that a tertiary data point is worth offending and disrespecting real life people (and yes, doing this to a fictional character is still hurtful to real people in the same way that me calling a black character the N word would be), it really should be an open and closed case.

Don't put AMAB/AFAB in the Gender sections. It's ignorant and offensive.

 

[Damage3245]

@Armorchompy That's a very close-minded way of approaching this. The people who are offended the most are the only people who can make decisions about what should be on our profiles? It's literally just a statement of fact on the profile, not a slur as you're comparing it to.

 

[Jackythejack]

Damage you're stressing a mostly irrelevant point on a profile and putting it above people's actual feelings. At least it feels insensitive and cold and at most it feels downright malicious.

The amount of effort that's being put to try to implement or even discuss a change that hurts or offends a good chunk of people in this community is frankly really upsetting to see.