A possible new rule for gender sections in our character profile pages

[KingTempest]

and yes, doing this to a fictional character is still hurtful to real people in the same way that me calling a black character the N word would be

Please don't use this analogy, just make your point without a comparison

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy That's a very close-minded way of approaching this. The people who are offended the most are the only people who can make decisions about what should be on our profiles?

Yes, duh. The feelings of real life people are way more important than a tertiary piece of information that I've literally never seen actually come up in a match.

It's ******* insane that I'm the one considered close-minded for thinking this.

 

[Armorchompy]

Please don't use this analogy, just make your point without a comparison

Fair enough, I apologize, wasn't too thought-out

 

[Abstractions]

I don't think it's harmful to mention if they physically don't have a gender via being digital or mechanical and what not.

That's a touch different from the topic.

(If you want to argue, there can be issues in mixing biological females with transgender females - in fact those problems are already having impacts in real life that you can read on newspapers but I dare not to explain more unless being encouraged to do so as in line with our bureaucrat's advice.)

I would stop this line of thought because I have a modicum of knowledge on where you could be potentially going with this, and I am telling you not to go down that road.

 

[Andytrenom]

I have argued about listing the characters as trans in the gender section before but went back on it once I thought about it further. Full disclosure I am genderfuild

Not every trans person will be offended by this but that doesn't mean we should ignore those who are. The idea that trans characters should have their assigned gender announced to everyone just furthers an idea of them being different, something which has been a cause of massive prejudice and cruelty. This is not a minority taking offense over something minor, this is something anyone who is familiar with trans people should understand why it causes distress

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Everyone who isn't staff or explicitly given permission to reply here needs to quit

 

[Andytrenom]

@BlackeJan Stop commenting unless you have important information to bring up

 

[AKM sama]

I still feel like my suggested text is a fair middle ground. Don't put anything in the gender tag as it can be hurtful. But if there is information you'd like to mention, put it in the summary section. And of course, always use the correct pronouns everywhere else.

Instead of going back and forth we should settle on a draft and apply it at this point.

 

[The_Impress]

Feeling abit better now.

In that case we're both guilty of that.

Yet you can't prove it because your retort genuinely is just "no im not" and "but you're totally doing it tho", your claimed "strawmanning" is me contextualizing your inane proposals in a light that happens to make you look unflattering, which, is completely on you since your proposals genuinely paint you in the worst ******* light but you're too stubborn to admit it.

If it wasn't, you wouldn't be so damn defensive right now.

You didn't say it, I did

Strawmanning as demonstrated then, Damage.

As far as I can tell, we're removing information not because it is inaccurate but because it is triggering to certain people. As a wiki editor who is trying to objective, that kind of thing does make me a bit uneasy. It's not because of any negative emotion I feel towards the trans community, trans users or trans chararacters. It's just my perspective as an editor. I don't think my beliefs make anyone's experiences on this trivial. It's just one part of the discussion on this.

This is nonsense PR and strawmanning on issues trivially. Most of your messages are this, in retrospect engaging you is unnecessary because if anyone believes the level of arguments you're putting out, they need a genuine reality check because you literally did a "I'll forgive myself".

Yes; somebody could label me as transphobic. That person themselves can also be wrong about that. It's irrelevant how "terrible" that looks. Just because somebody labels me incorrectly doesn't mean I have to just accept it.

If you prefer I can just report you to FANDOM itself and they can determine what you're saying is ignorant or not, and you doubling down on these notions inconsiderably is problematic or not, that way there is an actual judgement at play, Damage.

Otherwise consider this me bluntly stating you're insensitive as all hell right now, and your irrelevant annoyance you exaggerate to discomfort is toxic labeling, and it's not even objective, you're conflating terms irrelevant.

The only fraction of a reason this level of disrespectful comments are being allowed is Damage happens to say it in hollow politeness when he is genuinely just stating offense is valid as long as you can force in an irrelevant piece of information, and him being ignorant and dumb is being pretended as a valid excuse somehow for him to pursue this (which keep in mind Damage himself disagrees with)

Genuinely just substitute ANY OTHER MINORITY than transgender people and this moronic logic becomes apparent as problematic

When I'm being understanding for the multitude of messages, and saying that your comments or nonsensical logic is wrong and insensitive to the community and yet you keep doubling down on them, you're being stubborn in your offensiveness, this is malice. If it wasn't you'd be understanding orif you doubt me you'd ask another member of the community with regards to it, you did neither and just began claiming I was being aggressive for you disregarding basic dysphoric triggers.

 

[AKM sama]

If you prefer I can just report you to FANDOM itself and they can determine what you're saying is ignorant or not, and you doubling down on these notions inconsiderably is problematic or not, that way there is an actual judgement at play, Damage.

Don't threaten to report an admin to Fandom especially when he has constantly been polite and respectful in this discussion and you have consistently been aggressive even after being told many times to calm down. Our wiki manager has made it clear that the current listing is in line with Fandom policies and nobody is being transphobic here. Please guys, let us keep it civil.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't see any value in continuing the discussion at this point so I'll let your comment go. I'll just reiterate that I've just been trying to work by Fandom's own guidelines on this topic so trying to report me to Fandom for following Fandom's instructions doesn't seem right to me.

Seeing malice where there is none is just baffling to me. I cannot be clearer on my stance that has nothing to do with my motivations; it'll just be interpreted that way no matter what it seems. That's all I've got to say.

 

[The_Impress]

Don't threaten to report an admin to Fandom especially when he has constantly been polite and respectful in this discussion and you have consistently been aggressive even after being told many times to calm down. Our wiki manager has made it clear that the current listing is in line with Fandom policies and nobody is being transphobic here.

If you genuinely do insist there is not a fraction of insensitivity in this debate despite me repeatedly saying it is, then me making the report should only serve to verify it, AKM.

Please guys, let us keep it civil.

I'm perfectly civil, I am just demonstrating your assertions, since you're so confident on them you're nulling my complaints for two whole pages, AKM.

I don't see the issue here.

 

[The_Impress]

Or instead you do acknowledge there is insensitivity present, so much so that if I were to address on an official degree there will be consequences, thus my report has weight and so do my arguments which overpower yours.

Like it's a very easy thing to demonstrate now that I think about it.

 

[Agnaa]

Since people brought it up, I think a footnote is unnecessary, for the same reason I think including AMAB/AFAB in brackets is unnecessary.

First, there are characters who could change their own body. (e.g. Sun Wukong, Ranma Saotome) How we treat their gender?

Their gender is whatever they identify as. If that's not explicitly given, it's what they're referred to as. If that's not explicitly given, somehow, go with "Unknown".

Second, there are characters who have abilities which only affect certain gender (e.g. Yang Guo has seduction which "works on female character", some gacha characters could induce gender-based buffs or debuffs) How we treat such abilities?

It depends on the specifics of both characters. Sort it out in vs threads.

That should never stop anyone from properly identifying and greeting them.

Are we disallowed from properly calling a proper gender just because we are more aware of what they are?

Listing AMAB/AFAB is not needed for this. You can just list their current gender.

Instead of going back and forth we should settle on a draft and apply it at this point.

I already gave a draft earlier that has had little comment:

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex, such as "assigned female at birth" or "assigned male at birth".

 

[The_Impress]

Or instead you do acknowledge there is insensitivity present, so much so that if I were to address on an official degree there will be consequences, thus my report has weight and so do my arguments which overpower yours.

Like it's a very easy thing to demonstrate now that I think about it.

Silence should speak volumes here, so I'll drop it. It's irrelevant to the thread topic anyways, this was me addressing accusations that I was just "being aggressive" over "Damage and AKM's completely ideal behavior", I can demonstrate otherwise through various channels if I so wish why this is wrong if you so wish it.

Also I am fine with Agnaa's draft, either that or Nehz's proposal that " it should only list a character's gender identity"

 

[Jasonsith]

@Armorchompy That's a very close-minded way of approaching this. The people who are offended the most are the only people who can make decisions about what should be on our profiles? It's literally just a statement of fact on the profile, not a slur as you're comparing it to.

Concur.

And note that we can (in fact we should) pay attention to those needs when drafting the guidelines on how to greet or refer characters so that nobody is offended. Which is why I suggest making a draft guideline on how to get or refer to characters such that no characters will be mis-referred in this regard.

Well, I can draft such guidelines on how to greet characters properly in a few hours. That we can abide our rules set by Fandom, addressing needs of any gender, and close this topic to avoid flaming of any sort.

Agnaa's draft
The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex, such as "assigned female at birth" or "assigned male at birth".

This is based on the presumption that any AMAB AFAB thing be dropped off, which I believe is unnecessary.
I can simplify that to

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex or reproductive organs.

Even though I believe AMAB AFAB things can stay, if some specific people want them off, downtone such as simple as possible.

 

[Abstractions]

Which is why I suggest making a draft guideline on how to get or refer to characters such that no characters will be mis-referred in this regard.

Agnaa has already made a draft here:

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex, such as "assigned female at birth" or "assigned male at birth".

 

[Andytrenom]

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex, such as "assigned female at birth" or "assigned male at birth".

I believe we also aren't supposed to list them as transmale/transfemale or anything similar so maybe something like

"In case of transgender characters simply denote the gender they identity as without further comments on their biological sex"

 

[Agnaa]

Would that be an addition to my draft, or a replacement for it?

 

[The_Impress]

Concur.

Jason ngl I am shocked you aren't prefacing every sentence in your messages with "TRANS ALERT" like your last thread on the matter.

And note that we can (in fact we should) pay attention to those needs when drafting the guidelines on how to greet or refer characters so that nobody is offended. Which is why I suggest making a draft guideline on how to get or refer to characters such that no characters will be mis-referred in this regard.

We already discussed how to address it without offense, you're just immensely dissatisfied it isn't in the hyperspecific way you want it.

At this point you've genuinely just been outvoted, and when we're discussing application and you're forcing your rejected ideas across the thread it's borderline derailment.

Well, I can draft such guidelines on how to greet characters properly in a few hours. That we can abide our rules set by Fandom, addressing needs of any gender, and close this topic to avoid flaming of any sort.

You're the one who requires flaming when the topic is resolved yet you hyperfixate it. Even Damage implies to have dropped his proposals, for improper reasons but still.

If you require addressing, address my arguments with Damage, with more points than just a wordy "no its not" as you've been doing so far, otherwise you're just unnecessarily elongating the thread because of your personal dissatisfaction, in a topic that is otherwise so uncontroversial that I can't help but assume some weird politics are at hand.

Your persistence is currently beyond input so I don't feel the argument "I am just expressing my opinion" is exactly warranted, you're pursuing others to alter their opinions to be in-line with what you want.

 

[Andytrenom]

Replacement I guess? Don't see how you would follow up your draft with "in case of trans characters do this"

Btw I only added in case of trans characters because some characters in fiction undergo physical transformation without being trans so I don't know what to do there

 

[Jasonsith]

So, there are several approaches

(Versions where annotations of AMAB and AFAB be kept)

(To be drafted by Jasonsith)

(Versions where annotations of AMAB and AFAB be removed)

Version 1 (Agnaa)
The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex, such as "assigned female at birth" or "assigned male at birth".

Version 2 (Jasonsith)
The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex or reproductive organs.

Version 3 (Andytrenom)
In case of transgender characters simply denote the gender they identity as without further comments on their biological sex.

Fee free to check out for more proper wordings before we pick the final versions to go.

 

[Agnaa]

I think it could follow up mine without any changes, tbh.

As before, I don't like wording along the lines of "Only note their gender" since some characters can have interesting circumstances that are inoffensive and enlightening to explain. And on top of that, I don't think it's great to have the ruling only apply to transgender characters. If you don't think your suggestion could follow up mine, and you're concerned that people could just list the gender as "transman/transwoman/transfemale/transmale" I'd prefer adding those to the examples provided in my text. i.e.

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex, such as "assigned female at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman".

 

[The_Impress]

...there is no version to be drafted by Jasonsith as said version is rejected yet Jasonsith is too stubborn to comprehend it was, and in fact Jason's other proposal is a really dumb way to list it.

 

[AKM sama]

Or instead you do acknowledge there is insensitivity present, so much so that if I were to address on an official degree there will be consequences, thus my report has weight and so do my arguments which overpower yours.

Insensitivity and oversensitivity are subjective and depends from person to person. Again, don't make threats. You are well within your rights to do whatever you want to do. I'm not at all happy with the tone and the implied message in this comment.

 

[The_Impress]

Insensitivity and oversensitivity are subjective and depends from person to person.

We aren't discussing personal standards, trust me I no longer have casual discussions with you anymore, so you should be operating by general standards given I am obligated to talk to you on the thread, so instead of doubling down you should respect my basic ass boundaries given it's easily within your power.

Again, don't make threats.

If me demonstrating your assertions that nothing said by you and Damage can be comprehended offensive is a threat, then again that implies you recognise what you're saying is offensive by FANDOM standards yet you kept pursuing it to cause emotional distress.

You are well within your rights to do whatever you want to do.

Then there is no issue whatsoever.

I'm not at all happy with the tone and the implied message in this comment.

You're unhappy whenever I seem to disagree with you specifically in a thread, AKM, otherwise my behaviour happens to be a non-issue you never seem to address.

If my tone is having a separate viewpoint than you and not treating my own experiences with dysphoria as dismissable I am sorry that I cannot change that.

Also you're derailing, shift this to an HR report or my DMs.

 

[Abstractions]

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's sex, such as "assigned female at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman".

Should we additionally attempt to acknowledge the inevitability that is the ultra-specific gender-based power to this? Something like:

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not include descriptions of a character's biological sex, such as "assigned female at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman". In circumstances that involve gender-specific powers/abilities, their function should be quantified before addressing whether or not the character's biological sex is going to be factor in the thread.

This may be unnecessary given how it's such a hyper-specific rarity, but it at least covers the eventuality.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

EDIT: Edited to highlight it as biological sex.

 

[Andytrenom]

Very slight alteration I would suggest

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not make note of a character's biological sex, such as "assigned female at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman".

 

[Agnaa]

@Abs I think that's off-topic, unnecessary, and not deserving of being in the same rule.

I don't really understand your suggestion for how to treat it, but my suggestion on how to treat it is "discuss it in the relevant vs thread". If it ends up being something where people disagree on how the user's abilities function, that should be discussed in a relevant CRT for that verse alone.

Very slight alteration I would suggest

That seems fair, but I'd also want to tidy up the grammar to make sense with that reword. Bolding the parts I newly added:

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not make note of a character's biological sex, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman".

 

[Abstractions]

"discuss it in the relevant vs thread"

That is effectively what it's saying.

 

[The_Impress]

I'll suggest a minor additon that

The "Gender" section of our profiles should not make note of a character's biological sex over or alongside their chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman".

That makes the intent abit more apparent I feel, so certain vague or grey area cases aren't penalized

 

[Antvasima]

So how about this rule text then? Is it acceptable?

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of transgender characters in their character profile pages. The "Gender" section of our profiles should also not make note of a character's biological sex over or alongside their chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "assigned male at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman". For further information, click here."

 

[Agnaa]

That's fine enough, I did cut the other "assigned" one since it seemed redundant , but it can be re-added like that. I also didn't find linking Fandom's guide to be too useful since it has different standards from us, but if people want to, idc.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I thought that they might list some extra rules that I have forgotten about.

Also, I updated my last draft text above.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we use "chosen gender identity" or "currently chosen gender identity", in case they change their minds at a later point?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

latter

 

[Damage3245]

"Chosen gender identity" is sufficient since it is for the characters in the present. We don't need to imply that they might change later on.

 

[The_Impress]

Should we use "chosen gender identity" or "currently chosen gender identity", in case they change their minds at a later point?

Fandom seems to prioritise using current chosen gender, as Viktor Hargreeves' page was edited to uninclude his season 1 or 2 gender identity being referenced.

 

[Agnaa]

That seems fine, I don't care much about "currently" or no "currently".

 

[Jasonsith]

That seems fine, I don't care much about "currently" or no "currently".

Same