A possible new rule for gender sections in our character profile pages

[Antvasima]

Fandom seems to prioritise using current chosen gender, as Viktor Hargreeves' page was edited to uninclude his season 1 or 2 gender identity being referenced.

Okay, so is this fine to add then?

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of transgender characters in their character profile pages. The "Gender" section of our profiles should also not make note of a character's biological sex over or alongside their currently chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "assigned male at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman". For further information, click here."

 

[Jasonsith]

If you ask me, I would like to slightly modify the wordings as follows:

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of transgender characters in their character profile pages. For further information, click here.
We are reminded not to stress notes on a character's biological sex over or alongside their chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "assigned male at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman" when editing or reading the "Gender" section of our profiles."

That users from other political backgrounds will at least understand that we have currently upheld a house rule otherwise stricter than what currently accepted by Fandom.

 

[Agnaa]

Eh, I prefer Ant's latest version over Jason's, here. It seems more fitting of rules text.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems easier to understand, yes.

 

[Jasonsith]

Eh, I prefer Ant's latest version over Jason's, here. It seems more fitting of rules text.

I see your point. The main difference is basically grammar edit and some stress on our house rules that are otherwise stricter than what the Fandom has upheld. My #202 draft version is basically a grammatical modification from Ant's.

So Ant's #201 version still needs some grammar work to polish.

Screw it I shall make a #205 version:

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of transgender characters in their character profile pages. For further information, click here.
We are reminded not to stress notes on a character's biological sex over or alongside their chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "assigned male at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman" at the "Gender" section of our profiles."

Consider it a grammatical modification from Ant's

 

[Agnaa]

Nah I think Ant's is good grammatically.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ugh, I’m gonna regret this by stepping in. Let me first say that I don’t wanna offend anyone, but isn’t this a staff only thread? Why should regular users be able to comment on this CRT solely because they are transgender? Doesn’t that kinda go entirely against the “Everyone has a say” mentality? Are we really excluding every other regular member because they’re not a member of a specific community? That really doesn’t seem fair to me… Just because you’re not part of the community that’s being talked about, that doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to give your opinion on the discussion, hence why this was initially made staff only, so as to keep it solely between staff. This site is meant to be an objective place that indexes factual information to the best of our ability. Being offended alone is not actually a good counter argument to the presented suggestion for usage of AFAB or AMAB. Like Damage and AKM said, this is merely a way to add more information to an idenxing site and clarify the exact situation of several characters. Let’s say that I was offended by a character’s backstory, does that mean it shouldn’t be mentioned on a profile solely because I was offended by it? No, of course not. My personal opinions and beliefs have no say on factual statements about a character. VSBW is literally all about trying to remove biases and reach a factual as can be index of a character. So that’s my opinion of this all. Also side note, don’t compare calling someone AFAB and AMAB to usage of the N word. They are not even remotely on the same level of offensiveness, even in the eyes of Fandom itself.

Well that’s my two cents on the matter. I’m going to leave the thread for real now out of fear of being ostracized and called a bigot for my opinion.

 

[Abstractions]

Ugh, I’m gonna regret this by stepping in. Let me first say that I don’t wanna offend anyone, but isn’t this a staff only thread? Why should regular users be able to comment on this CRT solely because they are transgender? Doesn’t that kinda go entirely against
the “Everyone has a say” mentality?

Because the topic directly concerns them.

Are we really excluding every other regular member because they’re not a member of a specific community?

Agnaa has been contributing and was (until today) not staff, and not transgender.

Just because you’re not part of the community that’s being talked about, that doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to give your opinion on the discussion, hence why this was initially made staff only, so as to keep it solely between staff.

Except when this becomes a conversation on potential ignorance, the voices of those this has an effect on are important. If we had a thread on autism would you not hold preference towards the opinions of those who deal with it daily?

This site is meant to be an objective place that indexes factual information

And what better way to educate people than by prioritizing transgender voices when the subject matter is about them!

Being offended alone is not actually a good counter argument to the presented suggestion for usage of AFAB or AMAB.

Would you be opposed to removing content warnings from things that pertain to suicide then? Being offended or triggered isn't exactly a good argument to have them, no?

Also side note, don’t compare calling someone AFAB and AMAB to usage of the N word.

Spoken by someone that isn't affected by either of these things, and would tell you not to prioritize the voices of said group that is affected should a staff only thread arise on the subject.

I’m going to leave the thread for real now out of fear of being ostracized and called a bigot for my opinion.

You'd only be called a bigot if you expressed willful ignorance.

 

[The_Impress]

Ugh, I’m gonna regret this by stepping in. Let me first say that I don’t wanna offend anyone, but isn’t this a staff only thread? Why should regular users be able to comment on this CRT solely because they are transgender?

It's almost as if this CRT is dependent on gauging if trans people are offended by certain aspects of the proposal.

Are we really excluding every other regular member because they’re not a member of a specific community? That really doesn’t seem fair to me… Just because you’re not part of the community that’s being talked about, that doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to give your opinion on the discussion, hence why this was initially made staff only, so as to keep it solely between staff.

Fam we can't even lock verse discussions to staff fully if it's relevant for non-staff supporters to input, see the DC thread.

This is literally gatekeeping in favour of staff lmao.

This site is meant to be an objective place that indexes factual information to the best of our ability.

Index RELEVANT FACTUAL INFORMATION, void the fact the information in question is trivial.

Being offended alone is not actually a good counter argument to the presented suggestion for usage

It is, we've banned various files because they can cause offense if listed. Please make a thread to index Abrahamic God if you disagree otherwise, if not please do not invent ideals wiki has never subscribed to, to further your bizarre point.

Let’s say that I was offended by a character’s backstory, does that mean it shouldn’t be mentioned on a profile solely because I was offended by it? No, of course not. My personal opinions and beliefs have no say on factual statements about a character.

This is actually horrendous understanding of scale and dysphoria.

VSBW is literally all about trying to remove biases and reach a factual as can be index of a character. So that’s my opinion of this all.

We literally disallow shit like "advertisement and music video characters" because of our bias that they're "too stupid to list" and disallowed Cool Cat from getting files for similar reasons.

And we disallow various minor comic characters to be listed for subjective reasons (ones I agree with but still)

Also side note, don’t compare calling someone AFAB and AMAB to usage of the N word. They are not even remotely on the same level of offensiveness, even in the eyes of Fandom itself.

Literally, thank you for telling what is offensive and what isn't as someone external to the community and thus having no real metric to judge it except your own limited scope, which by your comments you've shown, is assuming "libs triggered lmao" for dysphoric triggers.

Well that’s my two cents on the matter. I’m going to leave the thread for real now out of fear of being ostracized and called a bigot for my opinion.

I'll repeat what I said for Damage initially, that you're being inconsiderate of social implications for completely trivial listings irrelevant to basic debates.

 

[Jasonsith]

Cool down all of the above: I am almost feeling some "minorities" are pulling a gun and start to disrespect other people in the name of inclusion.

And I wish to say this is not how mutual respect works.

---

Well my editions are mostly based on Ant's version, just with fixed grammar, like a section does not create content, the users here does.

(And since we are deciding to hold a stricter standard than what we have currently held - which are already in line with Fandom Central Gender Identity Guidelines - I rephrased the order of the sentence. Unless you change minds again.)

So, one more draft and I hope the grammars are fixed.

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of transgender characters in their character profile pages. For further information, click here."
In particular, the "Gender" section of our profiles should not contain note of a character's biological sex over or alongside their currently chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "assigned male at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman".

 

[The_Impress]

Cool down all of the above: I am almost feeling some "minorities" are pulling a gun and start to disrespect other people in the name of inclusion.

And I wish to say this is not how mutual respect works.

Actually word it without hiding behind vague terms so I can address you properly, Jason.

---

Well my editions are mostly based on Ant's version, just with fixed grammar, like a section does not create content, the users here does.

(And since we are deciding to hold a stricter standard than what we have currently held - which are already in line with Fandom Central Gender Identity Guidelines - I rephrased the order of the sentence. Unless you change minds again.)

So, one more draft and I hope the grammars are fixed.

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of transgender characters in their character profile pages. For further information, click here."
In particular, the "Gender" section of our profiles should not contain note of a character's biological sex over or alongside their currently chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "assigned male at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman".

I still think Ant's version is just superior.

 

[FinePoint]

This is an issue I've struggled with when indexing my own characters on my website.
I had wanted to be respectful, and not being trans, I did not feel comfortable making the decision myself.
I've previously reached out to trans communities for input, and even for my roleplay purposes (where biology is particularly relevant), the prevailing opinion was that they should just be called their preferred gender, and any additional information, if important, can be discussed if it comes up.

I feel like that should work for this wiki too.
There is a small importance for sex-based abilities, which aren't uncommon, but the cost of including such sensitive information on a profile does not outweigh the small benefit of not having to ask in a random VS thread or discussion.

So, therefore, I believe the best course of action is to simply use their preferred gender.
Special circumstances can be addressed in threads themselves or the summary if needed.

 

[Agnaa]

@Jason If your main concern is just moving the "For further information, click here" part forward, that seems fine, but I don't think your other grammar changes are improvements.

 

[The_Impress]

The for further info part being up first makes sentence structure look wonk as shit imo

 

[Jasonsith]

So... A summary for TLDR:

1. Message from Lucas of Fandom (directed by Ant):

"Yamato's and Bridget's pages (where Yamato is listed as Male (Assigned Female at Birth) and Bridget listed as Female (Assigned Male at Birth)) are currently in line with Fandom's Gender Identity Guidelines. The pages do not currently have to change from my perspective as one of Fandom's Community Managers, as they meet our standards for using inclusive and respectful language.

However, it's understandable that some folks object to the use of AMAB or AFAB on these pages. The preferred way to refer to characters and people of a marginalized identity can be deeply personal and there can be disagreement between folks who share that identity. Inclusive and respectful language is a pool of terms and formats, and people can have different preferences.

As such, I would suggest gauging the members of the VS Battles community and switching to the group's preferred inclusive language."

As Ant stated in his responses to Lucas, he does not personally mind if we change our rules in this regard, in order to help maintain the peace in our community and not offend valuable contributors, but it is definitely not mandated by Fandom's community guidelines.

2. Agreed unanimously:

For all characters with a more complex gender background, a more lengthy explanation on the gender evolution or transition (with quote references on where such plot happens) will be included to preserve story information integrity and support the chosen gender currently identified while minimising possible harm against some of the transgender viewers.

Also, specific explanation is required on powers and abilities specifically dependent on characters' gender and/or assigned sex, and further explanation is encouraged in threads involving such abilities.

3. Voted in favour by majority of staff and trans members in this thread:

"Include only the present preferred gender for characters at the "gender" column and drop the AMAB / AFAB terms altogether"

4. Ant has drafted an inclusion of guidelines on editing the gender section (the #201 section). For a sake of grammatical modification and also stressing what accustomed to our communities, I have made several modifications. (The most current one being the #210 version)

I believe this is what we are currently having.

 

[Jasonsith]

The "for further info part being up first makes sentence structure look wonk as shit imo"

But it is at this thread that we have voted to remove those "AMAB / AFAB terms" out which are otherwise in line with the current practice by Fandom. Other less sensitive members (including some of our staff here) will be confused at best if the order is not switched and the wordings not tweaked to fit with our new coming standards like what we have at the #210 version.

 

[FinePoint]

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of transgender characters in their character profile pages. For further information, click here."
In particular, the "Gender" section of our profiles should not contain note of a character's biological sex over or alongside their currently chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "assigned male at birth", "transmale", or "transwoman".

Thank you for the summary, Jason. It is difficult for me to read these threads that become very long very quickly.
I have some small suggestions to make this more streamlined and proper. For starters, there is no reason to specify "trangender" characters since they're already included under the scope of "characters", and that exact diction may run into conflict where a character has abnormal biology but is not transgender (like an alien race). I also believe citing Fandom directly is more proper than the sort of casual "click here", which may not even be appropriate since you do not technically click on mobile.

Below is my version.

Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of characters in their profile pages. For further information, see Fandom's Gender Identity Guidelines. The "Gender" section of a profile should not include a character's biological sex over or alongside their chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth," "assigned male at birth", "trans male", or "trans female."

 

[Jasonsith]

Thank you for the summary, Jason. It is difficult for me to read these threads that become very long very quickly.
I have some small suggestions to make this more streamlined and proper. For starters, there is no reason to specify "trangender" characters since they're already included under the scope of "characters", and that exact diction may run into conflict where a character has abnormal biology but is not transgender (like an alien race). I also believe citing Fandom directly is more proper than the sort of casual "click here", which may not even be appropriate since you do not technically click on mobile.

Below is my #217 version.

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of characters in their profile pages. For further information, see Fandom's Gender Identity Guidelines. The "Gender" section of a profile should not note a character's biological sex over or alongside their chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth," "assigned male at birth", "trans male", or "trans female"."

This looks nice.

If you want a small fine tuning, say "include" instead of "note" on the part in italics.

 

[The_Impress]

But it is at this thread that we have voted to remove those "AMAB / AFAB terms" out which are otherwise in line with the current practice by Fandom. Other less sensitive members (including some of our staff here) will be confused at best if the order is not switched and the wordings not tweaked to fit with our new coming standards like what we have at the #210 version.

Why do other more inconsiderate members get that drastically affected by how the sentence is structured, especially when it's worded ever so poorly?

We usually list further readings at the end of the sentence anyways, basic site design 101, since it doesn't break the flow of the ideas presented :v

 

[Jasonsith]

Why do other more inconsiderate members get that drastically affected by how the sentence is structured, especially when it's worded ever so poorly?

Well, if we are making a change on rules, it will only be beneficial to us that more staff are actually okay instead of a select few.

This is just democracy 101. But I think I cannot risk derailing further if we finally have something to settle which is part of the wish of the bureaucrats on us.

We usually list further readings at the end of the sentence anyways, basic site design 101, since it doesn't break the flow of the ideas presented :v

I see your point.

I suggest Ant's #201 version be fine tuned for the fact that the Fandom staff which Ant invited actually accepted the terms like AMAB and AFAB but it is also addressed that the majority of the staff members want to drop the AMAB and AFAB terms out, which is literally outside the Fandom guidelines.

If you do not mind a #220 version:

'Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of characters in their profile pages. The "Gender" section of a profile should not stress a character's biological sex over or alongside their chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "biological female", "biological male", "trans male", or "trans female"." For further information, see Fandom's Gender Identity Guidelines. In particular, our site staff has opted to refrain from using terms like "assigned female at birth" and "assigned male at birth".'

 

[The_Impress]

In particular, our site staff has opted to refrain from using terms like "assigned female at birth" and "assigned male at birth".'

Trivial info, yeet it.

Conciseness is what's demanded, and Ant's proposal is fine, idk why you're unnecessarily makong it a big deal.

 

[Antvasima]

Given that this thread seems to cause hurt feelings and drama, I think that I somebody should just either apply my or Jasonsith's latest versions and then close this thread.

This:

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of transgender characters in their character profile pages. The "Gender" section of our profiles should also not make note of a character's biological sex over or alongside their currently chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "assigned female at birth", "assigned male at birth", "trans male", or "trans woman". For further information, click here."

Or this:

"Always consistently use the preferred pronouns of characters in their profile pages. The "Gender" section of a profile should not stress a character's biological sex over or alongside their chosen gender identity, such as by using terms like "biological female", "biological male", "trans male", or "trans female"." For further information, see Fandom's Gender Identity Guidelines. In particular, our site staff has opted to refrain from using terms like "assigned female at birth" and "assigned male at birth"."

Take note that I am currently extremely busy and very behind with my work schedule, so I would greatly appreciate if you can all manage to behave properly towards each other here in the meantime, without this situation deteriorating further. If you want to say something controversial here, please refrain from it. Thank you.

 

[The_Impress]

Former's the best imo, as said :V

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally fine with if somebody applies it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to comment here, but it's best to add a space between trans and woman (trans and male, as well). The usage of transwoman is incorrect, in particular since a lot of transphobes tend to use that to avoid directly calling trans women women. Just something I wanted to address before this gets applied.

Either of Ant's recent proposals look fine IMO.

 

[AKM sama]

Apply the first one with the change Fujiwara pointed out and close this.

 

[Agnaa]

I've made the change.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to comment here, but it's best to add a space between trans and woman (trans and male, as well). The usage of transwoman is incorrect, in particular since a lot of transphobes tend to use that to avoid directly calling trans women women. Just something I wanted to address before this gets applied.

Either of Ant's recent proposals look fine IMO.

Okay. Understood. I have corrected it.

 

[Antvasima]

Apply the first one with the change Fujiwara pointed out and close this.

I've made the change.

Thank you. I will close this thread then.