A couple undertale upgrades

[RethPo]

Why so much text

Ill respond in a few hours or tomorrow because im busy. Ill just cover like 1 sentence though

"telekinesis is 9-A"
Yeah im with you there. But its how sans uses his telekinesis is what im saying. And based on how he uses it and what it does, its not really possible for him to shatter the branch in two areas like that and leave the branch in place when its only used to send things flying. Only him or maybe his bones can pull that off.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why so much text

Ill respond in a few hours or tomorrow because im busy. Ill just cover like 1 sentence though

"telekinesis is 9-A"
Yeah im with you there. But its how sans uses his telekinesis is what im saying. And based on how he uses it and what it does, its not really possible for him to shatter the branch in two areas like that and leave the branch in place when its only used to send things flying. Only him or maybe his bones can pull that off.

I mean...

Sans ..... Branch (ground level)

Branch​

Sans / ....

Sans \ .... '\\Branch//'

Sans .... Bra~nch

 

[RethPo]

Youre probably better off drawing it on ms paint or something lmao!

 

[RethPo]

Hey everyone! Sorry im late, its a jungle out there. Had to beat an old charizard with a stick to get these cranberries.

That doesn't automatically make your suggestion the most likely to be true. There ARE more than one way he could do it, we just didn't see it, therefore it's impossible for you to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

"leg distance", a stomp with the intent of breaking a branch would make it go way further, this is not evidence. Bone and Gravity can accomplish the same thing.

Youre not listening. There are literally only two ways (bones and physical force) he could have done it based on his ability (unless you can prove gravity can somehow do it in such a specific way? didnt understand the text thing sry). The reasoning ive already mentioned, combine with yes, someone breaking a stick by walking across it to scare someone in the woods being an extremely common trope, makes stepping more likely to be true.

If you want me to be more specific. The stick you see in the middle between the broken gaps is roughly the distance between someones legs (or sans). The actual gaps in the stick are roughly the size of feet. The two places where he stomped it would have been crushed. Where are you getting the idea it would go further away? Yet somehow gravity that changes direction of things wouldnt?

How does one explain insufficiency further than the word itself?
It is not sufficient because NONE of the evidence you provide even HINTS to a physical stomp, and Sans literally never does anything similar to this throughout the whole game.

By giving reasons as to why its unlikely or finding any way to explain why those hints at him stomping it isnt enough evidence? You just seem like you have some vague intuitive idea of why it isnt sufficient, but just cant really get it out into words... or not. But if blatantly being broken in two places as if someone stomped on it, in a scene deliberately made to believe that someone stepped on it, following a common fictional trope, is what you call insufficient. Then i dont know what would convince you beyond them outright stating it or showing sans sprite on the stick.

"All the" - Why do people insist in wording situations like they have an abundant amount of evidence or indications?
You've shown one indication, and made a very significant leap of logic to link both things ("the pixels between the pieces are similar to the amount of pixel's Sans feet have, therefore stomp"? For real?)

That was two or three indications i gave but aight!

It is not Occam's Razor to say he stomping the branch, because monsters, creatures of magic and very weak in terms of physical prowess, are more likely to use magic than to physically stomp something.
Sans using magic would fall more onto Occam's Razor given the context, and furthermore, Hitchen's Razor also plays a role here.
That doesn't fit the character, nor does it fit his race, and he has other means of doing so. That's an Undyne-kind of thing to do.

Aight i see where youre coming from but a few problems. Monsters as early as ruins monsters have wall level scaling and snowdin monsters and abovehave already superhuman 9-B feats. Trying to say "it makes no sense for them to show superhuman stuff like this because theyre canonically weak" while being okay with nearly every other monster being that level is contradictory and more of an argument for it being an outlier than occams razor.

Second, them being weak is just an in verse thing where theyre physically weaker than undertale humans and cant defend themselves that well against them beyond magic and that they lack physical matter. It doesnt mean that theyre suddenly weak even by real world standards.

Third for the in character part. Not only is sans physically completely capable of destroying something with his feet. You know toby doesnt care about power levels or acknowledge that as a superhuman feat right? Breaking a stick isnt even acknowledged as some brute superhuman stomping on it. The scene just shows it as "funny skeleton scares a lone kid by snapping a stick in the woods" which, is completely in character for sans to do regardless of whether he steps on it or not. Theres nothing to even remotely suggest him breaking something with force is out of character and snapping a tree branch in the woods like that doesnt even paint the picture of some mega strong dude doing that.

 

[RethPo]

Lets try the occams razor thing again

Breaking it with his feet:
Sans can physically do so (not much to go against or support it beyond the feat itself)
Does so by teleporting to the branch and quickly moving
Branch is broken in two places (separated at between leg distance, with the gaps appaearing exactly as if someone had stepped on the stick in two places with their feet)
Follows a common trope in fiction and a scene of some unknown entity walking around in the woods and stepping on a stick to create a noise
Relatively in character (for him to teleport to the stick and break it, in the posture wed see him in normally leaving marks to show that, and move off as a way to spook someone)

Breaking it with (bone) magic:
Sans can physically do so with magic (his bones can already move at insane speeds so its not suprising)
Would have to do it by placing two bones in those specific spots and send them down really fast (instead of just using one which would be just as effective as well as those kinds of bones normally making noise and it being more difficult to pull off in a short time frame)
The aftermath is inconsistent due to the broken gaps being smaller than what his bones would create
Doesnt really follow the intent of the scene that a misterious entity is walking around the place (though it does kinda follow someone being there.
Relatively in character (using magic on somethingas a way to prank someone)

Occams razor has more in favour of it being stepped on.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Another thing against using the bones is that they are intangible, passing trough things like the player soul, they interacting with solid matter would be a strange propriet

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Youre not listening. There are literally only two ways (bones and physical force) he could have done it based on his ability (unless you can prove gravity can somehow do it in such a specific way? didnt understand the text thing sry). The reasoning ive already mentioned, combine with yes, someone breaking a stick by walking across it to scare someone in the woods being an extremely common trope, makes stepping more likely to be true.

As I said, the reasoning it's insufficient. "The pixels between the gaps is roughly the size of a leg", I think you mean width.
But that's doesn't tell us anything, breaking the log in other ways would accomplish the same. His gravity can break it the same way he harmed Frisk at the end of genocide, lift > slam.

If you want me to be more specific. The stick you see in the middle between the broken gaps is roughly the distance between someones legs (or sans). The actual gaps in the stick are roughly the size of feet. The two places where he stomped it would have been crushed. Where are you getting the idea it would go further away? Yet somehow gravity that changes direction of things wouldnt?

That's just you explaining the same thing I already said doesn't mean much.

By giving reasons as to why its unlikely or finding any way to explain why those hints at him stomping it isnt enough evidence?

"It's a common troupe",
"The pixels",
"It's the Intent"?
Those aren't really verifiable truths. Intent isn't an argument, PERIOD. Death of the Author outright refutes that.
Being a common troupe does NOT mean it has to be accomplished by physically stomping something, breaking the log in any stealthy way is enough to achieve said troupe.

So all you have are the pixels.

You just seem like you have some vague intuitive idea of why it isnt sufficient, but just cant really get it out into words... or not.

I do, I already did, you're just replying by saying "Yes, it's sufficient"

But if blatantly being broken in two places as if someone stomped on it,

"As if someone stomped on it", no.
as if someone put any sort of force on it.*

That's your confirmation bias.

in a scene deliberately made to believe that someone stepped on it,

That's your headcanon, again, Death of the Author.

following a common fictional trope,

Which doesn't have to be done through a physical stomp.

is what you call insufficient.

Yes, because none of it points towards your point.

You need to get this through your head; We do not see Sans doing this, AT ALL.
You can never prove Sans did that beyond reasonable doubt, Reth.
On top of that, we never see Sans do anything even remotely similar again, NEVER. Which puts further doubt on your assumption.

Then i dont know what would convince you beyond them outright stating it or showing sans sprite on the stick.

Any consistency, or other physical feats by characters on his tier would do it for me.

That was two or three indications i gave but aight!

One. The pixels. Intent, and Troupe are not arguments. Also, pretty sure someone else brought that up.

Aight i see where youre coming from but a few problems. Monsters as early as ruins monsters have wall level scaling

You're scaling a monster who doesn't scale to this, you're just making a pointless argument. Weaker than a child, for that matter.

Trying to say "it makes no sense for them

for Sans.

to show superhuman stuff like this because theyre canonically weak"

They are canonically weaker than humans in a physical aspect, which just means that there are Humans who scale higher than the physical feats performed by monsters. The weakest monsters (physically) is canonically physically weaker than a human, which is Frisk, who can't break said log.

Second, them being weak is just an in verse thing where theyre physically weaker than undertale humans and cant defend themselves that well against them beyond magic and that they lack physical matter. It doesnt mean that theyre suddenly weak even by real world standards.

Frisk physically > Sans

Frisk: Can't break log with physical force
Sans: Breaks it, with physical force?

Third for the in character part. Not only is sans physically completely capable of destroying something with his feet.

Prove it.

You know toby doesnt care about power levels or acknowledge that as a superhuman feat right?

Yes he does? What the hell?

Breaking a stick isnt even acknowledged as some brute superhuman stomping on it.

Yes! Because for that to be an argument, you'd have to prove yourself to be correct!!!

The scene just shows it as "funny skeleton scares a lone kid by snapping a stick in the woods" which, is completely in character for sans to do

Correct.

regardless of whether he steps on it or not.

Incorrect. How one does thing depends ENTIRELY on their character, and it's not in character for Sans to physically break something.

Theres nothing to even remotely suggest him breaking something with force is out of character

I don't have to suggest a negative, he has never done anything like it, therefore it's not in-character. Simple. As. That.

and snapping a tree branch in the woods like that doesnt even paint the picture of some mega strong dude doing that.

Yes it does, dude. Toby made it CLEAR that it was something impressive to break a "tough-looking branch" like it was nothing.

Also, also, you see it's broken in two places, diagonally. Sans was walking straight, why would it be broken in two places, and snapped diagonally like that?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Also, roughly the same size? You gotta be kidding me. It was broken in two points, so it had to be with both legs if physical stomp was the method, as we hear only one snap sound.

As you see, that's impossible.
So it's not possible for him to have physically stomped the branch with both legs, nor is it possible to break the branch in two different places with just one stomp alone.
Slamming with gravity, however, can easily achieve that .

 

[RethPo]

Jesus can you at least try to make these quotes and responses shorter instead of responding to every single minute sentence individually (for pointless reasons mostly like repeating arguments or even correcting a sentence slighly. Come on man.

Ill take some time with this but. for the scans. The difference between sans leg distance and that stick is only 1.4 times, but realistically sans could expand that gap by yknow, his legs being slightly wider or his feet facing forward at the time like his side sprite normally has. Bones cant really do that.

Also frisk wasnt incapable of breaking the branch. He was incapable of lifting it which was why the branch was called tough. Tough doesnt always imply it requires a superhuman brute mentality to crush it.

The gravity would have to lift the branch up and completely shatter it in those two different specific areas, not just snapping it but actually destroying those parts of it it so the stick is in the exact same position as before and just so happens to represent it being stepped on and flaked apart. Thats basically impossible.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The gravity would have to lift the branch up and completely shatter it in those two different specific areas, not just snapping it but actually destroying those parts of it it so the stick is in the exact same position as before and just so happens to represent it being stepped on and flaked apart. Thats basically impossible.

The branch is described as "smashed" not "snapped".
Highly doubt walking on a branch counts as smashing it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Jesus can you at least try to make these quotes and responses shorter instead of responding to every single minute sentence individually (for pointless reasons mostly like repeating arguments or even correcting a sentence slighly. Come on man.

Ill take some time with this but. for the scans. The difference between sans leg distance and that stick is only 1.4 times, but realistically sans could expand that gap by yknow, his legs being slightly wider or his feet facing forward at the time like his side sprite normally has. Bones cant really do that.

Again, that's just an ASSUMPTION my dude. Your point about pixels is no more. Christ.

Also frisk wasnt incapable of breaking the branch. He was incapable of lifting it which was why the branch was called tough. Tough doesnt always imply it requires a superhuman brute mentality to crush it.

Lifting takes more strength than striking.

The gravity would have to lift the branch up and completely shatter it in those two different specific areas.

It would have to overcome the energy necessary to break it's cross sectional area. Slamming something hard enough can do that, plus, it broke in the most robust part, which would have taken the majority of the energy.

That's basically impossible.

? I could go outside now and perform the same feat with a smaller branch.

 

[RethPo]

The branch is described as "smashed" not "snapped".
Highly doubt walking on a branch counts as smashing it.

I mean, if you step on the branch and crush everything thats underneath your foot, it would be smashing it wouldnt it?

 

[RethPo]

Again, that's just an ASSUMPTION my dude. Your point about pixels is no more. Christ.

Youre acting like pixels with sans feet was my only argument. They still resemble two places broken by footsteps either way and theres still the bones not fitting (unless im wrong on that second bit)

Lifting takes more strength than striking.

...Where are you getting that from? Theyre completely seperate. And are you seriously trying to argue a 9-B frisk cant break a branch?

It would have to overcome the energy necessary to break it's cross sectional area. Slamming something hard enough can do that, plus, it broke in the most robust part, which would have taken the majority of the energy.

I could go outside now and perform the same feat with a smaller branch.

Isnt that... almost entirely assuming that those specific parts of the stick are the most robust?

 

[Funnimane]

Lifting strength: This is just for frisk pushing rocks through the ruins. Think ive seen it get calced as either athletic or peak human which is an upgrade.

"Likely Average Human (Able to carry the Annoying Dog)"
how did people miss a feat from the beginning of the game but remember an easter egg from mid-game lmao

 

[RethPo]

Oh um also ill do a little tally on who agrees or not so far

Sans scales to the branch:
@RethPo
@JustANormalLemon
@Imaginym
possibly @XSOULOFCINDERX ?
@Funnimane
@Maverick_Zero_X

No he dont:
@GodlyCharmander
possibly @QuasiYuri ?

Neutral/hasnt decided yet:
@Psychomaster35
@Bernkastelll

 

[JustANormalLemon]

The branch is described as "smashed" not "snapped".
Highly doubt walking on a branch counts as smashing it.

Well, isn't like the entire stick is smashed other them a single part as well, sans just used a little to much force

 

[Funnimane]

this is the most heated debate I've witnessed on this site so far and it's about whether the chubby skeleton stepped on a branch or used feckin magic to destroy it lol
I agree with sans stepping on the branch, that just seems like the more logical option

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Youre acting like pixels with sans feet was my only argument. They still resemble two places broken by footsteps either way and theres still the bones not fitting (unless im wrong on that second bit)

Kinda is, Intent and "it's a troupe" can't be used as reliable arguments. It resembles destruction on that area, not exclusively what you're seeing. I believe the bones are as thick as Frisk's torso, yes.
Plus, it was broken in two different places simultaneously, with the distance between each snap being larger than Sans' leg distance, this basically matches your "evidence", making it neutral at best, and false at worst. You'd need an extra assumption for that not to be the case.

...Where are you getting that from? Theyre completely seperate. And are you seriously trying to argue a 9-B frisk cant break a branch?

Yeah, I don't know what I was on about.

Isnt that... almost entirely assuming that those specific parts of the stick are the most robust?

We don't really have a circumference, but the middle-to-end of branches are usually the most robust parts. the end being the part originally connected to a tree.

So, the pixels are basically out of the way, intent is refuted by Death of the Author, "it's a troupe" doesn't allude to anything (you can break a log in other ways to accomplish the same troupe).
So besides that, what is indicating that Sans used physical force to do so?

 

[Imaginym]

So, the pixels are basically out of the way, intent is refuted by Death of the Author, "it's a troupe" doesn't allude to anything (you can break a log in other ways to accomplish the same troupe).

I'm not usually keen on doing such things, but considering the scenario, I feel it is warranted.

@GodlyCharmander :
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Or in other words:
IT IS SPELLED "TROPE".

troupe - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

A troupe is a group of people, especially performers, not a writing device! CTRL+F finds "troupe" 7 times, all in your posts.

Sorry.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm not usually keen on doing such things, but considering the scenario, I feel it is warranted.

@GodlyCharmander :
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Or in other words:
IT IS SPELLED "TROPE".

troupe - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

A troupe is a group of people, especially performers, not a writing device! CTRL+F finds "troupe" 7 times, all in your posts.

Sorry.

Ok.

 

[Imaginym]

Anyway, questions:

1. Why apply death of the author here?
2. Why ignore the clear storytelling intent that Sans did step on the stick?
3. It's the most natural conclusion, isn't it? The same scene has him walking & hiding about, so him trampling something makes sense.
4. Why assume Gravity Manipulation? The audience has pretty much no reason to know about this, & wouldn't even find out Sans can do this unless they go Genocide, & that's LONG after the scene happens.
Sure they could intuit that since Papyrus & Sans are brothers & Papyrus can make your SOUL Blue to apply Gravity to it (Though, IIRC, it's not directly stated to be Gravity, especially not by Papyrus.) & so MAYBE they could conclude "Oh, Sans could probably manipulate Gravity".

But that's a ton of conclusions to have the audience make for a scene that seems to be just a jump scare & a fakeout: The simplest conclusion, that Sans stepped on the stick, maybe even ran across it in a hurry, seems way more sensible than him using telekinesis/Gravity Manipulation on it to snap it in 2. (Not to mention, IIRC, he's never done that on anything but SOULS, so it's not even certain he COULD do that.)

& "authors don't know physics" is a thing, too; We can't assume an author would know applying whatever force at what point(s) should break the stick in 2 places, so it seems weird to say that the stick being broken in 2 places is evidence Toby accounted for how the stick would break under real world physics after the monster magic was used on it.
So it being broken in 2 places by Gravity Manipulation/Telekinesis seems like a weird conclusion, too.

 

[Funnimane]

& "authors don't know physics" is a thing, too; We can't assume an author would know applying whatever force at what point(s) should break the stick in 2 places, so it seems weird to say that the stick being broken in 2 places is evidence Toby accounted for how the stick would break under real world physics after the monster magic was used on it.

this applies especially with undertale in particular

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Anyway, questions:

1. Why apply death of the author here?
2. Why ignore the clear storytelling intent that Sans did step on the stick?

2. answer 1.
You cannot claim a scene's intent by guessing out of nowhere. DoTA applies here.

3. It's the most natural conclusion, isn't it? The same scene has him walking & hiding about, so him trampling something makes sense.

It's a "tough" branch, he'd have to do that intentionally. Accidentally would conclude that his weight alone did that.

4. Why assume Gravity Manipulation? The audience has pretty much no reason to know about this

They don't have to. The audience's knowledge is a nonfactor. Sans did that through unknown means, that's the immutable fact. saying it's through a stomp is an assumption, and the lack of ANY other demonstration of this kind of feat makes this very iffy.

But that's a ton of conclusions to have the audience make for a scene

That's because you think the audience needs to figure that out. They don't.

(Not to mention, IIRC, he's never done that on anything but SOULS, so it's not even certain he COULD do that.)

That also applies to any physical feat from Sans?

& "authors don't know physics" is a thing, too; We can't assume an author would know applying whatever force at what point(s) should break the stick in 2 places

This also works in my favor, though. I explained and showrd that he DID portray this as a somewhat relevant feat, "this is a tough branch!" (Said by the narrator), "It was smashed like nothing..."
So this absolutely is being intended as someone dangerous, therefore we need further proof that a weak monster like Sans is capable of doing so.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Love the Shonen-verse level back and forth over breaking a tree branch

Anyway ig it makes more sense that Sans stepped on it based on what I read

 

[Imaginym]

2. answer 1.
You cannot claim a scene's intent by guessing out of nowhere. DoTA applies here.

So you deny it's a reasonable assumption that Sans stepped on the stick?

It's a "tough" branch, he'd have to do that intentionally. Accidentally would conclude that his weight alone did that.

& what if his weight did that?

They don't have to. The audience's knowledge is a nonfactor. Sans did that through unknown means, that's the immutable fact. saying it's through a stomp is an assumption, and the lack of ANY other demonstration of this kind of feat makes this very iffy.

If I recall the scene correctly, we see a shadow following, it walks, there's a snap, then it disappears.

This is very typical storytelling. We don't have to know Toby Fox personally to make this conclusion.
Whatever his intent, this could be many other authors & the simplest conclusion would be the same: The thing following the human stepped on the stick, made a sound & went back into hiding.

Looking at in isolation, logic says Sans the lazy skeleton, would not, while trying to stealthily follow (For a joke or not.), use his magic to break a stick when he's trying to hide.
& saying it's a fake-out requires assuming he'd put in that extra effort of doing the fake-out & hiding. Not to mention, saying it's a fake-out or saying he used magic also requires assuming what he did.

Of course, I'm not saying that's your position, you're saying he did it through Unknown Means.

But when we don't know what happened, we can usually assume, & whether viewed through the lens of the story's events in isolation, or through the lens of "What do authors use these kinds of scenes for", it's easy come to the same conclusion.

Regardless of how we feel about the results of the Calculation itself, the BASIS for doing the calc seems reasonable, EVEN as an assumption: The stick was stepped on.

That's because you think the audience needs to figure that out. They don't.

Usually, something in a story happens with a purpose. Perhaps character development, setting the mood, worldbuilding establishing lore, or a pivotal moment.

Things happen in a story because there's an audience to be engaged by that story, & things that serve no point in the story are often avoided or removed, much less made mandatory.
In this case, the point of the scene seems to be a small jumpscare & establishing Sans's character.

If the audience doesn't need to figure out what happened in this scene, then why does it happen?
If the audience doesn't need to figure out what happened in this scene, then why there is a new sprite & dialogue for the stick being broken?

Be it Toby Fox or whichever author, things in fiction, especially "mandatory" experiences usually have a point to them.

I'd say that even if we didn't care who the author was, it's still reasonable to assume there's supposed to be something for the audience to become informed of through this scene, & that the stick was stepped on happens to be a reasonable conclusion for such.

That also applies to any physical feat from Sans?

The point of what I said is that we don't know if he can use his Telekinesis on anything but SOULS.
We only ever see him do so on the SOUL. Why assume it's the author's intent he can do so on other things, like wood?
But you don't need magic to crush wood with bones.

This also works in my favor, though. I explained and showrd that he DID portray this as a somewhat relevant feat, "this is a tough branch!" (Said by the narrator), "It was smashed like nothing..."
So this absolutely is being intended as someone dangerous, therefore we need further proof that a weak monster like Sans is capable of doing so.

I'd argue that's questionable; "Tough" for the standards of Frisk, who explicitly can't lift said branch.

& if the scene is implying they're a threat to Frisk, whether they might be superior or inferior or whatever, then why deny that? Other than being called the weakest monster (Which is a vague comparison.), what anti-feats does Sans have?

As for weak monster feats, I don't recall the weak monster feats very well.

 

[Funnimane]

If I recall the scene correctly, we see a shadow following, it walks, there's a snap, then it disappears.

we see the branch and see it broken before we ever see sans or his silhouette; we see the branch, we hear a snapping noise when it's out of our sight from behind the tree, and when we see it again it's broken
but yeah, the implication throughout the scene is that sans is stealthily following us and we see him walking behind us a bit later on, him stepping on the branch makes the most sense with this theme

 

[RethPo]

Soooo, im already crazy lost on this discussion. But the main counter argument ive heard to the stick breaking, is that stomping on something shouldnt really scale to physicals directly. Its mainly a combination of weight and force. Like, you could even right now stomp on someones rib by falling on or stomping on them, yet you wouldnt exactly be street level. But idk the wikis standards for this.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Soooo, im already crazy lost on this discussion. But the main counter argument ive heard to the stick breaking, is that stomping on something shouldnt really scale to physicals directly. Its mainly a combination of weight and force. Like, you could even right now stomp on someones rib by falling on or stomping on them, yet you wouldnt exactly be street level. But idk the wikis standards for this.

If It was just weight, the stick would probable just snap, you need to try to crush a middle secton of a branch

 

[RethPo]

Might wanna... reword that sentence a little bit better

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Might wanna... reword that sentence a little bit better

edited

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So you deny it's a reasonable assumption that Sans stepped on the stick?

I deny it's the Author's intent, because you cannot claim that.
We don't see the feat, therefore any assumption is equally weak.

& what if his weight did that?

It wouldn't scale to his AP, much less his durability.

If I recall the scene correctly, we see a shadow following, it walks, there's a snap, then it disappears.

That's incorrect. We don't see anything, we see a silhouette somewhat after the fact.

This is very typical storytelling.

The act of breaking a branch is very typical indeed, you're still not arguing how it's done through physical force.

We don't have to know Toby Fox personally to make this conclusion.
Whatever his intent, this could be many other authors & the simplest conclusion would be the same: The thing following the human stepped on the stick, made a sound & went back into hiding.

No? Context, dude. The scene was shown as "Something capable of breaking that branch the main character couldn't even lift and considered tough-looking was broken like nothing is following Frisk", that's what the DIALOGUE says.

Looking at in isolation, logic says Sans the lazy skeleton, would not, while trying to stealthily follow (For a joke or not.), use his magic to break a stick when he's trying to hide.

He is not trying to hide, he is literally pranking Frisk, and shows up after they get to the bridge.

& saying it's a fake-out requires assuming he'd put in that extra effort of doing the fake-out & hiding. Not to mention, saying it's a fake-out or saying he used magic also requires assuming what he did.

Of course, I'm not saying that's your position, you're saying he did it through Unknown Means.

But when we don't know what happened, we can usually assume, & whether viewed through the lens of the story's events in isolation, or through the lens of "What do authors use these kinds of scenes for", it's easy come to the same conclusion.

If the assumption gives the character an upgrade, we need more solid evidence. Any would suffice for a "possibly" rating.

Regardless of how we feel about the results of the Calculation itself, the BASIS for doing the calc seems reasonable, EVEN as an assumption: The stick was stepped on.

Yeah, no. Regardless of how little it upgrades the character (it does a lot, 300 to 11000 J), if it's an assumption, that cannot be proven, has alternative solutions, and we haven't seen the feat, then it's not suitable, nor acceptable.

A new full onrating requires evidence beyond reasonable doubt. So regardless of what we argue here, the best we could manage is a "likely", if there's more evidence, of course.

I will concede if we agree on a "possibly" rating.

The point of what I said is that we don't know if he can use his Telekinesis on anything but SOULS.
We only ever see him do so on the SOUL. Why assume it's the author's intent he can do so on other things, like wood?
But you don't need magic to crush wood with bones.

He can use it on socks, I believe?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Btw, this has as much evidence as the Berdly LS feat. This shouldn't get any special treatment.

 

[RethPo]

Btw, this has as much evidence as the Berdly LS feat. This shouldn't get any special treatment.

which ones that?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

which ones that?

Berdly drops from the top of the screen, the statue drops with him after. Therefore we gave him a "possibly Class 10" for perhaps have carried his statue by himself. We don't see him do it, therefore it was just a possibly.

Either way, without any direct implications on Sans' feat, can we settle on "possibly 9-C"?

 

[RethPo]

Either way, without any direct implications on Sans' feat, can we settle on "possibly 9-C"?

Im alright with that. But his bone attacks sorta scale to his durability dont they?
So either he just scales to possibly 9-C in striking strength. Or if we say he could do it with telekinesis, then hed be at least 10-B, possibly 9-C all around.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Im alright with that. But his bone attacks sorta scale to his durability dont they?
So either he just scales to possibly 9-C in striking strength. Or if we say he could do it with telekinesis, then hed be at least 10-B, possibly 9-C all around.

That's all around, yes. AP and striking strength for obvious reasons, and durability because his leg has to be strong enough to take the own energy of his stomp.

His bone attacks bypass durability, I believe.

 

[RethPo]

Well at least nobody has to worry about outdated matchups. If everyone agrees then these two can be updated and sans and frisk unlocked.

 

[Imaginym]

I deny it's the Author's intent, because you cannot claim that.

Why can't we assume it's the intent?

We don't see the feat, therefore any assumption is equally weak.

Even those based on what's more common in situations like these, as opposed to what's not?
Even what requires fewer assumptions rather than more?

It wouldn't scale to his AP, much less his durability.

Shouldn't he be able to land with such force?

That's incorrect. We don't see anything, we see a silhouette somewhat after the fact.

Understandable. I haven't watched the scene recently, so I can believe I've been mistaken about the order of events.

The act of breaking a branch is very typical indeed, you're still not arguing how it's done through physical force.

It's almost always done through a physical act: Accidentally stepping on it.
& if Sans was walking near Frisk....

No? Context, dude. The scene was shown as "Something capable of breaking that branch the main character couldn't even lift and considered tough-looking was broken like nothing is following Frisk", that's what the DIALOGUE says.

He is not trying to hide, he is literally pranking Frisk, and shows up after they get to the bridge.

What do you mean he's not trying to hide? He gives signs he's there, but he doesn't fully show its him initially.

If the assumption gives the character an upgrade, we need more solid evidence. Any would suffice for a "possibly" rating.

Understandable. It is 1 feat, & I'd argue it's mostly implied.

Yeah, no. Regardless of how little it upgrades the character (it does a lot, 300 to 11000 J), if it's an assumption, that cannot be proven, has alternative solutions, and we haven't seen the feat, then it's not suitable, nor acceptable.

A new full onrating requires evidence beyond reasonable doubt. So regardless of what we argue here, the best we could manage is a "likely", if there's more evidence, of course.

I will concede if we agree on a "possibly" rating.

I'm fine with a "possibly rating".
I kind of agree it can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but I feel there's decent evidence in favor of it being the case, & we have good hints as to what the feat is, even if we didn't see it entirely.
So yeah, "possibly" is fine with me, too.

He can use it on socks, I believe?

Source?

 

[RethPo]

@GodlyCharmander @Imaginym So sans and frisk are unlocked (monster kid and gerson first key scale to sans). Frisk needs LS updated to peak human (ez enough) and sans needs ap updated. Im incapable of editing soooo, tell me when you guys are done.

 

[Psychomaster35]

You’ll have to wait until the calculations get accepted before applying, though