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A couple undertale upgrades

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First sans should likely be 9-C or 9-B from his feat of snapping a tree branch. Its likely that he did this by stepping on it and teleporting from how its broken in two areas. Additionally the two areas of damage are separated by 9/10 pixels? while sans feet in his sprite are separated by 9 as well to back it up further.The branch flakes a little when snapped and its a from a dark and tall tree that you see in the background (looks like spruce).

Lifting strength: This is just for frisk pushing rocks through the ruins. Think ive seen it get calced as either athletic or peak human which is an upgrade.
(I cant make calcs because ummmmm..... no fandom account >_<)
 
First sans should likely be 9-C or 9-B from his feat of snapping a tree branch. Its likely that he did this by stepping on it and teleporting from how its broken in two areas. Additionally the two areas of damage are separated by 9/10 pixels? while sans feet in his sprite are separated by 9 as well to back it up further.The branch flakes a little when snapped and its a from a dark and tall tree that you see in the background (looks like spruce).
Many IRL children can snap tree branches
Why should snapping this one that way be 9-C or 9-B?

I mean, even if he did break it in 2 places at once.... Maybe if we're assuming he violently fragmented the pieces of wood that broke?
Or it was a very thick or strong type of wood?
Anyone know the stats for spruce wood?

I guess it may have been frozen, given how Snowdin appears? (Although, Snowdin has running water rivers, so IDK. Maybe the stick is frozen? Or not?)
Lifting strength: This is just for frisk pushing rocks through the ruins. Think ive seen it get calced as either athletic or peak human which is an upgrade.
(I cant make calcs because ummmmm..... no fandom account >_<)
Unsure LS is a basis for AP, but if Frisk doesn't have that LS on their profile, I'd be a little concerned.
 
I don't know Sans's actual shoe size, so....
....As a means of rough estimation, my own foot is like, 8 cm across at the middle. Sans, being a skeleton, might have smaller feet because no flesh. So for the amount of stick he stepped on & thus broke, maybe 6 cm across, 2 cm thick?

18.8495559 cm3

Since that's for 1 part of the stick that 1 of 2 feet broke, double that.
37.6991118 cm3

Fragmentation: 37.6991118 cm3 * 2.9647 joules per cubic centimeter = 111.76655675346 joules
Violent Fragmentation: 37.6991118 cm3 * 6.6879 joules per cubic centimeter = 252.12788980722 joules.
Pulverization: 37.6991118 cm3 * 35.7148 joules per cubic centimeter = 1,346.41623811464 joules.

The 1st 2 results are 10-A, Athlete Level, the 3rd is over four times as high as Street Level's (9-C's) Baseline.
That said....
unknown.png

....Frankly, I'm uncertain it's even Violently Fragmented where it was broken. Fragmented where it was broken, most likely, but the pixel art doesn't make the level of damage clear.
Violent Fragmentation is uncertain, Pulverization seems like too much of an unfounded assumption. Sans did not accidentally turn a stick into a fine grain by stepping on it. Maybe it was broken into small pieces.

If there's a case for Violent Fragmentation, I'd hear it, but Fragmentation seems plausible. (Although, both Fragmentation & Violent Fragmentation end up as 10-A, with regular Fragmentation being barely above baseline.)
Maybe it'd be higher if Sans's feet/"feet-bones"(?) end up being a different size, or the stick is frozen, but I seriously doubt the latter, since Snowdin has running water rivers & the stick doesn't LOOK frozen.
 
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Lot to read already um... Well snapping a fairly big tree branch (which is noted to be tough in game) quickly i woulda thought would be 9-C or at most low wall level...

Unsure LS is a basis for AP, but if Frisk doesn't have that LS on their profile, I'd be a little concerned.
I meant athletic to peak human lifting strength for frisk

Ah i see. I definitely disagree with pulv. And the dialogue notes it as a tough and heavy looking branch. The wiki also treats snowdin as mega cold since "its snow can survive in the hotlands" (even though that sounds more like magical properties) so whether you wanna take it as frozen or not im neutral on.
I guessed spruce because dark, tall, associated with snowey conditions.
 
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Lot to read already um... Well snapping a fairly big tree branch (which is noted to be tough in game) quickly i woulda thought would be 9-C or at most low wall level...
Well, keep in mind, I didn't do any actual measuring of how much stick was broken or what size Sans's feet bones are, so that could affect the result.
Also, is spruce wood a notably tough or durable or hard kind of wood? If not, maybe it's a different kind of wood? But if it isn't spruce wood, then which kind?
I meant athletic to peak human lifting strength for frisk
Athletic Human begins at 120 kg. I'd be surprised if a stick that size probably weighed that much.
Ah i see. I definitely disagree with pulv. And the dialogue notes it as a tough and heavy looking branch. The wiki also treats snowdin as mega cold since "its snow can survive in the hotlands" (even though that sounds more like magical properties) so whether you wanna take it as frozen or not im neutral on.
I guessed spruce because dark, tall, associated with snowey conditions.
"Spruce wood has a hardness rating of 510 lbf (2,268 N) which is relatively lower than most of the woods"

Let's look at some of the "Hard Woods" the Calculation page lists to see if any of them come from dark, tall trees likely to grow in snowy conditions.

If you'd like to help out, feel free. I'll probably make my next post if & when I've gone over the types of wood.
 
Athletic Human begins at 120 kg. I'd be surprised if a stick that size probably weighed that much.
Ahhhh nono. I meant frisks lifting strength is higher from a different feat in the ruins of pushing rocks. Different from sans feat, might wanna read the op again for that.
 
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Ahhhh nono. I meant frisks lifting strength is higher from a different feat in the ruins of pushing rocks. Different from sans feat, might wanna read the op again for that.
What? What part of my post was responding to that?
 
Black ash is a tree most commonly found in deep swamps. Occasionally, though, it's found mixed with other hardwoods in moist, cold forests. Its wood is heavy, rather soft, tough, coarse-grained, and is used for hoops, chair bottoms, and baskets.
Image of trunk
White ash trees (Fraxinus americana) are native to the eastern United States and Canada, ranging naturally from Nova Scotia to Minnesota, Texas, and Florida.

Birch, Paper doesn't seem to be a candidate, because their trunks are white.

Cherry, Black? Probably not. They can grow in cold climates, if I understand what I need right, but the trees in UT don't seem like fruiting trees.

Cottonwood, Balsam Poplar?
Cottonwoods need a location with full sun and lots of moisture. They grow particularly well along lakes and rivers as well as in marshy areas. The trees prefer sandy or silty soil, but will tolerate most anything but heavy clay. They are hardy in USDA plant hardiness zones 2 through 9.
Seems unlikely.

Elm, Rock?
Rock elm (Ulmus thomasii), often called cork elm because of the irregular thick corky wings on older branches, is a medium-sized to large tree that grows best on moist loamy soils in southern Ontario, lower Michigan, and Wisconsin. It may also be found on dry uplands, especially rocky ridges and limestone bluffs.

Rock elm (also known as cork elm) is a hardwood tree that is a native to Canada and the northeastern United States. The highest quality lumber is found at mills in north central Wisconsin, lower Michigan, and southeastern Ontario.

....Maybe?

Maple, Black?
Seems unlikely. Trunk often seems white or gray, not necessarily black.
Maple, Red?
"Red Maple. The red maple is usually a medium-sized tree with a moderate growth rate. The bark is smooth and light gray on young- and intermediate-aged stems, while mature bark is dark gray and rough. Crushed twigs do not emit a rank odor as does the silver maple."
The UT Trees seem to be brown, not gray, so these seem unlikely.
Maple, Sugar?
"Young sugar maples (Acer saccharum) have blotchy gray bark with patches of white, while young Norway maple bark (Acer platanoides) can vary from brown to gray."
"The twigs of the Sugar Maple are glossy and reddish brown. The buds are brown and sharp; the buds are slender and pointed down. The bark of the Sugar Maple is smooth and gray when the tree is young, becoming irregularly furrowed, scaly, and dark gray on older trees."
Probably not.
Maybe?
Oak, Black?
https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_1602.JPG
Maybe?
Oak, Chestnut?
"The thick bark segments of an adult tree are divided by deep crevices that grow bigger as the tree gets older. Its colour ranges from dark grey to brown to black with rounded, scaly ridges."
Maybe?
Oak, Live?
"Live oak tree bark is a dark to light grayish color and becomes darker with age."
Probably not, not brown.
Oak, Post?
The leaves tend to be leathery and feature cross-shaped lobes. Post oak bark is brown rather than gray and has shallow cracks that create the look of rectangular boxes.
Right colour, however, it doesn't seem to grow in cold climates much:
"The range of post oak extends from southeastern Massachusetts, Rhode Island, southern Connecticut and extreme southeastern New York (including Long Island); west to southeastern Pennsylvania and West Virginia, central Ohio, southern Indiana, central Illinois, southeastern Iowa and Missouri; south to eastern Kansas, western Oklahoma, northwestern and central Texas; and east to central Florida (10)."
Oak, Northern Red?
"Bark on young trees is smooth and grey with some lighter vertical lines."
Seems to be the wrong colour.
Oak, White?
White oak trees have bark that is off-whitish to ashy gray in color. It can be very scaly and platelike. Older trees often have patches of nearly smooth bark.
Wrong colour.
Sycamore, American?
Sycamore tree bark: American sycamore tree bark is reddish-brown that peels off in long strips. The irregular mottling on the tree reveals white or gray bark underneath. This bark’s “camouflage” effect allows for easy identification.
The UT trees are too uniformly brown & there's no sign of the peeling distinctive to American Sycamores.
Walnut, Black?
The bark is dark gray to brown, sometimes almost black, and deeply furrowed. Black Walnut is native to hardwood forests of eastern North America, but the trees often grow around old homesites where they were once planted.
Can apparently grow throughout much of Canada, being tolerant to hardiness zone 3, so it can handle minimum temperatures of -40F to -30F. Walnut trees in general, can handle it being pretty cold, apparently?
Willow, Black?
The bark is deeply furrowed, dark grey/brown tending to plated in old trees. Leaves are long, lanceolate, finely serrated, broad at the base, tapering to a long point, dark green above, duller green below.
Maybe?
Yellow, Poplar?
Yellow poplar bark is smooth and green on immature trees. As the tulip poplar tree matures, the bark develops orangey-brown fissures and flat plates. In time, the bark becomes dark gray with deep furrows running vertically up the straight tree trunk.
Probably not.


There we go.
So yeah, opinion on the candidates?
 
Was thinking of some dark pine tree but, with the description of heavy as well as the rest. Black ash seems to be the best bet.

You could try calcing it in a blog and scaling the stick to frisks height would be best (since sans feet probably arent normal)
Also you could calc frisk pushing the rocks in the ruins if you want.
 
Was thinking of some dark pine tree but, with the description of heavy as well as the rest. Black ash seems to be the best bet.

You could try calcing it in a blog and scaling the stick to frisks height would be best (since sans feet probably arent normal)
Also you could calc frisk pushing the rocks in the ruins if you want.
Good to know. Maybe someone can help with that. I'm a little bit busy AtM, though.

You may wish to attempt to use the Calculations Request Thread.
 
Edited my already existing request there but. Using ash black wood from the calculation page and your values

Frag 37.6991118 * 5.2400 J/cc = 197.543345832 J (Athlete level)
V Frag 37.6991118 * 10.8248 J/cc = 408.08534541264 J (Street level)
 
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Frisk wasnt unable to break it. He just couldnt lift it or at least take it with him (weird if he could push those rocks around but oh well!)
Sans did it extremely quickly too which makes it impressive
 
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Many IRL children can snap tree branches
Why should snapping this one that way be 9-C or 9-B?

I mean, even if he did break it in 2 places at once.... Maybe if we're assuming he violently fragmented the pieces of wood that broke?
Or it was a very thick or strong type of wood?
Anyone know the stats for spruce wood?

I guess it may have been frozen, given how Snowdin appears? (Although, Snowdin has running water rivers, so IDK. Maybe the stick is frozen? Or not?)

Unsure LS is a basis for AP, but if Frisk doesn't have that LS on their profile, I'd be a little concerned.
Its a large tree branch, but I think this guy must be on cocaine or something to think its 9-B
 
Aw come on. I thought if table splitting is somehow over 20 times wall level then it mightve been possible >_<
 
Wouldn’t Frisk have logically stepped over the branch and not break it? Otherwise, if Frisk really couldn’t break it, it sounds more like an upgrade for Sans to scale to low-tier enemies
 
Nothing hinted at frisk being unable to break it beyond lifting and calling it tough. Frisk just walks over it normally and sans deliberately breaks it. Frisk wasnt exactly aiming to do so.
 
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@Psychomaster35 So. Would you be willing to do those two calcs with whats been given?

Edit: Thank you. Wont be able to comment on the blogs because....... fandom account dead reasons. But ill review anything here.
 
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Well it... looks like i mightve been right.... 3000cm cubed? Ill get someone to evaluate it when i get time if nobody does by the time i get home.
 
@Psychomaster35 ah okay i see one thing you did wrong. You added the two parts of the stick that are broken. You should try calcing them individually instead since sans broke them seperately with each foot.
 
So street+ now. Funny enough i have done a calc before that made sans bone attacks street+ to wall level in ke. Seems okay anyway. Just needs some approval and for frisk and sans to be unlocked. Monster kid and gerson first key also scale.
 
First sans should likely be 9-C or 9-B from his feat of snapping a tree branch. Its likely that he did this by stepping on it and teleporting from how its broken in two areas.
No evidence of that.
Additionally the two areas of damage are separated by 9/10 pixels? while sans feet in his sprite are separated by 9 as well to back it up further.The branch flakes a little when snapped and its a from a dark and tall tree that you see in the background (looks like spruce).
That is not evidence that he did by stepping on it.
Lifting strength: This is just for frisk pushing rocks through the ruins. Think ive seen it get calced as either athletic or peak human which is an upgrade.
(I cant make calcs because ummmmm..... no fandom account >_<)
I agree
 
To be more clear. Disagree on giving Sans 9-C+ physical for a feat we literally do not see him doing.

Agree with LS upgrade for Frisk. Unless more clear evidence is provided, I am 100% against the first thing.
 
No evidence of that.
That is not evidence that he did by stepping on it.
The damage to the branch is done in two areas exactly where his feet would have been placed is the point im making with the design and the whole scene was supposed to be hinting at somebody unknown walking around which is why it appears that way. Its mostly just occams razor and intent.
I can do this, if ya want.
I partly disagree with this.
Psycho already did the calc for it, it was peak human.
 
The damage to the branch is done in two areas exactly where his feet would have been placed is the point im making with the design and the whole scene was supposed to be hinting at somebody unknown walking around which is why it appears that way. Its mostly just occams razor and intent.
That is still insufficient evidence for a physical feat. Occams Razor isn't applicable here, the points you presented aren't exclusively pointing towards a physical stomp on the branch. (And playing Devil's Advocate, if he stepped into a thick branch to the point where it breaks, the pieces would be wildly spread out, far beyond just his feet)

"Design, Intent, It's supposed to be X, Y, Z."
Death of the Author. It could also be a hint to Sans' Gravity Manipulation. My guess is as good as yours.


So nope, I still wholeheartedly disagree with this. It's simply not enough even for a "possibly" rating.
 
Sans gravity manipulation is used to change peoples directions, throw things and slam them around and is never used to directly destroy anything. Theres no way he could break the stick with that without moving it from its position. The pieces would be even more spread out than where he just stomped on it. P there are small pieces of the shattered branch spread out. Even shattering a branch like that with your feet irl would show the same results, though with more debris in between (unless that got buried under snow idk)

You could say he did it with his bone attacks, though it would be a bit more difficult to use it like that, plus his bone sprites are wider than those holes iirc, plus his attack and defence match meaning bones would scale to durability.

Almost no other way hes able to break it like that, combine with the scene deliberately showing it as a branch that has been broken from being destroyed in two places separated at between leg distance and sans teleporting around, combine with the effect being the same as if you heavily stomped on a branch realistically means he stepped on it (aka physical stomp) under occams razor (simplest answer with least assumptions made). You havent explained why occams razor doesnt apply or much of why thats not sufficient evidence.

I can kinda understand if you wanna say his striking strength might not scale. But not even being a possibly rating is ridiculous with all the indications.
 
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So what does anyone else think? I think teleporting to the branch and leaving broken areas from his feet seems more reasonable though im not completely against the idea of just his magic (and likely dura as well) scaling (or not willing to debate it 4long)
 
@Psychomaster35 ah okay i see one thing you did wrong. You added the two parts of the stick that are broken. You should try calcing them individually instead since sans broke them seperately with each foot.
Pardon my asking, please, but why was adding the 2 parts of the stick that are broken incorrect to do there?

I think it's plausible that Sans did break the stick; Stepping on a stick alerting those nearby is a common trope in fiction, so I think it's likely the intent of the scene was Sans did step on the stick.
But it's a littke bit of a weird feat for AP, since it seems likely accidental. You don't just "accidentally" break a stick in 2 places while trying to be stealthy, in large part because that seems to be very deliberately doing something counterproductive to one's goal of stealth. & I don't know if there's evidence that Sans could've... "telefragged" the stick with his feet-bones.

So I'm a little on the fence about the feat. It seems like it could've happened, but I'm not sure why it did. & it's not like Sans goes around using his feetbones to kick people.
 
I mean... sans pranks people a lot so he could very well just be trynna spook frisk.
 
Sans gravity manipulation is used to change peoples directions, throw things and slam them around and is never used to directly destroy anything. Theres no way he could break the stick with that without moving it from its position. The pieces would be even more spread out than where he just stomped on it. P there are small pieces of the shattered branch spread out. Even shattering a branch like that with your feet irl would show the same results, though with more debris in between (unless that got buried under snow idk)

You could say he did it with his bone attacks, though it would be a bit more difficult to use it like that, plus his bone sprites are wider than those holes iirc, plus his attack and defence match meaning bones would scale to durability.
He literally damaged a 9-A with it, it is an entirely plausible alternative.
Almost no other way hes able to break it like that.
That doesn't automatically make your suggestion the most likely to be true. There ARE more than one way he could do it, we just didn't see it, therefore it's impossible for you to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
combine with the scene deliberately showing it as a branch that has been broken from being destroyed in two places separated at between leg distance
"leg distance", a stomp with the intent of breaking a branch would make it go way further, this is not evidence. Bone and Gravity can accomplish the same thing.
and sans teleporting around, combine with the effect being the same as if you heavily stomped on a branch realistically means he stepped on it (aka physical stomp) under occams razor (simplest answer with least assumptions made). You havent explained why occams razor doesnt apply or much of why thats not sufficient evidence.
How does one explain insufficiency further than the word itself?
It is not sufficient because NONE of the evidence you provide even HINTS to a physical stomp, and Sans literally never does anything similar to this throughout the whole game.
It is not Occam's Razor to say he stomping the branch, because monsters, creatures of magic and very weak in terms of physical prowess, are more likely to use magic than to physically stomp something.

Sans using magic would fall more onto Occam's Razor given the context, and furthermore, Hitchen's Razor also plays a role here.
But not even being a possibly rating is ridiculous with all the indications.
"All the" - Why do people insist in wording situations like they have an abundant amount of evidence or indications?
You've shown one indication, and made a very significant leap of logic to link both things ("the pixels between the pieces are similar to the amount of pixel's Sans feet have, therefore stomp"? For real?)

Sorry, but what I'm seeing here is scarce evidence at best.

Again, I disagree profusely that Sans did this with a physical attack. That doesn't fit the character, nor does it fit his race, and he has other means of doing so. That's an Undyne-kind of thing to do.
 
under occams razor (simplest answer with least assumptions made)
"He stomped the branch"
Assumptions:
  • Sans is physically capable of doing so
  • Sans would opt to do so
  • Sans did it intentionally (he couldn't have done accidentally otherwise it'd be through sheer weight)
"He used magic to break the branch"
Assumptions:
  • Sans is capable of doing so with magic (verifiable truth, therefore not an assumption)
  • Sans would opt to use magic
  • Sans did it intentionally

Occam's Razor is not in your favor, at all.
 
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