8-B Tournament Round 1, Match 3: Kanoh Agito vs Ken Kaneki

[LordGinSama]

Black-Reaper Kaneki has regeneration?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Black-Reaper Kaneki has regeneration?

Low-mid regen, yes. This is his Post Cochlea key.

 

[LordGinSama]

Low-Mid is nice but Agito can counter it via resorting to KO'ing such as a Dragon Shot to the chin to bounce his brain around in his skull, blood and air chokeholds to suffocate him, and Formless hard counter's Kaneki's Prediction and Information analysis. As good as Kaneki is he isn't keeping up with the likes of Kanoh in close quarters, and unlike Kaneki Kanoh's Prediction will be working in full effect and along with his massive skill advantage and his own RPL allowing him to evolve similarly to Garou, his also allows him to come up with counters to his opponent out of thin air.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Low-Mid is nice but Agito can counter it via resorting to KO'ing such as a Dragon Shot to the chin to bounce his brain around in his skull, blood and air chokeholds to suffocate him, and Formless hard counter's Kaneki's Prediction and Information analysis. As good as Kaneki is he isn't keeping up with the likes of Kanoh in close quarters, and unlike Kaneki Kanoh's Prediction will be working in full effect and along with his massive skill advantage and his own RPL allowing him to evolve similarly to Garou, his also allows him to come up with counters to his opponent out of thin air.

I'll count your vote when the AP value for Kaneki is given.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Kaneki have better range with his Kagune and chokehold is not a option when he got Class M lifting strength. More so, KO is unlikely to happened with Kaneki's extremely high pain tolerance and type 2 Immortality. Low-Mid is important too as he can regen limbs in secs and brain damage to a certain.

While i don't doubt Agito as the one with better skills, Kaneki are completely different compared to rest of fighters he has ever faced. You can see two of this fights for example, the Kagune are game-changing element which take Agito off his usual brawl. Agito could likely predict the trajectory of them and come up with some kind of strategy around that but he also have to figure how to take out Kaneki for good.

I take that Agito isn't gonna have it easy this time but i will wait for more argument.

 

[LordGinSama]

Kaneki have better range with his Kagune

Irrelevant whenever Kanoh has potent Analytical Prediction.

and chokehold is not a option when he got Class M lifting strength.

Lifting Strength isn't taken into consideration whenever someone has their neck's being strangled. Agito isn't matching his LS with Kaneki via means of overpowering the latter, and with Kanoh's overwhelming skill advantage I doubt Kaneki could figure out a way to break free from Kanoh placing him in a choke-hold and attacking him simultaneously with kicks and knees from point plank, forcing Kaneki to use his hands to block.


Kanoh is a master at forming countermeasures against opponents who are stronger than himself. Cosmo's LS was below Ohma's yet he can still grapple them out of sheer skill alone.

More so, KO is unlikely to happened with Kaneki's extremely high pain tolerance and type 2 Immortality.

None of which prevent a KO from happening, Kanoh has already fought against opponents with extreme pain tolerance and has it himself. Type 2 is limited by his regeneration, a Dragon's Shot aimed at the chin would cause major damage to the brain due to it being a Fa Jin which also causes internal damage.

Low-Mid is important too as he can regen limbs in secs and brain damage to a certain.

He doesn't recover from brain damage, it almost killed him in canon and took place in a long time frame so that isn't combat applicable. Kanoh again already has ways around this, in the form of damaging the brain via repeated strikes to vitals on the head, and a Dragon Shot which one shot the much stronger 100% Guihun Lu Tain flying meters into the air while also utilizing the Fa Jin principles which targets vitals and strikes to the chin cause severe brain damage.

While i don't doubt Agito as the one with better skills, Kaneki are completely different compared to rest of fighters he has ever faced.

This is true but this isn't the first time he's been surprised before and considering his Prediction allows him to read up to 10+ moves ahead and his entire style revolving around countering his opponents he'll likely be able to find a way around this.

You can see two of this fights for example, the Kagune are game-changing element which take Agito off his usual brawl. Agito could likely predict the trajectory of them and come up with some kind of strategy around that but he also have to figure how to take out Kaneki for good.

Agito isn't an idiot, after awhile he'd figure out the current damage hes causing isn't enough to put Kaneki down, and with Kanoh's extensive knowledge on anatomy he'd go for the head. Breaking the neck, choking, eye gouging, etc. Armia could react to them and unlike Kanoh he doesn't have Prediction that let's him read 10+ moves ahead of time.


Also Formless is something that would likely throw Kaneki off due to it's unpredictable nature, even those with Analytical Prediction can hardly understand any of the Formless moves.

I take that Agito isn't gonna have it easy this time but i will wait for more argument.

It will definitely shake him at first without a doubt.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@LordGinSama

How does range are irrelevant against Analytical Prediction?

Which is unlikely since Kagune could do the opposite via Class M, it would be like a normal person trying to escape a bear hug.

Trying KO someone who survived all his limbs dismembered and broken bones is very unlikely. Heavily damage to the brain is required.

Agito's prediction is good but Kaneki are different from what he have seen before. Kagune can bend and attack from multiple different angle, Agito would need to predict Kaneki + Kagune movement at the same time, despite his incredible skills, human physiology limits wouldn't allow him to counter all of them.

Yeah, Kaneki would be confused by Formless but he still can stick around what he has. If he see that he can't win in H2H then he just simply keep Agito at bay with Kagune.

 

[LordGinSama]

@LordGinSama

How does range are irrelevant against Analytical Prediction?

Because Agito will see it coming before it happens giving him room to close the gap or dodge.

Which is unlikely since Kagune could do the opposite via Class M, it would be like a normal person trying to escape a bear hug.

Agito can dodge the Kagune and counter attack, again his class M is irrelevant whenever his opponent has him beat in leaps and bounds in terms of grappling.

Trying KO someone who survived all his limbs dismembered and broken bones is very unlikely. Heavily damage to the brain is required.

That's Low-Mid, Low-Mid doesn't make you immune to KO's that Mid. If you think Kaneki should have mid regeneration then make a CRT.

Kaneki almost died from 2 stab wounds to the brain, Agito can continue to shake it instead his head and he'd get knocked out.

Agito's prediction is good but Kaneki are different from what he have seen before. Kagune can bend and attack from multiple different angle, Agito would need to predict Kaneki + Kagune movement at the same time, despite his incredible skills, human physiology limits wouldn't allow him to counter all of them.

Agito's Foresight scales to Gensai's who's prediction can do just that. Predicting attacks that come from multiple angels, matter of fact both Kanoh and Gensai are stated to have no blind spot so that's irrelevant and fasle.

Yeah, Kaneki would be confused by Formless but he still can stick around what he has. If he see that he can't win in H2H then he just simply keep Agito at bay with Kagune.

In which case Agito just goes after him.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Grappling are irrelevant if Kaneki have far more chance in LS, he also have pretty good acrobatic feats as well. Agito wouldn't able to predict Kagune at first so that is a plus.

I never said Kaneki should have Mid regen but taken down type 2 Immortality are very difficult, especially with someone who only use fists like Agito. Assuming Agito can gouge his brain out in one-hit, Kaneki is not going down easily.

It's the truth to a certain, i know Agito have inhuman level of skills but he cannot always block tentacles that can strangle him or move in flexiable ways that act both offensively and defensively.

 

[Yoyco]

Kaneki FRA, but would like to know what Kaneki's AP is exactly on here. Just to get a better grasp on their standings

Grappling is basically suicide for Agito here, as that basically leaves him defenseless to Kaneki's kagune. Range + multiple limbs coming from different angles at the same time, almost makes this impossible for Agito to get up close properly or defend properly for that matter. Kaneki's other abilities are just huge pluses that add to the large gap Agito has to cross.

 

[LordGinSama]

Will respond to these later.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Based on this, Eto did a 17.4 tons feat and Kaneki was able to tear her Kakuja in a single attack. It's should be noted that Kakuja are basically armor that increases their durability so he would scales above said feat.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Voting Kaneki. His AP > Eto’s Kakuja >> 17.4 tons which is comparable to Agito’s own stats, Low-Mid and Type 2 make actually putting him down really hard short of brain damage or choking him out. The latter doesn’t really work as Kaneki’s LS is far higher than Agito’s and putting him in a chokehold isn’t a good thing since his Kagune comes from his back which will skewer Agito. This is also only in the event Agito manages to get passed the considerable range advantage Kaneki has with his Rinkaku, four limbs that Agito wouldn’t be able to predict as it’s something far beyond what he has had to deal with before (unless a martial arts manga had someone with half a dozen meter long, prehensile arms that didn’t have bones and could bend in whatever way the user felt like).

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Based on this, Eto did a 17.4 tons feat and Kaneki was able to tear her Kakuja in a single attack. It's should be noted that Kakuja are basically armor that increases their durability so he would scales above said feat.

And Agito scales to 16 tons and can one shot people stronger than him with Dragon Shot. Fairly even in terms of AP.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Alright. 3 for Kaneki and 1 for Agito.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Nice debate, everyone.

 

[Sonicflare9]

ken fra

 

[Jamesthetaker]

And Agito scales to 16 tons and can one shot people stronger than him with Dragon Shot. Fairly even in terms of AP.

So they are almost comparable in AP, Kaneki's Kakuja also increases his own durability as well.

 

[Sero]

Kanaki fra (i did not expect this)

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Kanaki fra (i did not expect this)

you will not make the history of this math?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Kanaki fra (i did not expect this)

When you making the story?

 

[Sero]

When you making the story?

OH YEA- FUDGE I FORGOT IT WAS MY TURN....but i got class....SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

 

[Popted2]

Kaneki FRA

what are the votes?

 

[Sero]

you will not make the history of this math?

I can try, i'm not super familier on Both characters (especially Konah) so i have really no idea how to write them.....but i'll see what i can do

 

[Rez]

That's Low-Mid, Low-Mid doesn't make you immune to KO's that Mid. If you think Kaneki should have mid regeneration then make a CRT.

Kaneki almost died from 2 stab wounds to the brain, Agito can continue to shake it instead his head and he'd get knocked out.

That's not low mid it's his type 2 immortality at this point Kaneki was in no condition to regen properly

And no Kaneki didn't almost die from just two stabs to his brain before fighting Arima he fought against Amon and some random ccg people he was badly out of stamina even before the battle began. Also it wasn't just two stab wounds to brain. Arima absolutely dominated Kaneki he was receiving multiple fatal wounds and fought the majority of battle with half his brain gone he wasn't even regenerating properly because of Arima's quinque negging his regen

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Kanaka for reasons above

 

[Rez]

Kanaka for reasons above

Ah who?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Ah who?

Idk the guy cero picked

 

[Rez]

Idk the guy cero picked

So kaneki

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Kanaka for reasons above

Grace

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

So kaneki

same thing.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

If Kanoh doesn't get 4 or 5 votes by 12:00 tomorrow (at least where I live), then Kaneki (along with Sero), will move on to round 2.

 

[Rez]

Voting kaneki too fra

 

[LordGinSama]

Grappling are irrelevant if Kaneki have far more chance in LS, he also have pretty good acrobatic feats as well. Agito wouldn't able to predict Kagune at first so that is a plus.

At first =/= at all, and Ken's Acrobatics are useless here due to Kanoh being able to take up one's personal space, topped with his extremely aggressive fighting style it would definitely be hard for Kaneki to escape from Kanoh's range. Kaneki tries to pull back and Kanoh will know what he's trying to do before it even happens.

I never said Kaneki should have Mid regen but taken down type 2 Immortality are very difficult, especially with someone who only use fists like Agito. Assuming Agito can gouge his brain out in one-hit, Kaneki is not going down easily.

Agito's attacks can replicate and mimic cutting and piercing based attacks.

It's the truth to a certain, i know Agito have inhuman level of skills but he cannot always block tentacles that can strangle him or move in flexiable ways that act both offensively and defensively.

He doesn't need to block them, as per SBA he has plenty of room to take cover and use the environment to his advantage. Much less skilled characters such as Armia could react to Kaneki's range attacks so they obviously nearly aren't as "unpredictable." as people think.

Based on this, Eto did a 17.4 tons feat and Kaneki was able to tear her Kakuja in a single attack. It's should be noted that Kakuja are basically armor that increases their durability so he would scales above said feat.

Eto wasn't in her Ghoul Form at the time when he one shot her, so she wouldn't scale to the full value due to being weaker. Omega Kanoh scales above 16 tons and can one shot characters stronger than himself via Dragon Shot.

Voting Kaneki. His AP > Eto’s Kakuja >> 17.4 tons which is comparable to Agito’s own stats, Low-Mid and Type 2 make actually putting him down really hard short of brain damage or choking him out.

Kanoh's AP scales above 16 tons and can one shot vastly stronger opponents such as 100% removal Lu Tain. Also disagree with Eto being >>> 17 tons whenever she got her 8-B whilst in her strongest form.

The latter doesn’t really work as Kaneki’s LS is far higher than Agito’s and putting him in a chokehold isn’t a good thing since his Kagune comes from his back which will skewer Agito.

Agito has the skill to choke him out in less than a few seconds, scaling his grappling above the likes of Okubo it would only take a moment and due to Formless's unpredictable nature Kaneki wouldn't be able to escape without the aid of his Kagune which Agito can just dodge with Foresight.

This is also only in the event Agito manages to get passed the considerable range advantage Kaneki has with his Rinkaku, four limbs that Agito wouldn’t be able to predict as it’s something far beyond what he has had to deal with before (unless a martial arts manga had someone with half a dozen meter long, prehensile arms that didn’t have bones and could bend in whatever way the user felt like).

Again the range isn't an issue as Agito can take cover or predict Kaneki's moves before they even happen. And that's all irrelevant as Kanoh is literally seeing the opponent's moves before they happen, up to 10 moves in advance. And while I agree it would take him off balance at the first time it wouldn't take him much effort to predict them, as Kaneki is still giving off intent, muscle movement, and still gives off a trajectory all of which Kanoh can read instantly. Also there are already freaks like that in the form of Bando Yohei who Hatsumi Sen could react to without any Foresight. And Kanoh's Foresight is comparable to Gensai's which can work on those with resistance to Analytical Prediction.



So far I haven't seen how Kaneki is dealing with Formless which is something he'd hardly be able to comprehend.

 

[LordGinSama]

That's not low mid it's his type 2 immortality at this point Kaneki was in no condition to regen properly

And he was still left incapacitated, your point being? Literally proves nothing.

And no Kaneki didn't almost die from just two stabs to his brain before fighting Arima he fought against Amon and some random ccg people he was badly out of stamina even before the battle began.

Which is again irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Even if he weren't tired you'd still get the same result, Kaneki cannot regenerate damage dealt to his brain in such a fashion.

Also it wasn't just two stab wounds to brain. Arima absolutely dominated Kaneki he was receiving multiple fatal wounds and fought the majority of battle with half his brain gone he wasn't even regenerating properly because of Arima's quinque negging his regen

Saying half his brain was gone is definitely being generous. And the other damage is irrelevant, I'm talking about him getting his brain damaged and nothing else. And if Armia could destroy Kaneki in CQC, reacting and dodging all of his strikes then I see no reason why someone vastly more skilled than him wouldn't be able to do the same thing.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The result really changes depending on which personality of Kanoh is being used

 

[Rez]

And he was still left incapacitated, your point being? Literally proves nothing.

Wasn't talking about the arima fight here

Which is again irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Even if he weren't tired you'd still get the same result, Kaneki cannot regenerate damage dealt to his brain in such a fashion.

Saying half his brain was gone is definitely being generous. And the other damage is irrelevant, I'm talking about him getting his brain damaged and nothing else. And if Armia could destroy Kaneki in CQC, reacting and dodging all of his strikes then I see no reason why someone vastly more skilled than him wouldn't be able to do the same thing.

No Kaneki was not regenerating because of Arima's quinque he even mentions it and Kaneki being out is stamina and receiving multiple fatal wounds (from which he can't regen) is relevant here because in normal circumstances like this vs battle it won't be an issue.

And arima wasn't just more skilled at this point he also had a considerable ap and speed advantage too

 

[Rez]

By considerable ap advantage I mean Kaneki was 8-C meanwhile Arima was at least 8-B at that point in the story

 

[LordGinSama]

The result really changes depending on which personality of Kanoh is being used

Omega so level headed and able to perfectly combine martial arts and Formless.

Wasn't talking about the arima fight here

Ah.

No Kaneki was not regenerating because of Arima's quinque he even mentions it and Kaneki being out is stamina and receiving multiple fatal wounds (from which he can't regen) is relevant here because in normal circumstances like this vs battle it won't be an issue.

I never said his regeneration wasn't negated, what I'm saying is that even with that being the case he still can't regenerate damage dealt to his brain in the same way he can with his limbs.

And arima wasn't just more skilled at this point he also had a considerable ap and speed advantage too

Iirc Formless of Martial Arts is a speed amp.

By considerable ap advantage I mean Kaneki was 8-C meanwhile Arima was at least 8-B at that point in the story

Kaneki should either scale or this should be an outlier, no way a 8-C with Low Mid is surviving a brain gouging attack from a 8-B .

 

[Rez]

I never said his regeneration wasn't negated, what I'm saying is that even with that being the case he still can't regenerate damage dealt to his brain in the same way he can with his limbs.

Yes but he can still fight with considerable brain damage while actually having his regen severely weakned and negated up to a certain extent