2-B KH is a bit bad

[Ayewale]

TL;DR:

• Sora did not significantly affect the Kingdom Hearts
• Young Xehanort most likely created the copy of the Toy Box world via previously-used organization tech
• Sora's Heartless is very likely not 2-C and if it was it'd only scale to Data-Sora
• The verse's new benchmark is either 4-C or 9-B>.

Spoiler: Sora significantly affecting the Kingdom Hearts

More or less every single character and entity in the Kingdom Hearts verse is 2-B due to the entire verse upscaling from Kingdom Hearts 1 Sora, and the specific 2-B feat is this:

Sora's strength of heart, which directly correlates to the one of his Keyblade, significantly affected the KH of Worlds by making it unleash its true power and cause it to vanish shortly after, which sustained an infinite space with its own time axis. The existence of all worlds are tied to the KH of Worlds, which are universes and there's as many as stars

I think the justification for the size of the Kingdom Hearts itself/it's AP is perfectly fine and intuitive, this thread doesn't care for that. The much bigger issue here is that this rating doesn't really make any sense?

The feat being referenced here is this moment from the end of Kingdom Hearts 1, and by itself it hardly suggests that Sora did anything of note here: the door literally just opened a little bit more and Ansem was overwhelmed. The Kingdom Hearts wikis (listed by the vsbw as trusted sources) also say about as much:

• The non-fandom wiki described the Kingdom Hearts as "a tremendously powerful light surrounded by a dark aura". Then the description of the cutscene above is "Ansem forces the door to open, expecting for Kingdom Hearts to fill him with the power of darkness. However, the light of Kingdom Hearts overwhelms him, destroying him." So Sora didn't do shit to the Heart.
• The fandom wiki says "Xehanort's Heartless[Ansem] forced the door to open, hoping for Kingdom Hearts to fill him with the power of darkness. However, Kingdom Hearts was revealed not to be darkness, but light. The light overwhelmed him, destroying him. But even with his defeat, the darkness that surrounded Kingdom Hearts threatened to overwhelm the Realm of Light, with Heartless flocking to it in droves." This too says the same thing: the heart was surrounded by darkness but the light within overwhelmed Ansem. So Sora yet again doesn't do much.

These wikis are pretty comprehensive and the fact that they have almost the exact same reading of events isn't great news for this feat. The only thing that really points towards Sora significantly affecting the heart is a single sentence from the Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania (or at least, one of them...there's at least two, upwards of six books this could be referring to):

"Sora's strength-the bonds with his friends and his continuing belief in light in the depths of darkness-awakens the true power of Kingdom Hearts: the light"

And this has three fairly big issues:

• I can't find any proof that the Memorial Ultimania's are written directly by Tetsuya Nomara, which is pretty important considering this feat is the benchmark for the whole verse.
• More importantly, there's no reason to assume this means that Sora 'significantly affected' the Kingdom Hearts. It seems far more likely to me that the heart's light was simply drawn to Sora due to his belief in said light, not that he affected the entire structure.
  • The way the feat is worded on the wiki is objectively wrong: Sora did not "make it unleash it's true power". It doesn't have a true power, it is light, just one surrounded by darkness.
  • The cutscene points to Sora affecting the Heart by virtually zero amount: we even see that it was the door simply opening to reveal more of the Heart that unleashed the light, not anything Sora was doing.
    • We know for a fact that Sora can't move the door, either. Ansem says directly that he cannot seal the door, and the scene immediately after this is Sora being totally unable to move the door.
      • Notably, we also get to see the Kingdom Hearts itself and...yup! Surrounded by darkness with light in the middle.
      • In any case, moving a door wouldn't scale them to the full power of the Kingdom Hearts.
• What this feat is describing is the power of the X-blade. No, really: the ability to unlock and control the Kingdom Hearts is a power exclusive to it, and is the only justification for it existing. Every single entity in KH scaling to the Kingdom Hearts, as well as sora's random Kingdom Key being able to significantly affect the Kingdom Hearts, would make literally zero sense with Xehanort's motivations.

I think it's fairly clear by now that this 2-B feat is very, very fake and outright plot-destroying, so it shouldn't be used at all, even as a possibly rating for Sora.

Spoiler: Young Xehanort creating a copy of the Toy Box

There's also the feat of Young Xehanort making a copy of an entire world, which falls apart as a rating due to two simple reasons:

• He didn't do it himself. He literally says 'We' in that clip, yet the wiki asserts that he must have done it himself since Jiminy's journal doesn't use a specific pronoun, which apparently takes precedent over Young Xehanort's own mouth. Yeah no, he didn't do it himself.
• More importantly, it possibly wasn't an AP feat, either. His 'we' most likely refers to the Organization, which is a highly scientifically advanced group. Creating a copy of an entire world using off-screen technology would not be out of bounds for them considering they created digital twilight town all the way back in KHII. This is a simulation of a world that's identical to the simulation of worlds found in KHRe:Coded--simulations that we considered to be real and 2-A. Thus, them creating a copy of a real world with their technology is not only possible, but very likely.
• Edit: Even if you ignored the above, we have absolutely zero knowledge of how exactly he (and the others) created the Toy Box copy. There's enough supporting evidence to suggest that, at the very least, there's ways they likely could've done this without AP. So it's too vague to be used.

Spoiler: Re:Coded scaling

The last of the 2-B/2-C ratings comes from from KHRe:Coded, the arguments for which are detailed here. My arguments against them are as follows:

• Data Riku is said to be 'the journal itself', but that's a bit of a misnomer. He's the personification of the journal, yes, but the literal journal itself, and all the worlds in it, undoubtedly no (I mean he's literally walking on and in them?). He also doesn't qualify for Stabilization feats in any way.
  • It's not not entirely accurate. Here's the actual quote:

"Of all the possible vessels to protect the data, I was chosen from the journal's pages. The full set of memories was transferred inside of me to shield them from corruption. So, in a way...what I really am is Jiminy's journal."

• "What I really am is Jiminy's Journal" is a simplification that's not literal at all: he's just the journal's memories, he literally says so verbatim.
• Since this thread already says that Real Sora isn't 2-B, Data Sora's keyblade wouldn't be either.
• Sora's Heartless deleting the Datascape and threatening to destroy the real world too:
  • The fact that the characters use the word 'erase' for nearly every description of this event would heavily suggest that Sora's Heartless threatening the datascape is Existence Erasure and Information Manipulation, not an AP feat. You can still argue it might be AP, but it's good to keep in mind that this already casts doubt on the feat.
  • The blog itself mentions that Sora's Heartless had become much stronger due to absorbing Digital Heartless and destroying the Bug Blox, but it fails to mention that (according to every source I can find) it does this before threatening the Datascape. This is fairly important because it'd mean that the normal form of Sora's Heartless (and Sora too) wouldn't be capable of doing this.
  • Data-Riku says that Sora's Heartless 'is controlling the bugs...making them go crazy'. This heavily suggests that the world being deleted is a byproduct of it affecting the pre-existing bugs in the world. This is emphasized clearer by the fact that Sora's Heartless only wants to consume hearts; it doesn't have any interest in destroying the Datascape itself, that would be a side-effect.
  • The real world being threatened by Sora's Heartless is referring to it consuming hearts. Which is fairly clear by the fact that that's all it does: the world being deleted is a side-effect of the bugs going rampant, not the heart itself physically destroying the data-scape (it would have zero reason whatsoever to do this).
  • The only character that would really scale to this (if you ignore all the evidence against it being universal, which is a lot) would be Data-Sora. Scaling Mickey to it is impossible since he doesn't fight it at all and only draws out the true vessel within. Data Sora would be the only character that scales here, but he wouldn't scale to anyone else in the verse.

As for the question of new scaling:

• Zeus's 4-C star-moving feat seems like another good baseline. Since the events of the movie Hercules are highly likely to mirror KH's history, that would make the Titans scale to Zeus, which would make KH1 Sora scale to Zeus, which means almost everyone is downgraded to High 4-C.
• If we don't accept this scaling then the verse would default to whatever tier Sora slicing through these buildings would be, as every single calculation for the verse above 9-B happens in KH3, then making the KH3 characters vary between 4-C and L1-C depending on the scaling.

Seeing as this will probably be extremely controversial, I implore everyone to minimize shitposting/derailing so that the thread doesn't get to 18 pages.

Agree:
Disagree: Bobsican, NehzXZX, DarkDragonMedeus, DaReaperMan, KLOL56

(I will sleep soon after posting this so do not expect speedy replies)

 

[Nehz_XZX]

TL;DR:

• Sora did not significantly affect the Kingdom Hearts
• Young Xehanort most likely created the copy of the Toy Box world via previously-used organization tech
• Sora's Heartless is very likely not 2-C and if it was it'd only scale to Data-Sora
• The verse's new benchmark is either 4-C or 9-B>.

Spoiler: Sora significantly affecting the Kingdom Hearts

More or less every single character and entity in the Kingdom Hearts verse is 2-B due to the entire verse upscaling from Kingdom Hearts 1 Sora, and the specific 2-B feat is this:

I think the justification for the size of the Kingdom Hearts itself/it's AP is perfectly fine and intuitive, this thread doesn't care for that. The much bigger issue here is that this rating doesn't really make any sense?

The feat being referenced here is this moment from the end of Kingdom Hearts 1, and by itself it hardly suggests that Sora did anything of note here: the door literally just opened a little bit more and Ansem was overwhelmed. The Kingdom Hearts wikis (listed by the vsbw as trusted sources) also say about as much:

• The non-fandom wiki described the Kingdom Hearts as "a tremendously powerful light surrounded by a dark aura". Then the description of the cutscene above is "Ansem forces the door to open, expecting for Kingdom Hearts to fill him with the power of darkness. However, the light of Kingdom Hearts overwhelms him, destroying him." So Sora didn't do shit to the Heart.
• The fandom wiki says "Xehanort's Heartless[Ansem] forced the door to open, hoping for Kingdom Hearts to fill him with the power of darkness. However, Kingdom Hearts was revealed not to be darkness, but light. The light overwhelmed him, destroying him. But even with his defeat, the darkness that surrounded Kingdom Hearts threatened to overwhelm the Realm of Light, with Heartless flocking to it in droves." This too says the same thing: the heart was surrounded by darkness but the light within overwhelmed Ansem. So Sora yet again doesn't do much.

These wikis are pretty comprehensive and the fact that they have almost the exact same reading of events isn't great news for this feat. The only thing that really points towards Sora significantly affecting the heart is a single sentence from the Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania (or at least, one of them...there's at least two, upwards of six books this could be referring to):

And this has three fairly big issues:

• I can't find any proof that the Memorial Ultimania's are written directly by Tetsuya Nomara, which is pretty important considering this feat is the benchmark for the whole verse.
• More importantly, there's no reason to assume this means that Sora 'significantly affected' the Kingdom Hearts. It seems far more likely to me that the heart's light was simply drawn to Sora due to his belief in said light, not that he affected the entire structure.
  • The way the feat is worded on the wiki is objectively wrong: Sora did not "make it unleash it's true power". It doesn't have a true power, it is light, just one surrounded by darkness.
  • The cutscene points to Sora affecting the Heart by virtually zero amount: we even see that it was the door simply opening to reveal more of the Heart that unleashed the light, not anything Sora was doing.
    • We know for a fact that Sora can't move the door, either. Ansem says directly that he cannot seal the door, and the scene immediately after this is Sora being totally unable to move the door.
      • Notably, we also get to see the Kingdom Hearts itself and...yup! Surrounded by darkness with light in the middle.
      • In any case, moving a door wouldn't scale them to the full power of the Kingdom Hearts.
• What this feat is describing is the power of the X-blade. No, really: the ability to unlock and control the Kingdom Hearts is a power exclusive to it, and is the only justification for it existing. Every single entity in KH scaling to the Kingdom Hearts, as well as sora's random Kingdom Key being able to significantly affect the Kingdom Hearts, would make literally zero sense with Xehanort's motivations.

I think it's fairly clear by now that this 2-B feat is very, very fake and outright plot-destroying, so it shouldn't be used at all, even as a possibly rating for Sora.

Spoiler: Young Xehanort creating a copy of the Toy Box

There's also the feat of Young Xehanort making a copy of an entire world, which falls apart as a rating due to two simple reasons:

• He didn't do it himself. He literally says 'We' in that clip, yet the wiki asserts that he must have done it himself since Jiminy's journal doesn't use a specific pronoun, which apparently takes precedent over Young Xehanort's own mouth. Yeah no, he didn't do it himself.
• More importantly, it possibly wasn't an AP feat, either. His 'we' most likely refers to the Organization, which is a highly scientifically advanced group. Creating a copy of an entire world using off-screen technology would not be out of bounds for them considering they created digital twilight town all the way back in KHII. This is a simulation of a world that's identical to the simulation of worlds found in KHRe:Coded--simulations that we considered to be real and 2-A. Thus, them creating a copy of a real world with their technology is not only possible, but very likely.
• Edit: Even if you ignored the above, we have absolutely zero knowledge of how exactly he (and the others) created the Toy Box copy. There's enough supporting evidence to suggest that, at the very least, there's ways they likely could've done this without AP. So it's too vague to be used.

Spoiler: Re:Coded scaling

The last of the 2-B/2-C ratings comes from from KHRe:Coded, the arguments for which are detailed here. My arguments against them are as follows:

• Data Riku is said to be 'the journal itself', but that's a bit of a misnomer. He's the personification of the journal, yes, but the literal journal itself, and all the worlds in it, undoubtedly no (I mean he's literally walking on and in them?). He also doesn't qualify for Stabilization feats in any way.
  • It's not not entirely accurate. Here's the actual quote:

• "What I really am is Jiminy's Journal" is a simplification that's not literal at all: he's just the journal's memories, he literally says so verbatim.
• Since this thread already says that Real Sora isn't 2-B, Data Sora's keyblade wouldn't be either.
• Sora's Heartless deleting the Datascape and threatening to destroy the real world too:
  • The fact that the characters use the word 'erase' for nearly every description of this event would heavily suggest that Sora's Heartless threatening the datascape is Existence Erasure and Information Manipulation, not an AP feat. You can still argue it might be AP, but it's good to keep in mind that this already casts doubt on the feat.
  • The blog itself mentions that Sora's Heartless had become much stronger due to absorbing Digital Heartless and destroying the Bug Blox, but it fails to mention that (according to every source I can find) it does this before threatening the Datascape. This is fairly important because it'd mean that the normal form of Sora's Heartless (and Sora too) wouldn't be capable of doing this.
  • Data-Riku says that Sora's Heartless 'is controlling the bugs...making them go crazy'. This heavily suggests that the world being deleted is a byproduct of it affecting the pre-existing bugs in the world. This is emphasized clearer by the fact that Sora's Heartless only wants to consume hearts; it doesn't have any interest in destroying the Datascape itself, that would be a side-effect.
  • The real world being threatened by Sora's Heartless is referring to it consuming hearts. Which is fairly clear by the fact that that's all it does: the world being deleted is a side-effect of the bugs going rampant, not the heart itself physically destroying the data-scape (it would have zero reason whatsoever to do this).
  • The only character that would really scale to this (if you ignore all the evidence against it being universal, which is a lot) would be Data-Sora. Scaling Mickey to it is impossible since he doesn't fight it at all and only draws out the true vessel within. Data Sora would be the only character that scales here, but he wouldn't scale to anyone else in the verse.

As for the question of new scaling:

• Zeus's 4-C star-moving feat seems like another good baseline. Since the events of the movie Hercules are highly likely to mirror KH's history, that would make the Titans scale to Zeus, which would make KH1 Sora scale to Zeus, which means almost everyone is downgraded to High 4-C.
• If we don't accept this scaling then the verse would default to whatever tier Sora slicing through these buildings would be, as every single calculation for the verse above 9-B happens in KH3, then making the KH3 characters vary between 4-C and L1-C depending on the scaling.

Seeing as this will probably be extremely controversial, I implore everyone to minimize shitposting/derailing so that the thread doesn't get to 18 pages.

Agree:
Disagree:

(I will sleep soon after posting this so do not expect speedy replies)

As someone who had some involvement with the Re:Coded scaling I'd like to note that Data-Sora fought against Sora's Heartless not long after fighting alongside Goofy and Donald and fighting against Maleficent and Pete, so unless you want to suggest and can explain why there was a sudden massive boost in power they would scale as well which would affect the verse as a whole. It should also be noted that all of the bugs except for Sora's Heartless were disposed of with its defeat marking the end of all bugs, so whatever pre-existing bugs in the Datascape it was making use of were all part of Sora's Heartless or at least connected to it and they vanished together with it upon it being destroyed. In addition to that we should pay attention to the fact that Sora's Heartless itself announced that it was going to delete the Datascape which is what alerts everyone to it, so it was very much doing an deliberate effort to do this with Data-Riku saying not long after that that they can't let something that powerful let loose based on nothing but that which makes it clear that this is supposed to signify how strong it is.

 

[Bobsican]

I think the justification for the size of the Kingdom Hearts itself/it's AP is perfectly fine and intuitive, this thread doesn't care for that. The much bigger issue here is that this rating doesn't really make any sense?

The feat being referenced here is this moment from the end of Kingdom Hearts 1, and by itself it hardly suggests that Sora did anything of note here: the door literally just opened a little bit more and Ansem was overwhelmed. The Kingdom Hearts wikis (listed by the vsbw as trusted sources) also say about as much:

• The non-fandom wiki described the Kingdom Hearts as "a tremendously powerful light surrounded by a dark aura". Then the description of the cutscene above is "Ansem forces the door to open, expecting for Kingdom Hearts to fill him with the power of darkness. However, the light of Kingdom Hearts overwhelms him, destroying him." So Sora didn't do shit to the Heart.
• The fandom wiki says "Xehanort's Heartless[Ansem] forced the door to open, hoping for Kingdom Hearts to fill him with the power of darkness. However, Kingdom Hearts was revealed not to be darkness, but light. The light overwhelmed him, destroying him. But even with his defeat, the darkness that surrounded Kingdom Hearts threatened to overwhelm the Realm of Light, with Heartless flocking to it in droves." This too says the same thing: the heart was surrounded by darkness but the light within overwhelmed Ansem. So Sora yet again doesn't do much.

Do I have to explain that wikies on their own aren't proof as they aren't official? The Fandom KH Wiki (aka, the Keyhole) is also of lower quality than the independant KH Wiki, but that's besides the point.

Either way, the way the statement happens heavily implies the light that Sora's strength of heart unleashed from it upscales from its darkness, as it's regarded as its true power, which quite falls as significantly affecting something to then correlate such strength of heart to the one of the Keyblade's given a certain statement in Re:Coded basically giving direct wording on that.

These wikis are pretty comprehensive and the fact that they have almost the exact same reading of events isn't great news for this feat. The only thing that really points towards Sora significantly affecting the heart is a single sentence from the Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania (or at least, one of them...there's at least two, upwards of six books this could be referring to)

...There's only a single Memorial Ultimania

And this has three fairly big issues:

• I can't find any proof that the Memorial Ultimania's are written directly by Tetsuya Nomara, which is pretty important considering this feat is the benchmark for the whole verse.

Well, I have news for you



One of the last pages of the Ultimania has Nomura directly making note that he wrote the book, autograph included.

I could have gone on this being a official Disney product (We all know how strict they can be with copyright), but this should suffice.

• More importantly, there's no reason to assume this means that Sora 'significantly affected' the Kingdom Hearts. It seems far more likely to me that the heart's light was simply drawn to Sora due to his belief in said light, not that he affected the entire structure.

That's more assumptive than the stuff we have so far leaning otherwise, which is elaborated further on the rest of this post.

• • The way the feat is worded on the wiki is objectively wrong: Sora did not "make it unleash it's true power". It doesn't have a true power, it is light, just one surrounded by darkness.

That's literally how the Memorial Ultimania describes it, again.

Sora's strength - the bonds with his friends and his continuing belief in light in the depths of darkness - awakens the true power of Kingdom Hearts - the light.

Can't get much more explicit than that, especially as we know that the bonds between hearts do make a stronger result, light and darkness (and by extension hearts) are also accepted as a UES, so...

• • The cutscene points to Sora affecting the Heart by virtually zero amount: we even see that it was the door simply opening to reveal more of the Heart that unleashed the light, not anything Sora was doing.

Sora's strength of heart unleashing the true power of the KH of Worlds is quite notable in itself, not every feat requires being direct for tiering purposes, which is even noted on the Tiering System when it comes to tier 2.

• • We know for a fact that Sora can't move the door, either. Ansem says directly that he cannot seal the door, and the scene immediately after this is Sora being totally unable to move the door.

That's just more so because it works in a manner that requires it being closed from both sides using a Keyblade of light and a Keyblade of darkness, which is why Mickey and Riku helped Sora close it, it's just a verse mechanic and not something indicative of AP, which also disproves him being unable to seal it.

• • Notably, we also get to see the Kingdom Hearts itself and...yup! Surrounded by darkness with light in the middle.

That's not really indicative of anything.

• • In any case, moving a door wouldn't scale them to the full power of the Kingdom Hearts.

The "door" in itself is just a portal to the Realm of Darkness (That's a good portion of the plot in BbS0.2AFP), which is a 6-D structure that parallels the Ocean Between, sealing it by definition is just hax, so it's not an anti-feat or anything to begin with.

• What this feat is describing is the power of the X-blade. No, really: the ability to unlock and control the Kingdom Hearts is a power exclusive to it, and is the only justification for it existing. Every single entity in KH scaling to the Kingdom Hearts, as well as sora's random Kingdom Key being able to significantly affect the Kingdom Hearts, would make literally zero sense with Xehanort's motivations.

I think it's fairly clear by now that this 2-B feat is very, very fake and outright plot-destroying, so it shouldn't be used at all, even as a possibly rating for Sora.

...The X-Blade controls true KH, which holds more hearts than the other KHs so far, for example, the KH of Worlds does not have all hearts there are, only the ones of the worlds, and by extension the ones of its inhabitants, this is why the KH of Worlds isn't tier 1 (as we know that even space is bound to hearts, as much places without light or darkness are considered a void) and several characters aren't just made tier 1 too.

The KH of Worlds was summoned by the Keyblade of Heart, which Sora took after defeating Riku and dematerialized it to free the hearts of the princesses of heart, in the end the KH of Worlds was at no one's control at that point in time, with Sora's strength of heart (not to be mixed up with the Keyblade) releasing its true power as explained before, being thus more like the exception than the standard, given we know that as the Child of Destiny he can connect his heart with the one of others.

If you have a concern on this being plot-breaking still out of sounding like something out of place, well, Sora was fated to do this to begin with, as said above with the whole Child of Destiny deal, I may as well clarify that while Player is talking about Xehanort here, the description only really fits Sora, as he was the one that overwrote the prophecy of darkness prevailing and light expiring.

There's also the feat of Young Xehanort making a copy of an entire world, which falls apart as a rating due to two simple reasons:

• He didn't do it himself. He literally says 'We' in that clip, yet the wiki asserts that he must have done it himself since Jiminy's journal doesn't use a specific pronoun, which apparently takes precedent over Young Xehanort's own mouth. Yeah no, he didn't do it himself.

We already went over that, in JP the pronoun Young Xehanort uses is also left on the air as cited there as well, so it's quite reasonable to claim it was meant to be singular (aka, he did it), as the other Org XIII members were minding their own business at the time.

• More importantly, it possibly wasn't an AP feat, either. His 'we' most likely refers to the Organization, which is a highly scientifically advanced group. Creating a copy of an entire world using off-screen technology would not be out of bounds for them considering they created digital twilight town all the way back in KHII. This is a simulation of a world that's identical to the simulation of worlds found in KHRe:Coded--simulations that we considered to be real and 2-A. Thus, them creating a copy of a real world with their technology is not only possible, but very likely.

...One thing is doing a digitally accurate copy of a reality, another is such reality being in the middle of the Ocean Between (the space between worlds), this goes even more speculative to say the least, regardless, this feat is merely supportive of tier 2 stuff being intended for the characters, especially given this feat scaling to AP and other stats on its own would be unlikely.

The last of the 2-B/2-C ratings comes from from KHRe:Coded, the arguments for which are detailed here. My arguments against them are as follows:

• Data Riku is said to be 'the journal itself', but that's a bit of a misnomer. He's the personification of the journal, yes, but the literal journal itself, and all the worlds in it, undoubtedly no (I mean he's literally walking on and in them?).

Data-Sora gets inside Data-Riku and finds himself having to explore the Datascape while inside to get rid of his bugs, which'd explicitly spread across all of it if left unchecked (watch until 11:32:55 or so), so yeah.

• He also doesn't qualify for Stabilization feats in any way.
  • It's not not entirely accurate. Here's the actual quote:
• "What I really am is Jiminy's Journal" is a simplification that's not literal at all: he's just the journal's memories, he literally says so verbatim.

As seen above, he is really literal on this matter, he makes it clear that if he goes down, so does the Datascape.

• Since this thread already says that Real Sora isn't 2-B, Data Sora's keyblade wouldn't be either.

This is aging like milk with the debunks above...

• Sora's Heartless deleting the Datascape and threatening to destroy the real world too:
  • The fact that the characters use the word 'erase' for nearly every description of this event would heavily suggest that Sora's Heartless threatening the datascape is Existence Erasure and Information Manipulation, not an AP feat. You can still argue it might be AP, but it's good to keep in mind that this already casts doubt on the feat.

EE to cosmological structures is indeed an AP feat to begin with.

• • The blog itself mentions that Sora's Heartless had become much stronger due to absorbing Digital Heartless and destroying the Bug Blox, but it fails to mention that (according to every source I can find) it does this before threatening the Datascape. This is fairly important because it'd mean that the normal form of Sora's Heartless (and Sora too) wouldn't be capable of doing this.

...And Data-Sora at his worst (aka, early-game) already scales to KHI Sora, so this is of no real relevance, unless you want there to be yet another key on the profiles just for this, which I wouldn't be a fan of given the characters at that time have little known stuff to index properly.

Characters can become stronger over time, in fact this is explicitly the case here. This is like asking to index 4 year old Sora from BbS when he's far more featless than later eras of him, which doesn't really debunk anything and just comes off as a weird and undesirable request.

• • Data-Riku says that Sora's Heartless 'is controlling the bugs...making them go crazy'. This heavily suggests that the world being deleted is a byproduct of it affecting the pre-existing bugs in the world. This is emphasized clearer by the fact that Sora's Heartless only wants to consume hearts; it doesn't have any interest in destroying the Datascape itself, that would be a side-effect.

Uh... it seems you made the quote from thin air as it's nowhere in the script, did you cite the DS version or something?

• • The real world being threatened by Sora's Heartless is referring to it consuming hearts. Which is fairly clear by the fact that that's all it does: the world being deleted is a side-effect of the bugs going rampant, not the heart itself physically destroying the data-scape (it would have zero reason whatsoever to do this).

As a Heartless, he just wants to fill his hunger with hearts, and he even says as much, Sora's Heartless also ate all the bugs to begin with, plus Data-Sora is heavily implied to have a heart, and Maleficent and Pete were somewhere else in it too, which are even regarded as not being made of data, so he'd have a reason to try taking over the Datascape.

https://www.khinsider.com/news/Re-coded-Ultimania-Scenario-Mysteries-Interview-Translated-1796
Data Sora can newly obtain a legitimate Keyblade during his adventure, but are there changes to the real Keyblade when that happens?

Nomura: No, it’s a data version the entire time. However like with the first Keyblade, it wasn’t created by someone else. It comes from the heart’s connections with the data, hinting towards the story theme, “Can a heart be born in an existence made of data?”

• • The only character that would really scale to this (if you ignore all the evidence against it being universal, which is a lot) would be Data-Sora. Scaling Mickey to it is impossible since he doesn't fight it at all and only draws out the true vessel within. Data Sora would be the only character that scales here, but he wouldn't scale to anyone else in the verse.

...Mickey literally protects Data-Sora from an attack from Sora's Heartless, and there's also Maleficent and Pete fighting evenly with Sora's Heartless off-screen (no, they weren't one-shot later on, but rather BFR'd), or Maleficent herself fighting Data-Sora right before this whole stuff.

As for the question of new scaling:

• Zeus's 4-C star-moving feat seems like another good baseline. Since the events of the movie Hercules are highly likely to mirror KH's history, that would make the Titans scale to Zeus, which would make KH1 Sora scale to Zeus, which means almost everyone is downgraded to High 4-C.

Yeah no, there's no way to use this as Zeus never uses his Telekinesis offensively or anything, especially given the nature of the feat not inherently correlating it to physical stats.

• If we don't accept this scaling then the verse would default to whatever tier Sora slicing through these buildings would be, as every single calculation for the verse above 9-B happens in KH3, then making the KH3 characters vary between 4-C and L1-C depending on the scaling.

This is just downplay as explained before, I don't have to explain that area of effect and AP don't correlate, in fact there was a discussion rule over this for KH specifically but was removed as the idea is just a wiki-wide standard nowadays.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Currently I disagree with the OP for Bobsican’s reasons

 

[ThanatosX]

Nehz_XZX and Bobsican already said everything I wanted to say.
I just want to point out that what other wiki says is not official and shouldn't be used as evidence, even as supporting ones, regardless of how well they are made. From what I know, the only links that point towards other wikis are for referring specific Jiminy's Journal's Entry or some Ansem Reports, which are transcription of what is already written in the game.
Overall, I heavily disagree with what's proposed.

 

[Eseseso]

As someone who read the blog explaining why KH is tier 2, plus after reading Bobi's reasons above, I disagree with the OP.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Disagree for Bob's reasons. The OP does really weird things in pursuit of the downgrade too, like neglecting that the χ-blade is specifically used for controlling True Kingdom Hearts while discussing a feat about Kingdom Hearts of Worlds. These are distinct entities. Kingdom Hearts of Worlds from KHI is an artificial Kingdom Hearts made by Ansem, Kingdom Hearts of Men from KHII is an artificial Kingdom Hearts made by Xemnas, and the Kingdom Hearts in KHIII is the True Kingdom Hearts, made by recreating the clash between 7 Lights and 13 Darknesses. Please read up on the series you're attempting to downgrade.

 

[Deagonx]

Please read up on the series you're attempting to downgrade.

Don't make comments like this, it doesn't help forward the discussion and is just insulting to the OP.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Don't make comments like this, it doesn't help forward the discussion and is just insulting to the OP.

/\

No matter how the revision resolves, OP clearly made a lot of effort and dedicated time to this.

In any case, I don't think my input is very useful as I do not know anything about KH. Bob's argumentation seems to make sense from a logical standpoint.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bro really tried tangoing with Bob in his own verse

I disagree with this revision for the moment

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Emirp sumitpo @UchihaSlayer96 @LephyrTheRevanchist @LordTracer @DemonGodMitchAubin @KingTempest @Lonkitt @Dereck03 @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus @Celestial_Pegasus @Ultima_Reality Your opinion here would be appreciated.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Emirp sumitpo @UchihaSlayer96 @LephyrTheRevanchist @LordTracer @DemonGodMitchAubin @KingTempest @Lonkitt @Dereck03 @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus @Celestial_Pegasus @Ultima_Reality Your opinion here would be appreciated.

Apologies, got no opinion on this verse and am completely unaware how it's indexed and its context

 

[Planck69]

Neutral for now. Might look further into it when I have time.

 

[Ayewale]

As someone who had some involvement with the Re:Coded scaling I'd like to note that Data-Sora fought against Sora's Heartless not long after fighting alongside Goofy and Donald and fighting against Maleficent and Pete, so unless you want to suggest and can explain why there was a sudden massive boost in power they would scale as well which would affect the verse as a whole.

The Maleficent and Pete that got stomped instantly by Sora's Heartless? Scaling Maleficent and Pete to the Heartless doesn't work at all, there's a direct scene of them just...losing to it. Since the game says Sora's power was evolving over time, not unreasonable to assume that he just got a lot stronger near the end.

Also 'sudden large boosts of power in times of crisis' is a fairly common trope in fiction, this isn't wild.

It should also be noted that all of the bugs except for Sora's Heartless were disposed of with its defeat marking the end of all bugs, so whatever pre-existing bugs in the Datascape it was making use of were all part of Sora's Heartless or at least connected to it and they vanished together with it upon it being destroyed.

Not sure why this is relevant.

In addition to that we should pay attention to the fact that Sora's Heartless itself announced that it was going to delete the Datascape which is what alerts everyone to it, so it was very much doing an deliberate effort to do this with Data-Riku saying not long after that that they can't let something that powerful let loose based on nothing but that which makes it clear that this is supposed to signify how strong it is.

What do you mean "Sora's Heartless announced it was going to delete the Datascape"? Sora's Heartless is a mindless entity, that's what heartless are. The deletion message is caused by the bugs going crazy, which is why Riku attributes the deletion to 'the bugs going crazy'. It's not a deliberate effort at all--it's a heartless, it doesn't do anything another than seek out strong hearts. It's far more likely that the datascape being deleted is a side-effect of the bugs (as described) than this Heartless being intentionally destructive and sentient.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The Maleficent and Pete that got stomped instantly by Sora's Heartless? Scaling Maleficent and Pete to the Heartless doesn't work at all, there's a direct scene of them just...losing to it. Since the game says Sora's power was evolving over time, not unreasonable to assume that he just got a lot stronger near the end.

Also 'sudden large boosts of power in times of crisis' is a fairly common trope in fiction, this isn't wild.

Not sure why this is relevant.


What do you mean "Sora's Heartless announced it was going to delete the Datascape"? Sora's Heartless is a mindless entity, that's what heartless are. The deletion message is caused by the bugs going crazy, which is why Riku attributes the deletion to 'the bugs going crazy'. It's not a deliberate effort at all--it's a heartless, it doesn't do anything another than seek out strong hearts. It's far more likely that the datascape being deleted is a side-effect of the bugs (as described) than this Heartless being intentionally destructive and sentient.

I believe that there are quite a few things that I could say here but I'm going to do that tomorrow due to how late it is at my place.

 

[Ayewale]

Do I have to explain that wikies on their own aren't proof as they aren't official? The Fandom KH Wiki (aka, the Keyhole) is also of lower quality than the independant KH Wiki, but that's besides the point.

The wikis are a pretty good source for evaluating the series, so it's pretty notable when both of them heavily contrast the vsbw's interpretation of an event.

Either way, the way the statement happens heavily implies the light that Sora's strength of heart unleashed from it upscales from its darkness, as it's regarded as its true power, which quite falls as significantly affecting something to then correlate such strength of heart to the one of the Keyblade's given a certain statement in Re:Coded basically giving direct wording on that.

No, it doesn't imply that at all. At very best, 'awakened' means that the light was beckoned to Sora by his emotions, which wouldn't be anything that qualifies for AP. Also you keep using the quote of it's "true power" but it has no such thing; it's just light surrounded by darkness, as it's depicted every single time we see it.

You keep using this quote of Sora 'bringing out it's true power' but the 'true power' here doesn't exist at all. There is no 'true' power, it's just light surrounded by darkness. A lot of your arguments depend on this phrasing of the nature light of the KH being something that lies dormant, which isn't really true.

We already went over that, in JP the pronoun Young Xehanort uses is also left on the air as cited there as well, so it's quite reasonable to claim it was meant to be singular (aka, he did it), as the other Org XIII members were minding their own business at the time.

In Japanese the pronoun is neutral, sure, but seeing as we've only ever seen digital/simulated worlds with technology (and from the organization with their technology), it makes infinitely more sense for him to have created the world with the organization than to have made it from scratch?

...Mickey literally protects Data-Sora from an attack from Sora's Heartless, and there's also Maleficent and Pete fighting evenly with Sora's Heartless off-screen (no, they weren't one-shot later on, but rather BFR'd), or Maleficent herself fighting Data-Sora right before this whole stuff.

Maleficent and Pete in that scene straight up say that they're unable to damage the Heartless in any way, and it doesn't look like it even acknowledged them in return, so that's not really useable. Also the fact that Maleficent didn't just travel out of the rift likely means that the two of them were knocked out (traveling between worlds on command is a power she has). Data Sora being far stronger at that specific battle is fairly funny but the game itself says that they grow stronger over-time.

Uh... it seems you made the quote from thin air as it's nowhere in the script, did you cite the DS version or something?

...I didn't makeup the quote, I link to most of this in my blog. It is from the DS and Mobile version but I think the quote is still perfectly useable seeing as it doesn't contradict anything that the Re:Coded cutscenes say.

...And Data-Sora at his worst (aka, early-game) already scales to KHI Sora, so this is of no real relevance,

Huh? Lategame Data-Sora wouldn't scale to real Sora at all since the game straight up says he's been growing far stronger. This is plenty relevant.

Data-Sora gets inside Data-Riku and finds himself having to explore the Datascape while inside to get rid of his bugs, which'd explicitly spread across all of it if left unchecked (watch until 11:32:55 or so), so yeah.
As seen above, he is really literal on this matter, he makes it clear that if he goes down, so does the Datascape.

Aren't they literally in the Datascape while this scene is happening? Unless you're arguing that Sora jumped into the Datascape from the Datascape, it seems a lot more like he was going through Riku's memories to fix the bugs. Also yeah, it makes sense that the data world wouldn't awaken as long as the bugs are in Data-Riku: he's the vessel for the journal's memories, which is what the worlds are, in a sense.

...One thing is doing a digitally accurate copy of a reality, another is such reality being in the middle of the Ocean Between (the space between worlds), this goes even more speculative to say the least, regardless, this feat is merely supportive of tier 2 stuff being intended for the characters, especially given this feat scaling to AP and other stats on its own would be unlikely.

Why would the two things be any different? Per the wiki standards, they didn't just create a 'digitally accurate' copy, we consider them to be real. Creating one in the worlds between makes zero difference.

Suggesting that Young Xehanort created an entire world by himself is far more speculative than him doing what the organization already has but in a different space that would make little difference.

EE to cosmological structures is indeed an AP feat to begin with.

Fair.

Notably, we also get to see the Kingdom Hearts itself and...yup! Surrounded by darkness with light in the middle.

That's not really indicative of anything.

It is. It's part of the argument that the KH's light isn't it's "true power" but it's just surrounded by darkness so it wouldn't immediately shine through the door, lest it was opened more to reveal more of the light.

...The X-Blade controls true KH, which holds more hearts than the other KHs so far, for example, the KH of Worlds does not have all hearts there are, only the ones of the worlds, and by extension the ones of its inhabitants, this is why the KH of Worlds isn't tier 1 (as we know that even space is bound to hearts, as much places without light or darkness are considered a void) and several characters aren't just made tier 1 too.

The KH of Worlds was summoned by the Keyblade of Heart, which Sora took after defeating Riku and dematerialized it to free the hearts of the princesses of heart, in the end the KH of Worlds was at no one's control at that point in time, with Sora's strength of heart (not to be mixed up with the Keyblade) releasing its true power as explained before, being thus more like the exception than the standard, given we know that as the Child of Destiny he can connect his heart with the one of others.

If you have a concern on this being plot-breaking still out of sounding like something out of place, well, Sora was fated to do this to begin with, as said above with the whole Child of Destiny deal, I may as well clarify that while Player is talking about Xehanort here, the description only really fits Sora, as he was the one that overwrote the prophecy of darkness prevailing and light expiring.

The Child of Destiny stuff is indisputably referring to Sora turning back time during KH3, not the events of KHI. I'm not really sure why you're bringing it up.

The Kingdom Hearts of Worlds also was not summoned by the keyblade of heart? The Kingdom Hearts was just, in the Realm of Darkness. In no way, shape or form did any Keyblade 'summon' it. I also have no clue where "given we know that as the Child of Destiny he can connect his heart with the one of others." comes from? Like, Sora being destined to save the world from darkness via time travel in KH3 wouldn't justify him being able to control the Kingdom Hearts of Worlds.

That's just more so because it works in a manner that requires it being closed from both sides using a Keyblade of light and a Keyblade of darkness, which is why Mickey and Riku helped Sora close it, it's just a verse mechanic and not something indicative of AP, which also disproves him being unable to seal it.

How does this disprove him being unable to seal it after you explained why Sora would be unable to seal it?

Can't get much more explicit than that, especially as we know that the bonds between hearts do make a stronger result, light and darkness (and by extension hearts) are also accepted as a UES, so...

But there's no indication that 'awakening' here means that Sora was using raw AP to do this? This assumption underpins everything and it doesn't really work. The far simpler explanation here is that it just beckoned to Sora's belief in the light (assuming that the light didn't just naturally reveal itself due to the door opening more).

Sora's strength of heart unleashing the true power of the KH of Worlds is quite notable in itself, not every feat requires being direct for tiering purposes, which is even noted on the Tiering System when it comes to tier 2.

The tiering system also notes that it's for feats that "don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power". Nothing in the guidebook or the cutscene indicates whatsoever that Sora is comparable to the Kingdom Hearts.

As a Heartless, he just wants to fill his hunger with hearts, and he even says as much, Sora's Heartless also ate all the bugs to begin with, plus Data-Sora is heavily implied to have a heart, and Maleficent and Pete were somewhere else in it too, which are even regarded as not being made of data, so he'd have a reason to try taking over the Datascape.

Sora Heartless didn't eat all the bugs though? That scene said that it 'devoured all the dark intentions of the heartless', but it eating all the bugs is never really said. If it did eat every single bug, then the bug blox disappearing after it was destroyed wouldn't have happened since there wouldn't be any for it to eat. It's also described as the source of the bugs, which would mean it creates them, not really 'eats them all'.

I also don't get the last line of the sentence. "Data-Sora, Maleficent and Pete all had hearts, so naturally Sora's Heartless would destroy the entirety of the Datascape". It doesn't need to do that at all to consume their hearts...hell, it literally sent Maleficent and Pete away.

...The X-Blade controls true KH, which holds more hearts than the other KHs so far, for example, the KH of Worlds does not have all hearts there are, only the ones of the worlds, and by extension the ones of its inhabitants, this is why the KH of Worlds isn't tier 1 (as we know that even space is bound to hearts, as much places without light or darkness are considered a void) and several characters aren't just made tier 1 too.

The OP does really weird things in pursuit of the downgrade too, like neglecting that the χ-blade is specifically used for controlling True Kingdom Hearts while discussing a feat about Kingdom Hearts of Worlds. These are distinct entities. Kingdom Hearts of Worlds from KHI is an artificial Kingdom Hearts made by Ansem, Kingdom Hearts of Men from KHII is an artificial Kingdom Hearts made by Xemnas, and the Kingdom Hearts in KHIII is the True Kingdom Hearts, made by recreating the clash between 7 Lights and 13 Darknesses. Please read up on the series you're attempting to downgrade.

Every single time the X-Blade has been described, it's been said to be the only thing capable of controlling 'Kingdom Hearts' in general, and this is true for pretty much the entirety of the series. Xehanort has described different forms of the Kingdom Hearts with the exact same term: Kingdom Hearts. Hell, even the term 'Kingdom Hearts of Worlds' is entirely fanmade; at least by going over the scripts for the series, it straight up doesn't exist: it's just Kingdom Hearts all the way down. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that this is referring to all of the non-artificial KHs there are: the series makes very little distinction, and the KH of Worlds and the 'True' KH aren't different entities to begin with. Barring the explicitly created ones, they're all treated the same--so, when the X-blade distinction as a weapon is being able to control 'Kingdom Hearts', and this is how it's always described, it's not unreasonable to assume that random keyblades probably don't have the power to control Kingdom Hearts.

This is just downplay as explained before, I don't have to explain that area of effect and AP don't correlate, in fact there was a discussion rule over this for KH specifically but was removed as the idea is just a wiki-wide standard nowadays.

What are you talking about? Who mentioned area of effect? Literally all I was saying there was that if we rejected the 2-B/2-C stuff, we'd have to scale the characters to pre-existing calcs and feats. I'm not arguing that they're building level due to AoE, nor did I remotely imply this.

Yeah no, there's no way to use this as Zeus never uses his Telekinesis offensively or anything, especially given the nature of the feat not inherently correlating it to physical stats.

Given Zeus is physically trapped by the Titans elements (of which the Titans are made of) in the Hercules movie, it's safe to say that the Titans scale if one uses the movie, unless Zeus was deliberately holding back.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Given Zeus is physically trapped by the Titans elements (of which the Titans are made of) in the Hercules movie, it's safe to say that the Titans scale if one uses the movie, unless Zeus was deliberately holding back.

Seeing as Hades was trapped in ******* Narnia at the end of the movie, Maleficent was killed at the end of Sleeping Beauty, and Sephiroth is murdered at the end of his game IIRC, the list goes on, it's pretty clear we're dealing with different events if we are at all

 

[Ayewale]

Seeing as Hades was trapped in ******* Narnia at the end of the movie, Maleficent was killed at the end of Sleeping Beauty, and Sephiroth is murdered at the end of his game IIRC, the list goes on, it's pretty clear we're dealing with different events if we are at all

Maleficent isn't that hard to explain since in KH she has access to revival magic. Hades ends up in the River Styx at the end of the movie, but given that he's in charge of the Underworld and can travel between there and the real world without any trouble he could've easily just...left.

Also Zeus is captured by the Titans in KH3 as well? Since the Titans don't have any reason to be way stronger in KH3 than in KH1 they would still scale.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Maleficent isn't that hard to explain since in KH she has access to revival magic. Hades ends up in the River Styx at the end of the movie, but given that he's in charge of the Underworld and can travel between there and the real world without any trouble he could've easily just...left.

Also Zeus is captured by the Titans in KH3 as well? Since the Titans don't have any reason to be way stronger in KH3 than in KH1 they would still scale.

Oh so she just randomly used a timed revive on herself that I don't think she's ever shown to have access to?

Did you know that in Greek Mythology the River of Styx kills Gods' godhood? Let's just say, Hades can be as big of a bitch as he wants, he's not leaving that thing without explicit proof of having left it beyond "well he COULD have!"

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You unfortunately stepped into Bob’s Domain Expansion.

In all seriousness, though, neutral for now, reading it all over.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Every single time the X-Blade has been described, it's been said to be the only thing capable of controlling 'Kingdom Hearts' in general, and this is true for pretty much the entirety of the series. Xehanort has described different forms of the Kingdom Hearts with the exact same term: Kingdom Hearts. Hell, even the term 'Kingdom Hearts of Worlds' is entirely fanmade; at least by going over the scripts for the series, it straight up doesn't exist: it's just Kingdom Hearts all the way down. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that this is referring to all of the non-artificial KHs there are: the series makes very little distinction, and the KH of Worlds and the 'True' KH aren't different entities to begin with. Barring the explicitly created ones, they're all treated the same--so, when the X-blade distinction as a weapon is being able to control 'Kingdom Hearts', and this is how it's always described, it's not unreasonable to assume that random keyblades probably don't have the power to control Kingdom Hearts.

These aren't fan-made terms and differentiations. Kingdom Hearts' Memorial Ultimania specifically labels them "Kingdom Hearts of Worlds," "Kingdom Hearts of People," and "True Kingdom Hearts." Even dating back to the days of KHII Final Mix, the distinctions and labels of a Kingdom Hearts of People vs. a Kingdom Hearts of Worlds have been made distinct by Nomura. Their titles aren't specifically from the games, but the distinctions about the Kingdom Hearts from both KHI and KHII is still evident in the games. I would advise you to read the Memorial Ultimania description about True Kingdom Hearts as it is important to this discussion. The χ-blade is specifically the counterpart to that iteration of Kingdom Hearts. The whole point of getting the χ-blade is because True Kingdom Hearts was lost to the darkness, so Xehanort needed the χ-blade to control that Kingdom Hearts. The χ-blade was entirely a non-factor when it came to Ansem's plans with Kingdom Hearts of Worlds and Xemnas' plans with Kingdom Hearts of People. It is incredibly baseless to posit that these noted artificial copies would have the exact same mechanics as True Kingdom Hearts. I responded to this point only because it was a direct challenge to my original claim, but I plan on addressing some of your other arguments to Bob. I am still a firm disagree.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Disagree FRA.

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

I disagree with the OP due to Bob's information and points.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Dang, bro really got slaughtered.

Disagree with OP

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I disagree with the OP via reasons stated by Bobsican and Ploz.

 

[Ayewale]

These aren't fan-made terms and differentiations. Kingdom Hearts' Memorial Ultimania specifically labels them "Kingdom Hearts of Worlds," "Kingdom Hearts of People," and "True Kingdom Hearts." Even dating back to the days of KHII Final Mix, the distinctions and labels of a Kingdom Hearts of People vs. a Kingdom Hearts of Worlds have been made distinct by Nomura. Their titles aren't specifically from the games, but the distinctions about the Kingdom Hearts from both KHI and KHII is still evident in the games. I would advise you to read the Memorial Ultimania description about True Kingdom Hearts as it is important to this discussion. The χ-blade is specifically the counterpart to that iteration of Kingdom Hearts. The whole point of getting the χ-blade is because True Kingdom Hearts was lost to the darkness, so Xehanort needed the χ-blade to control that Kingdom Hearts. The χ-blade was entirely a non-factor when it came to Ansem's plans with Kingdom Hearts of Worlds and Xemnas' plans with Kingdom Hearts of People. It is incredibly baseless to posit that these noted artificial copies would have the exact same mechanics as True Kingdom Hearts. I responded to this point only because it was a direct challenge to my original claim, but I plan on addressing some of your other arguments to Bob. I am still a firm disagree.

What on earth do you mean by artificial copies? The Kingdom Hearts of Worlds and Hearts of People aren't artificial, nobody created them.

While I admit that I was wrong about them being fanmade terms, the point still stands that the descriptions of the X-blade are still entirely generalized as 'Kingdom Hearts'. This is supported more by the fact that they have been specified in the games, but when discussing the X-blade, the general term is the only one that's ever used.

 

[Ayewale]

Oh so she just randomly used a timed revive on herself that I don't think she's ever shown to have access to?

Did you know that in Greek Mythology the River of Styx kills Gods' godhood? Let's just say, Hades can be as big of a bitch as he wants, he's not leaving that thing without explicit proof of having left it beyond "well he COULD have!"

Mythology arguments don't really matter since Hercules =/= real mythology. And Maleficent does have a timed revive in the KH universe, it's how she came back in KH2 in the first place.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Mythology arguments don't really matter since Hercules =/= real mythology. And Maleficent does have a timed revive in the KH universe, it's how she came back in KH2 in the first place.

Hades can be as big of a bitch as he wants, he's not leaving that thing without explicit proof of having left it beyond "well he COULD have!"

Read.

Also, Maleficent has Low-Godly on her profile because she can come back. Not type 4 immortality.

 

[Ayewale]

I'm overall definitely not a fan of the whole point that the X-Blade only refers to the true kingdom hearts probably isn't true since...it's always described in relation to just 'Kingdom Hearts' literally every time it's ever mentioned. The fact that Nomura and the series have made the distinction actually furthers the point: since Nomura is keenly aware that they're different, the fact that the X-blade is always described in relation to the Kingdom Hearts in general would make it even more likely that that's the case.

 

[Ayewale]

Read.

Also, Maleficent has Low-Godly on her profile because she can come back. Not type 4 immortality.

What do you mean read? What in the movie indicates that Hades can't escape a river in the realm he controls but can skip across dimensions perfectly fine???

Her having low-godly is an error on the wiki's part. I'll check later but at least from what I gather, Maleficent either time traveled to escape death or was revived by Diablo. She definitely didn't just regen from pure darkness.

 

[DaReaperMan]

What do you mean read? What in the movie indicates that Hades can't escape a river in the realm he controls but can skip across dimensions perfectly fine???

Her having low-godly is an error on the wiki's part. I'll check later but at least from what I gather, Maleficent either time traveled to escape death or was revived by Diablo. She definitely didn't just regen from pure darkness.

The fact he didn't leave immediately despite making a last ditch effort to **** up Hercules

Then ****** fix it! Rework her whole damn profile while you're at it cause it is actual ass!

 

[Ayewale]

One of the last pages of the Ultimania has Nomura directly making note that he wrote the book, autograph included.

In fairness, this doesn't mean that he actually wrote the entirety of the book himself? I really doubted he had the time to make a 262 page document while working on several different games at once and yeah, having checked the Memorial Ultimania's credits, Nomura isn't credited here whatsoever. Which isn't surprising: there isn't a single video game guidebook I can think of that's personally written or even edited by their creators. But it does mean that the validity of the guidebook comes into serious question since he doesn't even have a credit for editing and we're using an english translation of this phrase at that.

While I know most people already disagree I do feel like this one is actually fairly important.

 

[Bobsican]

The Maleficent and Pete that got stomped instantly by Sora's Heartless? Scaling Maleficent and Pete to the Heartless doesn't work at all, there's a direct scene of them just...losing to it. Since the game says Sora's power was evolving over time, not unreasonable to assume that he just got a lot stronger near the end.


Also 'sudden large boosts of power in times of crisis' is a fairly common trope in fiction, this isn't wild.

As said before...

...Mickey literally protects Data-Sora from an attack from Sora's Heartless, and there's also Maleficent and Pete fighting evenly with Sora's Heartless off-screen (no, they weren't one-shot later on, but rather BFR'd), or Maleficent herself fighting Data-Sora right before this whole stuff.

Mickey being able to keep up with Sora's Heartless even after all of his stat amp deal still preserves scaling to characters outside Data-Sora, if anything it's clear Mickey should upscale from both, and Sora's Heartless was going to breach into the real world and do the same stuff (cosmological erasure) if Data-Sora didn't get in the way of preventing him from just deleting the Datascape, which is relevant as that confirms he had the same tier 1 capabilities regardless of these amps, plus there's the Re:Coded Ultimania further backing up Sora's Heartless' capabilities on this regard.

What do you mean "Sora's Heartless announced it was going to delete the Datascape"? Sora's Heartless is a mindless entity, that's what heartless are. The deletion message is caused by the bugs going crazy, which is why Riku attributes the deletion to 'the bugs going crazy'. It's not a deliberate effort at all--it's a heartless, it doesn't do anything another than seek out strong hearts. It's far more likely that the datascape being deleted is a side-effect of the bugs (as described) than this Heartless being intentionally destructive and sentient.

...Heartless are smarter than you think, let's see, they can pilot spaceships and mechas, and can talk too, the last of which disproves Heartless inherently having animalistic intelligence (Which is still above something truly mindless, mind you), I have several more scans of Heartless talking too, but I think the above is more than sufficient.

The wikis are a pretty good source for evaluating the series, so it's pretty notable when both of them heavily contrast the vsbw's interpretation of an event.

While they are a good resource, such notability is just on reputation at best over proper correctness or wrongness, keep in mind those wikies are rather inactive and small on editors compared to behemoths like VSBW itself, and i can say this as I've collaborated sometimes on the KH Wiki.

No, it doesn't imply that at all. At very best, 'awakened' means that the light was beckoned to Sora by his emotions, which wouldn't be anything that qualifies for AP. Also you keep using the quote of it's "true power" but it has no such thing; it's just light surrounded by darkness, as it's depicted every single time we see it.

You keep using this quote of Sora 'bringing out it's true power' but the 'true power' here doesn't exist at all. There is no 'true' power, it's just light surrounded by darkness. A lot of your arguments depend on this phrasing of the nature light of the KH being something that lies dormant, which isn't really true.

But there's no indication that 'awakening' here means that Sora was using raw AP to do this? This assumption underpins everything and it doesn't really work. The far simpler explanation here is that it just beckoned to Sora's belief in the light (assuming that the light didn't just naturally reveal itself due to the door opening more).

The tiering system also notes that it's for feats that "don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power". Nothing in the guidebook or the cutscene indicates whatsoever that Sora is comparable to the Kingdom Hearts.

As said before, we know that hearts become stronger once they bond together (which is relevant as that's brought up as Sora's strength alongside his belief on light), and given the above with the Child of Destiny and the following, it's quite safe to claim that Sora's strength of heart directly scales to the KH of Worlds, as such stuff directly relates to the strength of his heart, unless you want to make an assumption claiming that Sora could have done this regardless of the strength of his heart, which is highlighted indirectly here as the cause in the first place.

“The Door to Darkness…?”
Ansem stretched his hand out behind him, where there was a white door. “Kingdom Hearts! Fill me with the power of darkness…”
The white door barely began to open. Darkness spilled forth from it.
Was this the Door to Darkness?
“You’re wrong!” cried Sora.
All hearts are born in darkness? I don’t believe that.
Hearts are born in light.
Even if there is darkness in our hearts, there’s light to drive it away.
With every person we meet, our hearts are connected, and the connections turn to light.
“I know now without a doubt — Kingdom Hearts is light !”
The darkness twining around them became beams of light that struck Ansem. “What — ?!”
Amid the dazzling brightness, Ansem’s gaze was fixed on the door. The seeker of darkness was enveloped in a burst of light.
“Light… But…why…”
And then, with the light, Ansem faded away…

- KHI Novel

In Japanese the pronoun is neutral, sure, but seeing as we've only ever seen digital/simulated worlds with technology (and from the organization with their technology), it makes infinitely more sense for him to have created the world with the organization than to have made it from scratch?

That'd be more assumptive as such devices were just stolen from Ansem the Wise (the original copy of Space Paranoids (The Grid) is in The Castle that Never Was, aka, their headquarters, as stated in one of the KHII novels, which is how they could reach the digital Twilight Town Roxas was on in KHII), which was never an ally to the Organization.

Episode 6: Axel—Seven Days

Written by: Kanemaki Tomoco Original Plan: Nomura Tetsuya and Nojima Kazushige Illustration: Amano Shiro Translations: Goldpanner Copyrighted by Disney, Square Enix and Touchstone Pictures. No prof…

khenglish.wordpress.com

Deep inside the castle of the world that never was, there were silent rooms. Once, they had been research facilities, and there was an enormous computer with various data stored on it. Axel had heard it was the same computer Ansem had once had, salvaged and put here.

“You know something of computers, right?”

Saïx sat in the pallid light from the computer screen. He opened up a window on the screen; a map of Twilight Town.

“What’s the point of stupid details like that at this late a date?”

“That’s not Twilight Town,” said Saïx, and tapped a few buttons. Four white dots showed up on the map, spread here and there.

“What’s that?”

“Dusks. They have orders to pursue Roxas.”

Maleficent and Pete in that scene straight up say that they're unable to damage the Heartless in any way, and it doesn't look like it even acknowledged them in return, so that's not really useable. Also the fact that Maleficent didn't just travel out of the rift likely means that the two of them were knocked out (traveling between worlds on command is a power she has). Data Sora being far stronger at that specific battle is fairly funny but the game itself says that they grow stronger over-time.

Only Pete was the one being a coward, Maleficent merely saw him as a worthy foe, Pete being tired in itself implies they were fighting for a while, it really seems you're trying hard to nitpick this feat just because half of it happened off-screen, statements can matter, after all.

...I didn't makeup the quote, I link to most of this in my blog. It is from the DS and Mobile version but I think the quote is still perfectly useable seeing as it doesn't contradict anything that the Re:Coded cutscenes say.

Link to the blog or some source please then?

Huh? Lategame Data-Sora wouldn't scale to real Sora at all since the game straight up says he's been growing far stronger. This is plenty relevant.

He upscales from KHI Sora, then scales to his own higher feats, yes.

Aren't they literally in the Datascape while this scene is happening? Unless you're arguing that Sora jumped into the Datascape from the Datascape, it seems a lot more like he was going through Riku's memories to fix the bugs. Also yeah, it makes sense that the data world wouldn't awaken as long as the bugs are in Data-Riku: he's the vessel for the journal's memories, which is what the worlds are, in a sense.

More like a deeper area of it, but yeah, the Re:Coded novel further backs this up:

SORA STEPPED INTO THE WORLD WITHIN RIKU — PERHAPS it was best to call this place a datascape of Jiminy’s journal, for which Riku served as the vessel. It was dark, with wires of light occasionally racing across the gloom.

Why would the two things be any different? Per the wiki standards, they didn't just create a 'digitally accurate' copy, we consider them to be real. Creating one in the worlds between makes zero difference.

Thing is that the characters heavily refrain from just taking stuff out of Datascapes into the main reality, as once they're out they can't just be deleted with a button anymore, add to that the characters being mostly technologically illiterate to do something like this out of the deal of stealing a computer as mentioned above and this claim falls apart.

Suggesting that Young Xehanort created an entire world by himself is far more speculative than him doing what the organization already has but in a different space that would make little difference.

As seen with the above the context renders that idea as even more speculative, regardless, this is just a supporting feat for higher ends, especially as the characters scale to way higher stuff than this.

It is. It's part of the argument that the KH's light isn't it's "true power" but it's just surrounded by darkness so it wouldn't immediately shine through the door, lest it was opened more to reveal more of the light.

Actually, the whole area behind the door was extremely dark, it wasn't until Sora's stuff when it showcased light to begin with.

The Child of Destiny stuff is indisputably referring to Sora turning back time during KH3, not the events of KHI. I'm not really sure why you're bringing it up.

Regarding the Child of Destiny (Sora) being able to connect his heart with the ones of others, and as said multiple times, gain strength accordingly.

The Kingdom Hearts of Worlds also was not summoned by the keyblade of heart? The Kingdom Hearts was just, in the Realm of Darkness. In no way, shape or form did any Keyblade 'summon' it.

It's an artificial KH to begin with as it was made by the power of the Keyblade of Heart, so yes, that Keyblade summoned it, in no way it breaks the plot as it's special even among Keyblades out of its unique capabilities including materializing that KH (as others have mentioned, there's multiple types of KH), and being made from the hearts of the Seven Princesses, which are unique in the whole setting out of having hearts entirely devoid of darkness.

I also have no clue where "given we know that as the Child of Destiny he can connect his heart with the one of others." comes from? Like, Sora being destined to save the world from darkness via time travel in KH3 wouldn't justify him being able to control the Kingdom Hearts of Worlds.

As said before, Player describes the Child of Destiny as being able to do this (connecting their heart with the one of others).

How does this disprove him being unable to seal it after you explained why Sora would be unable to seal it?

By just doing it with teamwork, even if we favored the idea of this being an AP feat (it's not), significantly contributing to stuff in tier 2 and above still allows scaling, as much dividing the AP of a tier 2 character by a finite amount still nets tier 2.

Sora Heartless didn't eat all the bugs though? That scene said that it 'devoured all the dark intentions of the heartless', but it eating all the bugs is never really said. If it did eat every single bug, then the bug blox disappearing after it was destroyed wouldn't have happened since there wouldn't be any for it to eat. It's also described as the source of the bugs, which would mean it creates them, not really 'eats them all'.

Data-Sora destroyed all the bugs in the Datascape, and then is told that all of their "minds" ended up assimilated by Sora's Heartless, no Bug Blox appear after this besides "emulations" of past events, including Castle Oblivion. I'd avoid relying on the original Japanese phone version as it seems this was retconned in all later releases of Coded (Aka, Re:Coded).

I also don't get the last line of the sentence. "Data-Sora, Maleficent and Pete all had hearts, so naturally Sora's Heartless would destroy the entirety of the Datascape". It doesn't need to do that at all to consume their hearts...hell, it literally sent Maleficent and Pete away.

Nevermind, my bad, looking further the reason he wants to destroy the Datascape is for, multiple reasons, including:

• Breaching into the real world
• Heartless instinct to return everything to darkness
• Hunger for hearts

So yes, not only it has multiple (questionable, it's a villain to begin with) reasons to delete it, and is overall even confirmed to be doing so were it not for Data-Sora and others stopping him.

What are you talking about? Who mentioned area of effect? Literally all I was saying there was that if we rejected the 2-B/2-C stuff, we'd have to scale the characters to pre-existing calcs and feats. I'm not arguing that they're building level due to AoE, nor did I remotely imply this.

I'm just saying that just in case you potentially brought that up, it's so common to the point it's just a safety measure and I'm not intending to insert words into your mouth.

Given Zeus is physically trapped by the Titans elements (of which the Titans are made of) in the Hercules movie, it's safe to say that the Titans scale if one uses the movie, unless Zeus was deliberately holding back.

Yeah, the original source material isn't typically used for indexing purposes on KH unless stated to have happened, canonicity rules and all of that, note how a good chunk of worlds don't have the movies happening before their inclusion, but rather are happening in the present time of a given KH game, which is quite clear given even Nomura has stated the usual inclusion of a Disney movie into KH is just "what if Sora and company were there?".

https://www.khinsider.com/news/Kingdom-Hearts-3-Ultimania-Main-Nomura-Interview-Translated-14763
—We were surprised at how the plot of the Pixar worlds were continuations of the original movies.

Nomura: Originally, the basic pattern of the KH series was that Sora and the others get involved in scenes that depict the happenings of the original films. The Tangled and Frozen worlds fit that description. However, with Toy Story and Monsters Inc., upon request from the creators, we went with a pattern of depicting a period set after the movie as an "authorized history." Which pattern a world would follow depended greatly on the ideas of the creators and producers of the movies.

There's also some creative liberties taken like Wonderland being real in KH while it's just a dream in the original, Pinocchio becoming a real child in Traverse Town, instead of in his own world, there being two Baymaxes, etc.

In fairness, this doesn't mean that he actually wrote the entirety of the book himself? I really doubted he had the time to make a 262 page document while working on several different games at once and yeah, having checked the Memorial Ultimania's credits, Nomura isn't credited here whatsoever. Which isn't surprising: there isn't a single video game guidebook I can think of that's personally written or even edited by their creators. But it does mean that the validity of the guidebook comes into serious question since he doesn't even have a credit for editing and we're using an english translation of this phrase at that.

Having a whole page dedicated to him (Nomura) making it clear he created the book (by supervising/cooperating), being regarded as the series director and bothering including his own autograph, then claiming he didn't participate for it at all when he's credited under the KH team umbrella is quite inappropiate to say the least.

Also...

https://www.khinsider.com/news/Nomu...ending-and-future-simultaneous-releases-14559
--You're writing the scenario yourself?
Nomura: When it comes to the scenario, including the script, in the end I write everything myself. That's not just for Toy Box. I haven't made this public before, but after KH2 generally everything was written by me, especially KH 358/2 Days.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

dang this thread got cooked

Disagree for reasons stated by B*bsican and Ploz

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Disagree for Bobsican and Ploz's reasons.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

What on earth do you mean by artificial copies? The Kingdom Hearts of Worlds and Hearts of People aren't artificial, nobody created them.

While I admit that I was wrong about them being fanmade terms, the point still stands that the descriptions of the X-blade are still entirely generalized as 'Kingdom Hearts'. This is supported more by the fact that they have been specified in the games, but when discussing the X-blade, the general term is the only one that's ever used.

Dawg WHAT

It is directly stated in dream drop distance that the two KH are artificial.

 

[Shmooply]

Disagree for the way-too-many-to-count reasons above.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The Maleficent and Pete that got stomped instantly by Sora's Heartless? Scaling Maleficent and Pete to the Heartless doesn't work at all, there's a direct scene of them just...losing to it. Since the game says Sora's power was evolving over time, not unreasonable to assume that he just got a lot stronger near the end.

Also 'sudden large boosts of power in times of crisis' is a fairly common trope in fiction, this isn't wild.

Not sure why this is relevant.


What do you mean "Sora's Heartless announced it was going to delete the Datascape"? Sora's Heartless is a mindless entity, that's what heartless are. The deletion message is caused by the bugs going crazy, which is why Riku attributes the deletion to 'the bugs going crazy'. It's not a deliberate effort at all--it's a heartless, it doesn't do anything another than seek out strong hearts. It's far more likely that the datascape being deleted is a side-effect of the bugs (as described) than this Heartless being intentionally destructive and sentient.

While Sora's Heartless clearly had the upper hand the dialogue from Pete and Maleficent indicates that they have been fighting it for at least a little bit and Maleficent still hadn't lost her confidence. They did get taken out of the way not long after Data-Sora's arrival though it was shown that they were simply send to a rift in the data, so this move seems to simply be an application of the power over data that Sora's Heartless had which by itself wouldn't count for Attack Potency or Durability purposes though you might want to argue that it would matter for Speed. It exerted some kind of pressure right after that and had Sora remark on its strength and I guess its control over data is also part of how powerful it is due to what it is doing to the whole Datascape though it still hardly used any brute strength to get Maleficent and Pete away.

There is continuously improving and then there is just there being a sudden unprecedented spike in the growth rate. That's too much to assert without an explanation and I'm not willing to just assume that there is a case of bad writing without further evidence. Sudden large boosts of power in times of crisis may be a common trope but this doesn't mean that we should just take for granted that something like that is happening and make it some kind of default assumption for stuff like that and explanations for these things are also common in fiction. Without at least some time having passed or there being some kind of explicit indication of them having gotten stronger we don't just make new keys for characters for every feat that simply happens to surpass what we previously saw them do since depending on the context the story tries to convey they might not really have been too far away from the newly displayed level of power to begin with.

I would for example not just make multiple keys solely for one fight purely because it repeatedly escalates the displayed power levels to previously unreached levels without any further information. Another thing that should be taken into consideration is if that even makes sense with the kind of story the series is trying to tell and if that is actually something they would do based on how they handled the story in the past. Try to keep in mind that the last major opponent Data-Sora faced before Sora's Heartless was Maleficent with no indication or remark of Data Sora having gotten stronger in the short time between the two confrontations and we get to see everything that happened to Data-Sora in that timeframe, so there is no ambiguity to what happened to him or what he did in that time.


The main point is that the bugs that were currently in the Datascape at that point were either part of Sora's Heartless or part of its power and influence, so there is no point in separating them for the purposes of feats or scaling. There isn't much to talk about regarding this point beyond that though.


It might be worth noting that unlike ordinary Shadows Sora's Heartless isn't treated by us as simply being of Animalistic Intelligence even if it is still primarily driven by its Heartless instincts. We even have instances of it clearly talking which is certainly beyond what normal Heartless display though it is mostly related to the typical activities of Heartless. The context would suggest that the statements regarding the situation apply to Sora's Heartless since it is the last remnant of the bugs that needed to be taken care of at that point.

 

[KingTempest]

Apologies, got no opinion on this verse and am completely unaware how it's indexed and its context

^

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

What on earth do you mean by artificial copies? The Kingdom Hearts of Worlds and Hearts of People aren't artificial, nobody created them.

While I admit that I was wrong about them being fanmade terms, the point still stands that the descriptions of the X-blade are still entirely generalized as 'Kingdom Hearts'. This is supported more by the fact that they have been specified in the games, but when discussing the X-blade, the general term is the only one that's ever used.

I'm overall definitely not a fan of the whole point that the X-Blade only refers to the true kingdom hearts probably isn't true since...it's always described in relation to just 'Kingdom Hearts' literally every time it's ever mentioned. The fact that Nomura and the series have made the distinction actually furthers the point: since Nomura is keenly aware that they're different, the fact that the X-blade is always described in relation to the Kingdom Hearts in general would make it even more likely that that's the case.

The entire plot of both KHI and KHII is that both of them are artificially created. I don't see the confusion here. Kingdom Hearts of Worlds was made from the combined hearts of worlds that the Heartless destroyed. Kingdom Hearts of People is created by the combination of stolen hearts of people being released from defeated Heartless. They do not naturally exist; they have to be made by force.

Some people have already given you scans about their artificial nature, but this album should be definitive on the subject. The Kingdom Hearts made in KHI and KHII are the Kingdom Hearts made "forcibly and artificially," as mentioned in Xehanort Report VII. Furthermore, the χ-blade is mentioned explicitly to coexist in relation to the "perfect and complete" Kingdom Hearts mentioned in the report. The χ-blade has nothing to do with the artificial versions made in KHI and KHII. This is literally just a fact in the lore; there's nothing more to it.