- 2,355
- 270
Why are most arguments against basically taking things out of context?
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
2-A Nasuverse revision
- Thread starter Iapitus_The_Impaler
- Start date
- 98
- 29
Besides the simulation and the argument that parallel worlds aren't literally infinite, four of the arguments against 2-A have been made in this thread. If you feel something was taken out of context, feel free to point it out.
- 6,300
- 1,599
I have scans for real multiple Infinite universes. I just need time to write it up
- 6,300
- 1,599
I should say ADDITIONAL scans that haven't been seen or used yetTheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
- 165,715
- 73,466
Well, Hun seems to make sense to me here, but I am the wrong person to ask, and this seems rather complicated. Perhaps you can ask all of the staff members listed in the various Fate series and Nasuverse pages, along with the ones in the Knowledgeable Members List?
- 528
- 418
@Ant
These 2-A revisions relies heavily on Fate/Extra C.C.C which is an untranslated japanese game. As far as fan translation goes, someone made a blog covering only Gilgamesh route (When the game has 4 routes).
Essentially this all boils down to missing context/untranslated parts that creates this divergence between those who opposes it and those who agreed on it
These 2-A revisions relies heavily on Fate/Extra C.C.C which is an untranslated japanese game. As far as fan translation goes, someone made a blog covering only Gilgamesh route (When the game has 4 routes).
Essentially this all boils down to missing context/untranslated parts that creates this divergence between those who opposes it and those who agreed on it
- 9,524
- 1,789
From what I've heard the Gil route alone covers enough of the world building of CCC
The people who have problems with the upgrade don't really have problems with context or anything they just don't believe the things in the mooncell are real and say it can only make fake simulations
The people who have problems with the upgrade don't really have problems with context or anything they just don't believe the things in the mooncell are real and say it can only make fake simulations
- 16,606
- 1,788
- Thread starter
- #129
They aren't mainly based on CCC lol. What do you mean? They are primarily based on Last Encore, which is an officially translated netflix series, and the CCC characters just happen to be those who primarily scale
- 2,355
- 270
This is again the case of people ignoring certain things to fuel their own narrative. There is no cosmological difference between routes. The only thing that would be gained is a bit more information about the three playable servants. This is not a valid argument against 2-A.
Hun's arguments:
1. Depends on your perspective and interpretation. Having more low 2-C feats than 2-A does not mean characters aren't 2-A. Possible question of "inconsistency" comes only from something like Grand Order, not Extra CCC itself. If you see a creation of a universe-sized area the best feat for the Moon Cell, that's the matter of your perspective. The context is: universe-sized area was created to contain something of that size and it did not require creation of multiverse-sized area.
2. Don't know what arguments you are talking about. If you are talking about arguments when Fate was being upgraded to low 2-C then of course you use low 2-C feats. Your goal is to upgrade characters to that tier. If you are implying that in 2-A revision we used low 2-C feats, then that's completely wrong. Also, you are taking "parallel worlds" out of context. The OP in the revision thread states that terms such as "parallel worlds", "timelines", "possibilities", "if-futures" etc. all mean the same thing there.
3. This point is weird. It is not incorrect, but it also doesn't have anything to do with what is being discussed here, so I don't know what to say.
4. If you are suggesting that timelines stored within the Moon Cell core are "reality marbles" then I will simply ignore this point because it's better I don't address it.
5. We have also addressed the point of Quantum Timelocks and deemed them inconsistent with the rest of Fate. Such is the way with Extella. We can accepted Quantum Timelocks as absolute truth and we can also delete CCC key from Gilgamesh's profile because he doesn't exist according to Extella's logic.
Hun's arguments:
1. Depends on your perspective and interpretation. Having more low 2-C feats than 2-A does not mean characters aren't 2-A. Possible question of "inconsistency" comes only from something like Grand Order, not Extra CCC itself. If you see a creation of a universe-sized area the best feat for the Moon Cell, that's the matter of your perspective. The context is: universe-sized area was created to contain something of that size and it did not require creation of multiverse-sized area.
2. Don't know what arguments you are talking about. If you are talking about arguments when Fate was being upgraded to low 2-C then of course you use low 2-C feats. Your goal is to upgrade characters to that tier. If you are implying that in 2-A revision we used low 2-C feats, then that's completely wrong. Also, you are taking "parallel worlds" out of context. The OP in the revision thread states that terms such as "parallel worlds", "timelines", "possibilities", "if-futures" etc. all mean the same thing there.
3. This point is weird. It is not incorrect, but it also doesn't have anything to do with what is being discussed here, so I don't know what to say.
4. If you are suggesting that timelines stored within the Moon Cell core are "reality marbles" then I will simply ignore this point because it's better I don't address it.
5. We have also addressed the point of Quantum Timelocks and deemed them inconsistent with the rest of Fate. Such is the way with Extella. We can accepted Quantum Timelocks as absolute truth and we can also delete CCC key from Gilgamesh's profile because he doesn't exist according to Extella's logic.
- 9,524
- 1,789
We already had staff involved in the original threads where they were actually upgraded and the staff that looked at the scans including Monarch who is knowledgeable agreed that the upgrades made sense
- 9,524
- 1,789
The problem is that with the exception of Monarch and Prom there are no knowledgable staff members on this part of the verse and Prom dislikes Fate threads
- 2,355
- 270
Monarch also probably wouldn't bother repeating himself. He has stated that he read both the arguments for and against and he agrees with 2-A.
- 528
- 418
@Iapitus
That's another big problem. Fate is known for its official translations to be...generally bad leading to even more misinformation
Such an example is Fate/Extra with its furigina issues. Or FGO and some of its TL issues (IIRC Tamamo saying smth about Amaterasu busting multiverse or smth which was revealed to be wrong and nothing but a mistranslation)
Won't press more on the issue but it's just something i wanted to point out
Good luck to all of you on resolving this stuff
That's another big problem. Fate is known for its official translations to be...generally bad leading to even more misinformation
Such an example is Fate/Extra with its furigina issues. Or FGO and some of its TL issues (IIRC Tamamo saying smth about Amaterasu busting multiverse or smth which was revealed to be wrong and nothing but a mistranslation)
Won't press more on the issue but it's just something i wanted to point out
Good luck to all of you on resolving this stuff
- 6,300
- 1,599
People are trying really hard to downgrade.
Why must we disregard fan translations when a huge portion of this wiki/site already uses fa translations for other verse, also any other place official translation service can be prone to issues as well. Viz media for example. Also, the new scans I have come from Extella with official translations.
Why must we disregard fan translations when a huge portion of this wiki/site already uses fa translations for other verse, also any other place official translation service can be prone to issues as well. Viz media for example. Also, the new scans I have come from Extella with official translations.
- 98
- 29
1. The problem is these 2A feats that are assumed Multiversal+ also either happen to be universal when we scale them from other statements, such as Suzaka's Noble Phantasm which is either on par or above the Moon Cell's computational power. Or you scale that with Chakravartin which was also stated to prune all parallel worlds. Or Kiara who made a comment like Thanos in CCC about how she will destroy the entire sanzendaisensekai/trichiliocosm after transforming into a True Demon and gaining the rights to the Moon Cell. Grand Order is the melting pot of the nasuverse, why shouldn't we consider inconsistency with it? Furthermore, it's not that Extra CCC itself operates through completely different rules, or you will have to provide evidence for such. And we don't just have inconsistencies from just Grand Order, but also Extra, Last Encore and Extra CCC as well.
2. I have not taken them out of context. By equating other mentions of parallel worlds with the trichiliocosm, as well as the timelines Angelica Cage observes, the point is the nasuverse itself is currently around universal.
3. This point is to say that the Moon Cell is not an outlier. It is also universal.
4. It's based on the lore behind worlds from Camelot, and how world and cosmos are interchangable in Japanese, and how these parallel timelines scale to the trichiliocosm.
5. Uh, why is deemed inconsistent? This kind of reasoning is something I have seen from people who assumed there were infinite timelines from the start before Extella retconned it. The truth is that's not the case. Parallel timelines were simply referenced before and their mechanics remained unclear, Extella simply explained how it worked. It's the English fans who went ahead with their assumptions that they are infinite. Nasu even said that the Tatari route of Melty Blood is a compiled event whereas the Kouhaku route was pruned. And if you're trying to say Gilgamesh coming over from the far side is retconned in Extella, he does that in Altera's route too.
2. I have not taken them out of context. By equating other mentions of parallel worlds with the trichiliocosm, as well as the timelines Angelica Cage observes, the point is the nasuverse itself is currently around universal.
3. This point is to say that the Moon Cell is not an outlier. It is also universal.
4. It's based on the lore behind worlds from Camelot, and how world and cosmos are interchangable in Japanese, and how these parallel timelines scale to the trichiliocosm.
5. Uh, why is deemed inconsistent? This kind of reasoning is something I have seen from people who assumed there were infinite timelines from the start before Extella retconned it. The truth is that's not the case. Parallel timelines were simply referenced before and their mechanics remained unclear, Extella simply explained how it worked. It's the English fans who went ahead with their assumptions that they are infinite. Nasu even said that the Tatari route of Melty Blood is a compiled event whereas the Kouhaku route was pruned. And if you're trying to say Gilgamesh coming over from the far side is retconned in Extella, he does that in Altera's route too.
- 98
- 29
In addition, I find it strange that Extella is inconsistent thereforeit cannot be considered. On the other hand, if you had to prove these timelines were physical and not just simulation you would also be using Extella for it. This is just selective bias.
- 9,524
- 1,789
No, it was ruled inconsistent because the entirety of the franchise repeatedly states that there are infinite parallel worlds and Extella has one statement about infinite worlds not being possible due to lack of energy, which contradicts the rest of Fate
- 6,300
- 1,599
Isn't that Cherry picking at its finest? Saying everything, all things are inconsistent but universal?
May I ask how it's inconsistent?
I'll be ready to type a lot later
May I ask how it's inconsistent?
I'll be ready to type a lot later
- 98
- 29
No, as I gave the example, this is more of a case where people don't bother to look up the details.Paul Frank said:
- 98
- 29
See my first reply.TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
- 16,606
- 1,788
- Thread starter
- #144
I actually checked up on this, and apparently the fan translations use wording that more-so implies raw destruction, so it would only support itSleepyTBubble said:
- 98
- 29
She is again talking about the trichiliocosm, which is something I added in my first comment, and she says that while comparing herself to Goetia. Kiara also says the same thing in the Moon Cell.
Also now that I read Paul's comment again, I'm curious where this idea that the QTL is inconsistent with the rest of Fate sprung out of, besides Melty Blood that I already addressed. It's literally what the Crypters are against in the lostbelt. These guys are pissed what gives it the power to decide which world is better and based on which set of criterias, decided that X world need pruning and Y world not. It is precisely because the reason to prune worlds is not "they are so shitty they must be gone forever" but "they are pruned because the universe don't have enough energy to support infinite worlds" that the Crypter disagreed with, and they rebelled against the system.
The fact that the FGO world itself couldn't see a future past 100 years meant it was ultimately going to be pruned and Chaldea was founded to prevent that. Goetia's play was not just to destroy human history, but completely burn down the system so the unjust system would be removed and he could remake a better world for humanity.
Also now that I read Paul's comment again, I'm curious where this idea that the QTL is inconsistent with the rest of Fate sprung out of, besides Melty Blood that I already addressed. It's literally what the Crypters are against in the lostbelt. These guys are pissed what gives it the power to decide which world is better and based on which set of criterias, decided that X world need pruning and Y world not. It is precisely because the reason to prune worlds is not "they are so shitty they must be gone forever" but "they are pruned because the universe don't have enough energy to support infinite worlds" that the Crypter disagreed with, and they rebelled against the system.
The fact that the FGO world itself couldn't see a future past 100 years meant it was ultimately going to be pruned and Chaldea was founded to prevent that. Goetia's play was not just to destroy human history, but completely burn down the system so the unjust system would be removed and he could remake a better world for humanity.
- 9,524
- 1,789
It wasn't that qtls are inconsistent it's that the idea of there not being enough energy to sustain infinite universes is inconsistent with the fact we are told multiple times that there are infinite universes
But besides that let me get your argument straight. You are arguing that the infinite parallel worlds that were going to be pruned, the alternate worlds that Archimedes traveled through, the alternate worlds the second magic uses etc. You are saying all of those are actually a single universe and not multiple universes despite what is said throughout the series.
But besides that let me get your argument straight. You are arguing that the infinite parallel worlds that were going to be pruned, the alternate worlds that Archimedes traveled through, the alternate worlds the second magic uses etc. You are saying all of those are actually a single universe and not multiple universes despite what is said throughout the series.
- 98
- 29
Again, Nasu uses the word "mugen" (infinite) a lot, or rather it's not just him but the other authors also sometimes use that word. BB talks about how you have infinite time to think over things, Tamamo's NP is supposed to give you infinite HP and mana, one of Saint George's skill gives him infinite defence while defending others, Charlamagne says it in his attack dialogues, etc. Most cases are not literally infnite, timelines is just one example. You're even give lore to explain why they aren't infinite, entire stories and plots revolving around the fact that they are not infinite. So are Goetia, Chaldea, Archimedes, the Crypters and everyone in FGO 1 & 2 as well as Extella supposed to be poor clueless souls?
That's because we already went through what a world entails in Camelot, keep seeing examples of parallel worlds that are either compiled or pruned in FGO, the trichiliocosm itself is compared with all parallel worlds when it is universal, the fact that Nasu uses uchuu (cosmos) and sekai (world) interchangably - this part was explained by Mizukume in the post John linked. You even selectively cite that Archimedes travelled through alternate worlds, but completely ignore why he did that. This is what threw me off.
That's because we already went through what a world entails in Camelot, keep seeing examples of parallel worlds that are either compiled or pruned in FGO, the trichiliocosm itself is compared with all parallel worlds when it is universal, the fact that Nasu uses uchuu (cosmos) and sekai (world) interchangably - this part was explained by Mizukume in the post John linked. You even selectively cite that Archimedes travelled through alternate worlds, but completely ignore why he did that. This is what threw me off.
- 9,524
- 1,789
>You're even given lore to explain why they aren't infinite, entire stories and plots revolving around the fact that they are not infinite. So are Goetia, Chaldea, Archimedes, the Crypters and everyone in FGO 1 & 2 as well as Extella supposed to be poor clueless souls?
Funny you mention Goetia and Chaldea because they straight up say there are infinite possibilites, supporting the notion of infinite parallel worlds. Culling timelines doesn't mean it's not infinite. Infinite - 700000000 is still infinite for example especially considering the fact that the number of possibilites isn't stagnate but increases as well.
So yes you are saying that the alternate worlds/universes that the second magic uses, the worlds Archimedes traveled through to avoid the timelocks being instated, the alternate worlds that were being pruned and the lostbelts which are straight up stated to be timelines designated for removal are in fact all a single universe. I hope you realize that this doesn't make sense. You are saying that the alternate worlds are all a single universe but contain different timelines.
Funny you mention Goetia and Chaldea because they straight up say there are infinite possibilites, supporting the notion of infinite parallel worlds. Culling timelines doesn't mean it's not infinite. Infinite - 700000000 is still infinite for example especially considering the fact that the number of possibilites isn't stagnate but increases as well.
So yes you are saying that the alternate worlds/universes that the second magic uses, the worlds Archimedes traveled through to avoid the timelocks being instated, the alternate worlds that were being pruned and the lostbelts which are straight up stated to be timelines designated for removal are in fact all a single universe. I hope you realize that this doesn't make sense. You are saying that the alternate worlds are all a single universe but contain different timelines.
- 98
- 29
Anyways, I'm done over here, I've made all the points that needed to be said. I initially said people can keep the 2A if they don't care about story consistency, which will inevitably result with problems in future scaling, as well as people dismissing established lore without doing any research. It's going to be a mess. These are the only things I take issue with. I'll leave it upto the other members to decide.
- 6,300
- 1,599
I just want to say. Something everyone missed something important. During altera route, far beyond the first 5 minutes. The main character uses the regalia to search all parrallel world's for Archimedes, and it turns out even world's that are no longer parallel. World's that are quantum timelocked also have their own Multiverse stemming from them. The main character explains this. I will grab those scans when I get home
- 16,606
- 1,788
- Thread starter
- #151
Oh shit lol
- 2,355
- 270
1. We are rating it as 2-A because the Moon Cell contains infinite amount of timelines within its Core, which BB swallowed and that's the beginning of scaling chain. Not because of those things you mentioned.
2. You are equating it on a false basis, therefore you end up with a false conclusion.
3. Again, I don't know what you're trying to say.
4. Neither "world" nor "cosmos" have anything to do with this.
5. It is not selective bias. It is called researching and reviewing. One thing has been constant in all other works and it's being contradicted in Extella. Why would you conclude that Extella is correct and all other works wrong? We are specifically careful and choose the more consistent idea.
2. You are equating it on a false basis, therefore you end up with a false conclusion.
3. Again, I don't know what you're trying to say.
4. Neither "world" nor "cosmos" have anything to do with this.
5. It is not selective bias. It is called researching and reviewing. One thing has been constant in all other works and it's being contradicted in Extella. Why would you conclude that Extella is correct and all other works wrong? We are specifically careful and choose the more consistent idea.
- 6,300
- 1,599
Worlds that are "No longer parrallel." [1] These Worlds are what get Quantum Timelocked. However, moments (it can be planck seconds) before a Timelock happens. That universe that is "No Longer Parrallel" is still producing possibilities [2]. However, Those possibilities are tied to that timeline. It is that timelines future, and not the future of the main trunk. Using Archimedes metaphore, The Main Trunk can be Infinite. [3] He doens't say the Main Trunk of the tree is limited. He only says that worlds that are "No longer parrallel" are contained by the system. The other Multiverses that are expanded off the worlds that are "no longer parrallel" is what there is no spare energy for. Those Separate Multiverses are killed off, and their futures closed off. [4] Megaverse level BB
As for the Mooncell, Se.Ra.Ph by itself is a Multiverse. [5]
Archimedes is a digital being that can only manifest within the Mooncell. Physically, him moving between worlds is impossible. Sliding into another worlds present is easy, but puts intense stress on the digital information body. Sliding into another worlds past is entirely different [6] [7]
Altera Was temporally earsed from that Quantum Timelocked Multiverse [8]
The MC sent his memories to another parrallel worlds, past. THIS HAPPEND IN THE MOONCELl!! He sent his memories back to the very moment when his mind, body, and soul split. Which happend in the Mooncell! [9]
Important teminiology. Variant futures, and many futures = Other worlds [10]
And the Mooncell contains many "If-futures" and "future histores" [11]
Also, Rin tells that Imaginary Number Space is an 4th dimensional space [12]. We later get confirmation that its its infinite in size. [13] And there is multiple layers in Imaginary Number Space with that entire side of Moon is already higher dimensional. [14] We have multiple Infinite sized 4th dimensional spaces. This wiki already treats data as being 3D. 1 higher dimension above that is 4D which can vary based on the verses cosmology.
Some velbar stuff besides he stole some worlds. Velbar after he made himself inside the Mooncell. he created his own Infinitely large space called "The Zero Dark" With is time being as infintie as the space itself. With Time already being established as the 4th dimension for the nasuverse. [15]
Also, Velbar used the Mooncell after hacking it to create his own Spirtron World within the Mooncell itself [16] This is important terminology because back in Altera Route with Archimedes, he did use the term Spiritron World to describe the worlds of the Multiverse. [17]
Velbar then used the data it stole from the Mooncell to create a real physical body on earth [18] Which turned out to be the white titan. [19] [20]
For all other counterarguments, and other scans i haven't used. Please refer to these links on this comment [21]
If you have a problem with the rating/tier. Monarch Laciel made it clear that he would carefully go through everything posted. He is also knowlegable on the Nasuverse. He has participated in many of those threads before. it would be best to discuss a downgrade with him, and not in a private chat because that will start a riot.
He also made it abundantly clear on a hostile thread that he still agrees with the 2-A rating for the Mooncell which scales only to BB. I will admit (Me, myself, Mr. UpgradeMa), i disagree alot with the scaling chain since most of Grand order is being scaled with Kiara and i see some faults with it. That is why on the original thread, i highly recommended that Grand Order Scaling chain be scaled by different feats such as Tiamat existing throughout all space-time, or through Goetia. [22]
As for the Mooncell, Se.Ra.Ph by itself is a Multiverse. [5]
Archimedes is a digital being that can only manifest within the Mooncell. Physically, him moving between worlds is impossible. Sliding into another worlds present is easy, but puts intense stress on the digital information body. Sliding into another worlds past is entirely different [6] [7]
Altera Was temporally earsed from that Quantum Timelocked Multiverse [8]
The MC sent his memories to another parrallel worlds, past. THIS HAPPEND IN THE MOONCELl!! He sent his memories back to the very moment when his mind, body, and soul split. Which happend in the Mooncell! [9]
Important teminiology. Variant futures, and many futures = Other worlds [10]
And the Mooncell contains many "If-futures" and "future histores" [11]
Also, Rin tells that Imaginary Number Space is an 4th dimensional space [12]. We later get confirmation that its its infinite in size. [13] And there is multiple layers in Imaginary Number Space with that entire side of Moon is already higher dimensional. [14] We have multiple Infinite sized 4th dimensional spaces. This wiki already treats data as being 3D. 1 higher dimension above that is 4D which can vary based on the verses cosmology.
Some velbar stuff besides he stole some worlds. Velbar after he made himself inside the Mooncell. he created his own Infinitely large space called "The Zero Dark" With is time being as infintie as the space itself. With Time already being established as the 4th dimension for the nasuverse. [15]
Also, Velbar used the Mooncell after hacking it to create his own Spirtron World within the Mooncell itself [16] This is important terminology because back in Altera Route with Archimedes, he did use the term Spiritron World to describe the worlds of the Multiverse. [17]
Velbar then used the data it stole from the Mooncell to create a real physical body on earth [18] Which turned out to be the white titan. [19] [20]
For all other counterarguments, and other scans i haven't used. Please refer to these links on this comment [21]
If you have a problem with the rating/tier. Monarch Laciel made it clear that he would carefully go through everything posted. He is also knowlegable on the Nasuverse. He has participated in many of those threads before. it would be best to discuss a downgrade with him, and not in a private chat because that will start a riot.
- "Technically I confirmed I would comment on the other fate revision thread but yeah I'll get to this one too soon-ish. I've just been rather busy recently." - Monarch Laciel [1]
- "Ok having read through all of this I agree with 2-A, I have no clue about scaling don't ask me." - Monarch Laciel [2]
He also made it abundantly clear on a hostile thread that he still agrees with the 2-A rating for the Mooncell which scales only to BB. I will admit (Me, myself, Mr. UpgradeMa), i disagree alot with the scaling chain since most of Grand order is being scaled with Kiara and i see some faults with it. That is why on the original thread, i highly recommended that Grand Order Scaling chain be scaled by different feats such as Tiamat existing throughout all space-time, or through Goetia. [22]
- 2,153
- 307
1. "Worlds that are no longer parallel" seems to talk about the worlds that are too different from ours here, not ones designated for Time Lock.
2. The 2nd scans seems to just talk about how you can go to another timeline before the Timelock goes off.
3. Now, this can be interpreted in 2 ways: (1) It's just created as a composite of all universes (2) SE.RA.PH. is actually a multiverse-sized structure, which can boost how far they are from baseline
2. The 2nd scans seems to just talk about how you can go to another timeline before the Timelock goes off.
3. Now, this can be interpreted in 2 ways: (1) It's just created as a composite of all universes (2) SE.RA.PH. is actually a multiverse-sized structure, which can boost how far they are from baseline
- 6,300
- 1,599
"Worlds that are no longer parallel" create their own timelines from themselves, but timelocking the 1 timeline that started that multiverse affects the branching timelines. Those timelines that will eventually become timelocked, and are "Not parallel" have their own branched off multiverse
as for the SE.RA.PH thing, im more inclined to the 2nd. The 1st seems illogical, and considering The Mooncell has other Infinite sized 4th dimesnional spaces. It would make sense if it was. I also believe all of extella took place on Se.Ra.ph?
the 2nd scan is showing that the "Not parrallel worlds" are still producing their own possibilities, which are other timelines, so basically creating its own multiverse centered around the future of that timeline instead of the Main Trunk fo the Tree.
as for the SE.RA.PH thing, im more inclined to the 2nd. The 1st seems illogical, and considering The Mooncell has other Infinite sized 4th dimesnional spaces. It would make sense if it was. I also believe all of extella took place on Se.Ra.ph?
the 2nd scan is showing that the "Not parrallel worlds" are still producing their own possibilities, which are other timelines, so basically creating its own multiverse centered around the future of that timeline instead of the Main Trunk fo the Tree.
- 98
- 29
Yeah, I was considering to bow out of this conversation, but there were a few things I didn't properly address earlier, and with each adjacent world or SE.RA.PH being declared multiversal now, it's even more silly.
Let's lay some foundations, start with the basics. First Quantum-Time-Lock is a universal event as we can see from Extella materials.
This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.
It is mainly concerned with the energy or lifespan of the universe that holds these parallel worlds.
However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worldsroutes (õ©ûþòî Òâ½Òâ╝Òâê, sekairu-to?) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (õ╝ɵÄí, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.
These adjacent/parallel worlds are not entire universes unto themselves. Else they would have their own QTL. If you check the beginning of Altera's route (Localization), you will see Parallel worlds defined as "other versions of Earth and its surroundings":
"Earth scientists have hypothesized the so-called 'parallel worlds,' other versions of Earth and its surroundings, expanding indefinitely like mirrored reflections. If true, that would mean that Earth has not only one future, but many. In other words ..."
Then in the non-Localized version it is translated like this:
The World is not one; rather, like a reflection in a pair of opposing mirrors, it infinitely unfolds. Consequently, there cannot exist only a single future -- or so it's thought. In other words --
Which can be cross-confirmed via Camelot that The World has many layers like an Onion.
There is a theory that our world — the human world — is nothing more than one of the textured layers that wrap the surface of the planet, like a carpet.
These parallel worlds exist unto The World itself, which appears to be a macrocosm. Just like the Moon Cell that represents a conceptual universe. The adjacent worlds however, are evidently not universes since their pruning starts at the level of a solar system:
It's a very rough estimation, but should the Earth persist at its present level of civilization for another century, it's likely that the Solar System will collapse.
As these laws exist in the layers of the World, they are only concerned with the possibilities brought forth by humanity. The old mages called the laws Foundation of Humanity based on the Human Order, the principle under which Alaya operates that "humanity must exist for as long as possible." It doesn't care for much else.
And to ensure humanity survives, the one doing pruning is also the World itself:
To a certain extent, the existence known as the World (õ©ûþòîÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÞÇà, Sekai to Iu Mono, lit. "the thing called the World") conducts an audit (þÁ▒Þ¿ê, toukei) of timeline survivability (ÚÇ▓ÒéÇÒü¿ÕÅ»Þ⢵Ǻ, susumu to kanousei, lit. "advance and potential"),
Coming to the Moon Cell now, those parallel world are stored by observing the Foundation of Humanity itself:
The Moon Cell is, in a manner of speaking, an eye that observes the Earth.
A processor that faithfully simulates all life on Earth and is capable of providing a definite prediction of the future.
A database of humanity. A massive memory recording their habits, history, ideas, even their souls. Originally it was an observation device left behind by an alien civilization. It had only recorded the nature of life on Earth, but after many years it came to possess its current abilities. - Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: Moon Cell [Circumstances], p.212-213
'And so, there is a set time frame in which these branches are trimmed, extra possibilities are removed, and future histories, once fluid, turn to stone. The mages of the old world called this time frame 'the Foundation of Humanity. Such laws apply to the Moon Cell as well. The Moon Cell is a self-upgrading observatory, which continues to record every incident and possibility on Earth. ' - Fate Extella Altera route prologue (Localization).
The spiriton worlds in the Moon Cell are the same. They are not singlehandedly worth multiverses based only on the word "parallel world" that you seem to be doing.
Regarding the scans, I will only address a few because I feel it's unnecessary after making the main point.
3. As it does not threaten the limited energy scarcity of the Universe, the main branch is not infinite.
4. It's more like Humanity just dies there, or some catastrophe hits them.
5. SE.RA.PH is a compilation of Reality Marbles that mimic the Earth, but it also takes inspiration from others. This is just talking about the design and values. Last Encore scripts makes it conceptual planet at most, hence the poster was also a planet. It's why you see that one Earth-like planet lot in CCC.
13. You're confusing Imaginary Number Space as an element with the dimension on the Far side. What BB did is not much different from what Sakura did, only at a bigger scale
15. This seems contradictory. Whether this is used to scale the Moon Cell, I don't think that's reliable as this supposed to be out of the Moon Cell's reach and by extension, that one character who merged with it.
21. No disagreements besides just two points. I'm also saying the Moon Cell does its own QTL on spiriton worlds like the World. However, I am actually using the scales given while you seem to be just trying to make the cyberworld as large as possible.
Let's lay some foundations, start with the basics. First Quantum-Time-Lock is a universal event as we can see from Extella materials.
This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.
It is mainly concerned with the energy or lifespan of the universe that holds these parallel worlds.
However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worldsroutes (õ©ûþòî Òâ½Òâ╝Òâê, sekairu-to?) removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled (õ╝ɵÄí, basai, lit. "cull" / "prune"), so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.
These adjacent/parallel worlds are not entire universes unto themselves. Else they would have their own QTL. If you check the beginning of Altera's route (Localization), you will see Parallel worlds defined as "other versions of Earth and its surroundings":
"Earth scientists have hypothesized the so-called 'parallel worlds,' other versions of Earth and its surroundings, expanding indefinitely like mirrored reflections. If true, that would mean that Earth has not only one future, but many. In other words ..."
Then in the non-Localized version it is translated like this:
The World is not one; rather, like a reflection in a pair of opposing mirrors, it infinitely unfolds. Consequently, there cannot exist only a single future -- or so it's thought. In other words --
Which can be cross-confirmed via Camelot that The World has many layers like an Onion.
There is a theory that our world — the human world — is nothing more than one of the textured layers that wrap the surface of the planet, like a carpet.
These parallel worlds exist unto The World itself, which appears to be a macrocosm. Just like the Moon Cell that represents a conceptual universe. The adjacent worlds however, are evidently not universes since their pruning starts at the level of a solar system:
It's a very rough estimation, but should the Earth persist at its present level of civilization for another century, it's likely that the Solar System will collapse.
As these laws exist in the layers of the World, they are only concerned with the possibilities brought forth by humanity. The old mages called the laws Foundation of Humanity based on the Human Order, the principle under which Alaya operates that "humanity must exist for as long as possible." It doesn't care for much else.
And to ensure humanity survives, the one doing pruning is also the World itself:
To a certain extent, the existence known as the World (õ©ûþòîÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÞÇà, Sekai to Iu Mono, lit. "the thing called the World") conducts an audit (þÁ▒Þ¿ê, toukei) of timeline survivability (ÚÇ▓ÒéÇÒü¿ÕÅ»Þ⢵Ǻ, susumu to kanousei, lit. "advance and potential"),
Coming to the Moon Cell now, those parallel world are stored by observing the Foundation of Humanity itself:
The Moon Cell is, in a manner of speaking, an eye that observes the Earth.
A processor that faithfully simulates all life on Earth and is capable of providing a definite prediction of the future.
A database of humanity. A massive memory recording their habits, history, ideas, even their souls. Originally it was an observation device left behind by an alien civilization. It had only recorded the nature of life on Earth, but after many years it came to possess its current abilities. - Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: Moon Cell [Circumstances], p.212-213
'And so, there is a set time frame in which these branches are trimmed, extra possibilities are removed, and future histories, once fluid, turn to stone. The mages of the old world called this time frame 'the Foundation of Humanity. Such laws apply to the Moon Cell as well. The Moon Cell is a self-upgrading observatory, which continues to record every incident and possibility on Earth. ' - Fate Extella Altera route prologue (Localization).
The spiriton worlds in the Moon Cell are the same. They are not singlehandedly worth multiverses based only on the word "parallel world" that you seem to be doing.
Regarding the scans, I will only address a few because I feel it's unnecessary after making the main point.
3. As it does not threaten the limited energy scarcity of the Universe, the main branch is not infinite.
4. It's more like Humanity just dies there, or some catastrophe hits them.
5. SE.RA.PH is a compilation of Reality Marbles that mimic the Earth, but it also takes inspiration from others. This is just talking about the design and values. Last Encore scripts makes it conceptual planet at most, hence the poster was also a planet. It's why you see that one Earth-like planet lot in CCC.
13. You're confusing Imaginary Number Space as an element with the dimension on the Far side. What BB did is not much different from what Sakura did, only at a bigger scale
15. This seems contradictory. Whether this is used to scale the Moon Cell, I don't think that's reliable as this supposed to be out of the Moon Cell's reach and by extension, that one character who merged with it.
21. No disagreements besides just two points. I'm also saying the Moon Cell does its own QTL on spiriton worlds like the World. However, I am actually using the scales given while you seem to be just trying to make the cyberworld as large as possible.
- 6,300
- 1,599
Your using every bit out of context scan, and not correlated things, you can in a mass attempt to downgrade? Anyone can read my scans, which i encourage people do look at my scans, and very very carefully read over what i said. It takes only a little bit reading comprehension to connect the dots.
The main branch is stated to be as tall as it needs by archimedes. It is the branched off universes, and then Multiverses that cause the dimension to have problems. There is only enough energy for the main multiverse
where is it stated that in OFFICIAL nasuverse documents that Se.Ra.Ph is filled with reality marbles? on Type-Moon wiki its unsourced, and therefore can not be fact-checked/Verified. [1]
We already established that Last Encore is not canon, or connected to CCC, and Extella therefore unrelated to BB, and CCC version of the Mooncell.
What is contradictory?
I am actually posting scans that directly state the Mooncell has Parrallel worlds, and on the previous thread i shown that it is a system management device that can control the future which cocincide with the whole process of "Culling/Pruning" which i even linked those arguements.
For the staff that has not been on, or seen this thread yet, or is just observing it. I implore you to carefully read over my scans, and every link i sent. Carefully read my counter arguments.
There is people that manipulate context on the Nasuverse because of its unique Complex Terminology for things an example of this is "Layers" and "Textures." The Far Side of The Moon actually has over 4 different names. These are things only those who invest in the franchise will understand, and know about.
The verse is extremely complex in this regard, and can become confusing, and that makes it easy for people to take advanatage of and manipulate context.
Hence, the reason im putting emphasis on reading my scans, links, and counter arguements/points. Which have the needed material to fact check them if needed. The screenshots, and links i shown speak for themselves.. If the staff reading them have any questions, i will answer them.
The main branch is stated to be as tall as it needs by archimedes. It is the branched off universes, and then Multiverses that cause the dimension to have problems. There is only enough energy for the main multiverse
where is it stated that in OFFICIAL nasuverse documents that Se.Ra.Ph is filled with reality marbles? on Type-Moon wiki its unsourced, and therefore can not be fact-checked/Verified. [1]
We already established that Last Encore is not canon, or connected to CCC, and Extella therefore unrelated to BB, and CCC version of the Mooncell.
What is contradictory?
I am actually posting scans that directly state the Mooncell has Parrallel worlds, and on the previous thread i shown that it is a system management device that can control the future which cocincide with the whole process of "Culling/Pruning" which i even linked those arguements.
For the staff that has not been on, or seen this thread yet, or is just observing it. I implore you to carefully read over my scans, and every link i sent. Carefully read my counter arguments.
There is people that manipulate context on the Nasuverse because of its unique Complex Terminology for things an example of this is "Layers" and "Textures." The Far Side of The Moon actually has over 4 different names. These are things only those who invest in the franchise will understand, and know about.
The verse is extremely complex in this regard, and can become confusing, and that makes it easy for people to take advanatage of and manipulate context.
Hence, the reason im putting emphasis on reading my scans, links, and counter arguements/points. Which have the needed material to fact check them if needed. The screenshots, and links i shown speak for themselves.. If the staff reading them have any questions, i will answer them.
- 98
- 29
You can point out anything that has been taken out of context. Does the Quantum-Time-Lock not occur due to the finite energy of the universe as opposed to what you say is some kind of multiverse? Point it out. Are parallel worlds not described exactly as I have? Point it out. Is it not mentioned that the lack of resources is presented on the level of the solar system? Point it out.
I have no interests in downgrading. The idea that these characters are even remotely close to 2A only exists in places like comicvine, or more recently this website. Nowhere else really.
Supposing that these are full fledging universes are something you added yourself. These are translated as worlds, which have been defined in the nasuverse. The best source is Camelot. I simply added this information now because nobody paid attention when I told them to read the chapter earlier. Anyone who wants to read the whole chapter can do it from here and they may read the material book on Extella as well, which can easily be found from the references of the wiki.
It's from a dialogue in Fate Extra, the more relevant parts are:
Leo: Let's get started. Do you know what a reality marble is?
It's a thaumaturgical technique whereby one space is transformed into a completely different space.
Some Servants are able to generate reality marbles.
As it takes a great deal of energy to sustain a reality marble, most last only a few minutes.
The school that housed prelims happened to be a reality marble generated by the Holy Grail.
Besides the school as it appeared in the prelims, the current school, the Arena, and the Colliseum…
All are individual reality marbles created by the incredible magic of the Holy Grail.
To give you an idea of just how powerful the Holy Grail is…
Even the most advanced supercomputer couldn't sustain one reality marble this length of time.
All participants in the Holy Grail War had their memories wiped out entering.
Then, the Holy Grail's reality marble gave all the participants school personas to inhabit.
Masters had a time limit of four days to realize that they had been tricked into playing a role.
Potential Masters had to pass that basic test to enter into the Holy Grail War.
Better just read the whole thing.
When was it established that Last Encore is not canon? It's fair to say it is not connected to CCC, but I have never heard someone say something absurd like it's not "canon". The information from the Last Encore script is completely canon. The series was made to be an entry to the Extra series.
Infinitely large and infinitely small? I thought that was obvious. I meant it seemed unreliable to use that to size up the Zero Dark zone.
Rather interesting that you're accusing me of "manipulating" context and taking advantage of the terminology without telling us what is being manipulated. Those are some scandalous claims. Well then, I'll allow you to explain these concepts yourself.
I have no interests in downgrading. The idea that these characters are even remotely close to 2A only exists in places like comicvine, or more recently this website. Nowhere else really.
Supposing that these are full fledging universes are something you added yourself. These are translated as worlds, which have been defined in the nasuverse. The best source is Camelot. I simply added this information now because nobody paid attention when I told them to read the chapter earlier. Anyone who wants to read the whole chapter can do it from here and they may read the material book on Extella as well, which can easily be found from the references of the wiki.
It's from a dialogue in Fate Extra, the more relevant parts are:
Leo: Let's get started. Do you know what a reality marble is?
It's a thaumaturgical technique whereby one space is transformed into a completely different space.
Some Servants are able to generate reality marbles.
As it takes a great deal of energy to sustain a reality marble, most last only a few minutes.
The school that housed prelims happened to be a reality marble generated by the Holy Grail.
Besides the school as it appeared in the prelims, the current school, the Arena, and the Colliseum…
All are individual reality marbles created by the incredible magic of the Holy Grail.
To give you an idea of just how powerful the Holy Grail is…
Even the most advanced supercomputer couldn't sustain one reality marble this length of time.
All participants in the Holy Grail War had their memories wiped out entering.
Then, the Holy Grail's reality marble gave all the participants school personas to inhabit.
Masters had a time limit of four days to realize that they had been tricked into playing a role.
Potential Masters had to pass that basic test to enter into the Holy Grail War.
Better just read the whole thing.
When was it established that Last Encore is not canon? It's fair to say it is not connected to CCC, but I have never heard someone say something absurd like it's not "canon". The information from the Last Encore script is completely canon. The series was made to be an entry to the Extra series.
Infinitely large and infinitely small? I thought that was obvious. I meant it seemed unreliable to use that to size up the Zero Dark zone.
Rather interesting that you're accusing me of "manipulating" context and taking advantage of the terminology without telling us what is being manipulated. Those are some scandalous claims. Well then, I'll allow you to explain these concepts yourself.
- 32,343
- 20,268
Hun makes the most sense here. Even if the Moon Cell is Multiversal it's an outlier anyway.
- 6,300
- 1,599
I am currently not avaliable to answer all that in length also, id like to point out that in many material books these "Textrues" and "Layers" are separated by a clearly defined border. Astolfo's NP description of Hippograff tells us that, and so does Tsukihime Material book.
This is clearly an issue with a not so well established cosmology, which re-affirms that scaling should be Mooncell only in my opinion. The Mooncell has a well established Multiverse as i have shown in length with the great deal of comments i made on the span over 4 threads. The Mooncell having at least 1 multiverse is a re-occuring theme, as my scans tell us.
This is becoming Ad Nausem to me. However, outside of the Mooncell. There is a conflict with Cosmology not because we are misunderstanding it but because there is so many contradictions.
This is clearly an issue with a not so well established cosmology, which re-affirms that scaling should be Mooncell only in my opinion. The Mooncell has a well established Multiverse as i have shown in length with the great deal of comments i made on the span over 4 threads. The Mooncell having at least 1 multiverse is a re-occuring theme, as my scans tell us.
This is becoming Ad Nausem to me. However, outside of the Mooncell. There is a conflict with Cosmology not because we are misunderstanding it but because there is so many contradictions.
