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2-A Nasuverse revision

Can you show us some if these "various translations" thar differs from each other?

Btw even Fate/Apocrypha mats tells us of these layers/worlds.
 
Fate/Apoc mats tells us the exact opposite actually

"the Hippogriff can jump over to a different dimension, though only for an instant.
That dimension is the home of the Phantasmal Species, where only beings that are purely non-physical souls can go to. It is the Reverse Side of the World" - [1]

For anyone new entering the disuccussion - I recommend reading the scans for yourselves before taking anyone's points at face value. If there is any questions just ask.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3400381#153 https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3390788#187

And there is a knowlegable member, an admins that made his stance very clear.

  • "Technically I confirmed I would comment on the other fate revision thread but yeah I'll get to this one too soon-ish. I've just been rather busy recently." - Monarch Laciel [1]
  • "Ok having read through all of this I agree with 2-A, I have no clue about scaling don't ask me." - Monarch Laciel [2]"

    *"I looked through the information and arguments presented to me on that thread, I watched the videos and I read through the scans, and I came to the conclusion that yes, there were infinite actual universes with their own space-time within the mooncell. BB's own rating did not come into it for me." - Monarch Laciel [2]
 
Yeah and did you bother reading the Reverse Side of the World section from NanoDesu or even tmdict?

  • The place where the evil dragon Fafnir finally arrived at the very end of the novels. The Phantasmal Races, having understood that the Age of the Gods was over, ceded the Earth's surface to humans and moved to this place. The world where humans currently live (including the laws of physics) is like a fabric that thinly extends across the surface of the planet. Beneath that fabric exist the planet known as "Earth." On the other hand, the Reverse Side of the World is the world as it was before humans lived there… that is, the fabric of the era where Phantasmal Races strode the land. In other words, the Earth is the bottommost layer of the planet, and it is covered by the "Reverse Side of the World"—the place where the laws of the "world" as it once was reigns, and covering that is the "Present World."
 
What's contradictory about the world having layers/textures? It's the way Nasu wrote it.

And even the FGO english translation that you claim is different actually establish that the world does have textures.

It's kinda silly how you claim someone is manipulating context when it looks like you're the one who's twisting it going just by your responses over the concept of these textures/layers
 
please give me some time to respond. im currently suffering from medical issues, and other irl stuff.

I will explain why these layers are complicated, and very contradictory.

Also, the don't apply to the Mooncell. So, why are we debating this?
 
Kinda weird when thinking about it, they seem to retcon about universal level powers post CCC in the later works, then recently bring it up again in FGO (which actually has happened since CCC event then Salem singularity, then Kama and Arjuna Alter)
 
I'm 99% sure that Reality Marble Layers not being real universes are one of the longest established things in Vs Debating community.
 
This is true, things like UBW and Ionian Hetairoi being universal isn't accepted by most normal people

But the "Layers" that people talk about when referring to things like the reverse side and human world of observation do indeed contain universes considering the human world is the entire universe
 
RMs if compared to other franchises, are like the kekkai in Bleach that most of the time look like wasteland, that usually used in the series for training, or whatever it was called.
 
Ok so the argument for downgrading has changed from "the entire multiverse that contains multiple timelines is actually just a single universe" to "it's just a reality marble" is this correct?

If so I hope the people supporting the arguments realize how poor they are. The first argument is completely illogical while the second one is slightly more logical although not entirely accurate as the whole layers/texture system does not apply to the mooncell at all which is what this scales off of.

Before just saying "I think (insert name here) makes the most sense." Everyone should read the scans and arguments provided by both sides over the course of like 4 threads at this point
 
John985 said:
link on reddit here

>An RM has an indefinite size, true, but I wouldn't call it an outright universe in the normal sense of the word

Yes, that is if you go by the western definition. But Nasu is Asian, and his cosmology and philosophy are influenced a lot by Asian viewpoints. Õ«çÕ«Ö (uchuu, the universe) in the Western viewpoint is the space where our planet is. But in Eastern philosophy, the term's usage is to refer to "the infinite space and time". In that regard, any "space without limit" is an uchuu, regardless of its scale compare to the physical universe in the science sense of the word. That's why a sekai is an uchuu and that's why the space within Solomon's RM or Kiara are uchuus.
Click to expand...
 
Idk, it just somehow led to RMs. Either way, RM is not the same as an actual universe. One can bust out of just by vast magical powers.

For the universes arguments though... It's really complex. High end tiers like Kiara. Altjuna, BB and others are no doubt universal tiers with their feats and narrations about them. But for multiverses though... I don't know how it works here, really. Just saying that, Kama destroying the universe if she becomes full Beast is also her destroying the entire main timeline. So if Kama/Mara did that, it would not be only the timeline where she is in at that moment, but the parallel timelines that also included as the Pan Human History or can simply called the mains timelines would go up into ashes too. Arjuna Alter God destroys then recreates the universe he is in like nothing for like every week. BB said uchu when she said she will bust the universe. The word uchü will be the first word you will find when searching about universe in japanese, and so on...

For me, being hyperdimensional =/= multiversal. Iirc there are other characters outside Nasuverse that can be above 3 or 4D, but can be barely called a multiversal, or even universal powerhouse.
 
The main issue here seems to be that since alot of the people outside of the mooncell only have universal feats, them scaling to the mooncell people has caused people to doubt the rating despite the same scaling being used for the longest time before 2-A.
 
I don't see much problem about it though. High end tiers in FGO like Kama and Arjuna Alter have already shown feats at the same levels of Extra high end tiers like i said. Even Foreigner Abigail would have ended everything too if she wasn't stopped in Salem, because Yog oto san would come into the universe and eats everything up, just saying.
 
Paul Frank said:
The main issue here seems to be that since alot of the people outside of the mooncell only have universal feats, them scaling to the mooncell people has caused people to doubt the rating despite the same scaling being used for the longest time before 2-A.
Click to expand...
Let's keep it simple, Servants in regular circumstances can get to Universal but the Heroic Spirits in the Moon Cell are simply stroger than their regular counterparts. Since what powers them in the Moon Cell is not the same as what powers them regularly

Like Regular Artoria and Moon Cell Artoria (Just as a example)
 
For me it's more like being in the Moon Cell is just less restricted than in the real world. It's somewhat confirmed that everybody in the real world is restricted by the Counter Force either by power restrictions, threats etc since both Alaya and Gaia don't like it of the world goes busted (in LBs Counter Force is almost, if not already dead, because both humanity and the world is put into the coffin or rendered useless like in China LB). Moon Cell also somewhat provides mana to everyone indefinitely, probably because the damn computer doesn't give much damn about what is happening in.

Regular Artoria depends on which. Arty with Shirou was just the worst. And actually, Earth Artoria and Moon Artoria should be just the same.
 
Makkurona said:
For me it's more like being in the Moon Cell is just less restricted than in the real world. It's somewhat confirmed that everybody in the real world is restricted by the Counter Force either by power restrictions, threats etc since both Alaya and Gaia don't like it of the world goes busted (in LBs Counter Force is almost, if not already dead, because both humanity and the world is put into the coffin or rendered useless like in China LB). Moon Cell also somewhat provides mana to everyone indefinitely, probably because the damn computer doesn't give much damn about what is happening in.

Regular Artoria depends on which. Arty with Shirou was just the worst. And actually, Earth Artoria and Moon Artoria should be just the same.
Click to expand...
Well yeah like that. Mostly in terms of feats

Considering the last point Moon Artoria would still be stronger than Earth Artoia specifically because she's less restricted even if they would have the same master with the difference being the place they're in
 
ÔÇïÔÇïÔÇïÔÇïÔÇïÔÇïI am going to give this 2 final comments. I swear if people ignore the context. I am telling you (to everyone that is not invested in the nausverse most particualarly the mooncell) No one will understand this. The only way any staff member will understand anything of the Mooncell is if they invest the time to go through it. Monarch proposed BB upgrades before, and partook in past nasuverse threads, also thinks of himself being fairly knowledgable.

Anyways, Regarding these layers.

The layers aren't something 1,000 legues below the ground. It isn't that simple. You know what else is below your very feet in the nasuverse? Separated by a thin layer? AVALON IS!

You know what dimension avalon exist in right? Its a 6th dimensional zone.

  • "It is a Noble Phantasm at the level of magic, that completely shuts out all physical interference, transliners from parallel worlds, and communication from other dimensions (up to the sixth).
    If Saber secludes herself with this, none will be able to reach her." [1]
Here is also what doesn't make sense about these layers as well.

  • "The Hippogriff that Astolfo rides is a "Phantasmal Beast" in the true sense, since its very existence is uncertain. As a result, when it is released as a Noble Phantasm, the Hippogriff can jump over to a different dimension, though only for an instant.
    That dimension is the home of the Phantasmal Species, where only beings that are purely non-physical souls can go to. It is the Reverse Side of the World    ." [2]
You know what else is a non-physical soul in the Nasuverse? The spirit world. Which is incredibly complex.

  • "Imagination Realization. As the name suggests, it is the ability to manifest anything you can imagine.
    It is the ability possessed by elementals, which are the sense of touch of the natural world. By connecting their will directly to the world, they are able to transfigure the world into whatever environment they imagine. Of course, the level of manifestation varies depending on the scale of the elemental, and it goes without saying that only nature can be transfigured—things that exist independently of nature are immune.
    In Tsukihime, Arcueid eliminated Roa by using marble phantasm to turn the layers of the atmosphere in the hallway into a vacuum, like a carving knife slicing up a daikon radish. Though she could not affect Roa himself, it was impossible for him to avoid the finely sliced atmosphere, and he was reduced to nothing but ankles. (The gap above the floor was the result of a deficiency in Arcueid's imagination.)
    Also, in the world of Tsukihime spiritual realms are not alternate dimensions, but rather exist within the world itself. Things like legendary lands and countries of eternal spring are the products of the imagination of whatever elemental rules over them. Consequently, it is possible for humans to wander into them by accident.
    The castle in the mountains that Arcueid calls home is actually a product of her marble phantasm    ." [3]
Does this mean we have a 6th Dimensional Earth? It shouldn't because it makes no sense at all. These layers are contradictory.

  • Avalon is a Texture/Layer, and is 6th dimensional
  • Hippogriff jumped the Border from the reverse side to Astolfo
  • Some How they aren't separated at all, but are spiritual realms that exist within the world itelse
Also, people are using that Camelot arc, but they missed something the "Laws of physics" this is a direct reference to the transisitons of the Age of Gods into the Age of Man. The Age of Magic turns into the Age of Science due to the decline of mystery, mana, and magic because ya know our boi Romani earsed himself.


Edit: Im tired and going to bed soon. So, my last final comment of a wall of text that is important information before i unfollow this thread, i will wait to do

Heres more Avalon stuff

"Its name was Avalon ― and it was the sea at the heart of the planet, the seat for the soul of the celestial being called Earth.

"No… that is not the most correct expression to describe such a thing. For this realm is after all set upon both a higher and a lower plane of our world. I would say that it exists in the exact same point and location but off-set by several phases." [[[4]]]

The "Laws of Phyics" Mentioned in Camelot Arc act 14/Chapter 14 is a direct refernece to the Age of Man/Age of Science. No one will understand that unless they really know the nasuverse. This again proves my point that you have to be extremely careful evaluating nasuverse because Terminology like this makes a big difference.
 
I'm not exactly sure how we got onto reality marbles then layers and textures when they are all completely irrelevant to the discussion
 
I reacted to someone about the Mooncell copying layers or something like that


I had a rough day... I'm sorry I offended anyone..
 
I thank God that people like Hun Tiandi are finally bringing sanity and reason into Nasuverse discussions.

2-A BB (where all this comes from) is based on a complete misinterpretation of the Moon Cell's capabilities. Any uses of "infinity" in reference to the Moon Cell are either figurative language or hyperbolic.

Case closed.

Thank you Hun, very cool of you to decimate 2-A Nasuverse like that.
 
After reading all of this, it is quite weird. I mean as if the whole thing in Nasuverse was only planetary even though some things do suggest at universal, recently they went back to total universal again with Kama/Mara that clearly suggests she is an entirely universal threat. So, chars at the tiers of Kama/Mara would clearly be at universal level. But still, the whole thing about 2-A or 2-C is now fuzzy to me.

And, need to remind you all retcons do happen in Nasuverse, which is one of the reason to why this whole fiasco happened in the first place. Iirc the reason why BB got upgraded to 2-A was started when people argue she could breach a 8D barrier structure. And so, it would mean she can operate at 4D and above, and because of that, it led to the possibility to upgrade to higher tiers in here. And because that is the case, chars at the same level to her must be put on the same level too. So... Yeah, quite confusing.
 
There's no 8D Wall being talked about here, except when somebody feel wanky and wants BB to have 1C hax.

2-A came from the Mooncell creating infinite timelines within itself, as shown in Last Encore (as timelines) and other Extra installments (as infinite)
 
Yeah, tbh, i do must say Extella has some, if not lot of inconsistencies. Not saying it's not canon, but it does have inconsistencies. For the timelines thing though, that one is consistent and pretty much one of the basis lore in TM verse. And universe is like i said, with the appearance of Kama and then God Arjuna, it now looks solid that it is universe, not just the Earth or "conceptual universes in the Earth" or smtg like that.
 
You know what dimension avalon exist in right? Its a 6th dimensional zone.

It's not a 6D realm. It's a place that shuts down interference even up to "communication from the sixth dimension". Big difference

Age of Gods met its end due to humanity growing more and more thus taking over the world. Mcjon posted somewhere in BL about that. There's also Reiu short TL of the dialogue between Hakuno and Gilgamesh C.C.C that also affirms this

"Living things have an instinct to adapt their surroundings to something better suited for habitat. Viability, I should say.

This the gods of antiquity lacked. No matter how much energy they wielded, they merely "existed."

In contrast, the viability of humans was exceptional.One by one it was slight, but they had force in sheer numbers and the mean was high.

Though there are no transcendent beings commanding vast Authority among humans, they had a higher level of intelligence than other living things and this was distributed across all.

Meanwhile, no matter how powerful the natural phenomena the gods of the heavens were, the personalities they acquire...Their inventiveness and cognizance were not much different from that of the humans'.

Do you see? Even if omniscient, a god can come to only one conclusion and acquire only one personality.

In that respect, the number of humans was a threat. It was the difference in the magnitude of cognizance...No, in the capacity for change.

Human desires are boundless, relentless, and unrestrained. The world evolves in accordance with those desires.

"If humans continue to breed thus, the rules of the planet will change. There will come a time when it will be no longer necessary for natural phenomena to have gods."
 
Going back to main topic as we have gone too astray. Dowmgrade to 2-C or 2-B still sounds good while still having 2-A haxes. You don't really need to be wholly 2-A to have 2-A haxes, as shown by Blazblue charas. But if the tiers and AP want to stay, alright too, i guess.
 
The thing is 2-A scaling scales from Post-Mooncell BB, who should be 2-A in AP for being the Mooncell itself, but there are those who should scale in Hax only (Buddha and people who just has the Authority, but no proper scaling to people that scaled from BB, may include the CCC Alter Egos too, and maybe Pre-Mooncell BB)
 
Yeah based on Hun we should downgrade things back to 3-A to Low 2-C. All the other high-end feats in the entire Nasuverse are on this level unless you seriously want to take Tamamo's mistranslated boasting as legit.
 
Imo based on all the feats shown here, if you want to downgrade, to 2-B is still acceptable. Since the high end charas here can destroy multi timelines at once.
 
Matt was just FRAing Hun's reason this time around though.

But I need reminder on what the heck was going on while I was offline for some hours, I remember talking about how the universes were in the Mooncell, then when I came back, we're suddenly on the Layers&Reality Marble
 
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