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Unfortunately, I think I have to agree with Ant here. I still feel like they should be upgraded, but there are too little people for me to feel like there's a proper consensus, sadly.
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2-A/Low 1-C Skyfathers and Hell Lords
- Thread starter LordTracer
- Start date
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sooo what happened here ?
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Well, @Sandman31, @LuciferDC099, and @Firestorm808 are likely the only current members who might be knowledgeable enough about this subject to properly evaluate it, and none of them seem particularly interested at the moment.
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a shame indeed, but this thread is of vital importance given how heavily it would affect hte current Marvel ratings.
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I suppose so, but it is extremely hard to get sufficiently deep understanding of Marvel or DC Comics lore to properly analyse and tier it, and I do not want us to fumble around with the ratings without a solid basis. It would most likely make them even more unreliable than currently.
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I'm still 100% against this.
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well you guys are the ones running things here, so if you don't think the upgrades can be applied then they won't go through.
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- Thread starter
- #169
A lot of the people that “gave input” didn’t even address everything in the OP so whatever, I don’t care at this point
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Yeah, it can probably be closed.
Although, I just have one question, I was going through the history of some of the pages and blogs/threads that upgraded Odin, Mephisto, Zeus, etc. to 2-C, and it included scaling them to Dormammu and the like. Does anyone know why that scaling was removed?
Although, I just have one question, I was going through the history of some of the pages and blogs/threads that upgraded Odin, Mephisto, Zeus, etc. to 2-C, and it included scaling them to Dormammu and the like. Does anyone know why that scaling was removed?
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Dormammu became much stronger over the years to a point he scales higher than Odin
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While Dormammu has received plenty of permanent amps, even in Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #1 he said Odin rivaled him in power. He already had 2-A feats decades before said amps, such as the statement that he'll destroy the Dark Dimension (which is listed on his page).
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I'll post the Dormammu and Doctor Strange scaling later today.
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As there is a lot of history with Odin, Dormammu, and Dr. Strange, it's taking longer than expected to go through the connecting feats. However, I would like to ask about the statements previously brought up. Considering the time gaps and the various authors between statements, we should look into how much influence said author has with respect to the hero groups.
- Doctor Strange Vol 1 #173, October 1968 by Roy Thomas
- Dormammu says he's stronger than Satannish.
- Thor Vol 1 #181, October 1970 by Stan Lee
- In his realm, Mephisto considers himself equal to Odin
- Avengers Vol 1 #115, September 1973 by Steve Englehart
- Odin considers Dormammu on par with Loki
- Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme Vol 1 #1, November 1988 by Peter B. Gillis
- Dormammu considers himself equal to Odin and Zeus.
- Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme Vol 1 #8, October 1989 by Roy Thomas and Dann Thomas
- Satannish and Mephisto fought but were broken up by Strange
- Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme Vol 1 #30, June 1991 by Roy Thomasand Dann Thomas
- Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme Vol 1 #35, November 1991 by Roy Thomas
- Avengers West Coast Vol 2 #100, November 1993 by Roy Thomas
- Satannish and Mephisto fought evenly until they were broken up
- Hellcat Vol 1 #2, October 2000 by Steve Englehart
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Do you happen to remember the issue, so I can log it down?
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I believe this is it.
- Thor Annual Vol 1 #9, November 1981
- After Don Blake saves the life of a young boy, Thor returns to Asgard to take part in some sport. But they are attacked, and Thor is injured. During his recovery, he sees witchfire and demons about Asgard, but no one else does. When he checks on Odin, he finds him playing chess with Dormammu, with Lord Chaos and Master Order being affected by their game. Thor is then manipulated into almost helping destroy everything by helping Odin win, by Umar. But with Sif and Jane Foster's help, he manages to stop himself, with the chess game ending as it should, in a balanced draw.
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From the looks of it, early showing have Dormammu and Odin above the two Lords.
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Strange also states Satannish makes him more helpless than Dormammu in Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #30. Granted, it's contradicted by this statement from Doctor Strange #173. I believe it was also mentioned that Odin and Mephisto scale to Agamotto due to scaling to a similarly fed Galactus (Mighty Thor #5, Thor #162, Marvel Graphic Novel #38, Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #43). Lastly, is it possible to scale them to the 2-A statistics of these characters but not the Low 1-C ones?
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- Thread starter
- #184
Satannish is also shown to be a rival of Mephisto if I remember correctly, putting him on a similar tier to Agamotto.
And yeah, there’s quite a few times that other Skyfathers (well, usually just Odin and Zeus) and Hell Lords are put on a similar pedestal to Dormammu (even though he consistently scales above them), so I dunno, something like a ‘possibly’ rating might work better than my original proposal.
And yeah, there’s quite a few times that other Skyfathers (well, usually just Odin and Zeus) and Hell Lords are put on a similar pedestal to Dormammu (even though he consistently scales above them), so I dunno, something like a ‘possibly’ rating might work better than my original proposal.
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Oh definitely. Right after that statement in DSSS #30, Satannish and Mephisto fight until they're broken up by Strange. They fought earlier in DSSS #8, but were broken up by Strange again. Lastly, they fought in Avengers West Coast #100, where it was even until they were broken up (They've also both cheap-shotted each other, but I wouldn't use that for scaling). Although, all of these are out of realm Mephisto instead of in realm.
Yeah, I prefer possibly as well.
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I personally do not mind scaling Mephisto, Galactus, Dormammu, Satannish. Agamotto, Odin, and Zeus as being of a usually comparable, although not exactly equal, level, but I would prefer input from @Sandman31 @Firestorm808 @LuciferDC099 and @Matthew_Schroeder first.
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- Thread starter
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I imagine their justifications would look something like this.
Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ ([insert other feats here]. Occasionally considered to be on a similar, albeit fairly weaker, level of power to the likes of Dormammu)
Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+ ([insert other feats here]. Occasionally considered to be on a similar, albeit fairly weaker, level of power to the likes of Dormammu)
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Isn't Sentry one of those "Scales of but no scaling from" types of characters like Mindless Ones anyways?
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The Celestials have also been portrayed as pushovers in Jason Aaron's recent Avengers stories, not just King in Black, and The Sentry is as powerful as a very angry Hulk. That's it. He has been shown as more powerful than Beta Ray Bill and Gladiator, but not overwhelmingly so.
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2 Questions about the upgrade plans:
1. Does Out of Realm Mephisto scale due to fighting Satannish? Also, shouldn't Out of Realm get a "varies" thing because his power decreases depending on how long he's out?
2. If Yggdrasil as a whole goes to 2-A, will "the 9 Realms" alone still be 2-C? In my opinion they should be.
1. Does Out of Realm Mephisto scale due to fighting Satannish? Also, shouldn't Out of Realm get a "varies" thing because his power decreases depending on how long he's out?
2. If Yggdrasil as a whole goes to 2-A, will "the 9 Realms" alone still be 2-C? In my opinion they should be.
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Out of Realm Mephisto should probably have a Varies with 2-C/2-A at most (he was out of his realm when he said Odin was his equal iirc).
And yeah, probably.
And yeah, probably.
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He's said he's equal to Odin both in realm and out of realm, so take your pick I guess. But yeah, "up to 2-C/2-A" sounds good.
I know, I was just asking what would happen/what the plans where, not what should happen.
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The problem is that neither Odin nor Zeus (Much less other Skyfathers) have any feats above universe level or barely multiversal in Odin's case and if we're being honest they are frequently far, far, far weaker than that. Scaling them to 2-A is a meme.
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I mean, there have been a couple of feats shown for Odin scaling to a 2-A Yggdrasil all under the same writer, so I don't know how you can say they have 0 feats there.
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- Thread starter
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Odin straight up nullified a 2-C flame...
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That’s not a proper response, you can’t just say ‘no’ and expect that to mean anything.
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