2-A/Low 1-C Skyfathers and Hell Lords

[LordTracer]

If it’s fairly consistent for Mephisto to be superior to 4-Bs outside of his realm, maybe he could be ‘Varies, usually 4-B, up to 2-C’ outside of his realm?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Sounds fair enough to me

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to make sense to me as well. Some writers seem to write him as far less powerful outside of his realm, whereas others do not.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

• This quote is blatantly saying that there are universes outside of Yggdrasil not that Yggdrasil has infinite universes.
• Something existing on "multiple planes of reality" in Marvel doesn't necessarily mean they are fighting in separate universes, we see in the same arc when Odin and Seth fight, they're not fighting on different universes its just that their powers are outside of the physical plane.
• Odin saying that Yggdrasil encompasses "All there is" is meaningless because in the same panel he clarifies that he is referring to the Ten Realms as all of existence
• Surtur ssaying his fire will burn all of creation is a meaningless boast unless you wanna say Surtur is Low 1-A
• This doesn't support 2-A Yggdrasil
• Space and time being "infinite in its complexity" does not prove infinite universes the quote could be used to refer to a single space-time. Describing something as "infinite in an attribute" is different from saying there are an infinite number of said thing
• The Quantum Metaverse quote is blatantly saying that the Nordic Cosmology is not all there is, bringing up that Hindu Cosmology might also be true because the multiverse is infinite enough to contain both. So it doesn't scale to Yggdrasil

Basically I think the only time Odin can be scaled to 2-A is the Seth Run because in that time they do legitimately say that Yggdrasil covers the multiverse.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Apologies for taking so long to reply by the way, I know I made people wait and that was uncalled for.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. Thank you for helpìng out.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

• This quote is blatantly saying that there are universes outside of Yggdrasil not that Yggdrasil has infinite universes.

Would you mind explaining how? I already explained why I believe it does:

I'm not sure about that. Here's the quote:
"The Asgardian World Tree is kind of a map, okay? The Nine Words you recognize as being a part of Yggdrasil are just the tip of... a maybe Infinite Iceberg."
The Infinite Iceberg is Yggdrasil, and the Nine Words are just the tip of it. I mean, his point here is literally that there is more to Yggdrasil than the 9 realms.
"You might believe there are only Nine Worlds, but brother, I'm here to tell you... there's more and they're hungry."

I don't know how I can make it more clear than that.

• Something existing on "multiple planes of reality" in Marvel doesn't necessarily mean they are fighting in separate universes, we see in the same arc when Odin and Seth fight, they're not fighting on different universes its just that their powers are outside of the physical plane.

Wait, what? By that, do you mean Odin and Seth themselves weren't in those Universes or that their power didn't reach there? If the former, isn't it still Multiversal+ in size?

• Odin saying that Yggdrasil encompasses "All there is" is meaningless because in the same panel he clarifies that he is referring to the Ten Realms as all of existence

Eh, he says "Ten Realms in this Reality", and if Yggdrasil exists on all planes of reality there can definitely be more.

• The Quantum Metaverse quote is blatantly saying that the Nordic Cosmology is not all there is, bringing up that Hindu Cosmology might also be true because the multiverse is infinite enough to contain both. So it doesn't scale to Yggdrasil

I actually do agree here, it's pretty clearly talking about the Multiverse as a whole, but it's still a helpful scan considering the bottom where he explains your own personal cosmology is true and exist somewhere.

Regardless of my disagreements, thank you for putting in the effort to respond.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Would you mind explaining how? I already explained why I believe it does:

The story is literally involves worlds (As in actual planets) from outside of Yggdrasil invading Asgard. The context of the multiverse is talking about stuff outside of Yggdrasil which are now invading.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Matthew_Schroeder

Thanks for the input.

By the way, Seth's quote is that it's on "every plane of reality," not multiple.

It's said that Surtur would burn the nine realms and the entire multiverse as well.

Are you suggesting the 2-A cutoff as Matt Fraction era and before?

 

[Supreme_odin]

This quote is blatantly saying that there are universes outside of Yggdrasil not that Yggdrasil has infinite universes.

• No, the scan is saying that Yggdrasil has more than one universe, saying, "You may think there are only nine worlds--but, brother, I'm tell you...there's more. And they're hungry." (The hungry realms like the realm of the World-Eaters).
• Also, Odin hid the true size and the amount of universes Yggdrasil has (the thing involving with the World Eaters' realm), which is supported by Thor saying that there are more than the universes they knew and it's because Odin hid it from them.

Something existing on "multiple planes of reality" in Marvel doesn't necessarily mean they are fighting in separate universes, we see in the same arc when Odin and Seth fight, they're not fighting on different universes its just that their powers are outside of the physical plane.

• I pretty much have the same questions as E2B here, so it'd be nice if you'd clarify what you mean.

Odin saying that Yggdrasil encompasses "All there is" is meaningless because in the same panel he clarifies that he is referring to the Ten Realms as all of existence

• He isn't clarifying the Ten Realms as "all existence," but rather he's clarifying that there are ten realms in this reality, and that Yggdrasil winds through all those realities. Supported that saving Yggdrasil didn't just save only one reality, but all realities.

Surtur saying his fire will burn all of creation is a meaningless boast unless you wanna say Surtur is Low 1-A

• While true Surtur stating he can undo all creation may seem vague and unquantifiable, it's actually synonym to him burning Yggdrasil, and this has consistent stating as you can see (and the storyline it was in literally revolved on the burning of Yggdrasil). Supported with the death of Yggdrasil would be the death of all creation. Also, it's also been stated that engulfing Yggdrasil in this kind of flame would--if left unchecked--consume all reality.

This doesn't support 2-A Yggdrasil

• Actually, it does. It's been stated that spacetime has infinite universes within it, as said by Dr. Eric Solvang, "Anything that can exist does exist within the grand scheme of spacetime. A quantum metaverse."

Space and time being "infinite in its complexity" does not prove infinite universes the quote could be used to refer to a single space-time. Describing something as "infinite in an attribute" is different from saying there are an infinite number of said thing

• Now this I agree with. If we're going by this logic, then if I call someone infinitely in their beauties, does that mean it equals infinite universes? However, Heimdall's scan just backs up that Yggdrasil is worth not only just nine realms, but infinite of them due to the spacetime containing infinite universes, and he sees all that because of the Asgardian World Tree. (Heimdall's vision spanning space-time is also consistent.)

The Quantum Metaverse quote is blatantly saying that the Nordic Cosmology is not all there is, bringing up that Hindu Cosmology might also be true because the multiverse is infinite enough to contain both. So it doesn't scale to Yggdrasil.

• I concede at this. This is true and I agree with it.

With that done, I'll go over what supports 2-A and maybe even Low 1-C Yggdrasil. I'll also post some Odin scans, too. (Note: There might be repeat scans here, so I apologize for those.) And some Galactus.

---

Yggdrasil

• Trans-dimensional and exists on every plane of reality.
• Contains trans-dimensional realms.
• Apparently the entire Norse World.
• Transcends time--as it's locked up inside of it.
• When the Serpent was going to destroy Yggdrasil, the whole of everything was at stake.
• The roots of Yggdrasil contain a liquid that embodies all of spacetime.
• Tangles a perfect seven-dimensional sphere within its roots.
• If the Midgard aspect of Yggdrasil were to come to harm, dire wouldst the result be.
  Were the merest branch severed, unmoored the worlds and heavens be.
• Controls the passage of Nature and Time.
• The birth of Yggdrasil was the birth of spacetime itself.

Odin

• Made Yggdrasil itself.
• Bested the first Skyfather of the Asgardians.
• Slew Ymir, the First of the Giants.
  • Ymir scales to Yggdrasil.
  • Stated to be an Elder God twice.
  • Ymir gave birth to the universe.
• He forged the Odinsword and is > above it in power.
  • The Odinsword slices Yggdrasil in half.
  • It can slice space and time itself and that Yggdrasil wouldn't survive it.
  • Most powerful weapon of Asgard.
• Surtur ***** to Odin. (It got retconned to Surtur wielding the Twilight Sword.)
• Surtur ***** to Odin again, and Odin easily defeats him, but this time Odin was weaker.
• Absorbs Surtur into himself (though Surtur was knocked out).

Galactus

• Under the energy of a dead world and while hungry he can:
  • Easily gets back up from a weakened Odin's headbutt.
  • The Asgardians, the Cosmic Demons, and the Silver Surfer are considered fodder to him.
  • He can consume the Yggdrasil Seed or destroy it, and the Seed birthed Yggdrasil.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

• Actually, it does. It's been stated that spacetime has infinite universes within it, as said by Dr. Eric Solvang, "Anything that can exist does exist within the grand scheme of spacetime. A quantum metaverse."

Eh, he only says "can" there. It doesn't mean every spacetime in Marvel is 2-A/Low 1-C. But I pretty much agree with the rest of your points and counters.

 

[Firestorm808]

I just updated the list with another batch of citations.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/2-a-low-1-c-skyfathers-and-hell-lords.108167/post-3541005

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I just updated the list with another batch of citations.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/2-a-low-1-c-skyfathers-and-hell-lords.108167/post-3541005

Some of the scans are not working

 

[Firestorm808]

Ah, sorry. I'll fix them later today. In the meantime, you can cut the link down to the .jpg ending and it will work.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out Firestorm808. So what are your conclusions based on this?

Input from other knowledgeable members would also be appreciated.

Btw: Odin's brothers are named Vili and Ve, if I remember correctly.

 

[Supreme_odin]

Thank you very much for helping out Firestorm808. So what are your conclusions based on this?

Input from other knowledgeable members would also be appreciated.

Btw: Odin's brothers are named Vili and Ve, if I remember correctly.

He also has an additional brother named Cul.

 

[Firestorm808]

Some of the scans are not working

I think I fixed them all. Let me know if any more need fixing.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I think I fixed them all. Let me know if any more need fixing.

some are still not working

 

[Firestorm808]

some are still not working

How about now?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

How about now?

The earth X scans are not working

 

[Firestorm808]

The earth X scans are not working

Now?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

its working but the scans are too small

 

[LordTracer]

@Firestorm808 Are you in favor or against ‘2-C, possibly 2-A?’ I haven’t been paying much attention to this thread lately so sorry if you already answered this.

 

[Firestorm808]

its working but the scans are too small

Man, I hate how linking fandom images can get. Okay, it should be fine now.

 

[San-Kakarot]

If it has infinite universes it should be in the 2-A and Low 1-C range.

 

[Firestorm808]

Here's a cut-down version of my earlier post for the 2-A Yggdrasil stuff. It seems consistent to me, even to the present.

• Fantastic Four Vol 1 #51 | June 1966 | Stan Lee
  • There are infinite higher dimensions
• Fantastic Four Vol 1 #162 | September 1975 | Roy Thomas
  • Roy Thomas creates a chart to explain that there are earths that exist perpendicular to lands of smaller dimensions, such as the earth of the fifth dimension.
• What If? Vol 1 #1 | February 1977 | Roy Thomas
  • The Watcher explains that there are worlds that exist within worlds and worlds besides worlds.
• Thor Vol 1 #292 | February 1980 | Roy Thomas
  • After leaving Asgard, Odin went to Olympus.
  • Thor is able to travel through worlds within worlds and worlds besides worlds.
• Thor Vol 1 #294 | April 1980 | Roy Thomas
  • The Eye of Odin explains to Thor that the Axis Mundi (Celestial Axis) is a multi-layered system and that it appears symbolically for every plane, and its the mighty world tree, Yggdrasil.
• Incredible Hulk Vol 1 #305 | March 1985 | Bill Mantlo
  • There is an interdimensional intersection known as the Crossroads, leading to infinite dimensions.
• Thor Vol 1 #390 | April 1988 | Tom DeFalco
  • There are infinite planes of time and space.
• Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme Vol 1 #21 | September 1990 | Roy Thomas
  • According to Georg Cantor, transfinite is an infinite series of numbers, all greater than each other. The multiverse is literally a transfinite number, a number greater than infinity, of universes. These universes are often popularly called dimensions.
• Thor Vol 1 #435 | August 1991 | Tom DeFalco
  • Anything Heimdall achieves with his vision is something that is part of Yggdrasil, because that's what his vision does, he sees her branches. Annihilus takes Odin and takes him to the Negative Zone, specifically in subspace. So, Heimdall's search for Odin uses his powers granted by Yggdrasil, and his vision reaches the entire Negative Zone, and totally the subspace within it.
  • Heimdall's vision reached the limitless subspace of the negative zone.
• Journey into Mystery Vol 1 #507 | March 1997 | Tom DeFalco
  • Yggdrasil exists on all planes of reality
• Journey into Mystery Vol 1 #510 | June 1997 | Tom DeFalco
  • Yggdrasil exists on every plane of reality and is transdimensional.
• Journey into Mystery Vol 1 #512
  • Asgard is beyond mortal time and infinite space.
  • Destroying the World Tree would eradicate all life in the Multiverse.
• Journey into Mystery Vol 1 #513 | October 1997 | Tom DeFalco
  • Odin (who is weakened and thinking like a mortal) clashes with Seth, and that clash ripples across all reality.
  • Odin defeats Seth
  • Seth was capable of destroying Yggdrasil
  • The clash was also tearing at the fabric of the multiverse.
  • Their fight was also being waged on all planes of existence.
• Thor Vol 2 #37 | July 2001 | Dan Jurgens
  • Odin, who considers Yggdrasil connecting all of creation, is aware that the Watcher observes events from all planes of existence of the multiverse.
• Thor Vol 2 #41 | November 2001 | Dan Jurgens
  • Odin’s death was felt across all planes of reality.
• Paradise X: Ragnarok Vol 1 #1 | March 2003 | Jim Krueger and Alex Ross
  • During the events of "Earth X" Mephisto created thousands of alternative realities in the multiverse, manipulating them all with hatred. And it is explained that the secret of Mephisto being able to travel through the Multiverse, was a kind of map that allowed him to access points for each of the alternative realities of the Multiverse. So Donnerson reveals that this map was one of Yggdrasil's roots, and explains that each of the tree's circle would be a different timeline. And the Tree grows with every new reality added to the Multiverse.
    • 1
    • 2
    • 3
• Loki Vol 1 #2 | September 2004 | Robert Rodi
  • Baldur explains that all the parallel realities of the Multiverse (617, 618, and etc)... They are all branched fragmentations of the true form of the Asgardian Gods, and which are connected through the Yggdrasil.
• Loki Vol 1 #3 | October 2004 | Robert Rodi
  • Karnilla shows Loki all his incarnations in the mortal world, which exists through all the universes of the multiverse.
    • 1
    • 2
    • 3
• Ultimate Fantastic Four Vol 1 #16 | April 2005 | Warren Ellis
  • Annihilus explains the structure of superreality, and the position of his universe to other universes, where he teaches Reed that universes are a multi-layered system.
  • 2
• Thor: Blood Oath Vol 1 #2 | October 2005 | Mike Oeming
  • Olympus: Thor uses the Mjolnir through Yggdrasil that connects the nine realms to reached what would be the next realm, then he arrives at Olympus.
• Thor: God-Size Special Vol 1 #1 | February 2009 | Matt Fraction
  • Saving Yggdrasil saved “all worlds” and “all realities.
• Incredible Hercules Vol 1 #132 | August 12, 2009
  • There are many other known realms that are part of Yggdrasil, the Greek Gods themselves explain that Axis Mundi a.k.a the World Tree is a multi-layered system of beliefs that appears in as many forms as there are peoples on earth. It is the Totem Pole, The Maypole, The Banyan and The Bodhi Tree, The Golden Branches in the Crowns of Silla...
  • Greek Gods explains that Yggdrasil is a multi-layered system that presents itself in a different shape according to the observer's belief.
  • 2
• Thor Vol 1 #615 | September 22, 2010 | Matt Fraction
  • Dr. Eric Solvang try to explain to Volstagg the multi-layered system of belief that is the Axis Mundi/Yggdrasil
  • Dr. Eric Solvang:
    • "I'm working very hard to prove that this universe is one of an infinite array of universes."
    • "Okay. I believe--and I have the science to show--basically, there are infinite universes, infinite possibilities. Somewhere, there's a universe where you're telling me this stuff. Somewhere, we're both dead. Somewhere, we never existed. Anything that can exists, does exists, within the grand scheme of spacetime. A quantum metaverse."
    • "Everything--It's all real. It's all happening."
    • "Everybody's right because somewhere it all exists."
    • "And goes onto say in that very same scan that the Asgardian version of that--Yggdrasil, the Odin Ash--is true.
• Thor Vol 1 #616 | October 2010 | Matt Fraction
  • The Quantum Cosmologist, Erik Solvong, explains to Thor and Baldur that Yggdrasil is a kind of map, and the nine worlds of yggdrasil are just the tip of a maybe-infinite iceberg (Yggdrasil). The worlds are universes, complex, discrete, fully formed.
  • The Nine Realms, confirmed to be Universal in size, could just be 1 part of an iceberg infinite in comparison
  • This is supported by Heimdall, who states, "All of space and time laid out before me. The whole of World Tree and its branches. Infinite in its complexities and yet so simple to my starry eyes."
  • Ano-Athox: Another realm that Odin imprisoned, taking away his significant existence for the Asgardians, just as he did with Heven
• Thor Vol 1 #617
  • Dr. Eric Solvang also explains to Tony Stark what Yggdrasil is.
• Thor Vol 1 #619 | January 19, 2011 | Matt Fraction
  • Odin: And the Long-Now ended as the World of Bor unfolded into the World-Ash. All things became as they are with Asgard atop eight other worlds. But light that bright, darlings... light that bright always casts a shadow. Like moths to flame, we saw their shadows flit across the face of reality.
  • Thor: He knew all this time. He knew--
  • Iron Man: You need to listen to this man, Thor. I'm vouching for him. And I'm telling you--
  • Thor: I know. We know. Asgard--all of us of Asgard know. Odin, it seems, knows more about the Celestial Clockwork than he'd ever shared with anyone. Odin knows of dark things conspiring beyond the veil of space-time itself...starved universes scratching at the doors of our own.
• Mighty Thor Vol 1 #1 | April 27, 2011 | Matt Fraction
  • Thor states, "The World Tree spans space and time, growing in directions of which we can scarcely conceive."
  • The World Tree was split in twain by the Odinsword used by Thor.
  • "It was the time before time, in the dying days of the long-now that ended with the birth of everything", the Galactus Seed is "the heart of everything" created by Eternity.
• Mighty Thor Vol 1 #21 | October 2012 | Matt Fraction
  • Surtur stated that he would be “the end of all things” and that he’d undo all creation.
  • Loki explains that Surtur’s fire would burn not only the 9 realms of Yggdrasil but the entire multiverse as well because Otherworld is a realm of Yggdrasil.
  • Odin nullifies Surtur's Flames
• Loki: Agent of Asgard Vol 1 #11 | February 2015 | Al Ewing
  • Yggdrasil is all there is, and has roots and branches in all that is. However, in the reality of the Norse gods, the known universes that the tree branched are ten realms.
• Loki: Agent of Asgard Vol 1 #14 | May 2015 | Al Ewing
  • Loki explains to Verity that the Beyonders ending the whole reality would be the final death of Yggdrasil, the omniverse.
• Doctor Strange Vol 1 #383 | December 2017 | Donny Cates
  • Strange absorbing Yggdrasil caused him to feel more magic than he’d ever felt before, meaning above his Classic self.
• History of the Marvel Universe Vol 2 #1 | July 2019 | Mark Waid
  • Yggdrasil is an energy field that supports and connects adjoining dimensions.

 

[Antvasima]

Firestorm seems to make sense to me. So should we upgrade the 2-C Marvel characters to 2-A then?

 

[Antvasima]

Firestorm seems to make sense to me. So should we upgrade the 2-C Marvel characters to 2-A then?

@Matthew_Schroeder @Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Eh, I still think 2-C, possibly 2-A makes more sense. The 9 realms alone would still be just 2-C even if Yggdrasil as a whole is 2-A, so the feat listed on Odin's page from the Surtur saga would still be 2-C. But yeah, they definitely should be upgraded to 2-A in some form imo.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Confluctor]

quick question, how many characters would be affected if this upgrade goes through? It's not just Thor, the Asgardian Gods, hell lords, but wouldn't it also affect some other heroes/villains too?

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

quick question, how many characters would be affected if this upgrade goes through? It's not just Thor, the Asgardian Gods, hell lords, but wouldn't it also affect some other heroes/villains too?

Here:

In the scenario that 2-A Yggdrasil and ‘2-C, possibly 2-A’ Skyfathers/Hell Lords are accepted, then this is everyone who would be affected:

Chaos King (first key)
Galactus (second key)
Nyx - At least 2-C, possibly 2-A or far higher
Tyrant (second key)
Ultron (sixth key)
Modern Doctor Strange (third key) - 2-A, possibly Low 1-C
Ghost Rider (second key) - 4-B, up to 2-C, possibly 2-A
Blackheart (second key) - At least 5-A, possibly 2-C or 2-A
Lucifer (second key)
Mephisto - Varies, up to 2-C | 2-C, possibly 2-A
Bor Burison
Hercules (second key)
Odin
Old King Thor (first and second keys)
Thor (godblast and second key)
Zeus
Cul Borson
The Destroyer (second key)
Gorr (second key)
Hela - At least 4-B, possibly 2-C or 2-A
Surtur
Yahweh

Not to get ahead of myself, I know it isn’t completely accepted, I just want a list of everyone this would affect.

 

[LordTracer]

Eh, I still think 2-C, possibly 2-A makes more sense. The 9 realms alone would still be just 2-C even if Yggdrasil as a whole is 2-A, so the feat listed on Odin's page from the Surtur saga would still be 2-C. But yeah, they definitely should be upgraded to 2-A in some form imo.

Yeah, ‘2-C, possibly 2-A’ is still what I would go with here as opposed to straight 2-A.

 

[Firestorm808]

2-A scaling would depend on how much of the Multiversal tree is affected by certain individuals.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo

Would you consider it acceptable with "At least 2-C, possibly 2-A" scaling, or would something else be preferable?

 

[Firestorm808]

Surtur would be the likely starting point of the 2-A scaling chain as his flames would attack the entire tree.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would you consider it acceptable with "At least 2-C, possibly 2-A" scaling, or would something else be preferable

Yeah I'm good with that. Or if not possibly then likely.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the input. What about the rest of you?

 

[Newendigo]

I'm good with the At least, 2-C possible 2-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluations.

Should we use "possibly 2-A" or "likely 2-A"?