[15th Round of 8-B Tournament] - The Hunter vs Celistia Ralgris (7-5-0)

[Ionliosite]

Shooting Celistia will be much more difficult due to Telportation and forcefields, he won't be breaking them with regular attacks. Yeah, that dodging still isn't comparable to the very first Lux's dodging feat. Except that Celistia isn't a monster and she is more skilled than him (we can keep debating this if you want), the only key I could say that Hunter has that is more skilled than Celistia is the one that defeated Fatalis, and she still is experienced in fighting opponents more skilled than her. Hunter amping won't be much problm since Celistia can amp too and his stealth doesn't work if your opponent just nukes the battlefield, btw, Celistia has fought againts invisible opponents that she can't see and still win, so the stealth is not really a problem. It would give her an edge about dodging his attacks and launching her attacks from different directions.

 

[00potato]

The experience gap between the hunter keys isn't exactly massive so even by you admitsion the skill gap isn't massive. How did she get around stealth before? Hunter could easily stall her stamina out due to rations and dash drugs so her dodging wouldn't help. What is Celestia's stamina (the pilot not the mech we went over that.) also what was her first move against Sacred eclipse?

 

[Ionliosite]

Experience =/= skill, that the experience gap isn't that much doesn't mean that he is similar to latter key since he doesn't have that feat. The invisible Abyss were deal with by sensing their movement and predicting their actions. I don't see how rations would stop her from dodging at all. Celistia's stamina is really high. Why her first move againts Sacred Eclipse is relevant? Teleportation and paralysis btw.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wait hold on. We including Fatalis in this now? If so then we can include Hunter's Soul Destruction.

I've been told by Shiro that Alatreon also offered soulhax with their weapons, though I can't confirm.

 

[00potato]

Why wouldn't it be similar, you have no real proof that his skill increased adsurdly in only a few months. Monsters can't sense him through stealth and they have great senses, even some of the more intelligent ones can't.

How does paralysis work? If it is melee or aimed then she can't reliably do it due to stealth,

how much is the nuke AOE

Her first move against Sacred Eclipse might matter depending if she is the only human sized opponent she faced. If not then we can skip the point.

 

[Ionliosite]

And you have no proof that it did either, he didn't have the feat so he doesn't scale to it, the difference between the First 8-B key Celistia and Second 8-B key Celistia is less than some months and the increase in skill is massive.

It is melee and ranged, she can do it both ways.

The nuke is 300 meters in radius iirc.

Sacred Eclipse is not the only one, basically everyone she fights are humans with armors.

 

[00potato]

If we have no proof for either then we should go with the negative claim. That is how both this wiki and logic tends to go.

Whose speed is this equalized to? The hunter should be able to get out of the way fast enough if she nukes from far away if it is equalized to his speed as he scales at least to 500m/s if not (1500m/s) due to this calc. This isn't even getting into amps and the fact that she likely won't be hitting him directly due to stealth.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ter:_Rathalos_goes_fast_&_Astalos_goes_faster

 

[Ionliosite]

He still doesn't have the feat, we can't use later feats to scale to previous keys. The prove is he couldn't defeat Fatalis before (I guess you won't argue that with this key he would be capable of defeating Fatalis) and in that key he can.

I guess it is equalized to the slowest character, I don't think we make the slowest character faster just to fight againts the other. Celistia also have amps, so Hunter's amps don't help that much, and as I already said stealth is not a problem for her.

 

[00potato]

But it wasn't a massive time gap, you need proof that the skill difference between the hunter is as large as you say it is.

How fast is Celestia if we scale it to her speed?

Also you haven't given a good argument for her getting around his stealth, which monsters with advanced senses can't sense, so she needs to rely on predicting someone with a very different combat background then her and likely most people she fights.

 

[00potato]

Also I checked the site's VS rules and it doesn't mention which speed to equalize it to, so it is likely up to the thread maker's choice.

 

[Ionliosite]

He can't defeat Fatalis on this key, he can on his last key. That, I already proved my point, we can't use feats of higher keys in lower keys because we are backscaling from a higher key. Its like me saying Buu Saga Goku can resist Time Stop because Goku Super can resist Time Stop.

Like superior to baseline supersonic.

She can predict your moves by something as basic as your breathing, and having different combat background doesn't change anything, where did you get that? My main argument is that she can predict him, she literally just needs his breathing, nothing more and she can nuke as I already said.

It's most likely equalized to the slower character I guess.

 

[00potato]

It was only a short amount of time though. Unlike Goku there was not major transformation and the power gap is through better armor, not necessarily pure training and combat experience. So your analogy sucks a lot.

She won't be able to predict him through stealth if she needs to sense something like breathing. The combat background will help as she hasn't dealt with anyone with Hunter's experiences before so predicting him will likely be harder.

Equalized to the lower character because of what?

 

[Ionliosite]

Lux is a better analogue then. He went from no having any idea about how Over Limit was made to perfectly mastering it less than 3 days later. Time spam isn't really relevant, what's relevant is that you can's backscale feats from a totally different key to this.

She hasn't dealt with anyone with Hunter's experiences? So Mishis's countless battles across many centuries facing thousands of different opponents is not enough to match Hunter to you? Besides, she can predict Hunter before he uses his stealth, or alternatively, just nuke the whole place.

Because the faster character can actually move at the speed of the slowest, but not vice versa?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

How strong even is the nuke?

 

[Ionliosite]

How strong even is the nuke?

Enough to one-shot herself (yes, that's literally stated).

 

[00potato]

Why would the experience/skill over time be the same to the Hunter as to Lux? He has no feats of gaining skills in an instant. Also even if we assume that the Hunter's skill growth scales to someone from an entirely different setting, why would mastering one technique of unconfirmed complexity scale to a massive skill gap you assume exists?

She hasn't dealt with someone with Hunter's experiences yes. Mishi has a lot of experience but not the ones Hunter has. Can you point me to anyone that she fought who has dealt with the Hunter's lifestyle?

You could also counter with slowing the faster character as being an unfair nerf. That is why we should ask staff or the thread maker.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So, 7.5x stronger than herself? Which would be 3.75x Stronger than The Hunter. 1.875x if he amped himself beforehand. So not enough to One-Shot him. How many times can she do it?

 

[Ionliosite]

Why would the experience/skill over time be the same to the Hunter as to Lux? He has no feats of gaining skills in an instant. Also even if we assume that the Hunter's skill growth scales to someone from an entirely different setting, why would mastering one technique of unconfirmed complexity scale to a massive skill gap you assume exists?

I'm not saying he scales to Lux because he simply doesn't at all. Lux also didn't have any feats of gaining skill between no knowing how to use Over Limit to mastering btw, so that argument gets covered by my analogue. I'm not assuming a massive skill exists, I'm saying YOU CAN'T DOWNSCALE FEATS FROM LATER KEYS TO EARLIER ONES.

Can you point me to anyone that she fought who has dealt with the Hunter's lifestyle?

Dragon Marauders such as Drakken who spent their whole lifespan fighting against all types of Abyss to get into the Ruins and steal their treasures? These people are used to fighting all kinds of monsters with many different abilities and sizes on a daily basis.

You could also counter with slowing the faster character as being an unfair nerf. That is why we should ask staff or the thread maker.

Do it then.

 

[Ionliosite]

So, 7.5x stronger than herself? Which would be 3.75x Stronger than The Hunter. 1.875x if he amped himself beforehand. So not enough to One-Shot him. How many times can she do it?

Any amount of times she wants? As long as the Force Core has energy, she should be able to do it again.

 

[00potato]

But it wasn't a long gap of time between the two keys, and there was no massive skill boost in one time, so you would need proof that his skill wouldn't backscale.

I will ask staff about the rules.

Did her predictions work perfectly on Drakken?

 

[Ionliosite]

I'll use the Lux example again. He literally went from not knowing how a technique even works to mastering it in 3 days. No skill boost, no long gap of time. Yet, I can't scale this to the previous key despite this, since backscaling feats from a later key to a earlier one can't be done.

Yes? Why wouldn't her predictions work on her?

 

[00potato]

Why? It was only three days and he mastered one skill. So yes you can backscale. Remember our keys aren't part of the media we scale, they are done for the sake of fair debate. Keys aren't entirely different characters, just different measures of stats.

 

[Ionliosite]

Why? It was only three days and he mastered one skill. So yes you can backscale.

No, you can't backscale feats from one key to the other.

 

[00potato]

Now you are just repeating yourself, I just explain why that is wrong. If you keep repeating something I explained then you might as well concede.

 

[Ionliosite]

I'm repeating myself because you're doing so too. You keep insisting that you can backscales feats from different keys, when that's not the case at all.

 

[00potato]

Why? It was only three days and he mastered one skill. So yes you can backscale. Remember our keys aren't part of the media we scale, they are done for the sake of fair debate. Keys aren't entirely different characters, just different measures of stats.

Read what I said about keys. You treat them like different characters that can't scale to each other but they aren't. I wasn't just repeating myself, I was adding arguments regarding your bit about keys.

 

[Ionliosite]

That literally doesn't change my point at all. A character gets separated by keys because they aren't the same on one than on another. They get abilities, AP, experience, literally any of that can justify a new key. You can't just downscale a character from something they did on a latter to their earlier self because they are the same character, since if they were literally identical, they wouldn't be a need for different keys on the first place. Just because I can calc square roots one day doesn't mean I could the day before.

 

[00potato]

Yes but the difference isn't always uniform. Some characters might have keys because of a large time skip. The Hunter has a very small time skip and his weapons and armor are what causes the tier jump and the need for a new key. There is no reason not to backscale skill for this reason as no large skill jump exists between the keys. Since you admitted a later Hunter can succeed Celistia in skill then one from not that far ago should match her.

 

[Ionliosite]

I didn't admit a later Hunter can succeed Celistia at all, I said he still doesn't reach Mishis even with Fatalis' feats (and btw, you never provided feats of the people Fatalis outskills) but that that was irrelevant because he doesn't have that feat on this key to begin with.

Celistia also has very small time skips for her keys, there's literally 1 day between her 1st 8-B key and the second one, and then 2 weeks to the 8-A one, but that doesn't mean I can bring stuff she did on her 8-A key to this argument, because as far as this version of Celis is concerned, she hasn't done those feats yet.

 

[00potato]

Shooting Celistia will be much more difficult due to Telportation and forcefields, he won't be breaking them with regular attacks. Yeah, that dodging still isn't comparable to the very first Lux's dodging feat. Except that Celistia isn't a monster and she is more skilled than him (we can keep debating this if you want), the only key I could say that Hunter has that is more skilled than Celistia is the one that defeated FatalisItalic text, and she still is experienced in fighting opponents more skilled than her. Hunter amping won't be much problm since Celistia can amp too and his stealth doesn't work if your opponent just nukes the battlefield, btw, Celistia has fought againts invisible opponents that she can't see and still win, so the stealth is not really a problem. It would give her an edge about dodging his attacks and launching her attacks from different directions.

 

[00potato]

Also is there any evidence of a major skill gap between Celisita's keys?

 

[Ionliosite]

I said "I could say", but I can't be sure of how skilled that key without knowing the feats of the people Fatalis outskills, because what you mentioned Mishis can do it and better.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Vote for Celisia since her Analitycal Prediction, Teleport, Forcefields and Range Spam of attacks make a really good combo which I think will grant her the win in this match.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Hunter FRA.

 

[Ionliosite]

Hunter FRA.

Read the thread before voting. Have you missed the huge discussion we had above?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

He can vote if he wants, this thread has been going on forever now.

 

[Ionliosite]

It hasn't been going for "forever", it barely started 2 days ago.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It feels like forever. Like Bambu said earlier in the thread, people can start voting if they want to. You didn't say that to Zaratthrustra.

 

[Ionliosite]

Because he actually gave reasons instead of FRAing. That shows he actually read.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

FRA is allowed. It isn't a perfect system, but it's allowed.