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1-A World of Darkness

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Udlmaster

Udlmaster

They/Them
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Okay, so to continue from the last thread about Transduality, lets now get 1-A.

So, firstly, all things in the verse were not made by The One Giver, they were made by her Angels instead, so keep that in mind.

Firstly, the Angels created the Concepts of Space and Dimensions:

https://imgur.com/lzuhFhk

Then we also know that the Concept of Time (And fate) was made by the Angels, as it is stated to be a concept here:

https://imgur.com/nqSupBd

So, we have Time and Space, so let's make them Platonic:

All concepts in WoD are either Platonic or Archetypal, as shown here, all Truths exist was Platonic concepts in the Supernal, and all lies exist was Archetypal concepts in the Abyss, all from the Fallen World (Tapestry/Main Reality):

https://imgur.com/lqigi2c

So, we have the Platonic concepts of Time, Space and Dimensions all being given meaning by the Platonic Truths of the Supernal, so we have our 1-A realm already.

What do you think?
 
This again?

Your first scan is talking about "dimension" in the sense of size and space, not higher dimensions. Which is why it uses the general word "dimension" to fit in with a plural instead of saying "spatial dimensions". This is like me getting a random statement where someone says that a location is "without dimension" to argue that it is 1-A, when they are actually talking about the sense of scale of the location in-context.

Your second scan is talking about the concepts of time and fate influencing personal beliefs overtime. No idea how that is supposed to translate into "The Angels created the concept of time" in the slightest.

Being called platonic isn't enough for 1-A without fitting the actual definitions of a True Platonic concept.
 
First scan is talking about him creating the very idea of Dimensions, to create a Platonic concept, it would encompass all variations of the Concept Dimension, also, what is this fixation on people needing every single letter to be exact?

Sorry it doesn't say "Dimensions" and just "Dimension", and it still doesn't matter, Platonic concept of Dimension is all that is needed.

The Second scan is literally stating that Time is a concept, the Angels created all things in the verse, if you want to 15 screenshots where they create everything from space to causality, then I will send it to your wall, because it's pretty damn irrelevent to the discussion at hand.

"Definitions of a True Platonic concept", you mean a Platonic concept...Like how a Platonic concept would be unbound by other Platonic concepts, like Dimensions... Space... Time... do you see what I am getting at.

Also, what do you mean by "Again", me and Ultima were going to move to this to another thread, I just couldn't be bothered to do it until now.
 
So, an appeal to reality fallacy, nice.

And that doesn't matter, Platonic or not, they're still the concepts of Time, Space and Dimensions, to which the Angels created, and are concepts in the Supernal or Abyss.

It's 1-A no matter how you look at it.

And yes, we can say it's Platonic concepts, I have statements that Plato is cannon, Platonic concepts and Archetypal concepts are all cannon.
 
>Appeal to Reality Fallacy

Lmao, this is literally how we handle every single verse on the wiki, but you want to completely bypass standards and give favoritism and special treatement for World of Darkness. How many times must we explain this to you?

Slapping the words "duality" and "platonic" on shit doesn't make them 1-A.
 
>Lmao, this is literally how we handle every single verse on the wiki, but you want to completely bypass standards and give favoritism and special treatement for World of Darkness. How many times must we explain this to you?

Yes, it's an appeal to reality, because I literally have multiple statements stating that Plato and all his ideas are cannon and exist in WoD, So saying;

"because the word platonic doesn't prove that it is equal to the real world philosophical concept"

Isn't an argument, and can be debunked.

>Slapping the words "duality" and "platonic" on shit doesn't make them 1-A.

https://youtu.be/IqVNEIpCEko?t=514
 
I'm trying to have a conversation, instead, I'm just getting Strawmans and "Lmao"s.
 
Reacting to a provocation with another provocation isn't the way to do things, dude. At this point you two really need to be put away from each other.
 
I literally try to stay away from Matthew as much as possible, I told and asked Ant that me and Matthew should stay away from each other.

But he joins threads like this knowing what will happen.
 
'''MOVING ON'''.............................................................................................................................................................................................................I agree with Kep here.
 
Dude, don't play victim, I respond to your threads because I'm an Admin, and I sure as hell ain't letting your verse skew into 1-A like that when you present no real, quantifiable evidence.

But you just dismiss my every post with insults as of late.
 
>Dude, don't play victim

Who said that?

Who said I was playing victim? Is spouting facts like me telling Ant we should stay away from each other being a victim now...?

>I respond to your threads because I'm an Admin

Cool, I don't care if you're the Avatar of God, you come to these threads knowing what will happen before hand, you know exactly what you're doing, and most of all by going "Lmao" and strawmanning me.

>and I sure as hell ain't letting your verse skew into 1-A like that when you present no real, quantifiable evidence.

I guess the OP above just stopped existing suddenly.

>But you just dismiss my every post with insults as of late.

Insults? What? You mean like me posting videos with my reactions like:

"Who said that? Who said that? Whoooo said that?"

and "Oh, I thought it was burning man with that HUGE ******* STRAWMAN"

Where is the insult there?

Oh, I know where, it must be in those chats, where you say you want WoD deleted, right?
 
I'm not sure what you're going on about writing strawman and 'who said that?' on all caps, and what you're trying to gain here. Nevermind your apparent inability to accept me just disagreeing with you. And apparently me appearing to do part of what I'm meant to do in the wiki is me being "An Avatar of God".

And like Kep and Dragon said above, enough with this nonsense. Keep it solely focused on arguments and no more whining or personal attacks. If you continue, your posts will be deleted and you will receive a warning.
 
Both of you are really unproductive right now.

@Udl

Matt is not the sole decider of what will be accepted and what not. If he dosnt contribute to the discussion then ignore him and move on. Dont waste anyones time with responding to him and bring evidences. Its not always people voting against you to suck up to him, maybe accept that your evidences arent good enough and bring better evidences. Its not the old "Staff abuse" theory, people may actually disagree if the stuff youre posting isnt convincing enough

@Matt

Yes, its your job to answer to this thread as a admin. Especially considering that this is a huge upgrade. But dont use that as a excuse to come to a thread with someone you have a clearly bad relation to, just to drop a one liner. You might find that childish or unnecessary, but people can actually take offence to that. If you truly think that this upgrade is nonsense then debate that out instead of dropping useless provocation that will waste not only Udl's and yours but every Admins time, that tries to make head and tail out of Udl's reasons. And yes, every post of you beyond the first one (Where you at least had the courtesy to reason why you disagree by refering to Kepe's reason) was unnecessary, useless and a waste of time.

This applys to you too Udl.

For record, i give absolutly no **** on what verdict you lot will reach on this thread and i have nothing against either of you. But you are BOTH defeating the point of this thread.
 
https://imgur.com/lzuhFhk

This is just referring to the creation of the material Universe, this notion is completely cemented by the part about The Creator needing a material creation governed by physical laws and filled with solid matter and energy to build upon (Rather than a world of pure Emotion and Spirit with no defined substance, which I assume was the state of creation prior to the material reality) and thus creating Angels of pure matter and form, made of "raw stone and dancing electrons".

This in turn goes back to Kep's point on the meaning of the word "Dimension" used in the context of this scan, and to the second point I made in the previous thread.

https://imgur.com/nqSupBd

This scan is irrelevant, the word "Concept" doesn't have to necessarily refer to unshaped and abstract cosmic forces which define reality, it can simply refer to a principle, or an idea, a good example of that would be phrases like:

The concept of free speech is unknown to them.

He introduced the concept of selling books via the Internet.

The fact that the term "Concept" is also used to refer to "the role of the enchanter" in the paragraph only supports the idea that the word isn't referring to abstract forces or anything of the sort in this context.

But, this is mostly nitpicking, so let's move on to the next scan:

https://imgur.com/lqigi2c

Okay? I believe Platonic Concepts were already established as being a thing in World of Darkness, but I really don't see how that skyrockets the verse to 1-A.

You can very well be beyond the concepts of Time and Space, and be only 1-C or even lower, as it would only apply within the context of your own setting. For such a justification to qualify for 1-A, the verse would have to establish that you transcend all forms of Time and Space on a conceptual level, which is something extremely rare and almost nonexistent among works of fiction, so, simply "Transcending the Concepts of Time and Space" without any further context isn't enough to warrant 1-A.
 
>This is just referring to the creation of the material Universe, this notion is completely cemented by the part about The Creator needing a material creation governed by physical laws and filled with solid matter and energy to build upon (Rather than one of pure Emotion and Spirit with no defined substance)

Actually, it's not just the Material Universe, this is in fact the creation of the verse at hand, this is how the verse got made, if you say that they're just making a Universe, then that's factually incorrect, as the Umbral Realms, Supernal realms etc. all contain multiple Universe sized realms which contain further Universes.

So, the use of the word "Universe" here is irrelevent, and is more so the writer not knowing the proper terminology then anything, I.E Death of the Author.

As for the Spiritual stuff, it looks like WoD treats the soul and spirits as Higher Dimensional beings, for example, the Spirits the Werewolves summon are both literal spirits of the dead, and Archetypal beings, all Souls in WoD are infinite, making them hard to contain or manipulate, and that Spiritual realms are treated as higher dimensional in nearly all scans where they're brought up.

>and thus creating Angels of pure matter and form, made of "raw stone and dancing electrons".

Actually, in that part, it's not talking about what they're made of at all, it's talking about what their job is:

"the Artificers, Angels of Substance and form, raw stone and dancing electrons"

It's a job title, not what they're made out of, the Angels are all made out of God's power, as shown here (Note: This scan is on the One Giver's profile currently):

https://imgur.com/A3UZBJb

>This in turn goes back to Kep's point on the meaning of the word "Dimension" used in the context of this scan, and to the second point I made in the previous thread.

However, this concept of Dimension is contained within the Supernal realms, thusly meaning that all other things that are transcendent over the Supernal realms, is Transcendent over all Platonic truths and Archetypal Untruths (The Abyss, the Supernal's mirror and equal).

The One Giver and her ELOHIM are vastly stronger than the Supernal, as it was the Angels who created all these in the first place, and the Supernal actually many just be the first layer, next to the Tapestry.

>This scan is irrelevant, the word "Concept" doesn't have to necessarily refer to unshaped and abstract cosmic forces which define reality, it can simply refer to a principle, or an idea, a good example of that would be phrases like:

However, it's not, its talking about their concepts, as those are the Magic schools they use, they're literally their concepts.

>Then there is the fact that the word "Concept" is also used to refer to "the role of the enchanter" in this paragraph, so this is another thing indicating that the term isn't referring to abstract forces or anything of the sort here.

Hmm? It doesn't indicate anything, as Enchanter from WoD is different from other verses, an Enchanter has two distinct magic schools, and I believe you know exactly which ones they are, Time and Fate.

>Okay? I believe Platonic Concepts were already established as being a thing in World of Darkness, but I really don't see how that skyrockets the verse to 1-A.

Wasn't why I believe they're 1-A, the reason why Platonic is important is because a Platonic concept contains all variations of these concepts, including anywhere from 11-B to High 1-B
 
Udlmaster said:
Actually, it's not just the Material Universe, this is in fact the creation of the verse at hand, this is how the verse got made, if you say that they're just making a Universe, then that's factually incorrect, as the Umbral Realms, Supernal realms etc. all contain multiple Universe sized realms which contain further Universes. So, the use of the word "Universe" here is irrelevent, and is more so the writer not knowing the proper terminology then anything, I.E Death of the Author.
Click to expand...
"Universe" can be used to refer to the totality of everything within a given cosmology (In fact, there are multiple series which use it to reference what is obviously a Multiverse in-context) so the Writers using the term isn't actually wrong.

Nitpicking aside, the Scan speaks by itself. It seems to be talking about the creation of the material reality which occured after the formation of the abstract world of pure Spirit and Emotion, it really can't get more explicit than that, but the full scan would also be nice too, as I can be completely wrong on that one.

Udlmaster said:
However, it's not, its talking about their concepts, as those are the Magic schools they use, they're literally their concepts.
Click to expand...
It really isn't, the word "Concept" is explicitly used to refer to the role of the enchanter, and said "concepts of Time and Fate" are also said to have effects on the beliefs of people. It all points towards the term being used to talk about a general principle / idea as is conceived and generally understood by Humans in this context, not some abstract force that defines reality.

Udlmaster said:
Wasn't why I believe they're 1-A, the reason why Platonic is important is because a Platonic concept contains all variations of these concepts, including anywhere from 11-B to High 1-B
Click to expand...
A Platonic Ideal doesn't "contain" anything, they are just instantiated in the imperfect material world in the form of the things they connote. For example, The Form of "Bird" is reflected in the world as the several different races of bird that exist.

Sure, a Platonic Form as defined by Plato would encompass the properties they connote at all possible levels, but this fixed definition is unusable in the context of Fictional Indexing, and this is why Conceptual Manipulation which deals with this kind of concept is divided into two Types (False and True), as not every single portrayal of Platonic Forms in fiction will fit into our definition of 1-A, either due to blatant contradictions in how they are supposed to work or simple lack of enough evidence to validify them being at such a level (World of Darkness seems to be the latter from what I am seeing, but may actually fit into the former, since the Platonic Forms present in the Supernal have been actually created by the Angels it seems)
 
>Nitpicking aside, the Scan speaks by itself. It seems to be talking about the creation of the material reality which occured after the formation of the abstract world of pure Spirit and Emotion, it really can't get more explicit than that, but the full scan would also be nice too, as I can be completely wrong on that one.

Sure, if you want, I'll give you the pages for it so you can read it yourself, it does say that they create the "Universe" away from God, and create the Original Universe from literal objective Nothingness (Or less than Nothingness, a Negation of Existence)

>It really isn't, the word "Concept" is explicitly used to refer to the role of the enchanter, and said "concepts of Time and Fate" are also said to have effects on the beliefs of people. It all points towards the term being used to talk about a general principle / idea as is conceived and generally understood by Humans in this context, not some abstract force that defines reality.

That's because Time and Fate in WoD do much more than just what they'd do on the tin, for example, Fate school can force people to tell the truth, force The Biblical Curses and weird stuff like that. It's really weird.

Then Time has fate hax... (?!??) for some reason. It also has a bunch of other weird stuff, so it's not just what you think on the surface, WoD is a lot of weirder than you'd think.

>A Platonic Ideal doesn't "contain" anything, they are just instantiated in the imperfect material world in the form of the things they connote. For example, The Form of "Bird" is reflected in the world as the several different races of bird that exist.

Well, in WoD, we know they do, as we know Archetypes do in fact contain all these, and Archetypes are shown to be the same as Platonic concepts.

Again, if you want, I can show a scan that the Abyss hosts Archetypal concepts, and as with the scans above, the Abyss is just the mirror of the Supernal, which hosts all Platonic truths, which gives these Platonic concepts meaning.
 
I think that Kepekley and Ultima make sense here, and that 1-A seems very exaggerated.

Udlmaster is also provoking Matthew more than the reverse, and should make a continuous effort to be more respectful and not so relentlessly argumentative and unreasonable.

That said, as an admin it is Matthew's job to censor his own comments from "lmao" and similar terms, especially as regular members will recurrently mistake them as a form of abuse of power.
 
To be fair, I'm not the one going around asking why the "my" profiles aren't deleted yet.
 
I also found a statement that gives creedence to my statement that Spiritual Dimensions are higher dimensional, as it describes Physical, Spiritual and Mental Dimensions as the same thing.

It's also very clearly spatial dimensions as it literally states: "Material reality's physical, spiritual and mental dimensions."

https://imgur.com/6Cbhw80
 
That's just a reference to Platonism, it's not remotely sufficient evidence to prove that the implications of the claim in World of Darkness match those of real philosophy.
 
What about that doesn't prove they work exactly the same as Real Life Platonism?

Like, Matthew, instead of going: "They just don't." give constructive critisism, saying: "It's not remotely sufficent evidence" and nothing else doesn't further the argument, it's just contrarianism for it's own sake.

Because, you're not giving reasons, you're just stating an opinion, and opinions are not what makes these arguments go any further.

I shouldn't have to keep asking why you believe something just to get another single sentence comment that doesn't elaborate any further on the original premise.

And look, I am trying to be reasonable, which is why I keep listening to you despite being told to ignore you if I feel you're not being helpful, I am trying to understand why you hate World of Darkness.
 
>Sure, a Platonic Form as defined by Plato would encompass the properties they connote at all possible levels, but this fixed definition is unusable in the context of Fictional Indexing, and this is why Conceptual Manipulation which deals with this kind of concept is divided into two Types (False and True), as not every single portrayal of Platonic Forms in fiction will fit into our definition of 1-A, either due to blatant contradictions in how they are supposed to work or simple lack of enough evidence to validify them being at such a level (World of Darkness seems to be the latter from what I am seeing, but may actually fit into the former, since the Platonic Forms present in the Supernal have been actually created by the Angels it seems)

I'll discuss this, Ultima, if one were able to prove they're the exact same things, Platonic concepts in WoD are the same as Platonic concepts in Real Life, would that give creedence to my argument?

Would you be more willing to agree with my original assessment that World of Darkness could be 1-A?
 
Maybe, but things like "Plato is mentioned in WoD" and "His dialogues are also quoted and everything that can be thought of is real so Platonic Forms are equal to what Plato conceived IRL" aren't valid arguments, they are no different from trying to upgrade SMT to 1-A based on High-End Hinduism.
 
That's not what I am arguing, what I am saying is that, these are done by the Word of God, and thusly, is of a IRL voice, this isn't a narrative voice or a character from the verse, so we know they're talking about the same things.

Then there's statements proving it's Platonic in every sense of the word, and because they're so much overwhelming evidence proving that, then via Hitchen's razer, we can assume they're the same thing.

We've got Philoshophical statements, name drops, descriptions, Word of God, being equal to Archetypal concepts etc etc etc.

There is no other verse on this cite that has so much stating and obviously showing they're Platonic.

To say "Weellll, we don't knowwwww..." is intellectually dishonest.

And I doubt SMT has anywhere near the same amount of evidence that World of Darkness does for being the exact same as the Real world.
 
Supporting Udlmaster with both hands here. If my voice matters, of course. Unfamiliar with the WoD, but the evidence and scans presented by him, the sheer number of it, are convincing to say the least.

Btw, the disproving side, Matthew and Ultima, are only going in circles rejecting his proofs without making constructive counter-points related to the World of Darkness itself.
 
The thing is: This is mostly irrelevant

The property of being a Transcendent, Immutable and Aspatiotemporal abstract object would be a basic attribute possessed by most portrayals of Platonic Forms in fiction (Save for those which have blatant contradictions in the way they are supposed to work), as these would be what makes them Platonic in the first place, but we wouldn't rate every single one of them as 1-A for the sole reason of being Platonic Forms.

This brings me back to my previous point that, you can very well be transcendent over the concepts of Time and Space and be something like 1-C or lower. To qualify for 1-A, the verse would have to specify in some way that you are above all forms of Time and Space on a conceptual level, something which is extremely rare and almost nonexistent in fiction, otherwise your Tier is pretty much variable and needs to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis. This is pretty much why we took the conservative route and divided Platonic Concepts into Types in the first place.

Also:

Udlmaster said:
And I doubt SMT has anywhere near the same amount of evidence that World of Darkness does for being the exact same as the Real world.
Click to expand...
Shin Megami Tensei is the series which quotes extremely obscure Myths verbatim and is generally extremely faithful to the original versions of the Mythological / Religious Beings portrayed in it. Several developers of the games refer to things like the Kabbalah and various Myths, Tales and Faiths as being explicitly true in-universe, even citing the historical and cultural context behind them sometimes, heck, Kazuma Kaneko (the guy responsible for the designs of most Demons, as well as the Lore behind them) even talked about how he would often read the original religious books for inspiration.

So, yeah, I'd say it has plenty of evidence that the Religious / Mythological / Philosophical things in it are the same as the ones conceived in Real Life. Yet, we don't do cross-scaling, not even in cases such as these.
 
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