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1-A World of Darkness

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EmperorRorepme said:
I already thought Udl has explained it. The context behind that is the Angels created all of reality from the void. Including these platonic concepts and the concepts of dimension. It isn't just the "Material Reality" it's all of reality.
Click to expand...
It is blatantly said that the Artificers were only responsible for the creation of reality in a "physical" sense, though. They are explicitly differentiated from the other Houses of Elohim which represented the Ideal and Spiritual Aspects of Creation, and had no involvement with the creation of the Ethereal and Abstract Planes beyond the physical one.

Instead, they only concerned themselves with the material aspect of reality and formed the sheer substance of reality by covering the utter negation of existence of the Void with their own spirits, and turning it into a lack of substance, which was then transformed into physical Space by the imposing of Dimensions and parameters of size (i.e Length, Breadth and Volume).

This alone goes completely against the notion that they created Space, Time and Dimensions as Platonic Concepts.
 
>It is blatantly said that the Artificers were only responsible for the creation of reality in a "physical" sense, though.

Are Dimensions not physical, though?

Why would it being physical matter, it seems kinda strange to get hung up on this one point, it's rather weird.

> They are explicitly differentiated from the other Houses of Angels which represented the Ideal and Spiritual

While true, we know this doesn't mean that other Angels are incapable of creating laws and ideas.

As with the first house in that book, it's stated that the Angels are embodiment of Universal laws, which means they're not the only thing that can create or be ideas.

>and had no involvement with the creation of the Ethereal and Abstract Planes beyond the physical one.

This merely means that the Astral realms and the Abstract realms are beyond Time, Space and Dimension, which makes sense with the Supernal being stated to be close to the Tapestry and there being statements that there are realms untouched by Time and Space, the Supernal itself gives Platonic Truth the the Platonic concepts of Time, Space and Dimensions.

>Instead, they only concerned themselves with the material aspect of reality and formed the sheer substance of reality by covering the utter negation of existence of the Void with their own spirits, and transformed it into a lack of substance-...

This actually only backs up the power of World of Darkness, demonstrating that Dimensions are purely apart of the Tapestry and the rest of the verse is unbound by the concept of Dimensions itself.

>which was then transformed into physical Space by the imposing of Dimensions and parameters of size (i.e Length, Breadth and Volume).

They were imposing dimensions, in the book listed as Length Breadth and Volume, however, this isn't all that there is, we know there are more than this by the mere fact that the Internet is 6-D, there are Catboxes in the Tapestry that are 6-D and the 8-D Chessboard.

It'd be intellectually dishonest to say that the Tapestry is only 3-D, when there's multiple statements contradicting that.

Then we also have the Mage's ability to see into Higher Dimensions, which is shown to never have a specific limit, then this tied with the Countless Dimensions and Realms Surrounding Earth etc.

Additionally, World of Darkness treats the Spiritual realms, and Spirits as Higher Dimensional beings, as the fact that Spirits become Archetypal beings, they constantly describe and treat the Spirit worlds as at least Higher Dimensional and more transcendent, etc. etc. etc.

>This alone goes completely against the notion that they created Space, Time and Dimensions as Platonic Concepts.

It more so reinforces that they not only did, but that the rest of the verse is unbound by these other concepts, and that the Spiritual and Astral realms are not only unbound by these, but existed without them in the first place.
 
I agree with Udl and to add that the "Houses" are a faction of Angels. It doesn't matter if it was only the Artificers who created in a material sense and another House that created in another sense. In general the Angels were responsible for creation in every sense. This includes the vast amount of statements of Platonism and such. Described exactly how it should be to qualify for 1-A. The same with Uld I don't see how this disproves Platonism at all frankly.
 
I am not really saying the Tapestry is 3-D, though, you seem to be misunderstanding my point. I am just saying that going by the Book itself, the Artificers didn't create the Concept of Dimension, but imposed Dimensions into the Material Reality ("material" being used in a really rough sense here) as physical constrants and measurements of size and space upon which the Universe is built.

Besides, is there really anything indicating that the Scans I posted are really referring to the creation of the Artificers as the Tapestry as a whole? Rather than the "main reality" you mentioned in this diagram?

I am also not saying that Angels like the Artificers can't mess with / create Ideas either, I am just arguing on their feat of "creating the concept of Dimension", like I said.

Udlmaster said:
This actually only backs up the power of World of Darkness, demonstrating that Dimensions are purely apart of the Tapestry and the rest of the verse is unbound by the concept of Dimensions itself.
Click to expand...
That seems like a really stretchy speculation overall, as the Scans are pretty clearly using the term "Dimension" to refer to a set of physical measurements and parameters of size, rather than an abstract concept, this idea is supported by the fact the Artificers focused only on the material aspect of creation, rather than the ethereal or spiritual one, which was left for the other Elohim, so the term being used to refer to Dimension as a concept is out of the equation here.
 
>I am not really saying the Tapestry is 3-D, though, you seem to be misunderstanding my point.

I had too nip that one in the bud before it bloomed, you see.

And I am glad you're not thinking that either.

> I am just saying that going by the Book itself, the Artificers didn't create the Concept of Dimension, but imposed Dimensions into the Material Reality ("material" being used in a really rough sense here) as physical constrants and measurements of size and space upon which the Universe is built.

However, to impose something that didn't exist, would one not have to create it's concept? Since we know Dimensions didn't exist prior to them creating them, this reveals to us, that they'd have to have been made in that moment, in fact, it proves this too us.

>Besides, is there really anything indicating that the Scans I posted are really referring to the creation of the Artificers as the Tapestry as a whole? Rather than the "main reality" you mentioned in this diagram?

That diagram is pretty hidiously out-of-date, I've chosen not to make a new one since (for one I'm bad at making visual aids) I'll likely find something new that means that diagram is then out-of-date.

If you notice, there's nothing on my diagram about the Supernal realms nor the Abyss, the Void, the Shard Realms, the Horizen, etc. etc. etc.

>I am also not saying that Angels like the Artificers can't mess with / create Ideas either, I am just arguing on their feat of "creating the concept of Dimension", like I said.

Then that means we shouldn't rule it out, since we know that they had created it in some fashion, and we know that ideas and the Astral Realms were created by this point, namely, these would include the Supernal realms, the Abyss, the Vulgate etc.

It would be very easy to understand from this that they created it on a conceptual level, as nothing had been made just yet, it's not a physical property, more a literal conceptual boundary.

>That seems like a really stretchy speculation overall, as the Scans are pretty clearly using the term "Dimension" to refer to a set of physical measurements and parameters of size, rather than an abstract concept, this idea is supported by the fact the Artificers focused only on the material aspect of creation, rather than the ethereal or spiritual one, which was left for the other Elohim, so the term being used to refer to Dimension as a concept is out of the equation here.

Well, not at all, in fact, like I said, it reinforces this notion, as all truths about the Fallen Reality (The Tapestry) is given Platonic truths to their Platonic concepts, we know it's a Platonic concept, as clearly stated, dimensions are a truth, yes?

So, as they are a truth of the Tapestry, they are then created as a Platonic concept in the Supernal realm, which is then given meaning by the Supernal's Platonic truths.

And even if you say this is false, then it becomes an Archetypal concept of the Abyss, which merely reinforces it even more.
 
Ultima I agree with your point that they created the material and what not however would it be possible for the material realm or Main Reality and Higher Dimensions to exist without the existence of the actual concept? We are then shown a world beyond the tapestry. These transcendant worlds are where the platonic conceptions and ideals exists. I am agreeing with your point and using a sound logically deduction to say that the concept of Dimension does exist. Now, Creation was done by the Angels and as you've just demonstrated they have factions. The full context is that all of Creation was done by the Angels. In every way, every aspect. Including the platonic concepts. Before that there was God and Void. Existence and Non-Existence. Is and Is-Not [Not a shameless TES reference]. Therefore the Angels created everything I think we can agree on this.

If they created The Tapestry and worlds that transcend the Tapestry which are said to contain platonic concepts and ideals. Whilst there being conclusive evidence of Platonism and being described to transcend reality. I hereby say that the verse is 1-A. I cannot see how it isn't to be frank.
 
While overall I have no opinion on this.

Are there any specific statements about the Angels such as "the concept of dimensions is irrelevant to them/they are of a dimensionless existence beyond all of time and space?"
 
I do have statements that there are Places outside of Time and Space, Archmagi are stated to not be able to be bound by Time and Space

However, nothing that specific, I'm pretty sure no verses have anything that specific.
 
Udlmaster said:
Then that means we shouldn't rule it out, since we know that they had created it in some fashion, and we know that ideas and the Astral Realms were created by this point, namely, these would include the Supernal realms, the Abyss, the Vulgate etc.
It would be very easy to understand from this that they created it on a conceptual level, as nothing had been made just yet, it's not a physical property, more like a literal conceptual boundary.
Click to expand...
Well, considering that the Artificers are explicitly said to have created only the Material aspect of creation, while the more abstract and ethereal one was created by the other Elohim, plus the fact that World of Darkness seems to mainly abide by Plato's Theory of Forms, I think it is pretty obvious that the Artificers created Dimensions in a physical sense, while the Platonic Form of "Space" already existed in the higher realms. It really can't be otherwise logically speaking, since under a Platonist Cosmology, Concepts have to be transcendent over reality (In this case, the Tapestry I guess), rather than a part of it, and you seem to be leaning towards the latter interpretation here (With the whole "the concept of Dimension only exists in the Tapestry" thing and what not)

Then there is my previous point in this very same Thread: Even if the Platonic Concept of "Dimension" exists in the verse, you still need far more additional context and evidence showing it provably functions in an 1-A scale, otherwise we default it to be a Type 2 Concept (i.e It only governs and defines "Dimension" up to the scale of the setting itself)

Btw, before you bring up the Outerverse page, I believe the confusion here stems from the fact that the page was made waaay before we established our current standards for Conceptual shit. As in, we seemed to use some weird mix of Platonic + Aristotellian ideas to say that a Concept was a part of reality, but still encompassed all possible interpretations and variations of their Particulars regardless of the size of the setting they belonged to.
 
@Ultima

Does the Outerverse page need to be rewritten or updated? And if so, in what manner?
 
Okay. Would you be willing to start another staff forum thread to get input for improvements?
 
>Well, considering that the Artificers are explicitly said to have created only the Material aspect of creation, while the more abstract and ethereal one was created by the other Elohim, plus the fact that World of Darkness seems to mainly abide by Plato's Theory of Forms, I think it is pretty obvious that the Artificers created Dimensions in a physical sense, while the Platonic Form of "Space" already existed in the higher realms.

This isn't entirely true, while the Artificers were mainly tasked with the creation of the physical world, it does state that space and dimension predates any of the physical aspects of the Universe, In fact, Space and Dimension are only predated by the Very Idea (The Concept) of Physical form/Matter/Atom etc. its' not until the very concept of Matter was created that God told them to create the Universe, which involved them creating Space and Dimension first,so we know during this stage, this is all conceptual, not physical yet.

> It really can't be otherwise logically speaking, since under a Platonist Cosmology, Concepts have to be transcendent over reality (In this case, the Tapestry I guess), rather than a part of it, and you seem to be leaning towards the latter interpretation here (With the whole "the concept of Dimension only exists in the Tapestry" thing and what not)

They are, it's called the Supernal world, like I've said above, the Supernal holds all things true in the Fallen Reality (The Tapestry) as Platonic Truths which give meaning to the Platonic concepts and the Abyss holds all things false which exist as Archetypal Lies. Both of these are equal to each other, so there is no conflicting notions here, as these realms, as shown before, are all transcendent over each other, transcending as one goes up and descending as one goes down.

Ultima Reality said: Then there is my previous point in this very same Thread: Even if the Platonic Concept of "Dimension" exists in the verse, you still need far more additional context and evidence showing it provably functions in an 1-A scale, otherwise we default it to be a Type 2 Concept (i.e It only governs and defines "Dimension" up to the scale of the setting itself) Btw, before you bring up the Outerverse page, I believe the confusion here stems from the fact that the page was made waaay before we established our current standards for Conceptual shit. As in, we seemed to use some weird mix of Platonic + Aristotellian ideas to say that a Concept was a part of reality, but still encompassed all possible interpretations and variations of their Particulars regardless of the size of the setting they belonged to.
Naturally, then you'd understand this is moving the goal post mid-way through revisions, as you can understand, this apparent issue with 1-A's nature has never been brought up before, which makes it seem disingenuous and while not you yourself, just the stance taken.

Under the current system used, they are fitting that definition, no? So it stands to reason that until the error is found in the Outerversal requirements page, and that it is revised to some unknown standard, we cannot apply it to World of Darkness until it is here, and we should use the current system, to which all current 1-A are using.
 
To be honest all the Artificers portion means is that Creation wasn't physical at that point and was made physical by the Artificers for physical beings to exist. It's pretty clear that some form of Creation exists before the physical and dimension. That's how I'd interpret it anyway.
 
Also, just saying, I have a statement talking about a World free from Dimensions, features, energy and boundaries.

Would that help convince you?
 
Further context on that Scan would be nice, anyhow:

Ultima Reality said:
Being Dimensionless does not automatically warrant 1-A, it simply means the lack of physical properties and constrants such as defined size and form, and there are Tier 2 characters who nicely fit this bill. To qualify for 1-A, this space would need to be superior over all forms of dimensional space-time, regardless of complexity.
Click to expand...
 
>Being Dimensionless does not automatically warrant 1-A

'"Dimensionless existence' on this wiki refers to the state of being of characters who are superior in one way or another to the concept of dimensions." - Beyond-Dimensional Existence Page.

It looks like the wiki has "being Dimensionless" as 1-A, not Tier 2 or something, In fact, can you name Dimensionless beings who are Tier 2? You said you know some, so what are they?

And it is superior, as it is free from Boundaries (Which is what you're arguing Dimensions are), Dimensions (What I am arguing they are), Energy and Features.

Not much else to say about the scan, it's clear cut, and as I explained the other thread, it's a Spell the Master's have, so it's a Creation feat.

Also, is this a concession on the other points?
 
It's not really a concession, no, I will still address them later.

>This wiki considers Dimensionlessness as 1-A

It doesn't. The page you quoted was actually renamed to "Beyond-Dimensional Existence" for that very reason. Heck it even specifies that such a state of existence is for being who show superiority to Dimensional Structures of any size, not for those who simply display a lack of physical dimensions.

>Dimensionless beings who are Tier 2 / lower than 1-A.

The Warp Entities from Warhammer are Dimensionless, as they aren't remotely physical beings, existing only as entities of pure Thought and Metaphor who stand in complete antithesis to anything in Realspace.

Yet they aren't automatically 1-A, in fact, I think Azathoth even explained why simply being Dimensionless doesn't automatically qualify you for 1-A.

Also Nagilum.
 
>It doesn't. The page you quoted was actually renamed to "Beyond-Dimensional Existence" for that very reason. Heck it even specifies that such a state of existence is for being who show superiority to Dimensional Structures of any size, not for those who simply display a lack of physical dimensions.

However was that not the phrasing you used? That Dimensionless beings aren't 1-A when the page states as much?

>The Warp Entities from Warhammer are Dimensionless, as they aren't remotely physical beings, existing only as entities of pure Thought and Metaphor who stand in complete antithesis to anything in Realspace.

The Chaos Gods do have a 1-A key though, do they not? And that isn't wholely true either, as Tzeentch's realm is stated to have several dimensions and has been contradicted on more than one occasion of being dimensionless.

And there is a distinct difference between being metaphysical and conceptual and being dimensionless. You're mixing up the definitions of metaphysical and dimensionless, as I can exist as a thought and no be dimensionless, but I cannot be dimensionless and be bound by any form of dimensions, otherwise I'm not dimensionless, am I?

And in the screenshot, it's not saying dimensionless, it's saying free from Dimensions, features, boundaries and energy, which would be unbound by all forms of Dimensions within the verse, and by definition, would be 1-A.

>Yet they aren't automatically 1-A, in fact, I think Azathoth even explained why simply being Dimensionless doesn't automatically qualify you for 1-A.

I believe I know a few people who have an issue with the Warp Gods not being 1-A in general anyway, but that is besides the point, them being "dimensionless" has been contradicted before.

>Also Nagilum

"Its void exists outside the space-time continuum and subspace alike, which means this being should be at least 19-dimensional, with 18 dimensions being confirmed. However, this being could be far more powerful, as 26 dimensions of space-time have been alluded to, and a countless number more when Q claimed that his civilization existed in "limitless dimensions," as well as subspace being noted by Geordi LaForge to have "infinite layers". When trying to ascertain the nature of death, the being instantaneously made an Ensign go insane and die within less than a second without moving or performing any action"

It specifically stated there that it exists in at least 19 Dimensions and is outside the Space-Time continuum which has 18 dimensions, I don't see "Dimensionless" on the page.
 
Tzeentch realm having dimensions does not contradict it.The chaos gods can impose whatever dimensions they want in the warp since the warp is 1A it can contain any number of spatial dimensions.
 
Yeah, that would just mean it transcends Dimensions and isn't dimensionless.

As something that transcends Dimensions can have a inaccessible cardinal amount of Dimensions but something that is dimensionless doesn't have dimensions and cannot have dimensions, as it wouldn't be dimensionless.

It's like saying: "This void is full of Emptiness, but is filled with soil.", it's no longer filled with emptiness, is it? Same thing goes for Dimenionless things.
 
The Chaos Gods do have a 1-A key though, do they not? And that isn't wholely true either, as Tzeentch's realm is stated to have several dimensions and has been contradicted on more than one occasion of being dimensionless.

That isn't necessarily true, it's more like the Warp is a Dimensionless realm, and the only Dimensions that exist there are the ones their habitants choose to impose upon it. Like, if I recall correctly, Tzeentch is obsessed with the number Nine, hence his realm has 9 Dimensions.

And I am not really talking about the Warp Gods, but more about Warp Entities in general, like Daemons and such.

It specifically stated there that it exists in at least 19 Dimensions and is outside the Space-Time continuum which has 18 dimensions, I don't see "Dimensionless" on the page.

The previous version of the page had a link stating that it had no Dimension, not really sure why it was removed.

And there is a distinct difference between being metaphysical and conceptual and being dimensionless. You're mixing up the definitions of metaphysical and dimensionless, as I can exist as a thought and no be dimensionless, but I cannot be dimensionless and be bound by any form of dimensions, otherwise I'm not dimensionless, am I?

A Thought is Dimensionless though, and so is a Concept or a Metaphysical Idea. They don't have things such as Length, Width, or Height, and don't exist as physical objects that occupy space in our world, but as purely abstract things we can't really interact it. Hence, they are not within the realm of Dimensions.

Then there is the fact that this wiki doesn't establish simple Dimensionlessness as being 1-A, but just a lack of defined physical constrants and properties, such as Size and Form. 1-A is being superior and beyond Dimensional Structures of any size, regardless of complexity.

So there is a difference between "Dimensionless" and "Beyond-Dimensional", the page for Beyond-Dimensional Existence citing "Dimensionless Existence" is just an error that was overlooked when the page's name was changed.
 
>That isn't necessarily true, it's more like the Warp is a Dimensionless realm, and the only Dimensions that exist there are the ones their habitants choose to impose upon it. Like, if I recall correctly, Tzeentch is obsessed with the number Nine, hence his realm has 9 Dimensions.

And I am not really talking about the Warp Gods, but more about Warp Entities in general, like Daemons and such.

But the Warp Entities such as Daemons are fractions of the God's power. So they are the same thing, as much as my cells aren't me.

>The previous version of the page had a link stating that it had no Dimension, not really sure why it was removed.

It maybe that it was untrue. As it only states they are outside the 18 Dimensions, not dimensionless.

>Yes, but this wiki doesn't establish simple Dimensionlessness as being 1-A, but just a lack of defined physical constrants and properties, such as Size and Form. 1-A is being superiorand beyond Dimensional Structures of any size, regardless of complexity.

But that isn't entirely true is it? As in fiction, not all concepts, ideas and thoughts are dimensionless, in fact, they're just metaphysical, hence the word being different to dimensionless.

There's a distinct difference between metaphysical and Dimensionless. Metaphysical would be a lack of defined physical contrants, for example, a Ghost, but being dimensionless would to be beyond dimensions or to be freed from dimensions.

To be devoid is to be free from Dimensions, and not the specific wording of devoid and free, because if I am free from your control, I am no longer under it's power, so it isn't less than dimensions, it's greater than.
 
"So there is a difference between "Dimensionless" and "Beyond-Dimensional", the page for Beyond-Dimensional Existence citing "Dimensionless Existence" is just an error that was overlooked when the page's name was changed."

I mentioned this in my discussion with Wok and he said all the Types meant 1-A. So it seems now there are conflicting ideas on the page.
 
Ultima is free to help out by fixing blatant errors in the descriptions in our official pages.
 
Of course we know what is what, Udl.

Ultima is correct, as always. Dimensionless and beyond-dimensional are very separate ideas, and claims of the former without much further context are not sufficiently qualitative proof of 1-A.
 
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