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1-A / High 1-B Feat for DC God Tiers?
- Thread starter Matthew_Schroeder
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This is true. For instance, one of Nyarlathotep's avatars takes those whose names are in the Book of Azathoth beyond dimensional space and to the center of seething nuclear chaos, but the individuals themselves remain 3-D beings, just in a space void of dimensional geometry.Antvasima said:
As for this topic, I am not entirely sure. I don't know if I am familiar enough with the situation to make the best call, so I will look into it, a bit.
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Hmm...While looking through old threads, I noticed something. In the thread in which the reasoning was given for upgrading the Chaos Gods of Warhammer 40,000 to their current 1-C, likely Low 1-B status, there were several other quotes mentioned which talked about the Warp being "beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or causality" and "a universe devoid of consistency and unbound by the laws of time and space, a random, unstructured panorama of pure energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos in its truest sense, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose".
There was also stuff such as "The Warp had no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography" and "The Hidden Library is infinite in dimension and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density". These are all relatively recent lore quotes from the most current Daemon codex, but we still opted for the 1-C, likely Low 1-B based on the 8-D to 12-D statements from an older, but still canon, story.
If we still deem the Warp statements to be not concrete enough or a tad too vague, then the same almost certainly applies here. However, if we don't, then it's possible this discussion will relate to both.
There was also stuff such as "The Warp had no physical dimensions and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography" and "The Hidden Library is infinite in dimension and constantly folds in upon itself under the weight of its own density". These are all relatively recent lore quotes from the most current Daemon codex, but we still opted for the 1-C, likely Low 1-B based on the 8-D to 12-D statements from an older, but still canon, story.
If we still deem the Warp statements to be not concrete enough or a tad too vague, then the same almost certainly applies here. However, if we don't, then it's possible this discussion will relate to both.
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@Azzy
I understand what you mean.
Thank you for your help.
I understand what you mean.
Thank you for your help.
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@Matt
Not a problem, though I am interested in people's opinions.
Not a problem, though I am interested in people's opinions.
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Not really, no. The Warp has always been described as chaos itself, devoid of physics or boundary, with no laws of space or time applying in any way that could be understood by anything which thinks in terms of logic, mathematics, etc.Antvasima said:
I believe it was more of just a "we're not 100% sure" sort of thing, whereas the older quote gave exact numbers of dimensions.
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Well, here is what DarkLK replied:
"If you throw a three-dimensional stool into a multidimensional or dimensionless space, then it will still be just a three-dimensional stool. Hell, I know fiction where people were in a dimensionless space.
That is the space where Lucifer was is probably be dimensionless. The same can be said about the world where the Night exist.
But I see no reason why these characters are dimensionless by nature. I see no reason why they should have a qualitative superiority over any dimensional structures. Although at the end of the Lucifer series Lucifer apparently fused with the outer void (maybe it was Overvoid), it implies a certain level of interaction. But now there is a new series and I do not know what is happening there.
I actually admit that they may have elements of dimensionlessness (ACF Dream of the Endless has it, although I am not the author of this profile). Possibly they may even be 1A. But I do not see clear feats for this."
Hence, for both DC and Warhammer, we need clear proof that the characters themselves are beyond-dimensional, not just higher-dimensional entities present in a beyond-dimensional "space".
"If you throw a three-dimensional stool into a multidimensional or dimensionless space, then it will still be just a three-dimensional stool. Hell, I know fiction where people were in a dimensionless space.
That is the space where Lucifer was is probably be dimensionless. The same can be said about the world where the Night exist.
But I see no reason why these characters are dimensionless by nature. I see no reason why they should have a qualitative superiority over any dimensional structures. Although at the end of the Lucifer series Lucifer apparently fused with the outer void (maybe it was Overvoid), it implies a certain level of interaction. But now there is a new series and I do not know what is happening there.
I actually admit that they may have elements of dimensionlessness (ACF Dream of the Endless has it, although I am not the author of this profile). Possibly they may even be 1A. But I do not see clear feats for this."
Hence, for both DC and Warhammer, we need clear proof that the characters themselves are beyond-dimensional, not just higher-dimensional entities present in a beyond-dimensional "space".
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This is the same thing with DC. The Void is always absolute blank nothingness, devoid of all space, time, and definitions of absolutely whatever. It is meant to represent an empty canvas / blank sheet of paper, after all, with the comic still to be drawn in it.
Granted, there is the argument that it would contradict with DC Comics' Superstring Theory Multiverse definitions that they've been using for a lot, but I don't think it actually would. That would only apply to the Multiverse bound by The Source Wall, not whatever lies beyond and certainly not The Void.
The first scan I showed depicted Lucifer as capable of comprehending and adapting to the level of existence in The Void. In constrast, other High 1-Cs from DC Comics, such as Captain Adam and Mandrakk, not only are incapable of understanding The Void, but the later also completely desintagrated into non-existance upon contact with it.
It is in a similar state as the Warhammer 1-A situation.
Granted, there is the argument that it would contradict with DC Comics' Superstring Theory Multiverse definitions that they've been using for a lot, but I don't think it actually would. That would only apply to the Multiverse bound by The Source Wall, not whatever lies beyond and certainly not The Void.
The first scan I showed depicted Lucifer as capable of comprehending and adapting to the level of existence in The Void. In constrast, other High 1-Cs from DC Comics, such as Captain Adam and Mandrakk, not only are incapable of understanding The Void, but the later also completely desintagrated into non-existance upon contact with it.
It is in a similar state as the Warhammer 1-A situation.
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@Ant
Well, as I said, I am not as familiar with the Lucifer situation, but in the case of the Chaos Gods, they are the Warp and the Warp is them, as opposed to just being entities which reside within it, which is why I was unsure in the first place.
"Warp Space is Chaos, Chaos is Warp space; the two are indivisible".
Well, as I said, I am not as familiar with the Lucifer situation, but in the case of the Chaos Gods, they are the Warp and the Warp is them, as opposed to just being entities which reside within it, which is why I was unsure in the first place.
"Warp Space is Chaos, Chaos is Warp space; the two are indivisible".
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Okay, in response to DarkLK.
If he believes the space in which Night exists to be 1-A, then Mother Night herself would be 1-A. The reason for it is that The Endless and their parents are existence itself. They are primal concepts that define all reality and unreality. Death of the Endless isn't a goddess of death, or the representation or embodiment of death. No, she is death itself. And thus defines life itself. Same with Destiny being destiny itself, rather than an embodiment, and thus defining freedom and choice, or Dream defining reality. So the "untime and unspace" which Night exists in would definitely scale to her, and that space is not The Void, and The Void >>> Everything else.
Furthermore, Lucifer was shown explicitly adapting to the dimensionless environment of The Void. He wasn't simply a 3D being seeing the 3D fraction of the dimensionless surroundings. No, he saw it for what truly was there. Those random panels seem when Lucifer arrives at the place are all panels from the same issue, from events that happen in The Void after Lucifer's arrival, it's to illustrate that progression has no meaning there, yet Lucifer was capable of adapting to it and the rest of the issue progressed "linearly".
If he believes the space in which Night exists to be 1-A, then Mother Night herself would be 1-A. The reason for it is that The Endless and their parents are existence itself. They are primal concepts that define all reality and unreality. Death of the Endless isn't a goddess of death, or the representation or embodiment of death. No, she is death itself. And thus defines life itself. Same with Destiny being destiny itself, rather than an embodiment, and thus defining freedom and choice, or Dream defining reality. So the "untime and unspace" which Night exists in would definitely scale to her, and that space is not The Void, and The Void >>> Everything else.
Furthermore, Lucifer was shown explicitly adapting to the dimensionless environment of The Void. He wasn't simply a 3D being seeing the 3D fraction of the dimensionless surroundings. No, he saw it for what truly was there. Those random panels seem when Lucifer arrives at the place are all panels from the same issue, from events that happen in The Void after Lucifer's arrival, it's to illustrate that progression has no meaning there, yet Lucifer was capable of adapting to it and the rest of the issue progressed "linearly".
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Well, as DarkLK said: "I see no reason why these characters are dimensionless by nature. I see no reason why they should have a qualitative superiority over any dimensional structures."
Being present within, and having a reasonable comprehension of complete formlessness/dimensionlessness, is not remotely the same as automatic superiority over all concepts of time and space, unless the beings themselves have been described and defined in this manner.
As for Mandrakk disintegrating, DC and Vertigo are mostly kept separate, with extremely different standards from story to story, so we cannot draw automatic parallels between the exact functions of Morrison's "Final Crisis" and Carey's "Lucifer".
Being present within, and having a reasonable comprehension of complete formlessness/dimensionlessness, is not remotely the same as automatic superiority over all concepts of time and space, unless the beings themselves have been described and defined in this manner.
As for Mandrakk disintegrating, DC and Vertigo are mostly kept separate, with extremely different standards from story to story, so we cannot draw automatic parallels between the exact functions of Morrison's "Final Crisis" and Carey's "Lucifer".
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Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar have shown up in The Spectre comics.
The Presence has been stated to be a thing repeatedly in the mainstream DC comics
Death of the Endless met Lex Luthor
Dream met Martian Manhunter
Destiny has been a mainstream DC character since the 60s
Zatanna appeared in Hellblazer over some times
Versions of the Vertigo characters appeared in Post-Crisis Earth in Blackest Night.
The two are certainly not completely separate, though I can accept. I was only illustrating how Lucifer is not remotely on the same level as lesser DC High 1-Cs.
Again, The Endless are existence itself. If the space in which Night exists is 1-A, Night and her children are responsibly for it being like that.
The Presence has been stated to be a thing repeatedly in the mainstream DC comics
Death of the Endless met Lex Luthor
Dream met Martian Manhunter
Destiny has been a mainstream DC character since the 60s
Zatanna appeared in Hellblazer over some times
Versions of the Vertigo characters appeared in Post-Crisis Earth in Blackest Night.
The two are certainly not completely separate, though I can accept. I was only illustrating how Lucifer is not remotely on the same level as lesser DC High 1-Cs.
Again, The Endless are existence itself. If the space in which Night exists is 1-A, Night and her children are responsibly for it being like that.
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@Azathoth Well, if the Chaos Gods are embodiments of a beyond dimensional "space", that is obviously different from simply being present within it.
@Matthew To reiterate, to qualify for 1-A status, we have strict regulations about that the being itself has to be described by using those traits, not simply being present within such an area. My apologies.
As for the Endless, my impression was that their mother was the embodiment of space, and their father the embodiment of time. These are still traits of existence itself, and 1-A characters are per definition quite beyond existence.
@Matthew To reiterate, to qualify for 1-A status, we have strict regulations about that the being itself has to be described by using those traits, not simply being present within such an area. My apologies.
As for the Endless, my impression was that their mother was the embodiment of space, and their father the embodiment of time. These are still traits of existence itself, and 1-A characters are per definition quite beyond existence.
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They are called Time and Night, though they are just the concepts of regular time and regular space. Their children alone are far beyond that. Dream can shape all of existence, while Death can end it, for instance, and as shown by the scans in my first post, Sandman and Lucifer seem to define the existence of infinite layers of space and time, and beyond it.
Even if 1-A is a bit much, which it probably is, that'd still place Vertigo's God Tiers at High 1-B. After all, Yahweh was capable of holding the entirety of creation (The comic never said it was just the DC Multiverse) in his hand as if it was a ball, and reality was defined as having infinite layers of space and time in the same comic series.
Even if 1-A is a bit much, which it probably is, that'd still place Vertigo's God Tiers at High 1-B. After all, Yahweh was capable of holding the entirety of creation (The comic never said it was just the DC Multiverse) in his hand as if it was a ball, and reality was defined as having infinite layers of space and time in the same comic series.
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Yes, that is why I was conflicted.Antvasima said:
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@Matthew I am aware of these crossovers, but there have also been statements by editors and writers that the inprints are usually considered as separate, so combined with the usual inconsistency between writers and storylines, I do not think that we can apply the standard that Lucifer would have automatically been annihilated, if he was less than 1-A, simply because Mandrakk was.
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Not sure if this is the same, and pardon me if I'm not understanding, but I don't see how this is existing in that level comes into place. We rank the Umineko characters for manifesting in higher dimensional areas, and almost everyone for being in the city of books.
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I'm not arguing for 1-A God Tiers anymore, though I believe High 1-B is acceptable, as The Presence could hold "the whole of creation" in his hand, and reality was defined as having innumerable / infinite layers of space and time in the same comic series, by the same author. No different authors, different imprints or inconsistencies between different eras of comics.
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@howard
Umineko seems to define the different levels of existence not as spatial dimensions, but as steps in a ladder you can climb. So climbing to the level of the City of Books would put you at such a level of existence.
Anyway, the talk is about Vertigo.
Umineko seems to define the different levels of existence not as spatial dimensions, but as steps in a ladder you can climb. So climbing to the level of the City of Books would put you at such a level of existence.
Anyway, the talk is about Vertigo.
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@Azathoth I agree that this seems more reliable then. Perhaps two separate "Pre-Retcon" and "Post-Retcon" statistics would be in order for the Chaos Gods?
@Matthew Possibly, yes, if existence was truly defined as infinite-dimensional within the Lucifer series.
I would prefer more input from DarkLK though. I am not nearly as good at evaluating these sort of matters as he is, and am also busy with the daily backlog.
@Matthew Possibly, yes, if existence was truly defined as infinite-dimensional within the Lucifer series.
I would prefer more input from DarkLK though. I am not nearly as good at evaluating these sort of matters as he is, and am also busy with the daily backlog.
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@Ant
That may be the best course of actions, yes. Though I would like someone like Promestein's opinion as well, since she is also familiar with 40k.
That may be the best course of actions, yes. Though I would like someone like Promestein's opinion as well, since she is also familiar with 40k.
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It's implied to be. The Void is simply defined as being "Beyond existence", and to illustrate it, they describe it as
"There is no time here, and no space. So all things are layered on themselves endlessly, and perception twists around its own axis until it is blinded by fullness, crippled by infinite repetition."
There was also the moment where Elaine Belloc had to envellop all of creation to avoid it from destroying, and we get pages of her flying through layers of existence. Starting at Earth, then at space amidst stars and galaxies, then going through the layer of what would be the afterlife, heaven and hell, then abstract, broken and unfinished dimensions, and so on and so on.
"At first I'm flying over purely physical spaces. (...) The gaps between the worlds are rough going, at first. Cold and bleak, airless and silent. It's hard to keep track of time here. They're nothing compared to the realms beneath, though. Lucifer never made an afterlife. Instead, a great pregnant emptiness pulses like a heart, claws at me with invisible fingers. From there I fly on through abstractions and abominations. Dimensions left incomplete, and those where initially tiny flaws have grown monstrous. (...) His journey goes on for so long that I pass through exhaustion into a grey space beyond. (...) And then, across infinite distance, I see another point moving like me. I wonder for a moment if it is me. If the sky in front of me is a mirror. But no. There are two more. From perpendicular directions without names they speed toward me."
And also the space in which Night exists "Untime and Unspace beyond every event horizon." That too would be added to the "Whole of Creation" which The Presence could hold.
"There is no time here, and no space. So all things are layered on themselves endlessly, and perception twists around its own axis until it is blinded by fullness, crippled by infinite repetition."
There was also the moment where Elaine Belloc had to envellop all of creation to avoid it from destroying, and we get pages of her flying through layers of existence. Starting at Earth, then at space amidst stars and galaxies, then going through the layer of what would be the afterlife, heaven and hell, then abstract, broken and unfinished dimensions, and so on and so on.
"At first I'm flying over purely physical spaces. (...) The gaps between the worlds are rough going, at first. Cold and bleak, airless and silent. It's hard to keep track of time here. They're nothing compared to the realms beneath, though. Lucifer never made an afterlife. Instead, a great pregnant emptiness pulses like a heart, claws at me with invisible fingers. From there I fly on through abstractions and abominations. Dimensions left incomplete, and those where initially tiny flaws have grown monstrous. (...) His journey goes on for so long that I pass through exhaustion into a grey space beyond. (...) And then, across infinite distance, I see another point moving like me. I wonder for a moment if it is me. If the sky in front of me is a mirror. But no. There are two more. From perpendicular directions without names they speed toward me."
And also the space in which Night exists "Untime and Unspace beyond every event horizon." That too would be added to the "Whole of Creation" which The Presence could hold.
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Just finished reading Lucifer yesterday and here is what i have to say: I partially agree with DarkLK that you don't have to be beyond dimensional to enter the Void, and we've already seen lesser beings enter the void the same way Lucifer did, with the passage God gave him (or the gates he made with the passage).
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TWe rank the Umineko characters
If we did such thing for Umineko, the common people would be tier 1 because they able to exist within a multidimensional domains and non-euclidean realms where dimensional logic is broken and even within the transcendental area that includes all roads and times, but goes beyond it, where is no "where" and "when".
If we did such thing for Umineko, the common people would be tier 1 because they able to exist within a multidimensional domains and non-euclidean realms where dimensional logic is broken and even within the transcendental area that includes all roads and times, but goes beyond it, where is no "where" and "when".
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Here is what DarkLK told me:
"I have no doubt that the strength of Yahweh surpasses all creation, but when he showed a small sphere in his hands, it looked like just a demonstration.
If there are infinite dimensions then why not.
Although, if there is an infinite dimensions, even 1A is very plausible."
"Frankly I do not see a clear indication of an infinite hierarchy of infinite qualitative difference between the levels."
"I have no doubt that the strength of Yahweh surpasses all creation, but when he showed a small sphere in his hands, it looked like just a demonstration.
If there are infinite dimensions then why not.
Although, if there is an infinite dimensions, even 1A is very plausible."
"Frankly I do not see a clear indication of an infinite hierarchy of infinite qualitative difference between the levels."
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The small sphere was the whole of creation, Yahweh stated it.
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But I'm glad he's replying.
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Okay. I can dig up for more evidence soon enough, but right now I can't. Sorry if this was inconvinient.
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I think it was creation itself, but what difference does that make?The DC Multiverse is a 11 dimensional one so that would only make Yahweh 11 to 12 dimensional at best.
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Of course, we can assume that the Night is not just exist outside every event horizon. Maybe it also has the form of existence that is beyond any level of the "event" concept.
By adding some other interpretations we can get something similar to 1-A. Honestly, it is easier to prove 1-A than high 1-B.
By adding some other interpretations we can get something similar to 1-A. Honestly, it is easier to prove 1-A than high 1-B.
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This definatly seems like high 1-B to even 1-A feat.
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