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1-A / High 1-B Feat for DC God Tiers?

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Matthew_Schroeder

Matthew_Schroeder

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So... This just happened:

I was looking through Respect Threads for DC Comics characters, when I suddenly come across this scene, from Lucifer #75:

Beyond Time
To quote the comic:

"It is a matter of perspective. There is no time here, and no space. So all things are layered on themselves endlessly, and perception twists around its own axis until it is blinded by fullness, crippled by infinite repetition. To discipline your eyes and min to the new perspective -- To see time where no time is -- Takes an effort of will almost beyond imagining."

This seems to state, very clearly I might add, that Lucifer was in a place beyond all definitions of time and space, and I'm led to believe that this applies to stacked on layers of dimensional space and time, given all the time about infinity and layers and repetition...

The thing is... I don't know what to do with this feat. It's taken directly from the main Lucifer comics, and should it be accepted, it would only scale to the Demiurgic Archangels, The Endless and the God Tiers. It wouldn't interfere with anyone else in DC Comics. This isn't the first time this has been implied. For instance, Mother Night (The mother of the Endless), exists in "Untime and unspace beyond every event horizo".

Note: This is not an upgrade thread. At least, not yet. I just don't know what to make of this, and would like input from other DC Fans and Staff Members.

Thank you.
 
It seems like a 1-A feat to me?

I mean... if it's consistent, I don't see why it wouldn't be applicable.
 
Well... It's not that it is consistent. But it just doesn't contradict anything.

I mean, other series have been rated as 1-A for similar things. I just wanna know what to think of this.
 
There's another feat from Lucifer that might be 1-A, see here:

http://i.imgur.com/GlGyNsc.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/h34fTYN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dNeds6j.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oEFCQ5W.jpg

In Lucifer #69, Elaine Belloc flies across all of creation to The Void, while envelloping creation.

Look at the narration:

"At first I'm flying over purely physical spaces. Humans and centaurs see me pass, and I suppose wove me into their stories. The girl hauling a blanket of light across the sky. The gaps between the worlds are rough going, at first. Cold and bleak, airless and silent. It's hard to keep track of time here. They're nothing compared to the realms beneath, though. Lucifer never made an afterlife. Instead, a great pregnant emptiness pulses like a heart, claws at me with invisible fingers. From there I fly on through abstractions and abominations. Dimensions left incomplete, and those where initially tiny flaws have grown monstrous. Forests of cancer blossom. Oceans of shattered bone."

"His journey goes on for so long that I pass through exhaustion into a grey space beyond. The muscles of my hand lock, and the feeling dies. My name and purpose slip from me. I'm sharpened to the nub of my own will. In other words -- I become what he was to start with. And then, across infinite distance, I see another point moving like me. I wonder for a moment if it is me. If the sky in front of me is a mirror. But no. There are two more. From perpendicular directions without names they speed toward me."

She was literally ascending through the layers of existence and dimensions until finally reaching The Void.
 
Well, that really needs a bit further explanation in regards of what that is about I would say.

When characters are stated to be in places without time and space (or the concept of those), that often refers just to the lower world parts, like being outside the timeline and stuff.

It really depends on what the "layered on themselves endlessly" is supposed to mean exacty. Just that formulation in itself is a bit unclear in my opinion. Context can probably help in that regards...
 
The real cal howard said:
Just to be clear, who are the god tiers? Endless, Presence, Lucifer and Michael, and CAS and Mandrakk?
Click to expand...
Only Vertigo Beings. People beyond The Source Wall, of which no DC Comics proper is.
 
DontTalk said:
Well, that really needs a bit further explanation in regards of what that is about I would say.
When characters are stated to be in places without time and space (or the concept of those), that often refers just to the lower world parts, like being outside the timeline and stuff.

It really depends on what the "layered on themselves endlessly" is supposed to mean exacty. Just that formulation in itself is a bit unclear in my opinion. Context can probably help in that regards...
Click to expand...
The thing is that they were meeting in a place beyond all creation, in the Void which absolutely empty and without any definition of absolutely anything. So they weren't just above a universe or a multiverse, but beyond this as an extreme low-end.
 
I'm not a big follower of DC, but from the looks of it, this feat is extremely well supported in terms consistency and within context, and I think it deserves to be added.
 
Huge vertigo fan and can advocate to the consistency of the feat. This feat would only be towards god tiers who can exist beyound the source wall. So no monitors, CAS, and Mandrakk since both CAS and Mandrakk where destoryed the moment they crossed it. Also while where on the subject can we add a profile for Mazikeen since Lucifer left his light bringer powers with her at the end of the comic
 
It's fine enough to use as long as there's contractions and is consistent. Pretty much what Prom said from earlier on that, i guess.
 
My take is that while a very unusually high definition of the DC God Tiers powers... It's not inconsistent because they literally have NO Low showings when at full power.

Vertigo is almost never about action and fighting like regular superhero comics, so you don't see their "Nigh-Omnipotent" characters getting punched in the face and stuff.
 
That reminds me of Azzy when he said the Warhammer 40K characters have no low endings iirc...i think that's what he said?

But anyways, this seems fine enough for me aside from that above of what i just said...
 
This seems to me to be more infinite-dimensional and actually transcending the idea of dimensions as a whole, given the perspective gained is still contained within these infinite-folded repititions beyond space and time. That would be High 1-B (assuming it's not misinterpreting it), but not quite 1-A, from what I can see.
 
I get how it is clearly above time and space, which is automatically above 4D at least I'd think, and seemingly beyond even many dimensions with the second feat you showed for sure, not sure about if we can assume it means above any dimensional level though, especially levels that may not exist in DC multiverse as seen in the multiversity, that might be nlf.

It would make sense it is outside the source wall imo though for sure based on the second feat and the narrative. Although I gotta ask what proof do we have of outside the source wall being 1-A? If there is proof that any beings outside source wall are 1-A I'd agree on the upgrade, if not it's shaky imo as it doesn't specifically state they are beyond all dimensions or infinite dimensions or unbound by dimensions, just beyond time and space, and that they seemingly passed an unknown amount of dimensions to what is likely past the source wall.
 
The first issue makes it very obvious that this is infinite layers of space-time, not just a regular 4D universe.

It wouldn't make any being beyond the Source Wall 1-A, only the DC God Tiers, since the feat is performed by some of then.
 
SSJRyu1 said:
I get how it is clearly above time and space, which is automatically above 4D at least I'd think, and seemingly beyond even many dimensions with the second feat you showed for sure, not sure about if we can assume it means above any dimensional level though, especially levels that may not exist in DC multiverse as seen in the multiversity, that might be nlf.

It would make sense it is outside the source wall imo though for sure based on the second feat and the narrative. Although I gotta ask what proof do we have of outside the source wall being 1-A? If there is proof that any beings outside source wall are 1-A I'd agree on the upgrade, if not it's shaky imo as it doesn't specifically state they are beyond all dimensions or infinite dimensions or unbound by dimensions, just beyond time and space, and that they seemingly passed an unknown amount of dimensions to what is likely past the source wall.
Click to expand...
I think it's because the other side of the Source wall is the prime monitor if I remember correctly
 
I am uncertain for similar reasons as DontTalk.

In addition, DarkLK has told me that being present in a beyond dimensional "space" does not automatically make a character beyond dimensional itself.

Given that this is a massive change, I think that we should first ask DarkLK for input.
 
Okay, but that is still not the same thing, and it still contradicts that Michael Demiurgos had to use his full power/explode his own body to create a multiverse.
 
That's my big issue with it, its vagueness. I'm trying to interpret it in the best light that I can, and High 1-B is the best I personally see this coming to, as nothing I see really implies beyond-dimensionality to any notable degree.
 
He really didn't. He can do it with a handwave. He just needs God's permission to use his powers. Michael Demiurgos exploding and releasing all his power happened because he was already wounded and going to explode.
 
Is it stated somewhere that he can do it with a handwave? And if his released full power after exploding simply created an 11-dimensional multiverse, does this not amount to the same thing as his power really being of that scale?
 
But yes, it can be just a High 1-B feat as well. And I want more input. Not demanding an upgrade immediately now.
 
Michael could have ended the War in Heaven with a gesture if he used the Demiurgic Power.

Michael renews creation simply by existing

There's a bunch of statements of Michael having infinite power, one by The Presence himself.

Also, Michael didn't create a Multiverse through his explosion. Lucifer simply grabbed Michael's Demiurgic power and wielded it to make his Multiverse. Keep in mind that Lucifer's limitation is that he is incapable of creating anything "from nothing". He needs to wield existing energy to form things.
 
Okay, but the point still stands that infinity is usually cheap by our standards, and that Michael's full released power only created an 11-dimensional multiverse. This seems contradictory to me.
 
When Lucifer obtained the Dunamis Demiurgos, combined with his Lightbringer powers of shaping anything, he essentially became "God" . Granted, that Lucifer is still not as powerful as The Presence, not even close, but as described by the narrative, he had obtained the energy capable of creating anything couple with the power to shape anything.
 
Well, comics are contradictory. Besides, the DC Multiverse being 11-D comes from later stories from Grant Morrison, not Vertigo, and Morrison himself implies that there are things beyond the Multiverse and the Source Wall (With higher beings such as the Gendry and Multiverse-2, for instance).

I agree that it seems contradictory somewhat, but it is immensely in your face and it comes from the main Lucifer comic itself. It's not from an obscure spin-off by a later writer.

So really. the Lucifer comic never otherwise establishes how large Creation is (I use creation because universe and multiverse are very inconsistent terms there, i.e, see Lucifer's creation being called both a universe and a multiverse in different occasions). So this is pretty much the only definition of it's size.
 
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