DEATH BATTLE! Discussion Thread (All-time Death Battle Spoilers Alert)

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

"Contracts can take lifespan, senses, body parts, memories" - these can be explained biologically if we assume contracts are strictly metaphysical with no soul interpretation left to use then it becomes - "lifespan" - the biological process of human degradation, "senses" - simply signals in the brain the contract targets, "body parts" are targeted by contracts metaphysically souls aren't in the equation. "memories" - brain shenanigans a metaphysical contract targets. "It is metaphysical identity/body binding" - does mind control require a soul? "sound of Chainsaw Man’s engine" - it's strange but that's more like instinctual reactions if anything or conceptual persistence unrelated to souls.

You could have an abstract existence without necessarily needing a soul. "Nayuta being the Control Devil after Makima also shows identity can continue through rebirth even if memories/personality reset." - what identity does nayuta retain from makima?

"CSM does not say “humans have no soul.” It just does not explain souls directly." correct they don't explicitly say it but I feel like it's evident because humans and devil interactions are strictly conceptual. "That is already enough to argue they have some metaphysical self Yuji..." NO actually it is not because when we agree souls and metaphysics / conceptual things are different you then need to actually argue how yuji's soul attacks are broad enough to affect conceptual things outright but if you argue that then Yuji's attacks aren't really soul-based anymore and are just general conceptual hax at that point.

It's hard to explain but the spiritual attacks are one form of haxs that needs to interact with a thing that interacts to the spiritual haxs in the first place when something lacks that then naturally the hax wouldn't work. "It does not prove Denji resisted soul damage or poison" - true I was simply arguing that if Yuji's attacks did work on Denji specifically the soul damage then Pochita would come out. I wasn't arguing that denji "resisted soul damage or poison" in that instance since I was being charitable to your position by granting it completely.

Also no just because souls aren't defined doesn't mean that we can then assume souls exist in CSM. When soul damage starts affecting metaphysical concepts at that point its not soul damage anymore. The best analogy here is think of contracts and everything else as literal laws.

I think the issue here is that you’re applying an extremely strict standard to “souls” while allowing extremely broad interpretations for “purely conceptual/metaphysical biology.”

Like yes, in theory you can explain lifespan, senses, memories, etc through “metaphysical laws acting on biology.” But that is still fundamentally a non-physical layer interacting with a person’s existence. At that point the distinction between “soul,” “essence,” “metaphysical self,” or “conceptual identity” becomes mostly semantic in crossverse debating unless the series explicitly hard-denies one of them.

And CSM never does that.

You keep saying “contracts are conceptual laws,” but those laws still target individual existence. They recognize identity, ownership, lifespan, consciousness, memory, intent, promises, and selfhood. That is already far beyond normal biology. A literal biological robot framework would not meaningfully explain why contracts care about intent, agreement, sacrifice value, or identity continuity.

Also, saying “mind control doesn’t require a soul” is true, but that misses the point. The argument was never “contracts prove souls directly.” The argument is that CSM consistently acknowledges non-physical identity structures tied to beings beyond raw flesh. That weakens the claim that humans in CSM are purely material entities with no compatible inner-self for soul interaction.

And on Nayuta/Makima:
No, Nayuta does not retain Makima’s memories or personality, but she does retain the existence/role of the Control Devil. That is still identity persistence at a metaphysical level. The entity dies and reincarnates while maintaining the same fundamental existential classification. That is exactly why Kishibe immediately recognized Nayuta as the reincarnation of the Control Devil in the first place.

As for the engine sound point, calling it “instinctual” honestly doesn’t solve the issue either because instincts persisting across death/reincarnation is already evidence of non-physical continuity. Whether you call that spiritual, metaphysical, conceptual, or existential inheritance, it still demonstrates persistence beyond ordinary biology.

The main disagreement though is here:

"Yuji would need to affect conceptual things outright.”

No, not necessarily. Soul attacks in fiction do not require the target verse to define souls identically. Crossverse debating works off functional interaction. If a verse has:

• persistent identity,
• non-physical existence,
• metaphysical continuity,
• reincarnation,
• consciousness interaction,
• contracts binding selfhood/existence,

then there is already enough there for soul interaction arguments unless the verse explicitly shows immunity or incompatibility.

Otherwise you run into absurd conclusions where characters from verses that never explicitly use the word “soul” become immune to all soul manipulation by default despite clearly having metaphysical existence systems.

And honestly, your “literal laws” analogy kind of hurts your own point a bit. Laws still govern something. If contracts are metaphysical laws acting on a being’s existence, then there is already an underlying metaphysical existence being interacted with. Yuji’s attacks do not need to suddenly become “general conceptual hax” for that interaction to work.

Especially because JJK itself distinguishes body and soul as connected but separate layers of existence. Mahito’s entire technique revolves around that distinction. Yuji damaging Mahito proves Yuji can interact with that deeper layer. Crossverse equalization then asks: “does the other verse possess an equivalent deeper existence/identity layer?” CSM pretty clearly does.

You do not need CSM humans to have a Christian-style immortal soul for Yuji’s soul interaction to function. You just need them to possess a metaphysical self/identity layer beyond raw biology, and CSM repeatedly shows that they do.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Isn't the default assumption that organic beings have souls unless stated otherwise anyway?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Giving Red Ribbon Army Cell is just Bullshit, but whatever

To be fair without him and the other composite stuff they get washed going by our profiles.

 

[Hatsumin]

I literally gave my evidence and proof above, not my fault you dont buy it and thats 100% not what I did, but ok.

Well you said that

I literally gave my evidence and proof above, not my fault you dont buy it and thats 100% not what I did, but ok.

none of it points to a soul because i showed how all of them are law based or metaphysical based and metaphysical interacts do not require a soul at all. arguing supernatural contracts controls "memories" or whatever else doesn't mean a soul exists explicitly it just means magic if anything because of the nature of how it interacts with said things. You can't say your examples prove a soul exists when they are also covered by the more obvious metaphysical explanation for CSM's case specifically. Basically nothing you pointed to specifically requires a soul to function.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Lmao ok man

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

 

[Hatsumin]

I think the issue here is that you’re applying an extremely strict standard to “souls” while allowing extremely broad interpretations for “purely conceptual/metaphysical biology.”

Like yes, in theory you can explain lifespan, senses, memories, etc through “metaphysical laws acting on biology.” But that is still fundamentally a non-physical layer interacting with a person’s existence. At that point the distinction between “soul,” “essence,” “metaphysical self,” or “conceptual identity” becomes mostly semantic in crossverse debating unless the series explicitly hard-denies one of them.

And CSM never does that.

You keep saying “contracts are conceptual laws,” but those laws still target individual existence. They recognize identity, ownership, lifespan, consciousness, memory, intent, promises, and selfhood. That is already far beyond normal biology. A literal biological robot framework would not meaningfully explain why contracts care about intent, agreement, sacrifice value, or identity continuity.

Also, saying “mind control doesn’t require a soul” is true, but that misses the point. The argument was never “contracts prove souls directly.” The argument is that CSM consistently acknowledges non-physical identity structures tied to beings beyond raw flesh. That weakens the claim that humans in CSM are purely material entities with no compatible inner-self for soul interaction.

And on Nayuta/Makima:
No, Nayuta does not retain Makima’s memories or personality, but she does retain the existence/role of the Control Devil. That is still identity persistence at a metaphysical level. The entity dies and reincarnates while maintaining the same fundamental existential classification. That is exactly why Kishibe immediately recognized Nayuta as the reincarnation of the Control Devil in the first place.

As for the engine sound point, calling it “instinctual” honestly doesn’t solve the issue either because instincts persisting across death/reincarnation is already evidence of non-physical continuity. Whether you call that spiritual, metaphysical, conceptual, or existential inheritance, it still demonstrates persistence beyond ordinary biology.

The main disagreement though is here:

"Yuji would need to affect conceptual things outright.”

No, not necessarily. Soul attacks in fiction do not require the target verse to define souls identically. Crossverse debating works off functional interaction. If a verse has:

• persistent identity,
• non-physical existence,
• metaphysical continuity,
• reincarnation,
• consciousness interaction,
• contracts binding selfhood/existence,

then there is already enough there for soul interaction arguments unless the verse explicitly shows immunity or incompatibility.

Otherwise you run into absurd conclusions where characters from verses that never explicitly use the word “soul” become immune to all soul manipulation by default despite clearly having metaphysical existence systems.

And honestly, your “literal laws” analogy kind of hurts your own point a bit. Laws still govern something. If contracts are metaphysical laws acting on a being’s existence, then there is already an underlying metaphysical existence being interacted with. Yuji’s attacks do not need to suddenly become “general conceptual hax” for that interaction to work.

Especially because JJK itself distinguishes body and soul as connected but separate layers of existence. Mahito’s entire technique revolves around that distinction. Yuji damaging Mahito proves Yuji can interact with that deeper layer. Crossverse equalization then asks: “does the other verse possess an equivalent deeper existence/identity layer?” CSM pretty clearly does.

You do not need CSM humans to have a Christian-style immortal soul for Yuji’s soul interaction to function. You just need them to possess a metaphysical self/identity layer beyond raw biology, and CSM repeatedly shows that they do.

"purely conceptual/metaphysical biology" - because it is broad while things involving souls is stricter.

The mahito argument is loose because in JJK soul's are interactable through the body in the JJK verse but this can't be extended to other verses where this isn't the case even if we want to argue for souls.

Devil's don't have souls they are abstract concepts made from humanity's fears.

The whole contracts recognize certain things doesn't refute the simple fact that contracts are just conceptual laws.

Kishibe recognized Nayuta because she has ringed eyes and control powers.

Yuji can hit the boundary between two souls because JJK souls have literal, overlapping boundaries.

Denji and Pochita's bond is conceptual hax you would have to demonstrate that Yuji's soul attacks are in-fact conceptual hax based and not soul hax based for them to work on Denji and Pochita's bonds for example

 

[Thunderman101]

Well i did not say there would not be any consequence. This is what i said in one of the scenarios "he uses some blood to heal the poison away" Basically i acknowledge that the poison would affect Denji initially but he would heal it away similar to how i would assume he would be able to heal cancer away. The main part of your argument hinges on the "cursed" part of the poison being supernatural in nature.

Aside from that the mahito arguments about the soul is weird because JJK has a weird definition for the soul but for some reason that definition needs to be enforced to other verses who might have different definitions for souls or lack souls (CSM) It is hard to argue that soul attacks would work on CSM humans as at least to me it doesn't seem like humans in CSM actually have souls. I need an argument for why they have souls because all evidence points to them lacking souls.

you mentioned cursed and magical poison in the same sentence. What makes the poison magical other than it being cursed? I guess a good way to interpret this is while the poison is "supernatural" what are the actual effects is the poison doing to Denji's body? If the poison is simply maybe corroding his body, maybe melting organs or any other kind of damage of similar effect then yes Denji absolutely heals from the "supernatural poison" The only thing that would happen is Denji would take initial lingering damage but then his healing factor would out heal the blood damage. Denji doesn't need to resist or adapt to the poison. He simply has to out-heal the poison which i believe he does.

As for the soul attacks CSM's definition of the soul is that they lack souls so it's hard to say if the soul damage aspect would even work realistically. While there's a lot of conceptual stuff in CSM none of that equals explicit soul definition in anyway. Also DB at least would acknowledge Pochita and Denji's metaphysical bond is not soul related at all it's conceptual which doesn't necessarily equal there being souls involved at all contracts are metaphysical or conceptual based. Soul damage cannot be granted being able to affect a contract or metaphysical / conceptual stuff. Naturally it only affects Soul related conceptual stuff and contracts aren't soul based at all.

While Deadpool has a better healing factor I want to use him as an example. Yes Yuji's blood would affect Deadpool but Deadpool would simply out heal the blood, he doesn't need resistances or adaptability to do it even if he has resistances or adaptability. So I agree that Yuji's blood would affect Denji I don't believe it would have any relevant lasting effect on Denji because he would just out-heal the actual effects of the blood in the first place. As for soul based damage CSM has a lot of conceptual stuff in it with the devils and contracts but nowhere inside CSM is a definition or even evidence for a soul of any kind for humans. Devils have reincarnation but i would argue that doesn't confirm a soul instead it is simply a metaphysical / conceptual process of being a devil like how devils are manifested from humans fears their existence is from human thoughts. I don't know if i covered everything but my laptop crashed and windows forced an update on me even though my updates were paused so... I'll try to address any follow ups you might have.

verse eqalization means souls, like it or not, they dont have resistance to sul manip so why is ths an arument

 

[Hatsumin]

verse eqalization means souls, like it or not, they dont have resistance to sul manip so why is ths an arument

when i read verse equalization the whole point was it only applies when the systems are similar. Hence why CSM is incompatible with JJK broadly speaking in the first place whereas Chakra, chi, ki are more compatible but chakra is more iffy for biological reasons so when it comes to chakra at least senjutsu does a lot of heavy lifting. With JJK the soul caveat is the fact that in JJK soul and body interact with one another in the JJK verse specifically.

 

[Hatsumin]

verse eqalization means souls, like it or not, they dont have resistance to sul manip so why is ths an arument

They also don't need explicit "resistance to souls" if they just don't have souls to begin with similar to how Robots lack souls but you aren't going to stick soul resistance in every robot's profile. It's self-evident in the physiology itself.

 

[Thunderman101]

They also don't need explicit "resistance to souls" if they just don't have souls to begin with similar to how Robots lack souls but you aren't going to stick soul resistance in every robot's profile. It's self-evident in the physiology itself.

is denji a robot?

 

[Hatsumin]

is denji a robot?

I used the term biological robot to refer to beings that are flesh in nature but don't have souls.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

"purely conceptual/metaphysical biology" - because it is broad while things involving souls is stricter.

The mahito argument is loose because in JJK soul's are interactable through the body in the JJK verse but this can't be extended to other verses where this isn't the case even if we want to argue for souls.

Devil's don't have souls they are abstract concepts made from humanity's fears.

The whole contracts recognize certain things doesn't refute the simple fact that contracts are just conceptual laws.

Kishibe recognized Nayuta because she has ringed eyes and control powers.

Yuji can hit the boundary between two souls because JJK souls have literal, overlapping boundaries.

Denji and Pochita's bond is conceptual hax you would have to demonstrate that Yuji's soul attacks are in-fact conceptual hax based and not soul hax based for them to work on Denji and Pochita's bonds for example

I think we’re just reaching the point where you’re demanding a level of explicitness from CSM that crossverse debating usually does not require.

Nobody is saying Yuji has “conceptual manipulation.” That’s not the argument. The argument is much simpler:

JJK establishes that beings possess a deeper non-physical layer of self/existence called the soul. Yuji can interact with that layer. Crossverse equalization then checks whether the opposing verse has an equivalent inner existence/selfhood structure.

CSM very obviously does.

Not necessarily in the exact JJK format, not necessarily with overlapping soul outlines like Mahito describes, but clearly beyond pure biology.

Because again, your alternative explanation creates bigger assumptions than the soul interaction argument does.

You say:

“Contracts are just conceptual laws.”

Okay, but conceptual laws acting on what exactly?

Contracts:

• recognize individuals,
• distinguish identity,
• bind agreements,
• target lifespan,
• alter memory,
• affect consciousness,
• persist through hybrid transformations,
• and maintain Denji/Pochita as distinct entities sharing one existence.

That is already interaction with a non-purely-physical self. Calling it “conceptual law” does not remove the existence of the thing being affected.

And the “devils are abstract fears” point also doesn’t really help your case. Being conceptual beings does not mean they lack souls or soul-equivalent existence. Plenty of fictional verses have conceptual entities that still possess spiritual identities, consciousness, or metaphysical selves. Those are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the Mahito point is not “loose.” Mahito explicitly establishes:

• body and soul are the separate
• the soul shapes the body,
• and damaging the soul bypasses normal physical interaction.

Yuji being able to strike Mahito directly is important because it proves Yuji’s attacks are not merely targeting flesh. He can affect the deeper layer underneath physical form.

Now, does CSM use the exact same overlapping-boundary mechanics? No. But crossverse debates almost never require identical cosmology structure. Otherwise Genjutsu wouldn’t work outside Naruto, JoJo stands wouldn’t affect verses without stands, etc. Equalization exists because fiction uses different terminology for similar metaphysical systems.

And honestly, the Denji/Pochita example weakens your position more than it helps it.

You’re saying:

“their bond is conceptual, not soul-based.”

But Yuji does not need to attack the contract itself. He needs to attack Denji’s underlying existence/self. The contract merely links Denji and Pochita together. If anything, JJK soul interaction becomes more relevant there because Denji and Pochita are literally two consciousnesses/entities inhabiting one shared existence. That is extremely similar to Sukuna/Yuji dynamics conceptually.

In fact, JJK directly shows souls coexisting within one body:

• Yuji/Sukuna,
• Hana/Angel,
• and Mahito’s explanations of overlapping souls.

So saying Yuji interacting with Denji/Pochita is impossible because their connection is “conceptual” feels weird when JJK already deals heavily with shared-body metaphysical coexistence.

At the end of the day, the issue is this:

You are treating “CSM never explicitly says the word soul” as evidence of soul absence, when canon never actually supports that conclusion. Meanwhile the verse repeatedly shows:

• metaphysical identity,
• persistence after death,
• reincarnation,
• shared existence,
• supernatural contracts,
• consciousness interaction,
• and non-physical continuity.

That is already enough for most versus standards to allow soul interaction unless the verse explicitly demonstrates incompatibility or immunity, and CSM never does.

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

I wonder if Adachi also has a twitter account

 

[ZeNoviceArtist]

 

[JoshDoshMosh]

I wonder if Adachi also has a twitter account

Adachi probably follows atleast one manosphere content creator

 

[ZeNoviceArtist]

I wonder if Adachi also has a twitter account

I feel like Adachi would've been more chud-coded if he was a McDonald's worker or something.

 

[Hatsumin]

I think we’re just reaching the point where you’re demanding a level of explicitness from CSM that crossverse debating usually does not require.

Nobody is saying Yuji has “conceptual manipulation.” That’s not the argument. The argument is much simpler:

JJK establishes that beings possess a deeper non-physical layer of self/existence called the soul. Yuji can interact with that layer. Crossverse equalization then checks whether the opposing verse has an equivalent inner existence/selfhood structure.

CSM very obviously does.

Not necessarily in the exact JJK format, not necessarily with overlapping soul outlines like Mahito describes, but clearly beyond pure biology.

Because again, your alternative explanation creates bigger assumptions than the soul interaction argument does.

You say:

“Contracts are just conceptual laws.”

Okay, but conceptual laws acting on what exactly?

Contracts:

• recognize individuals,
• distinguish identity,
• bind agreements,
• target lifespan,
• alter memory,
• affect consciousness,
• persist through hybrid transformations,
• and maintain Denji/Pochita as distinct entities sharing one existence.

That is already interaction with a non-purely-physical self. Calling it “conceptual law” does not remove the existence of the thing being affected.

And the “devils are abstract fears” point also doesn’t really help your case. Being conceptual beings does not mean they lack souls or soul-equivalent existence. Plenty of fictional verses have conceptual entities that still possess spiritual identities, consciousness, or metaphysical selves. Those are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the Mahito point is not “loose.” Mahito explicitly establishes:

• body and soul are the separate
• the soul shapes the body,
• and damaging the soul bypasses normal physical interaction.

Yuji being able to strike Mahito directly is important because it proves Yuji’s attacks are not merely targeting flesh. He can affect the deeper layer underneath physical form.

Now, does CSM use the exact same overlapping-boundary mechanics? No. But crossverse debates almost never require identical cosmology structure. Otherwise Genjutsu wouldn’t work outside Naruto, JoJo stands wouldn’t affect verses without stands, etc. Equalization exists because fiction uses different terminology for similar metaphysical systems.

And honestly, the Denji/Pochita example weakens your position more than it helps it.

You’re saying:

“their bond is conceptual, not soul-based.”

But Yuji does not need to attack the contract itself. He needs to attack Denji’s underlying existence/self. The contract merely links Denji and Pochita together. If anything, JJK soul interaction becomes more relevant there because Denji and Pochita are literally two consciousnesses/entities inhabiting one shared existence. That is extremely similar to Sukuna/Yuji dynamics conceptually.

In fact, JJK directly shows souls coexisting within one body:

• Yuji/Sukuna,
• Hana/Angel,
• and Mahito’s explanations of overlapping souls.

So saying Yuji interacting with Denji/Pochita is impossible because their connection is “conceptual” feels weird when JJK already deals heavily with shared-body metaphysical coexistence.

At the end of the day, the issue is this:

You are treating “CSM never explicitly says the word soul” as evidence of soul absence, when canon never actually supports that conclusion. Meanwhile the verse repeatedly shows:

• metaphysical identity,
• persistence after death,
• reincarnation,
• shared existence,
• supernatural contracts,
• consciousness interaction,
• and non-physical continuity.

That is already enough for most versus standards to allow soul interaction unless the verse explicitly demonstrates incompatibility or immunity, and CSM never does.

"CSM very obviously does" - where? The mind itself wouldn't count for obvious reasons.

"conceptual laws acting on what exactly?" - biology, information and physics

"That is extremely similar to Sukuna/Yuji dynamics conceptually." - well sukuna was a cursed object consisting of parts of his literal soul and since in JJK soul and body interact with each other sukuna's soul as silly as it sounds physically touched and latched on to yuji's soul and yuji can affect the boundary between sukuna and megumi's soul because of how the JJK soul system works.

"Denji and Pochita are literally two consciousnesses/entities inhabiting one shared existence" - Pochita is Denji's literal heart. It's more like two brains inhabiting one body but also there's a conceptual link between these two brains tracking biology, information and physics.

"...He can affect the deeper layer underneath physical form" - Yuji's hax requires "soul and body interact with each other to shape each other" logic to work well otherwise there is nothing to target if the character doesn't have this internal soul framework from the get go because.

"unless the verse explicitly..." - by this logic you could argue other power systems would apply to CSM but seriously CSM has everything defined through conceptual fear logic so the JJK system can't be applied to it because it's incompatible and CSM not explicitly showing or stating "by the way no human or devil possesses a soul" should not give anyone a free pass to inject a different system like the JJK soul system into that system.

"Plenty of fictional verses have conceptual entities that still possess spiritual identities, consciousness, or metaphysical selves" - well devils are manifested from humanity's collective unconscious here not "spiritual identities" and consciousness and metaphysical selves falls under conceptual manipulation and not soul manipulation.
"

• recognize individuals,
• distinguish identity,
• bind agreements,
• target lifespan,
• alter memory,
• affect consciousness,
• persist through hybrid transformations,
• and maintain Denji/Pochita as distinct entities sharing one existence." - all of this is explained by it being all in the brain unless explicitly stated otherwise. Memory doesn't need to imply soul it can imply strict biology, same with a contract recognizing individuals it doesn't need to rely on souls to even do this it just doesn't that's the whole point of it being conceptual in the first place. reincarnation doesn't imply souls either here because devils are made from human's fears nothing else using reincarnation to prove souls here is an assumption on your part whereas my statement about devils being created from humanity's fears and using that to explain reincarnation is not an assumption because i am appealing to their nature directly.

"

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

"CSM very obviously does" - where? The mind itself wouldn't count for obvious reasons.

"conceptual laws acting on what exactly?" - biology, information and physics

"That is extremely similar to Sukuna/Yuji dynamics conceptually." - well sukuna was a cursed object consisting of parts of his literal soul and since in JJK soul and body interact with each other sukuna's soul as silly as it sounds physically touched and latched on to yuji's soul and yuji can affect the boundary between sukuna and megumi's soul because of how the JJK soul system works.

"Denji and Pochita are literally two consciousnesses/entities inhabiting one shared existence" - Pochita is Denji's literal heart. It's more like two brains inhabiting one body but also there's a conceptual link between these two brains tracking biology, information and physics.

"...He can affect the deeper layer underneath physical form" - Yuji's hax requires "soul and body interact with each other to shape each other" logic to work well otherwise there is nothing to target if the character doesn't have this internal soul framework from the get go because.

"unless the verse explicitly..." - by this logic you could argue other power systems would apply to CSM but seriously CSM has everything defined through conceptual fear logic so the JJK system can't be applied to it because it's incompatible and CSM not explicitly showing or stating "by the way no human or devil possesses a soul" should not give anyone a free pass to inject a different system like the JJK soul system into that system.

"Plenty of fictional verses have conceptual entities that still possess spiritual identities, consciousness, or metaphysical selves" - well devils are manifested from humanity's collective unconscious here not "spiritual identities" and consciousness and metaphysical selves falls under conceptual manipulation and not soul manipulation.
"

• recognize individuals,
• distinguish identity,
• bind agreements,
• target lifespan,
• alter memory,
• affect consciousness,
• persist through hybrid transformations,
• and maintain Denji/Pochita as distinct entities sharing one existence." - all of this is explained by it being all in the brain unless explicitly stated otherwise. Memory doesn't need to imply soul it can imply strict biology, same with a contract recognizing individuals it doesn't need to rely on souls to even do this it just doesn't that's the whole point of it being conceptual in the first place. reincarnation doesn't imply souls either here because devils are made from human's fears nothing else using reincarnation to prove souls here is an assumption on your part whereas my statement about devils being created from humanity's fears and using that to explain reincarnation is not an assumption because i am appealing to their nature directly.

"

I think the core problem here is that you keep reducing every non-physical aspect of CSM into “just biology/information/physics” while simultaneously treating JJK’s soul system as something that only works under its exact native ruleset.

But crossverse debating does not work that rigidly.

Because by that logic, almost every soul/spiritual power in fiction would instantly fail outside its home verse unless the target verse explicitly says:

«“yes, we have identical souls with identical mechanics.”»

That’s just not how equalization is usually handled.

And honestly, your argument starts becoming unfalsifiable because every example gets collapsed into:

• “that’s just information,”
• “that’s just conceptual law,”
• “that’s just biology,”
• “that’s just physics.”

At that point, literally any metaphysical system could be dismissed that way.

Memory manipulation? “Just brain information.”
Identity persistence? “Just conceptual data.”
Shared existence? “Just linked biology.”
Consciousness interaction? “Just physics.”

You’re not disproving metaphysical existence there — you’re re-labeling it.

The issue is that CSM itself does not present these phenomena as purely materialistic neuroscience. The series constantly treats contracts, devils, fear, reincarnation, Hell, and hybrid existence as supernatural systems beyond ordinary biology.

For example:

• Devils are born from fear itself.
• Fear strengthens them conceptually.
• Erasure by Chainsaw Man alters reality/history.
• Hybrids violate normal death.
• Contracts can enforce supernatural consequences regardless of physical logic.

That is already operating far beyond strict biology and physics.

And on the Sukuna point:
Yes, Sukuna is explicitly soul-based in JJK. Nobody disputes that. But the important thing is function, not identical composition.

Yuji can distinguish and interact with multiple existences sharing one vessel. That matters because Denji/Pochita is ALSO a dual-entity shared existence scenario. The mechanics differ, but the functional interaction category is comparable.

You keep saying:

«“Pochita is literally Denji’s heart.”»

But that’s not the full story canonically. Pochita is not merely an organ replacement. He is a separate conscious existence bound to Denji through a supernatural contract. Denji literally survives impossible states because of that bond. The relationship is metaphysical AND biological simultaneously.

And honestly, your “there is nothing to target if the verse lacks JJK soul framework” argument is where the reasoning breaks down most.

Because JJK itself never says:

“soul attacks only function on beings with JJK-certified souls.”

Mahito’s technique targets the essence/self shaping the body. Crossverse equalization simply asks whether the opposing verse has an analogous inner existence layer.

CSM objectively has:

• identity persistence,
• consciousness separation,
• supernatural existence,
• non-physical contracts,
• conceptual rebirth,
• and shared-body coexistence.

You can call that:

• conceptual identity,
• metaphysical self,
• existential framework,
• informational existence,
• whatever.

But at that point you are mostly arguing semantics, not functional incompatibility.

And finally, on devils:
Yes, devils are born from fear. Nobody disagrees. But “born from fear” does not inherently mean “cannot possess souls/spiritual selves/metaphysical existence.” Those are not mutually exclusive concepts.

The problem is that your argument assumes:

“because CSM explains devils through fear, all spiritual interpretation is impossible.”

But canon never says that. That is an interpretation you are imposing onto the verse.

Meanwhile, the safer crossverse assumption is simply:
CSM contains non-physical identity/existence structures, therefore soul interaction arguments are at least applicable unless directly contradicted.

And CSM never directly contradicts that.

 

[Hatsumin]

I think we’re just reaching the point where you’re demanding a level of explicitness from CSM that crossverse debating usually does not require.

Nobody is saying Yuji has “conceptual manipulation.” That’s not the argument. The argument is much simpler:

JJK establishes that beings possess a deeper non-physical layer of self/existence called the soul. Yuji can interact with that layer. Crossverse equalization then checks whether the opposing verse has an equivalent inner existence/selfhood structure.

CSM very obviously does.

Not necessarily in the exact JJK format, not necessarily with overlapping soul outlines like Mahito describes, but clearly beyond pure biology.

Because again, your alternative explanation creates bigger assumptions than the soul interaction argument does.

You say:

“Contracts are just conceptual laws.”

Okay, but conceptual laws acting on what exactly?

Contracts:

• recognize individuals,
• distinguish identity,
• bind agreements,
• target lifespan,
• alter memory,
• affect consciousness,
• persist through hybrid transformations,
• and maintain Denji/Pochita as distinct entities sharing one existence.

That is already interaction with a non-purely-physical self. Calling it “conceptual law” does not remove the existence of the thing being affected.

And the “devils are abstract fears” point also doesn’t really help your case. Being conceptual beings does not mean they lack souls or soul-equivalent existence. Plenty of fictional verses have conceptual entities that still possess spiritual identities, consciousness, or metaphysical selves. Those are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the Mahito point is not “loose.” Mahito explicitly establishes:

• body and soul are the separate
• the soul shapes the body,
• and damaging the soul bypasses normal physical interaction.

Yuji being able to strike Mahito directly is important because it proves Yuji’s attacks are not merely targeting flesh. He can affect the deeper layer underneath physical form.

Now, does CSM use the exact same overlapping-boundary mechanics? No. But crossverse debates almost never require identical cosmology structure. Otherwise Genjutsu wouldn’t work outside Naruto, JoJo stands wouldn’t affect verses without stands, etc. Equalization exists because fiction uses different terminology for similar metaphysical systems.

And honestly, the Denji/Pochita example weakens your position more than it helps it.

You’re saying:

“their bond is conceptual, not soul-based.”

But Yuji does not need to attack the contract itself. He needs to attack Denji’s underlying existence/self. The contract merely links Denji and Pochita together. If anything, JJK soul interaction becomes more relevant there because Denji and Pochita are literally two consciousnesses/entities inhabiting one shared existence. That is extremely similar to Sukuna/Yuji dynamics conceptually.

In fact, JJK directly shows souls coexisting within one body:

• Yuji/Sukuna,
• Hana/Angel,
• and Mahito’s explanations of overlapping souls.

So saying Yuji interacting with Denji/Pochita is impossible because their connection is “conceptual” feels weird when JJK already deals heavily with shared-body metaphysical coexistence.

At the end of the day, the issue is this:

You are treating “CSM never explicitly says the word soul” as evidence of soul absence, when canon never actually supports that conclusion. Meanwhile the verse repeatedly shows:

• metaphysical identity,
• persistence after death,
• reincarnation,
• shared existence,
• supernatural contracts,
• consciousness interaction,
• and non-physical continuity.

That is already enough for most versus standards to allow soul interaction unless the verse explicitly demonstrates incompatibility or immunity, and CSM never does.

"That is already enough for most versus standards to allow soul interaction unless the verse explicitly demonstrates incompatibility or immunity, and CSM never does." - I would simply argue cosmological incompatibility.

CSM has an explicit way life and death works also for example if Yoru or any devil had a soul their essence wouldn't be determined by humanity's collective unconsciousness / fear. It's basically dependant on human thoughts and memories.

The main thing here is also the fact that Pochita ate the 4 alternative deaths / afterlifes and it is explicitly 4 afterlifes besides death. Pochita ate them and they haven't ever returned. Besides death does the heavy lifting if souls existed they've been erased. Death is all that is left.

The deeper layer of a devil is just human fear.

 

[Hatsumin]

I think the core problem here is that you keep reducing every non-physical aspect of CSM into “just biology/information/physics” while simultaneously treating JJK’s soul system as something that only works under its exact native ruleset.

But crossverse debating does not work that rigidly.

Because by that logic, almost every soul/spiritual power in fiction would instantly fail outside its home verse unless the target verse explicitly says:

«“yes, we have identical souls with identical mechanics.”»

That’s just not how equalization is usually handled.

And honestly, your argument starts becoming unfalsifiable because every example gets collapsed into:

• “that’s just information,”
• “that’s just conceptual law,”
• “that’s just biology,”
• “that’s just physics.”

At that point, literally any metaphysical system could be dismissed that way.

Memory manipulation? “Just brain information.”
Identity persistence? “Just conceptual data.”
Shared existence? “Just linked biology.”
Consciousness interaction? “Just physics.”

You’re not disproving metaphysical existence there — you’re re-labeling it.

The issue is that CSM itself does not present these phenomena as purely materialistic neuroscience. The series constantly treats contracts, devils, fear, reincarnation, Hell, and hybrid existence as supernatural systems beyond ordinary biology.

For example:

• Devils are born from fear itself.
• Fear strengthens them conceptually.
• Erasure by Chainsaw Man alters reality/history.
• Hybrids violate normal death.
• Contracts can enforce supernatural consequences regardless of physical logic.

That is already operating far beyond strict biology and physics.

And on the Sukuna point:
Yes, Sukuna is explicitly soul-based in JJK. Nobody disputes that. But the important thing is function, not identical composition.

Yuji can distinguish and interact with multiple existences sharing one vessel. That matters because Denji/Pochita is ALSO a dual-entity shared existence scenario. The mechanics differ, but the functional interaction category is comparable.

You keep saying:

«“Pochita is literally Denji’s heart.”»

But that’s not the full story canonically. Pochita is not merely an organ replacement. He is a separate conscious existence bound to Denji through a supernatural contract. Denji literally survives impossible states because of that bond. The relationship is metaphysical AND biological simultaneously.

And honestly, your “there is nothing to target if the verse lacks JJK soul framework” argument is where the reasoning breaks down most.

Because JJK itself never says:

“soul attacks only function on beings with JJK-certified souls.”

Mahito’s technique targets the essence/self shaping the body. Crossverse equalization simply asks whether the opposing verse has an analogous inner existence layer.

CSM objectively has:

• identity persistence,
• consciousness separation,
• supernatural existence,
• non-physical contracts,
• conceptual rebirth,
• and shared-body coexistence.

You can call that:

• conceptual identity,
• metaphysical self,
• existential framework,
• informational existence,
• whatever.

But at that point you are mostly arguing semantics, not functional incompatibility.

And finally, on devils:
Yes, devils are born from fear. Nobody disagrees. But “born from fear” does not inherently mean “cannot possess souls/spiritual selves/metaphysical existence.” Those are not mutually exclusive concepts.

The problem is that your argument assumes:

“because CSM explains devils through fear, all spiritual interpretation is impossible.”

But canon never says that. That is an interpretation you are imposing onto the verse.

Meanwhile, the safer crossverse assumption is simply:
CSM contains non-physical identity/existence structures, therefore soul interaction arguments are at least applicable unless directly contradicted.

And CSM never directly contradicts that.

What do you think of the 4 afterlifes besides "DEATH" in CSM? To quote specifically it is "Four possible conclusions other than death at the end of livings beings lifespans"

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think of the 4 afterlifes besides "DEATH" in CSM? To quote specifically it is "Four possible conclusions other than death at the end of livings beings lifespans"

Based off religion:

1. Reincarnation
2. Fusing with some object such as a tree
3. Ascension
4. Enter a spirit world

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

What do you think of the 4 afterlifes besides "DEATH" in CSM? To quote specifically it is "Four possible conclusions other than death at the end of livings beings lifespans"

Could you clarify please?

 

[Hatsumin]

Based off religion:

1. Reincarnation
2. Fusing with some object such as a tree
3. Ascension
4. Enter a spirit world

"Enter a spirit world" Just common sense assumptions shows the incompatibility CSM has with souls. Pochita erased it.

 

[Hatsumin]

Could you clarify please?

Basically Pochita erased the other outcomes other than "death" one would have at the end of their life but it's not specificied what they were.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Midsaw Man doesn't need a strongest soldier trying to defend it and its looping arc protagonist.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Basically Pochita erased the other outcomes other than "death" one would have at the end of their life but it's not specificied what they were.

Personally, I think it’s one of the craziest cosmology things in CSM

The wording implies that before Pochita erased them, living beings originally had multiple possible “ends” besides death. But Fujimoto intentionally keeps it vague, so we don’t know if they were:

• afterlives,
• reincarnation states,
• conceptual continuations,
• alternate existential outcomes,
• etc.

 

[Hatsumin]

Personally, I think it’s one of the craziest cosmology things in CSM

The wording implies that before Pochita erased them, living beings originally had multiple possible “ends” besides death. But Fujimoto intentionally keeps it vague, so we don’t know if they were:

• afterlives,
• reincarnation states,
• conceptual continuations,
• alternate existential outcomes,
• etc.

Yeah because "Themes and such"-moto loves a vague story but that aside i think this kind of bricks a lot of the soul arguments even if not really defined. Aside from Devils being based on human thoughts explicitly which applies for devils. The 4 conclusions other than death definitely applies to humans.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I don't care who wins this DB, and I don't care who wins the next.

 

[Dravec]

you can't use spiritual and metaphysical interchangeably, they are not the same thing or even close to being the same thing.

They literally are similar. Metaphysical also means supernatural, which spirits obviously are.

 

[Hatsumin]

They literally are similar. Metaphysical also means supernatural, which spirits obviously are.

spirits are a subset of supernatural. Just because something is supernatural does not mean spirits are involved which i don't think you claiming to be fair.

 

[TMaakkonen]

I dont mind Denji win because pity to avoid 0-3. Also its debatable maybe technically I dunno.

I root Sentry out of 'DC wins too much' spite. Think casual wise Prime should Prime but DB could easily stat equalize them because lol

 

[Hatsumin]

Isn't Prime busted because of that famous punch? Also prime is the expected winner I think too.

I dont mind Denji win because pity to avoid 0-3. Also its debatable maybe technically I dunno.

I root Sentry out of 'DC wins too much' spite. Think casual wise Prime should Prime but DB could easily stat equalize them because lol

 

[Dravec]

spirits are a subset of supernatural. Just because something is supernatural does not mean spirits are involved which i don't think you claiming to be fair.

Spiritual and supernatural are literally synonyms of metaphysical.

 

[Hatsumin]

Spiritual and supernatural are literally synonyms of metaphysical.

what's your point? X and Y does not equal Z.

 

[Dravec]

what's your point? X and Y does not equal Z.

My point is that you seem to lack understanding of the English language. You're equating three words that definitionaly mean the same thing and saying "no akshually they're different".

 

[Hatsumin]

My point is that you seem to lack understanding of the English language. You're equating three words that definitionaly mean the same thing and saying "no akshually they're different".

"definitionaly mean the same thing" - nope stop trying to lump them into having the exact same definition for one and yes they are different definitionally. Both spiritual and supernatural are a subset of metaphysics. Why would that be again?

 

[TMaakkonen]

I know Prime retcon punch is op because le cosmology and el hypertime or whatever but going by technicalities...

Isnt retcon punch simplified as sth that alters past? Therefore, if one were to be immune to past alteration, would it not be effective? So it might not be quite as OP move in this fight as one might think.

Ignoring stats lol

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I wonder what feat DB can use to justify equalizing strength for next time? Sentry's best scaling is matching World War Hulk IIRC but it was stated Hulk was holding back. He's got impressive showings against Base Thor and has no-diffed Herald tiers like Ares but that's obviously not on par with The Darkest Knight lol

 

[Gyra1524]

Fight Track is called "Infernal Combustion"