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Welcome to Pagemageddon! Bill Cipher Rework.

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ShionAH said:
7zaprh.jpg
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This is 1000000x better then anything I could ever do lmfao
 
We should wait for efficiente to come in at this point.

ShionAH said:
3:41

Is that pulse wave thing attack from Bill or Rift? It made the water tower come to life before Bill did anything to it
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It's from the Rift since the camera pans above Bill to show the Rift.
 
also I don’t know why your trying to make it out as if eficiente is someone that’s constantly trying to stop the verse from getting upgraded, didnt he defend tier 4 bill when someone tried to downgrade him?
 
I think it is very blatant for NEP Type 3 though, it fits very well the description. Bill is both 0 and 1 at the same time, and he referencing Schrodinger's Cat only makes it more tied to nature.
 
ZeedKZ said:
I think it is very blatant for NEP Type 3 though, it fits very well the description. Bill is both 0 and 1 at the same time, and he referencing Schrodinger's Cat only makes it more tied to nature.
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You said the nature, not the aspect though.
 
ZeedKZ said:
I think it is very blatant for NEP Type 3 though, it fits very well the description. Bill is both 0 and 1 at the same time, and he referencing Schrodinger's Cat only makes it more tied to nature.
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I agree with this. I want to see hear staffs opinions on it
 
Why though? Everything he is, he is also not, which fits perfectly into Nature Type 3, and for the Aspect, now thinking better, it fits in Type 5.

Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have a nonexistent one. Examples would include things like lacking a history. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile, together with any detail regarding what it makes them immune to.
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ZeedKZ said:
Why though? Everything he is, he is also not, which fits perfectly into Nature Type 3, and for the Aspect, now thinking better, it fits in Type 5.
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Would the aspect be Bills Information or maybe Body?
 
Eseseso said:
What about Transduality Type 1?
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I'm not really knowledgeable in Transduality, maybe the "immune to effects caused within it" can mean something, but I guess it would be something easier to argue combining the Nightmare Realm being lawless with no consistent physics or rules.
 
Someone should summarize what the arguments for 2-A are if that's what's being discussed next. I can also stop being lethargic and read. I'll go with the second but that doesn't mean that the first wouldn't be helpful.
 
he is stated twice to threaten the wider multiverse[4]
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To note, Ford already narrates Bill being a threat to the multiverse at a point in time when he barely knows him, only understanding that the 2-D Bill travels the multiverse to appear in the minds of others and possess them. So the 1º "threat to the multiverse" statement has nothing to do with being Multerse level, no need to include it.

and its also stated that the rip in reality would destroy the fabric of existence.[2]
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Let's see what he meant by "existence":
Not all of those necessarily refer to the rip, the first ones could mean that Bill would destroy the Earth regardless of how he can still destroy the universe after it. However, the rest do, and they all vary between directly referring to the rift or potentially doing so, whereas you need to push hard the "threat to the multiverse" into referring to the rift. We got the mechanics/logic of this too; The Nightmare Realm is spilling into the universe, because Bill wants to change this universe, therefore this will destroy the universe, it's super straightforward, this thing will only destroy 1 universe, not all of them.

Weirdmaggedon had already affected the multiverse slightly by having rift in other dimensions[10] further supporting the fact that Weirdmaggedon was a multiversal threat.
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This is massibly overselling it. What happened in the comic is that there were random leftover weird effects because of Weirdmaggedon, like glitches on phones & stuff. One of those were portals to other realities. That's it. There were portals opened at random due to leftover Reality Warping. That's not "affected the multiverse slightly", that's nothing. If the multiverse itself wasn't affected then you can't say that it was affected. How is "they were leftover portals being created due to leftover Reality Warping" proof that the final destruction that Reality Warping was going to cause is Multiversal rather than Universal? It's not because it's BS.

Bill is the king of the Nightmare Realm
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So, this is the type of thing I think people do by sheer imitation of other profiles. Ruling is nothing tier wise. If something doesn't matter to one's AP you don't write it as part of the justification.

and controls all of it
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He does control it to some degree but not all of it in a way that its size would matter. Remember how the rift would eventually destroy the universe? That's because Bill is making it so the Nightmare Realm is spilling into the universe, therefore making Bill stronger by the minute. See the issue? That's like saying that I'm Large Building level because I can move small parts of building1 into building 2, until making building 2 unrecognizable. I'm sure I would be Large Building level if I could snap my fingers and do that all at once, but I can't. The reference we had on Bill's control over the Nightmare Realm is that it took him like a week to move parts of it into our universe for him to move into ruling a town to rule the world, and then it would take him an unknown amount of time to go into ruling the universe, and then it would take an unknown amount of time for the universe to have too much & be destroyed.

, the nightmare realm is the space between universes making it infinite in size for encompassing the space between infinite universes[4]
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Actually not necessarily for this reasoning, but it is correct that it is that big because it has a series of wormholes to each universe.

it also contains "Penrose triangles" and "Penrose stairs" which are four dimensional[4]
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Containing single things that are four dimensional is irrelevant to the dimensionality of the whole place. Not that they had any qualitative superiority anyway. Its lack of laws are also a problem, given that we can clearly "see" a 3D Bill there, regardless of him being 2D at the time.

You can view all of human history in it
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That's characters being in the in the middle of the time scream, you can tell because Blendin says "We're in the middle of the time scream!", they're not in the Nightmare Realm. Even if they were, the place could have a clairvoyant view across time, you know.

" and its stated to be a higher realm"
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That doesn't mean anything. And it's the space between universes, positioning wise you can very much say it's higher.

"this all is supported by Ford needing the five dimensional calculus to help make the portal.[4]"
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A character can use 4D math to create a machine that can control 3D water, or 5D math to create a machine that can control 3D fire, or 6D math to create a machine that can control the 3D universe, it doesn't really mean anything.

You keep having this "I'm gonna use this to support believing this" moments but you fail to see where actual connections are and what is only vaguely related. Try to make comparisons on how things would work with regular dimensions; Imagine a paper with 2 circles and 2D characters inside those circles, they can't come out of the circles and the circles are universes to them. They can use higher dimensional math to create something that would allow them to go into the other circle. You may think that it's "more reasonable" that they go to a higher dimension if they use higher dimensional math and that in fact my example is less reasonable, but can you properly explain the why of it?

Nightmare realm was shaken as soon as the portal reopened[4]
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No it wasn't, that's as far as Ford perceived the shaking to be. He didn't perceive something of infinite size being affected, he just wrote that as he felt the situation to be and he was understandably wrong.

, Bill's death caused the rip to close[6] implying he was the one keeping it open and was likely going to increase the size
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Sure. It's weird, but at least it is shown that with some of Bill's powers things go back to normal if he is distracted, so that's somewhat related.

Ford at that point couldn't find an energy source powerful enough to kill Bill despite the fact he created something capable of containing the rift
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So, this is fallacious. When it comes to energy sources our wiki sometimes acts as if everything and everyone were masters of Energy Manip and could use the full power of everything just as long as it's used as an energy sources, which is not true.

Ford created something that could contain a portal, yes, that means that thing can contain a portal/Space Manip. Ford couldn't find an energy source powerful enough to kill Bill, yes, that means he couldn't find something with enough power to change the AP he needed to do that. This facts are not related, you can't just say that the thing that contains the rift can be used as a power source in a way that the power it would give would be = to the power it has to contain something.

Besides, the rift was far smaller at the time. When it was bigger & Bill was growing in power, every so often it was growing bigger, meaning that it's at its weakest there when at the size of a hamster.
 
You're not meant to understand that by what I wrote. Please show that to anyone near you and ask them what I meant, if not I can tell you, but I'm a little busy.
 
Eficiente said:
You're not meant to understand that by what I wrote. Please show that to anyone near you and ask them what I meant, if not I can tell you, but I'm a little busy.
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You said Ford was wrong in this case and his statement holds nothing. So I am asking for scans on this claim.
 
ShionAH said:
You said Ford was wrong in this case and his statement holds nothing. So I am asking for scans on this claim.
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What Eficiente means is that the quote doesn't have much value because Ford couldn't perceived a realm that big or infinite to begin with. On its own, this statement has the scent of flowery language and narrative push for the dramatic, something typical of every other everything shook moment in books. Using it as supporting evidence for a tier this high is dubious.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
What Eficiente means is that the quote doesn't have much value because Ford couldn't perceived a realm that big or infinite to begin with.
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Ford knows enough to understand these stuff. He doesnt have to perceive it, just feel the shake. Plus if it can shake the entire realm Ford feeling it is very much possible

I want to see the scan for this though, I am very curious
Magicomethkuon said:
On its own, this statement has the scent of flowery language and narrative push for the dramatic, something typical of every other everything shook moment in books. Using it as supporting evidence for a tier this high is dubious.
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MY EYES
 
Ford does use "the entire Nightmare Realm" to describe it, so there's a bit more credence to it, especially since lad is aware just how big the thing is
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Someone should summarize what the arguments for 2-A are if that's what's being discussed next.
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TheShape03 said:
2-A should already be something indisputable.

1) It is comparable to the portal (he keeps it open with his power and defeated the Shacktron, which was being powered by the portal), and the portal shook the entire Nightmare Realm.

2) It is a threat to the multiverse.

3) It was going to destroy all of existence (Time Baby only says that the rip originated in that dimension, not that it's only going to affect that dimension).

4) It has been shown that Weirdmaggedon was affecting other dimensions.

5) Ford spent a lot of time trying to get something with the power needed to kill Bill, although Ford in a short time can build things capable of containing the rift.
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ZeedKZ said:
I think it is very blatant for NEP Type 3 though, it fits very well the description. Bill is both 0 and 1 at the same time, and he referencing Schrodinger's Cat only makes it more tied to nature.
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Schrodingers cat itself from hellsing getting NEP like this was rejected so there’s that
 
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