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Welcome to Pagemageddon! Bill Cipher Rework.
- Thread starter ShionAH
- Start date
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- bill cipher gravity falls
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I never agreed/disagreed/neuter with the thread in any form or shape.
I simply told @Phoenks that this is how our standards work when he was constituting an opinion on scaling, as he was basing it on his personal preference rather than from the standards' perspective.
Moreover, please remove the bold formatting for @Phoenks and @Flashlight237, as they lack staff privileges for evaluations. Notably, @Phoenks is not a VSBW staff member (with no intention to be disrespectful)
Preferably, only add those who made a clear stance on the thread, and not according to how you interpret it, to avoid conflicts in the future.
Does not matter, her stance is notwithstanding valid. You can't simply invalidate a staff member's vote because they did not confirm their stance twice. She is an administrator, and she reached her own conclusion and provided input.
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These arguments didn't even originate from the episode as well, its just that the episodes popularity (lets face it GF threads aren't common) caused the thread to be created, and stryum already said that they were going to make a CRT already
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I am no more than a normal user sharing my view.
No need to withhold votes just because I posted something. Also, don't bold my opinion.
I assume Maverick probably came to her own conclusion. If that's her decision, then leave it be.
I wanted this to just go to staff tally anyway. There's not much new material here to debate about.
No need to withhold votes just because I posted something. Also, don't bold my opinion.
I assume Maverick probably came to her own conclusion. If that's her decision, then leave it be.
I wanted this to just go to staff tally anyway. There's not much new material here to debate about.
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The logic is extremely flawed, it doesn't matter what supernatural geniuses in fiction can do, Ford is Ford, if it isn't proven that he can put the power of the portal over space into the power other machines can do with attacks & their durability then you would be assuming that happens for no reason. You can't assume that they can transfer the AP of the things they do like that just because they're supernatural geniuses and because it's fiction, you are literally inventing what they do based on what other characters have done in fiction.
No, shaking that would be High 3-A since it's infinite in size. Likewise destroying it would be High 3-A. That's 1 infinity, 2-A would be all points in time across infinite universes and the space between them, the shaking is 1 far smaller thing that happens in the present.
Not 2-A. And yes, either he feels all of the Nightmare Realm shaking, or he feels the shaking as something that would affect all the Nightmare Realm, the range is the same. If I'm hit with an expanding energy ball that covers a country and say that it covered a country w/o seeing that then either I felt the country being covered or I felt the energy as something that would do that when it hit me, either way it's just as superhumanly impressive.
I disagree hard on those being "personal judgments", I go with what makes the most sense.
That's a completely unreasonable thing to say, you don't know that, you made up that, the context doesn't leave it as something implied yet you bring it up anyway. The context is narration of Ford's adventures as he lives them, every now & then saying how new info from the future makes him re-think things he lived, but he comments on that, and here even says "There was no time to question why" in regards to that.
If I were to say something like this myself, I would be able to back it up. I expect as much from you when you have time.
When a foe was ramming the Shacktron and forcing it back it got moved a little, if not harmed when hitting the ruins of a house. It's an anti-feat given that it has the LS to toss the monster it was fighting to the distance (At full power), but it's an insanely bigger anti-feat when saying that it dealt with a Bill at full power.
Not that the lack of logic behind 2-A Shacktron matters far more.
Aside from how that makes you feel, can you get deeper into why that is?
It's not the same as dismissing any statement of someone having affected a multiverse from anyone who doesn't have 2-A sensory abilities, you have many things going for that context:
- Narration stating the same, which helps.
- Prep time on what they're up against, which helps.
- Readings or math done on the run w/o prep time that gets the same results.
Oh so you meant scaling Bill's everything to the rift. Normally, it would be pretty good that everything is gone with Bill defeated. However, we also know that his realm was getting into ours little by little over time as Bill tried to do that, this are opposite notions that disallow Bill's every punch, kick and energy beams to scale to the fact that the rift would one day destroy the universe.
Yes, like many things with Bill we can assume "he wasn't even trying and that's why X", but we're not making the character, what we see is what we got, and so that's the best Bill can pull his world into ours.
- Ford is a reputable source in general, but not here, and he's not beyond being hyperbolic or wrong.
- No one said he's liar, that's an extreme.
- Yes, there is very much reason to think he's just exaggerating, see the issues with this again.
- False equivalence. In fact they usually have the right characters say the things that they would know per their skills or outright show how they get into that conclusion.
This is a terrible argument, reply to my bigger version of why I disagree with it. How are this 2 points not the same? Saying it's a "rip through dimensions" is new; no, it's not, it just allowed rips/portals to be made, why are you overselling it like that? If it was through dimensions with its effects in other universes then those other universes would have the same leftover weirdness the town of Gravity Falls had, which they don't, we just have portals into them because the leftover weirdness are random powers happening, among them portals.
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With how big the thread is, it would be better if comments like that come as a reply the biggest argument done against them.
That was before Bill grew them in size.
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I understand that the Nightmare Realm was accepted here as 2-A for being an infinite 4-dimensional structure.
Anyway, I'm starting to doubt the fact that the entire Nightmare Realm has been shaken, it should be logical that no matter how genius Ford is, he would be incapable of feeling a tremor on a Multiversal+ scale. Anyway, if we ignore that, the rift should be Low 2-C since it was going to destroy the universe, and the fact that the rift disappeared with Bill's death is evidence that he was keeping it open. The portal should also be Low 2-C, since the rift is a portal just like the original and if I remember correctly, the rift originated from the portal.
The Shacktron was powered by the portal, so it should still be Low 2-C if 2-A is debunked. I'm pretty sure it's been accepted here several times to scale something from the engine that powers it.
Edit: Example:
Magicomethkuon
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Also why is the Shacktron being powered by the portal at all considered a proof for 2-A AP? There are no supporting showings in the show. And using something as battery does not equal having power output at the total extent of its highest-end interpretation. Not in the absence of else to work with. This is truth in fiction and real life. It is even more the case in this forum. High ends of anything are looked upon with scrutiny equal to how high the tiering being judged is.
The deeper I look back into the absence of feats and very open-for-interpretation context surrounding Bill Cipher's suggested 2-A rating, the more it looks like giving him the highest-end every time is the only way 2-A stays. And this is not how VS Indexing works. In the absense of conclusive proof the end result is the low, safe and most consistent end. Count me with the ones who disagree.
The deeper I look back into the absence of feats and very open-for-interpretation context surrounding Bill Cipher's suggested 2-A rating, the more it looks like giving him the highest-end every time is the only way 2-A stays. And this is not how VS Indexing works. In the absense of conclusive proof the end result is the low, safe and most consistent end. Count me with the ones who disagree.
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Shacktron can harm those that can harm it, and since if it didn't have the Durability to take being powered by... well infinity, it'd just destroy itself...
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No, it's not on profiles or blogs accepted per a CRT.
When the universe is affected, it needs to be proven that it goes as in "all of time from its start to its end".
From this comment
See other comments above about that.
Good for that verse. But that doesn't mean that the standard assumption is that
- there are 0 inefficiencies in the mechanical components of a machine and its engine so that they both get the same power.
- That a machine made to do A (open a portal) can translate the power of that into B (powering up a robot).
- It's not even the general power it has when opening a portal, it's just what that did in the Nightmare Realm. Our universe wasn't moved.
- That this goes this durability as well for its metal & wooden surface. It's just a big robot made out of everything, it's tough because it's made tough, not because the portal powers its stats.
I disagree with a lot, but we need to focus on this first. The Resistance to Power Null seemed ok to me, but the scale is on the level of a random totem pole, which is far weaker than Bill.
Magicomethkuon
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We can not conclude that the Shacktron is being fed the power of infinite universes all at once, instead of taking in a constant, unspecified flow of energy that we should judge, on a whim. This is same as saying that a device powered by the sun must be star level without seeing proof. As a matter of fact it's worse because here the assumption is in the order of infinite universes.
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The thing is that (As I remember) the portal wasn't even supposed to do that, it was just supposed to open and allow someone to pass through it. It's something it did simply as a side effect of opening itself, and if they created a machine that uses the portal as an engine to power it, I don't see why I shouldn't be escalating to the power of something the portal does so casually. Especially when that kind of thing is accepted here repeatedly, not just the example I gave but there are more, examples like Sonic characters scaling to Low 4-C for defeating characters powered by the Chaos Emeralds, an Iron Man key scaling to 8-C+ because his arc reactor produces 8 gigajoules per second, and another key of Iron Man scaling to Low 7-B due to the power of his arc reactor even though his armor is simply metal.
What-
Ayewale
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I mean how much Ford knew of the nightmare realm before this moment is up in the air, but yeah this sounds at least somewhat correct.
Magicomethkuon
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Non sequitur. Any value can be taken out of infinity instead of necessarily taking a lesser yet still infinite value out of it every time. That's why showings of the one employing any given source need to be evaluated instead of assuming the high end. Especially when this high end is endless infinities higher.
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I am currently rewatching the last 4 GF episodes, given they seem to be the crux of this whole CRT.
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Did someone change the name of the crt?
Magicomethkuon
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Bill Cipher at it again
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With Iron Man it makes sense as it's an actual engine and he can shoot a beam from it his armor can take. Otherwise, you can't assume anything used to take power from it to power something else is the same as a engine or a power source that gives off the same power as the best stat they have. Yes, a real engine may do that ( ...with no 0 inefficiencies in the mechanical components of a machine and its engine so that they both get the same power... ), but you don't know that's the same in when simply seeing "something being used to power something else", that information is way too little, it's nothing. It needs to be proven that they get to have all of its power. All the other issues still remain.
I looked back at it. Dipper says that based on this on the journals, which may very well refer to Bill's weirdmageddon, as Ford depicts depicts it in the same way (Earth splits in 2, a crack on the ground with fire in it). I think it is very clear that the vagueness of how the writing didn't say that the portal would do that was used as a writing tool to mislead to the fact that it was actually Bill's power what would destroy the universe. Thing is, it doesn't matter, even if it was the portal Shacktron would still not scale to that for all the reasons given above. It would mean that I was wrong on a bit of what I said during that argument.“Our universe was not affected” while Dipper says it could destroy the entire universe
Yes I know he is a kid but he is listed as gifted in these supernatural stuff iirc
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To this CRT when Strym makes his counter args
GOOD LUCK
GOOD LUCK
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I had pinged Elizhaa at the first page, but now a summary may be in order.
Ayewale
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Being powered by a chaos emerald is not remotely comparable to reusing some unknown parts of a machine to create another machine. The arc reactor is also not remotely comparable since that’s a very clear cut “Iron Man is using the same power source for both”.
But you’re arguing that the end result scales to the materials that they were pulled from; actually even worse, that they scale to another machine that they pulled from. There’s nothing to ‘scale’ here, to give the Shacktron a tier based off material would require something FAR more specific than “we reused some of its parts for a power source”. The 'scaling' for the Shacktron here is so incredibly vague that it wouldn't even work for a possibly rating. I don't think even Death Battle would give the Shacktron 2-A based off 'portal scaling'
But who said it's being powered by infinity? Again, you're acting as if the scan for the Shacktron said it was 'powered by the portal' when it was 'we cannibalized some of the portals [wholly unspecified] parts to create a power source'. This is too vague to be used.
But who said it's being powered by infinity? Again, you're acting as if the scan for the Shacktron said it was 'powered by the portal' when it was 'we cannibalized some of the portals [wholly unspecified] parts to create a power source'. This is too vague to be used.
...You mean the Rift?
The Interdimensional Portal and the Interdimensional Rift are not the same thing. Bill's power/presence has nothing to do with the Portal, which is where the shaking feat actually comes from.
But said rips only occurred after the fact in a handful of universes, not the entirety of the multiverse? And when Blendin recalls the scenario, he said that Bill only 'destroyed the universe'. And that 'this dimension' is the subject of the sentence...etc etc. There's a lot more evidence he was referring to only Dimension 46, and there's none that points towards 2-A.
1. I'm more sympathetic to the idea.
2. See above.
3. What does this have to do with him shaking the multiverse?
4. This is like using a character destroying a city for proof of them being planetary (which is actually a pretty massive understatement). Like the rip affecting a handful of universes would (a) be in support of range and (b) if it did apply to AP, it'd be for...a High 3-A rating. Extrapolating it to 2-A is frankly ridiculous.
5. That's because your reason for it scaling doesn't work at all. The burden of proof is on you to prove it and the proof is very bad.
6. Being a threat to the multiverse doesn't really support him being 2-A at all because the word threat is far too vague for that. I said this already but Bill could be galaxy-level and still be a threat because the danger of Bill is in him wrecking havoc without consequence, traveling to universes at his leisure and them being eventually destroyed due to the nightmare realm, not Bill himself.
Ayewale
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I'll also apologize if I come off a bit arrogant, but 2-A Bill is pretty patently a lot of assumptions stacked on top of each other. At best this would be a Possibly rating, but I don't think it's "Possible", I think it's just "Unlikely". We don't index profiles according to their highest potential strength, we index them to a reasonable standard, and a lot of the assumptions behind 2-A Bill are extrapolating things to their highest possible degree (the Shacktron had some portal parts so it must be 2-A! The portal shook the Nightmare Realm, so the Rift must equal the portal, and Bill powers some of the Rift, which makes Bill 2-A!), which doesn't really feel fit for the wiki.
ShionAH
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- Thread starter
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I feel like Bill only being 3-A is just...very weird in the shows plot.
If he was really 3-A then Time Baby would have said "The very fabric of the universe" because they never use the word "existence"
We also have Ford saying Bill is a multiversal threat twice which on its own can be "Uhh he will conquer and cause chaos in universes" but since there are infinite universes Bill would not really be a threat to the multiverse.
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The rift is a portal, and it was also literally created from the original portal.
What that guy said.
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Ok, I think everyone should stop focusing on the shaktron being 2-A rn, the only think that it helps with is durability which shouldn't be the first priority. Hell imo this thread is being cluttered and confusing, would it be ok to set up multiple crt's focusing on different segements (a/p and speed, hax, durability)
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Many characters here scale to the engines/objects that power them even though it's not demonstrated what you said. You're just being picky with Bill and not seeing the most obvious and logical thing in the world, the portal produces a level of energy capable of shaking the universe/an infinite realm simply by activating (and it should be comparable to the rift, since the rift originated from the portal), if a machine is being powered by that, it must scale to that energy, or the machine would explode from not being able to handle that energy. You are saying that the Shacktron has a motor that when activated produces 3-A/Low 2-C/2-A energy but it only has it there as decoration.
At this point, I don't care if Bill is 3-A, Low 2-C, or 2-A, but that should definitely scale to his physical stats.
Oh, right, Bill said on two occasions that he had infinite power, on one of those occasions it was in a moment of frustration because his infinite power would not help him cross the barrier that prevented him from leaving the town, the other occasion was when he offered infinite power and a galaxy to Stan so that he wouldn't kill him (Bill should have the same power that he is capable of giving, obviously). It must be remembered that Bill had already given away galaxies before and it is not the first time that he claims to have infinite power, in addition to the fact that it is already accepted that Bill is sincere when offering deals, so Bill should at least be High 3-A.
Magicomethkuon
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Personally think we got enough for a Low 2-C rating, 2-A though not unless we give him every last benefit of the doubt and all the highest ends available, in spite of many reasons to believe otherwise and his showings not being even close to it. Making it worse, many of Bill's own statements often refer to an individual world instead of many, let alone an infinity of them. The reasons to believe he is a threat to one at a time thanks to his immortality and powers far outweigh reasons to believe that instead he is a threat of immediate collapse to all.
Once again, in the absence of conclusive evidence and doubt, the safe end is what stays.
Once again, in the absence of conclusive evidence and doubt, the safe end is what stays.
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Magicomethkuon
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Things can be powered by higher sources without scaling to their full potential, especially in fiction. Androids in DBZ aren't given High 3-A because they have an unlimited energy source in their core. He-Man is powered by Castle Grayskull but we don't give him the highest rating it has based on that statement and nothing else. For accurate indexing, we can and should not ignore a character's displays with a power source to look only at what the source is stated do with all of its output released at once, or we step deep into the territory of extrapolating. And the Shacktron has all of nothing to show on a scale that would make me think 2-A. Either no one in the show has or no one has posted it yet.
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Just saying, I'm in the Low 2-C, possibly 2-A boat lol
Magicomethkuon
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I agree whole-heartedly with the Low 2-C, at least
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Based
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Im also on the Low 2-C, Possibly 2-A boat
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