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Saint Seiya Complete Verse Overhual - Revenge of Tier 1 Upgrades -

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GarrixianXD said:
I mean, I think it looks good and the math doesn't seem that iffy but the results were different unlike the AvA thread I've created where most ppl agreed
Click to expand...
The way you just phrased that post asking if you should change your vote led me to the conclusion that you didn’t read the thread as carefully as you should have before agreeing to it.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
The way you just phrased that post asking if you should change your vote led me to the conclusion that you didn’t read the thread as carefully as you should have before agreeing to it.
Click to expand...
I did read it carefully but I didn't concisely analyze it; on the exterior and overall, I think it's fine.

I was unresolved by other people's arguments but not entirely reassured.
 
Can we start specifying what we’re disagreeing with?
There’s cosmological structures being proposed and scaling justifications in the blog. It seems everyone is just saying “I don’t see 1-A” but aren’t giving an opinion on the blog which is the bulk of the crt and isn’t even proposing a tier 😕
 
There’s no point in debating the tier if the cosmological structure being proposed that results in said tier isn’t accepted anyway…

can we go “hey yes the system by which the OP is arguing 1-A actually is in the verse” and then argue “ok, but is this actually 1-A?”

like the currently accepted cosmology for the verse is just a 2-A MWI thing from the anime, as it stands the verse has no cosmology blog and the anime and manga continuities were separated in the last CRT
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
I thought MWI was 2B?
Click to expand...
I think it depends on whether the universes in question have infinite size. If it's similar to our universe in size, then it's probably 2B because all possible permutations, while still giving some insane numbers, would only be finite. If the universe is infinite tho, then in theory should give infinite permutations so 2A.
 
Firestorm808 said:
What quote are you looking at?
Click to expand...
As Garrixian pointed out in a,previous post. Is that the reasoning for Low 1-A is the same as his thread for AvA which he saw as reasonable here. (Also it was accepted) The reasoning for Tier 1-A comes from a Low 1-A structure being transcended (via QS) in a variety of ways.

Bit also as Hasty pointed out. The blog is just a cosmology blog without placing a tier. This thread is meant to propose a tier. Then link the cosmology blog fir justification

1-A was a higher end

Another Lowe end that was proposed was 9D to 10D

Another Lower end is 7D to 8D.
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
As Garrixian pointed out in a,previous post. Is that the reasoning for Low 1-A is the same as his thread for AvA which he saw as reasonable here. (Also it was accepted) The reasoning for Tier 1-A comes from a Low 1-A structure being transcended (via QS) in a variety of ways.
Click to expand...
Garrixian is a she (about to get cancelled for misgendering RIP).
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
You might be able to claim Low 1-C with uncountable infinite universes but I’m not sure.
Click to expand...
True, that is a possibility but additionally we have the SDS (Super Dimensional Space) which exist purely as the gap that separates universes (which by default is 5D iirc) the SDS is also stated to have its own Space and Time, and it exist inside "The universe" which is a higher form of space and time. Then you apply reality fiction difference with the soul and consciousness from therr

There's also the recursion that every galaxy inside a universe is another universe which all universes have by default as I explained in blog
 
Last edited:
So I'm breaking down the "Possible Recursionary Universes" in the provided blog.
  • Universes in Saint Seiya could possibly be infinite recursions within each other. Where a Universe exist inside a Universe that Exist inside a Universe ad infinitum. This is never directly stated, but it is the way the Cosmology is shown.
    • Do we have an image of this many layers of a universe inside a universe infinite recurse to make such a claim?
  • For example, in Saint Seiya Next Dimension. The Kanji 星雲 (Galaxy) is used to describe different Universes.[16]
    • Images 1 and 2 come from Chapter 19
      • From the same chapter 19, I found this English translation of "all the nebulas that exist in the universe." It would be best to compare this with the original Japanese to confirm this distinction between Galaxy/Nebula and Universe.
    • Image 3 has no source chapter and no english scan for comparison. What is the context of this scan?
  • Another, and even better example, comes from Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho. This is where a "Galaxy"[17] was directly stated to be a "new universe."[18]
    • These come from Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho Chapter 80 and 81 and have no Japanese Scan to compare to the English scan. Can you provide them?
  • We also have drawings from the original Author, Masami Kurumada, where he himself drew "Galaxies" and directly stated within the manga that it was "A Universe."[19]
    • Do we have a quote of Masami Kurumada saying that he drew galaxies or are we just saying what he drew looks like one?
    • There is no Japanese Scan to compare to the English scan. Can you provide them?
  • Additionally, we have Virgo Shaka vs Virgo Shijiama. During their clash with each other they created a multiverse, and that entire multiverse was contained, and created, inside a singular "space" which was also called "Another Dimension."[20]
    • At the moment, these two are only accepted as Low 2-C at max power.
    • Can you please provide the Japanese scans to verify the English?
 
Last edited:
Firestorm808 said:
So I'm breaking down the "Possible Recursionary Universes" in the provided blog.
  • Universes in Saint Seiya could possibly be infinite recursions within each other. Where a Universe exist inside a Universe that Exist inside a Universe ad infinitum. This is never directly stated, but it is the way the Cosmology is shown.
    • Do we have an image of this many layers of a universe inside a universe infinite recurse to make such a claim?
  • For example, in Saint Seiya Next Dimension. The Kanji 星雲 (Galaxy) is used to describe different Universes.[16]
    • Images 1 and 2 come from Chapter 19
      • From the same chapter 19, I found this English translation of "all the nebulas that exist in the universe." It would be best to compare this with the original Japanese to confirm this distinction between Galaxy/Nebula and Universe.
    • Image 3 has no source chapter and no english scan for comparison. What is the context of this scan?
  • Another, and even better example, comes from Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho. This is where a "Galaxy"[17] was directly stated to be a "new universe."[18]
    • These come from Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho Chapter 80 and 81 and have no Japanese Scan to compare to the English scan. Can you provide them?
  • We also have drawings from the original Author, Masami Kurumada, where he himself drew "Galaxies" and directly stated within the manga that it was "A Universe."[19]
    • Do we have a quote of Masami Kurumada saying that he drew galaxies or are we just saying what he drew looks like one.
    • There is no Japanese Scan to compare to the English scan. Can you provide them?
  • Additionally, we have Virgo Shaka vs Virgo Shijiama. During their clash with each other they created a multiverse, and that entire multiverse was contained, and created, inside a singular "space" which was also called "Another Dimension."[20]
    • At the moment, these two are only accepted as Low 2-C at max power.
    • Can you please provide the Japanese scans to verify the English?
Click to expand...
i got some IRL stuff to do today might take a moment for me to get back to this.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Universe that Exist inside a Universe ad infinitum. This is never directly stated, but it is the way the Cosmology is shown.
  • Do we have an image of this many layers of a universe inside a universe infinite recurse to make such a claim?
Click to expand...
I believe so. Or at least something close. In next dimension, it’s stated that all the nebula/galaxies in the universe are their own dimensions/alternate Timelines, which you can access with the door of space and time on earth. logically, those Should have their own galaxies/nebulas, and doors of space and time.
Firestorm808 said:
From the same chapter 19, I found this English translation of "all the nebulas that exist in the universe." It would be best to compare this with the original Japanese to confirm this distinction between Galaxy/Nebula and Universe.
Click to expand...
if you further read the chapter, Chronos states that those nebulas are dimensions explicitly. And it’s very clear he’s referring to universes when he says dimensions, because by entering the nebulas, you can travel to other timelines.
Firestorm808 said:
At the moment, these two are only accepted as Low 2-C at max power.
Click to expand...
This makes sense, since they did it by repeatedly spamming abilities to manifest universes over and over, they didn’t do it all at once
 
Ovy7 said:
I think it depends on whether the universes in question have infinite size. If it's similar to our universe in size, then it's probably 2B because all possible permutations, while still giving some insane numbers, would only be finite. If the universe is infinite tho, then in theory should give infinite permutations so 2A.
Click to expand...
There’s straight up statements of infinite presents, and infinite future branches. 2-A seems definite to me.
 
Firestorm808 said:
So I'm breaking down the "Possible Recursionary Universes" in the provided blog.
  • Universes in Saint Seiya could possibly be infinite recursions within each other. Where a Universe exist inside a Universe that Exist inside a Universe ad infinitum. This is never directly stated, but it is the way the Cosmology is shown.
    • Do we have an image of this many layers of a universe inside a universe infinite recurse to make such a claim?
  • For example, in Saint Seiya Next Dimension. The Kanji 星雲 (Galaxy) is used to describe different Universes.[16]
    • Images 1 and 2 come from Chapter 19
      • From the same chapter 19, I found this English translation of "all the nebulas that exist in the universe." It would be best to compare this with the original Japanese to confirm this distinction between Galaxy/Nebula and Universe.
    • Image 3 has no source chapter and no english scan for comparison. What is the context of this scan?
  • Another, and even better example, comes from Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho. This is where a "Galaxy"[17] was directly stated to be a "new universe."[18]
    • These come from Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho Chapter 80 and 81 and have no Japanese Scan to compare to the English scan. Can you provide them?
  • We also have drawings from the original Author, Masami Kurumada, where he himself drew "Galaxies" and directly stated within the manga that it was "A Universe."[19]
    • Do we have a quote of Masami Kurumada saying that he drew galaxies or are we just saying what he drew looks like one.
    • There is no Japanese Scan to compare to the English scan. Can you provide them?
  • Additionally, we have Virgo Shaka vs Virgo Shijiama. During their clash with each other they created a multiverse, and that entire multiverse was contained, and created, inside a singular "space" which was also called "Another Dimension."[20]
    • At the moment, these two are only accepted as Low 2-C at max power.
    • Can you please provide the Japanese scans to verify the English?
Click to expand...
I wanted to break these down in quote boxes, but uuhh the coding looked messing lol

Do we have an image of this many layers of a universe inside a universe infinite recurse to make such a claim?
Click to expand...
im not exactly sure what your asking, but if its what I'm thinking it is. Yes, we are shown a recursion is happening. The best example is Saint Seiya: Next Dimension.

However, to understand it better, it's important to know that Galaxies are being used to represent whole Universes.

to start this off, it would be best to use the colored version of Saint Seiya Next Dimension, its easier to see.

The english translations are mostly accurate, except for one part where they use "Nebulas" but "galaxies" is more accurate here.



This at first may not seem like "universes" but we are told that "If Athena, or Shun were too "put even one foot into another galaxy they would find themselves in a different future or a different past." we get elaboration on them being whole Universes later, and more details on "Different future" or "Different past. " also gets elaborated on later. For example, Athena is stated to be "Coming from a far away spacetime." We also learned in the far more recent chapter, far later into the story, that the Timeline of "The Past," "The Present," and "The Future" are different timelines. the kanji 時間軸 is used which can mean "Different time axis" or "Timeline." Timeline appears more fitting given the context.

The "Infinite part" comes from the Episode G Triology where we are explictily stated that "Univereses exist inside Universes."



That gets reiterated again in Saintia Sho



Which "Future" for both of those scans gets elaborated on in Saint Seiya The Lost Canvas Gaidens as being "Infinite"



In Saint Seiya Requiem (part of the Episode G triology, the 3rd installements) Although, 多次元 was translated into 'infinite multiverse" by a couple translators. Some Translators got "Infinite multidimensional Universe." which "Dimensions" is what parallel worlds are commonly called in Saint Seiya Terminologies so its basically saying an infinite recursion of universes by using a specific terminology.

Also by default, doesn't the wiki assume "Universes" have Galaxies therefore what needs to be done is prove that Galaxies are universes? Thus infinite recursion by the wikis default assumptions that is assuming Galaxies being universes are accepted.


From the same chapter 19, I found this English translation of "all the nebulas that exist in the universe." It would be best to compare this with the original Japanese to confirm this distinction between Galaxy/Nebula and Universe.
Click to expand...

They are visually galaxies because Kurumada draws them all the same

here is a collection of instances of that throughout the series





Image 3 has no source chapter and no english scan for comparison. What is the context of this scan?
Click to expand...

Sorry about that.. I didn't' realize it wasn't source, i'll fix that.

its from Saint Seiya Saintia Sho chapter 80, context is that the "galaxy" she sees is a new universe that Eris created to trap Shoko in.

assuming were talking about the same thing here... Image 3 has no english scan for comparison? Are you talking about this one?




Do we have a quote of Masami Kurumada saying that he drew galaxies or are we just saying what he drew looks like one.
Click to expand...

both, in the original series he straight up called what he drew "A universe" and never called them "Galaxies"

additionally, we do have a statement from Kurumada that he thinks deeply about his "Dialouge" choices and he basically says "he means what he says.

31) You also seem to pay a lot of attention to character lines

Kurumada: I aim to reduce replicas of a word or line in speech bubbles. As this is a manga, I try to express things as much as possible through drawing.

32) Being concise is more difficult than making many lines, isn't it?

Kurumada: Since this is entertainment, ease of reading is essential. And then, more than long explanatory lines, I think that short lines have a greater impact and are more classy.

Interviews/RED201402/RED Champion Masami Kurumada 40 ans — SaintSeiyaPedia

www.saintseiyapedia.com www.saintseiyapedia.com
Click to expand...




But
There is no Japanese Scan to compare to the English scan. Can you provide them?
Click to expand...

Were you looking for this one?




At the moment, these two are only accepted as Low 2-C at max power.
Click to expand...

yeah that will get revised later, but also at the same time it wasn't so much their power doing it but it is a simple chain reaction from the collision of their attacks. but that isn't important. whats important is their attack created a "Dimension" and "Space" that contained a multiverse and its destruction which helps support Recursion of Universes

here are those raws






hopefully i adequately answered everything
 
Lonkitt said:
Maybe I’m missing something, but I’m not seeing any of the groundwork in the OP for Tier 1 arguments. A lot of big things are being said, but there’s not a layout for me to really accept anything being suggested
Click to expand...
There's quiet a few ground works for Tier 1

From the universe being an infinite recursion so there's possibly infinite dimensions

To as low as

Uncountably infinite universes (perhaps several of those)

To

Hypertimeline logic

To

All coordinates in a spacetime continuum creating an infinite multiverse thus creating a low 1-A space
 
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