Okay thats fair.
Warping space and time on earth in a specific way gets you to his location.
They are all actual physical universes. I guess that Russian egg analogy works
Wouldn't the Russian egg be an infinite recursion?
You can look that information up on any Japanese dictionary with example sentences used in real life to verify that information.
Right, these nebulas are just portals for time travel, not literal universes.
The people who checked it literally say the same universe… which agrees with my experience with this translation and Okada’s later treatment of the universeYou can look that information up on any Japanese dictionary with example sentences used in real life to verify that information.
It would be interesting to see their reasoning for that, because I asked some Japanese users too, and was told it's worded exactly that way, though that depending on context, the phrase "have the same universe" could be taken either way between identical different universes (like when someone says two individuals have the same face or something like that) or that, which well, no shit. In any case, by no means is it worded as saying "within the same universe" like you're saying.
The context here
<Run of the mill alternate universe plot
<Shura's talking about how the future at some point down the line of the world he came differs from that of his world (hence the concept of an identical universe with a different future)
<The series uses universe in the most standard way possible
<Parallel worlds are by definition and nature are different universes by default
Yeah, it seems clear to me it's a lot more sound to take this for what it is, which is that parallel worlds are similar but different universes, as opposed to some really weird interpretation like "actually this just means literal different universes by every metric and standard are considered the same universe" that also goes against how universe is clearly used by the entire series.
Right, these nebulas are just portals for time travel, not literal universes.
地上における時空の扉 "space-time gates on Earth
扉 literally means door;gate
We can even see that they're verbatim called doorways/gates of time.
I don't know what experience you had, the most direct raw translation would be "have the same universe", which is a reference to having identical universes (as the word used often means), such as saying two people have the same face or something like that. If you read the thread I sent, they literally say it could be either and that it depends on the context, which I gave several reasons as to why same universe in the sense of identical universes makes much more sense. Using "have the same" instead of "within the same" completely changes the meaning.
No he doesn't, and the only way one can even come to a conclusion like that is through hoops of circular reasoning and confirmation bias. A universe means a universe. This is literally Saint Seiya which sticks to that more than most other series.
Nice use of emotive language, but you're incorrect. Universe doesn't mean universe as far as a standard universe is concerned, Okada makes this very clear with his language. There's no circular reasoning, feel free to layout the logic for me, prove to me and everyone that it is circular outside your disbelief.
Yes it does, basic reading comprehension skills would allow one to realize the mere differentiation between the terms "parallel worlds" and "universe" would be indicative they're not the same thing, and this is consistent throughout all of GA and GR.
later on he's proven right...
No he doesn't. I've already proven my case through the scene with Shiryu and Shura, or you know, the entire run of the series, and you've hit it with a "trust me bro he uses it this way later" without actually explaining how and where, I just know know that whatever that gets cited won't amount to more than that.
Except he's not differentiating anything in the first place, he tacks the "parallel world" label to the "identical universe that lead to a different future" observation he's made.
Way to completely miss the point and say something irrelevant to try and poison the well for the umpteenth time, not my problem shit keeps going over your head. The issue is what "universe" is understood to be at that point by the characters conversing and the series they're in, and how they're using it.
Which you've painfully misinterpreted, your own translators don't even support your interpretation.
be more specific, which series?
in the blog
The term universe is utterly redundant in this interpretation, however, Okada distinguishes the two terms and never in the history of G from this scan on are "universes" and "parallel worlds"/"dimensions" ever used interchangeably with the "universe" always being treated as a larger object either literally or in ambition as pertaining to a characters goal(s).
so I've noticed you've called my side out for using "circular logic" and yet, when asked for you layout the logic path and demonstrate its circular you just repeated your last 3 comments with extra word salad. Prove we're using circular logic.
They don't support or go against any interpretation, just a neutral confirmation that it could be either or, already discernible from the Japanese dictionaries that cover this word.
Saint Seiya.
Which part? The only other relevant information there is about some stuff in Next Dimension, which has already been addressed above as simply being time travel portals.
[10] says that she's coming from across space-time, in reference to her time travelling to the past.
Universe here was in reference to the makeup of the world (context is Shura noticing his world and the world he came are similar while having different futures at some point), and parallel world is used to define similar worlds that end up with different futures.
What exactly am I supposed to lay out when your "point" literally has no sort of elaboration or citation? I literally just said above whatever gets cited won't amount to more than that, because there is no scene that indicates "universe" refers to anything more than what the word means, it's really not that complicated. As for the points in the blog, they were mostly misinterpretations stemming from left out context.
Try and go a single post without a contradiction challenge: impossible.
except Shura already defined Universe to be an object which holds these parallel worlds.
never said that, no one has ever said that.
contradicted in GR and every other mention of dimension and world in G, not that Dohko's statement alone proves worlds > universes.
contradicted again, the Primordials created all the atoms, not the Big Bang. Marin is not more reliable than Uranus.
except, it is and GR proves it by calling the universe "multi-dimensional" (I want to point out there contextual use of dimension within the manga is very consistently "timeline", not spatial dimensions at all if that wasn't clear).
Where is "there may" coming from? I can't in any way find any indication based on the kanji you yourself provided have any indication of hesitance. Ithink you're the one who's fallen victim to confirmation bias...
no you haven't, in-fact, you've flat out ignored most context, added you own words to translations that goes beyond "naturalizing the sentence" and straight up changing the whole tone and verbiage of the statement.
Only when you come up with interpretations contradicted by the manga.
when you can't in anyway show or prove either.
I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure where the whole "galaxies are universes" thing comes from
I have proven that there us a higher spatial and temporal dimension.
No you can't, low 1-C is literally defined as 1 level of infinity greater than low 2-C and the continuum hypothesis is literally an axiom that underpins the whole tiering system, inf^inf we take to be aleph 1, which is 1 level of infinity above 2-A.
Interesting! If I had a nickel for when a series features celestial themed warriors warping through space and time to reach a door of spacetime guarded by chronos, I would have two nickels!!
Can you post the scan of shiryu?
I'll give give ya a solid response later. Going to work atm
Eh no, infinite^infinite is uncountable infinite, which is Aleph-1, which is Low 1-C, since this is uncountable infinite amount of 4d space-time universes
Former. Still are.
thought so but then I saw Alien X was low 1-C and wasn't sure
Oh damn, sorry, typed "^" instead of "*"
No, what Shura words it the other way around, saying that the world holds the universe. Again, "has the same universe" has a completely different meaning to "within the same universe."
And again you let the point go over your head, the issue is how world and universe are distinguished, and world is literally mentioned after as he goes up in scale (which goes completely against the idea that the universe holds worlds within it, it's completely redundant to even mention worlds at that point when he'd already mentioned universe, which according to this interpretation contains worlds as a subset within it).
I know it doesn't literally say "there may", that's why I didn't even write that the earlier times I quoted that with the scan itself. But as you said, as far as naturalizing the sentence, it's the best translation to fully convey what he means, because at that point, even if it was confirmed later, he admits he has no proof of what he's saying right after and was just speculating. Verbatim may have been the slightest exaggeration, but moreso is freaking out for no reason as if something different was conveyed to what he actually meant, when it just makes the meaning clearer.
When you still haven't proven or remotely substantiated the claim that Okada later uses singular "universe" on its own to refer to the multiverse to give anything to prove in the first place.
Could you explain which scan you are getting this from?
The earlier scans in the thread that call them parallel worlds.
I looked for the word "uncountably" and "uncountable" in the blog and didn't find it. How was that conclusion reached?
No.
“Them” refers to worlds that exist in the same world. Those worlds are indeed parallel to each other, they are like “sibling” worlds. But they arent Stated to be parallel to their “parent” world, nor is it implied
These aren’t even arguments and you literally just admitted to altering translations imposing your own interpretation onto the text that simply isn’t supported.No, what Shura words it the other way around, saying that the world holds the universe. Again, "has the same universe" has a completely different meaning to "within the same universe."
That's what the blog literally says.
And again you let the point go over your head, the issue is how world and universe are distinguished, and world is literally mentioned after as he goes up in scale (which goes completely against the idea that the universe holds worlds within it, it's completely redundant to even mention worlds at that point when he'd already mentioned universe, which according to this interpretation contains worlds as a subset within it).
Not the same, U7 is a proper noun (just as how North Galaxy is a proper noun while DB still retains the standard usage of galaxy as opposed to it always meaning 1/4 of the universe) and a name given to the macrocosm system which is already established to be made of places distinguished from the literal "universe" itself. This here is an attempt to redefine what "universe" itself as a general term means.
Dimension has a lot of nuance and multiple possible meanings as a word. That offhand one liner doesn't have a modicum of further elaboration or explanation as to what it's referring to conclusively say it's about timelines, or any other context whatsoever. Although it seems that it would confirm that Okada obviously understands that "universe" on its own does not equate to multiple dimensions, otherwise a term like that would be completely redundant.
The usage of "multiverse" (which is literally just multiple universes) to combine individual worlds and universes makes no sense if "universe" also means the or a multiverse. Again, if you just look at the context of that conversation, Shiryu and Dohko are clearly talking as though "world" entails a single timeline and a singular alternate counterpart (no shit), and in said conversation, world>universe.
Dohko also saying that from his POV the world was everything that existed further proves the point of world>universe even while meaning one timeline, and this also goes back to the issue noted earlier about how universe is used in Shura and Shiryu's conversation in relation to what the characters understand "universe" to be (especially for Shiryu).
And the primordials claiming to create atoms doesn't contradict anything, the Big Bang is mentioned in Episode G too. Until further notice, this just means they're behind the Big Bang. Neither does that contradict Marin making it clear Saint Seiya doesn't use universe any differently from how it's supposed to be used.
I know it doesn't literally say "there may", that's why I didn't even write that the earlier times I quoted that with the scan itself. But as you said, as far as naturalizing the sentence, it's the best translation to fully convey what he means, because at that point, even if it was confirmed later, he admits he has no proof of what he's saying right after and was just speculating. Verbatim may have been the slightest exaggeration, but moreso is freaking out for no reason as if something different was conveyed to what he actually meant, when it just makes the meaning clearer.
When you still haven't proven or remotely substantiated the claim that Okada later uses singular "universe" on its own to refer to the multiverse to give anything to prove in the first place.
Nope, I literally already gave the exact wording and entire Japanese typeset along with the scan exactly how it was as my very first post, what you're saying makes 0 sense.
He's explaining the structure of the multiverse and it's constituents, where his dialogue makes it clear that multiverse>world>universe, and it goes as far as him mentioning worlds after mentioning universes, which completely debunks the absolutely nonsensical notion of "universe" actually referring to what are multiple other universes by every metric, and parallel worlds being contained within a single one.
It is. You don't have a modicum of context to say that's conclusively referring to different timelines or what sort of dimensions it's referring to. It's literally a completely offhand throwaway one liner. The one thing we can discern from a phrase like "multi dimensional universe" is that it's further proof that Saint Seiya doesn't understand simply "universe" on it's own in some weird way from it's universally established definition as referring to a multiverse (multiple dimensions) as was being claimed.
Fine by me, and likewise.
He makes no claim as to the structure of the universes in relation to worlds, that's a blatant lie.
He distinguishes them and mentions worlds after already mentioning universe. It's rudimentary reading comprehension to understand that this would be completely redundant and ridiculous if your theory that a universe already contains worlds were true (and even in that scene, Shiryu and Dohko are clearly referring to singular parallel timelines when talking about their respective worlds and memories), and this also makes sense with Shura's wording being "worlds holding universes", the literal opposite of a universe containing a world.
That's right, there is no context that explains what exactly was meant there and it is a throwaway line of a term never brought up or remotely elaborated again, is it not? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with redundantly scan dumping unrelated scenes with different, actually explained contexts to them for the usage of dimension, as no one said dimension can't refer to timelines. The issue is it's not exclusive to that, neither in Saint Seiya or in general. Nothing you posted is any sort of conclusive evidence or new context as to what the specific throwaway line with no further elaboration meant.
Machine translating what he said, he’s just saying when he tried to explain it, his friend cut him off.
the second quote seems to actually confirm some kind of layered universes. The above Person says he imagines it as Mille Feuille or pie crust. And the response is, “Mille-feuille... ah, the close-knit doughs overlapping each other in their own dimensions to form a universe...” Mille feuille is a multi layered pastry, which translates roughly to thousand sheets. There’s nothing to me that shows he doesn’t understand it. Unless I’m missing something?
