Dc cosmology upgrade: Revenge of the sith

[Tiktime]

That was from the beginning a metaphor for the depiction R>F level of reality, the level of reality reflects a dream/idea of the people. it can be seen in this scan that all members the doom patrol are in the surrealist level of painting, sleepwalk says that the level is the world of the fifth horseman that she dreams of. the next panel also reinforces the reflection of the level of reality where each new level provides something else that is needed by utilizing the power of ideas.

This is similar to the interconnection from Animal Man where the universe is vast and interconnected where every part contains the whole. Where the universe is a mirror reflecting itself.

The fact that this is a metaphor and an idea does not prove that there is no R>F. It just shows that different levels of reality have different natures, some are metaphorical, some are not. Yes, even the reflection of reality does not say that there is no R >F on the contrary, it says that the reflection of the universe is a whole reality in itself

 

[Deagonx]

You contradict yourself by first splits the cosmologies of the authors

This is a key misunderstanding, the cosmologies are not split by author, they are split by continuity. They have the appearance prima facie of being split by author because largely these cosmological continuities are dictated by a single/principal author but that is not always the case and it is not the defining criteria.

 

[PrinceStories]

The fact that this is a metaphor and an idea does not prove that there is no R>F. It just shows that different levels of reality have different natures, some are metaphorical, some are not. Yes, even the reflection of reality does not say that there is no R >F on the contrary, it says that the reflection of the universe is a whole reality in itself

I don't know what you mean but i'm just saying that's only a metaphor to ilustrate R>F, not that there is no R>F.

 

[PrinceStories]

And however what Deagonx said is true, that if 90s Doom Patrol cosmology can't have its own page.

 

[Brahmatman]

This is a key misunderstanding, the cosmologies are not split by author, they are split by continuity. They have the appearance prima facie of being split by author because largely these cosmological continuities are dictated by a single/principal author but that is not always the case and it is not the defining criteria.

And what does the Patrol comic contradict? Why then are they not allowed to insert comics by other authors that do not contradict this cosmology? Justice League and its events appeared in Doom Patrol, what does this contradict?

 

[Deagonx]

And what does the Patrol comic contradict? Why then are they not allowed to insert comics by other authors that do not contradict this cosmology? Justice League and its events appeared in Doom Patrol, what does this contradict?

The approach is more the opposite. It is not my burden to prove a contradiction, it is on you to prove a connection. The mere presence of characters doesn't justify a connection. Dream appears both in Gaiman's Sandman works and briefly in Tynion's works, but one is concretely connected to the Sandman/Vertigo cosmology and one is concretely connected to the Crisis Cosmology, because the issues in which Dream appeared is a part of a crucial storyline that ties into the main cosmology.

This is why Animal Man was not incorporated into any of the cosmologies, because it has little to no connection to any of them. Limbo was retained in Crisis Cosmology, but the vast majority of the other concepts introduced in Animal Man by Morrison and the later authors who took over the run were completely abandoned after Animal Man. It would be erroneous to scale characters like Perpetua to "the imaginal worlds" or "the life web" because she has no actual connection to them and they cannot be considered an authentic part of the cosmology she inhabits.

 

[Brahmatman]

The approach is more the opposite. It is not my burden to prove a contradiction, it is on you to prove a connection. The mere presence of characters doesn't justify a connection. Dream appears both in Gaiman's Sandman works and briefly in Tynion's works, but one is concretely connected to the Sandman/Vertigo cosmology and one is concretely connected to the Crisis Cosmology, because the issues in which Dream appeared is a part of a crucial storyline that ties into the main cosmology.

Their presence or references to the works in which they participate already prove the connection that this is one and the same character and their cosmologies are connected. This is the main criterion for the connectedness of the works with each other, the location of the characters in the same universe.

This is why Animal Man was not incorporated into any of the cosmologies, because it has little to no connection to any of them. Limbo was retained in Crisis Cosmology, but the vast majority of the other concepts introduced in Animal Man by Morrison and the later authors who took over the run were completely abandoned after Animal Man. It would be erroneous to scale characters like Perpetua to "the imaginal worlds" or "the life web" because she has no actual connection to them and they cannot be considered an authentic part of the cosmology she inhabits.

Has it been stated somewhere that his comics are not canon to the rest of the multiverse? Please send it, I will be interested to read about it. If a thing was shown once in a comic, this in no way denies its existence in subsequent comics. If you want to say that the Beyonder doesn't have infinite dimensions because it wasn't shown in subsequent comics? Of course you will deny and make excuses that this has nothing to do with him, and in general this is another thing, special, and only Dc relates to this? What is the connection between Perputua and this? She lives on a higher level of existence

 

[Deagonx]

We aren't going to turn this into an argument about the cosmology split. I understand that you are ardently opposed to it, but this conversation will just go in circles.

 

[Trigger]

Yeah, but we don't have profiles for them.

Well let's make it then.

 

[Omnificence]

This couldn't upgrade any of the existing cosmologies.

Agree, it should be its own thing.

I'm starting to think... Would it be better if we made different keys for the DC profiles based upon certain cosmologies?

 

[Deagonx]

I'm starting to think... Would it be better if we made different keys for the DC profiles based upon certain cosmologies?

The vast majority of the characters that scale to cosmologies only scale to one.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity @Elizio33

All right. It took me a while to get to this, but let me see if I can respond to the most important bits.

Black book:

Reality is only a shadow of Orqwith, absorbing entire realities into itself, and having no boundaries

1-A for superiority over universe recursion

Orqwith is a transcendent plane of existence? This is a pretty far-fetched interpretation, to say the least.
In Doom Patrol volume 2, the black book was a meta-fictional text describing memetic theory, which is the philosophy that memes (cultural ideas and behaviors) spread and evolve throughout societies in the same way genes spread biological traits. The world-city of Orqwith mentioned inside the book, which is an intersecting plane neighboring earth's universe, embodied memetic theory in a warped way: parasitic information that would consume the rest of existence.

Notice how in the last panels, the Doom Patrol is questioning if the Black Book is real, or not? They conclude that the book is the gateway between reality and unreality, and the world of Orqwith escaped fiction to consume its own creators. That's why in this issue and the one before it, different people around the world witnessed fictional entities coming to life and devouring people into space-timeless husks of themselves.

As for the "Orqwith has no boundaries" statement, that's not describing anything like "the multiversedoesn't limit it since it transcends everything." It was just meant to detail how Orqwith expands infinitely in all directions.

So yeah... seeing as Orqwith was stated to be an unreality invading the real world, and exist as fundamentally less complex than the real world due to its unreal nature (which means the rest of existence has literal R>F over it), and becoming "one with it" is equivalent to becoming a space-timeless existence, it's more likely to be zero-dimensional or tier 11 than outerverse level.

Recursive painting:

There is an infinite recursive artistic painting containing at each of the infinite levels the same painting, which continues the recursion to infinity.

Each level of the recursive painting has its own space and time

Each higher level views the lower one as an ordinary picture, and relative to the higher level you become flat and unreal

The fifth horseman can influence the structure of the picture, climbing up the levels of its endless recursion, breaking out into the universe, and subsequently destroying it, leaving behind a void that will destroy itself

1-B high for infinite qualitative recursion, in which each higher level sees the previous one as a picture, and low 1-A for superiority over the painting

The first thing I wanted to point out is that the painting was constructed by a random dedicated artist. Not that I like appealing to incredulity, but it's a little hard to believe that some random painting from some random DC human being depicted in less than several issues of an old storyline justifies a High 1-B cosmology.

Secondly, I wanted to save this point (the largest flaw in the argument) for the end, but I might as well introduce it right now. This painting was never stated to encompass higher realities. It was stated to extend downwards endlessly into deeper realities. It's not like the regular universe was depicted as another layer of the series of paintings either. The antagonist called the fifth horseman was described as rising through levels of the painting into the main universe, with the main universe being the "real world" which transcended the whole painting, and the city of Paris's realease from the painting being akin to getting vomited back into reality. This means that even if we were to interpret levels of the painting as having a relationship of qualitative superiority towards each other, this painting is ultimately invalid as it's a downwards hierarchy.

"How far down does this thing go?"

"How far down are we? How deep into the structure?"

"It's infinite. It goes down forever and..."

"It's rising through the levels torwards the real world."

"When the rider grows strong enough to break out of the painting and into the real world, it will extinguish everything."

"They're through into the Dada world! Our world!"

"We're all that stands between this thing and the world!"

"Are we out?" "Like pigs from a gun." "And Paris too?" "Vomited back into reality."

Think about it like this: the continuum hypothesis asserts that 2^Aleph-0=Aleph-1; something raised to the power of infinity is a higher infinity. In other words, a hierarchy that qualifies for infinite higher levels of infinity would be like imposing [Infinity^Infinity^Infinity ad infinitum] on our 3 dimensional world. Since the painting is quantitatively inferior to the universe however, the size of this hierarchy would be like multiplying our 3 dimensional world by the reciprocal of that: [1/∞^∞^∞ ad infinitum]. Once again, this is a literal tier 11 structure being argued as High 1-B/1-A.

Recursion of Universes:

Universes multiply according to the principle of endless nesting dolls, multiplying in the form of particles, representing a virtual universe for subsequent

Infinite recursion low 1-A

Recursive universes would need to multiple at a rate of Infinity^Infinity^Infinity... uncountably infinitely many times over to gain Low 1-A. The vast majority of "recursive timelines" and "infinitely expanding multiverses" we see in CRT's don't so much as qualify for an Infinity^Infinity quantity (to be specific, a Low 1-C number of timelines would typically require a timeline for each infinitesimal moment, or like I said, an expansion rate than can be understood as Infinity^Infinity).

 

[Duedate8898]

There was a request to close this CRT, locking now